A little history since this is my first post.

I have been diagnosed Bi polar, general anxiety disorder, depressed, alcoholic, and now ADHD.

I know I have been ADHD all my life and I feel like I was self medicating to overcome my shortcomings.

Despite all these diagnosis, I am relatively successful. I am 30 years old, have a great job making a great income, nice house, a great girlfriend, and am continuing my education by working on my masters degree.

There is only one thing missing, my ability to have feelings, especially love. I know in my head that I love my son, my parents, and my girlfriend, but I dont feel love. The same thing goes for empathy or compassion.

I have no idea what diagnosis is correct. As of now I am taking Adderral and Kolonopin . Addy gives me great focus at work, Klonopin- Im not sure of yet. I have been on Lexapro, Zoloft, Wellbutrin, and Prozac in the past.

I just still feel like the guy I used to be when I was 18-21 is still inside me somewhere. That guy had feelings and emotions and felt it. Today all I express in anger and frustration.

What do I need? More therapy, different medication, somebody throw something out to me. The is the most open and honest I have ever been and I could use some direction. Let me know if there is more you need to know.

-Bmore

I would suggest therapy. Another thing may be to look for sites that have detailed descriptions of Depression, Antisocial Personality Disorder or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and see a doctor or therapist. Those are the only three that I can think of that may be what could contribute to how you feel. I know how you feel though, I have sort of the same problem, with me I feel love empathy and compassion rarely, it seems to be there every now and then but rarely. It is good that you feel comfortable being honest.

Do you think you can find a way to celebrate your apathy? It's a wonderful, desirable state to attain, according to some cultures. Here's a link to a discussion on this very point.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49118&highlight=apathy

I have displaced emotions. Like I have an overwhelming feeling watching a football game, really too much emotion involved. Then my girlfriend will want to talk and I am completely disinterested.

The funny thing is that people that know me at work think I am hard working, intelligent, driven, a good boss, even caring towards my employees.

But in my personal life something is missing. Its almost like I had my heart broken in high school and it never recovered. I have become cold and ambivalant. The worse part about all this is that I recognize it and still cant fix it.

Anyone have experience with therapy that works? The last guy I saw was a cognitive behaviorist, I think/know I have some deeper issues that need to be drawn out. What type of consoling should I seek?

Do you think you can find a way to celebrate your apathy? It's a wonderful, desirable state to attain, according to some cultures. Here's a link to a discussion on this very point.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49118&highlight=apathy



Where does apathy meet ego? One of my problems is that I feel superior to others (lack of self confidence), which clashes with apathy. Now I am covering up my defense mechanism.......boy, I'm a mess :)

Are you saying that since you began taking medication you are not feeling emotions in the same way that you used to?

I have found this true for myself. I used to be emotionally all over the map, on the inside, but didn't express it outwardly (at least I that's what I told myself). After taking Ritalin I'm more in control of my emotions, something I had never experienced before, and in fact found the feeling so shocking that for a while I thought I had lost the ability to feel anything. I felt like Spock or in some way, hyper logical, floating above my feelings - if that makes any sense. This was just an adjustment to the medication. After a while I found that I could reason through my emotions much better, discarding things like feeling overly sad at a stupid television show, or getting angry at someones bad driving. On the hand if I felt happy, or silly I could just be comfortable with that and let it happen.

By the way I used to have that feeling of self-superiority as well, but I luckily came to terms with it before I ever was diagnosed with ADD. Like you said it came from a feeling of lack of self confidence, so as defensive mechanism to keep me from being dragged down in my own negativity, I would just externalize all those feelings onto other people, that they were useless, or stupid, etc... not good for the old social skills since, as I know now, most people are damn bright, and if I'm thinking it, they certainly are to.

Where does apathy meet ego? One of my problems is that I feel superior to others (lack of self confidence), which clashes with apathy. Now I am covering up my defense mechanism.......boy, I'm a mess :)

Where does apathy meet ego? What does that mean. Apathy means not feeling, you can have a sense of self.

And I totally don't get how not having self confidence makes you feel superior to others, nor how that clashes with your apathy. And since you were concerned about your being apathetic, does that make this all a good thing in your mind?

I'm so confused.

Where does apathy meet ego? One of my problems is that I feel superior to others (lack of self confidence), which clashes with apathy. Now I am covering up my defense mechanism.......boy, I'm a mess :)

Antisocial Personality Disorder descriptions on like Wikipedia for example are detailed. I don't know and I am not a doctor but it sounds like you are describing that.

I dunno. Most people with antisocial personality disorder aren't worried about how they feel because they are busy blaming everyone else for their problems, so there's not the sense of that here.

You sound more cut off from your own feelings. If you indicated having your heart broken in high school, or when you were younger, you may have made an internal vow not to ever let yourself feel that pain again. If that pain came from love and connection, then it's love and connection that you have distanced yourself from. After a while, all the joy in life is sucked out with it, because the ability to feel joy is intimately tied to the vulnerability of loss. My daughter and husband are my joy in life, and could be taken from me in an instant. But instead of loving them less, I try to love them with all my heart -- because I don't want to regret ANYTHING if they should die, or something should happen.

But this comes after a long healing and spiritual connection to my God and a lot of other stuff.

Hope that helps. The only thing that heals it is breaking the vow. This took lotsa therapy and very loving friends for me.

I dunno. Most people with antisocial personality disorder aren't worried about how they feel because they are busy blaming everyone else for their problems, so there's not the sense of that here.


I have been diagnosed with ASPD since I was 18 and I personally do not blame anyone for my problems, I just find a way out. I am however, indifferent to compassion, empathy, false feelings of superiority(not always when manic). People have a false perception on what ASPD even is and that is sort of why I am personally directing him somewhere so he can see if it hits home or not. Nobody here really knows so I am offering a possibility.

Another thing I would like to add is that sometimes I do feel these emotions, I have fallen in love before, felt guilty before, I feel extreme empathy for animals when they suffer, I am an avid animal lover, I am not a criminal or anything, I am in school, I rarely lie anymore (I was close to pathological at one point in my life) I don't prey on people, I just have to deceive people when it comes to expressing certain emotions (empathy, shame, remorse, guilt sometimes) and it is exhausting to have to do that. I am becoming less self serving, I engage in prosocial behavior (helping others, volunteer work donating etc.) and most of the time I hate it but I do it because it is recommended in therapy. I still try to take the easy way out of things, get in relationships with people that are prone to liking you and trusting you too fast rather than taking the time make friends with healthy people (it backfires in those situations, because they expect too much and I disappoint them because I often don't 'care' enough to hear them in their recurrent crisis). I don't judge myself as bad or good even though society considers me 'bad' and I don't know any better.

At this point I still havent developed those actual feelings but I have an understanding of them, enough to play the role until I get it, and I will get it because I feel that it is underdeveloped since I feel them sometimes.

Either way recommending that he see a therapist based on experience or research based information is not unreasonable and everyone here should agree I think.

Re: #1

Please clarify:
So you had good feelings (empathy; warmth) up until age 18-21, and then it disappeared?

What happened in the interim?

NB ASPD would have been present at 18; in fact, it is often preceded by CD in childhood.

Unless there is some sort of dramatic brain insult (a la Phineas Gage), ASPD sx don't just "show up".

re: #9
Yup. They don't have distress. They are Ego Syntonic with their ASPD. LOL

Our poster here seems to 'want' to have feelings.

Umm, Matt, you don't have to be mean or sarcastic about it. I don't have a PhD but I do know the diagnostic criteria according to the DSM, as well as having worked with many people with behavioral disorders, so I have a "feel" for it.

In my personal experience, people with this disorder do NOT take responsibility for their behavior and continually blame and attack others for their problems. Some of the diagnostic criteria are as follows (non-PhD individuals are capable of accessing and interpreting the DSM, by the way):

*There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:
*failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by *repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
*deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
*impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
*irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
*reckless disregard for safety of self or others
*consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
*lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

In fact, part of what can differentiate ADHD from ASPD, for example, can be the person's attitude about their responsibility for their problems and the source of the difficulty.

This does not sound like an individual who takes responsibility for their own problems or the problems of others, and in most cases this is what it is.

So, PhD I am not, and if you believe I have no credibility, there's certainly the choice to disregard what I say.

I wasn't being rude but everything isn't cookie cutter either, some people do improve and want to change, I added to my post up there so if you feel the desire to read about what I added please do.

I escaped personal responsibility for my behavior my whole life because I thought it was "okay" to behave that way because I grew up with bipolar disorder and punishment wasn't really enforced because I had that problem, so I learned to have a personality that is ASPD criteria worthy, I actually have the "in full remission" label, because I have managed to pinpoint the cause and work to develop some of the essential emotions.

So think twice before treating me like I am a monster and maybe I will have a bit of consideration for you. Something that does feed into the ASPD mentality is the interaction I have with people especially when they treat me like I choose to not have these feelings. I apologize for my remark, but understand that I was merely commenting on what I observed and again I proved my point in a sense that he was not going to get a very objective opinion here, hence the last two posts versus my reality because....

I Actually Want To Feel These Feelings Which is Why I am In Treatment For It




Thank You, Have a nice day :)

From a purely chemical perspective, Klonopin might be contributing to this, if you're taking it regularly.

Dopamine, adrenaline, and phenylethylamine (the love chemical) are all released when experiencing powerful emotions. Klonopin antagonizes all of that. The good news it that it's fantastic for helping anxiety and bi-polar disorders. Bad news is that it's kind of "numbing." Stopping Klonopin might give you your emotions back, but your anxiety/bi-polarity would come back as well (especially with adderall). So it's a catch 22.

Adderall can be emotionally numbing, too, cause it kind of puts you in a "here and now" task-oriented state of mind. That's not exactly condusive to feeling warm and fuzzy.

SSRI's, if they worked for ya, raised serotonin in your system. Serotonin gives you a kind of contented or satisfied feeling. Satisfaction is a nice feeling, especially in contrast to depression, but it's not a strong emotion per se. It, once again, is also emotionally numbing. So this is really something you should talk to your doctor about. He might modify the dosage of some of the stuff you're taking.



Now, I don't know you personally, and I'm not a doctor, either, but when I see bi-polarity, anxiety, AND depression diagnoses, I tend to think it's all caused by one thing. In other words, just cause you have 5 different mental diagnoses doesn't mean you have 5 different mental diseases. You're not as screwed up as you think you are. Whatever causes your bi-polarity is probably causing your anxiety and depression, too.

Bi-polarity and anxiety are just your emotional centers going haywire.

Depression is cause your brain is exhausted from it and also cause you're dissatisfied with your quality of life. Probably from the alchoholism, too.

Alchoholism is a result of trying to self-medicate yourself.

ADHD symptoms can be caused by alchoholism.

I think you have two main things that need to be treated: Bi-polarity and alchoholism. Once again, I'm no doctor, nor do I know you personally. But I have a hunch that if you fix those two, the other three will disappear on their own. Or at least not be as much of a problem.

As far as the emotions go, behavioral therapy will help. But all the meds you're on and have been on so far are emotionally numbing. Talk to your doctor about this one. It might involve lowering some dosages of some stuff.

But you gotta understand that you gotta take the bad with the good. Feeling happiness again means feeling sad again, too. Feeling love again means the possibility of feeling loss....

But there is a middle ground to this, I believe, and you don't have to choose between being numb or being manic-depressive, either. But the way you go about that is not something I can answer.



The fact that you posted is an expression of your dissatisfaction of your current situation. Dissatisfaction is an emotion. So you're not a lost cause. ;)

From a purely chemical perspective, Klonopin might be contributing to this, if you're taking it regularly.

Dopamine, adrenaline, and phenylethylamine (the love chemical) are all released when experiencing powerful emotions. Klonopin antagonizes all of that. The good news it that it's fantastic for helping anxiety and bi-polar disorders. Bad news is that it's kind of "numbing." Stopping Klonopin might give you your emotions back, but your anxiety/bi-polarity would come back as well (especially with adderall). So it's a catch 22.

Adderall can be emotionally numbing, too, cause it kind of puts you in a "here and now" task-oriented state of mind. That's not exactly condusive to feeling warm and fuzzy.

SSRI's, if they worked for ya, raised serotonin in your system. Serotonin gives you a kind of contented or satisfied feeling. Satisfaction is a nice feeling, especially in contrast to depression, but it's not a strong emotion per se. It, once again, is also emotionally numbing. So this is really something you should talk to your doctor about. He might modify the dosage of some of the stuff you're taking.



Now, I don't know you personally, and I'm not a doctor, either, but when I see bi-polarity, anxiety, AND depression diagnoses, I tend to think it's all caused by one thing. In other words, just cause you have 5 different mental diagnoses doesn't mean you have 5 different mental diseases. You're not as screwed up as you think you are. Whatever causes your bi-polarity is probably causing your anxiety and depression, too.

Bi-polarity and anxiety are just your emotional centers going haywire.

Depression is cause your brain is exhausted from it and also cause you're dissatisfied with your quality of life. Probably from the alchoholism, too.

Alchoholism is a result of trying to self-medicate yourself.

ADHD symptoms can be caused by alchoholism.

I think you have two main things that need to be treated: Bi-polarity and alchoholism. Once again, I'm no doctor, nor do I know you personally. But I have a hunch that if you fix those two, the other three will disappear on their own. Or at least not be as much of a problem.

As far as the emotions go, behavioral therapy will help. But all the meds you're on and have been on so far are emotionally numbing. Talk to your doctor about this one. It might involve lowering some dosages of some stuff.

But you gotta understand that you gotta take the bad with the good. Feeling happiness again means feeling sad again, too. Feeling love again means the possibility of feeling loss....

But there is a middle ground to this, I believe, and you don't have to choose between being numb or being manic-depressive, either. But the way you go about that is not something I can answer.



The fact that you posted is an expression of your dissatisfaction of your current situation. Dissatisfaction is an emotion. So you're not a lost cause. ;)

Great post!

Ok, some clarification is in order. This is going to be long but I feel that it is needed.

My diagnosis have changed over time probably due to the position I was in at the time. Let me explain.

Childhood- ADHD, diagnosed, never medicated, I showed every classic symptom, can't sit still, never paid attention, spoke out, my desk was always away from everyone else, mind always on abstract things, "Steve is very smart but does not apply himself", Scored so high on the standardized achievement tests that they put me in special GT classes with only 4 other who scored as high. We did work very advanced for our ages.

Teenage- I felt the need to be the life of the party, risk taking, constantly trying to impress everyone. Emotionally I was still fairly stable. At this time I did not feel that I had any mental problems.

Early 20's- alcohol use became more frequent, had a good time when I was out for the most part, enjoyed most activities. I only had a few real friends. Alcohol eventually led drugs to keep the party going. I would say that there was a 18 month to 2 year period where coke and then E were used at least twice a week. This is where my problems developed.

To sum things up here, I was arrested 2 times over the course of a few years, went to jail for a short time-lied and told everyone I was on a vacation, my girlfriend was pregnant, I had a great job that I hid my arrests and problems from. This led to the constant fear that at any minute my work was going to find out who I really was an fire me. I was so scared because I was about to be a father at age 23.

This is when I received my second diagnosis. I went to the Psyc because I was sick to my stomach at all times with fear and anxiety. I used alcohol to numb the fear. I had real physical pain in my stomach for almost a year every day. The doctor diagnosed depression an put me Celexa.

Again to be brief, I bought a house with my girlfriend and tried to be a dad. This only lasted a year. I was more interested in going out and partying. Once my girlfriend and son were gone I had nothing holding me back. I took partying to a new level. The problem is that something changed in my head. No longer was I just going out for fun, I was seeking out fights. I was in a fight every night I went out. Win or lose it didn't matter, maybe it just felt good to release aggression? It didn't take long until I found my way back into the legal system again, this time facing some serious time.

This is where my third (and I believe incorrect) diagnosis came in. I was such a mess when I went to the Pysc that I was diagnosed Bi-Polar. This is when I made a conscience change in my life.

I was 25 and decided that I would give up alcohol. I started going to AA. Along with this I had to give up my close friends because they were in a place I was trying to escape from. After being sober for months I went back to a new doctor to be re-evaluated. Diagnosed with anxiety and depression and put on a host of SSRIs over about a year trying to find the magic pill. I went to AA fairly regularly for 4 years but always felt like I was faking it. I did not believe that there was a higher power helping me, I really didn't care about the other members of the group like I should have. I only formed one real friendship. I said what people wanted to hear, how great it was to be sober but inside I was still empty, indifferent towards everything, not what I expected after 5 years in the program.

So I have been just going through my daily life knowing that something is not right. I never am really happy, find it difficult to enjoy anything that does not involve competition or addrenalin. I still have a drive inside of me for success. Career wise I hid all of my legal discretions and have been promoted several times and I actually have people working for me.

To continue my career I went back to grad school. When in class I feel like a 6 year old. I still have the compulsion to be the class clown, I wiggle in my chair the same way as a child, cant sit still, day dream, draw. This led me to go see the doctor about my adult adhd.

So that is where I am today. On adderall and Klonopin. I have had moments with aderrall where I have felt great, willing to talk to people, engaging, focused, no day dreams. Then the crash and anxiety hits. I feel I need to take it every 3 hours to keep the anxiety away (10mg). The Klonopin makes me feel better some times and other times it seems to promote anxiety????

So back to the lack of emotions.....maybe I should have said suppressed emotions. I made a comment that it is like I never recovered from a high school break-up, this was a metaphor. There was no event that cut my emotions off, just the cumulative damage during my early 20's and lack of social development (guessing).

Thats me, more than I have ever said about myself. Sorry about the long post but I wanted you all to see where I come from.

I am interested in any suggestions, therapies, opinions, comments. I see my doc next week and I think we need to drop the Klonopin in favor of an SSRI, I did have some success on them.

-B

Where does apathy meet ego? What does that mean. Apathy means not feeling, you can have a sense of self.

And I totally don't get how not having self confidence makes you feel superior to others, nor how that clashes with your apathy. And since you were concerned about your being apathetic, does that make this all a good thing in your mind?

I'm so confused.

I know that I am not the first person to put on an act of superiority to compensate for a lack of self confidence.

As far as apathy meets ego:

Apathy is a state of indifference — where an individual has an absence of interest or concern to certain aspects of emotional, social, or physical life.

"To become free of the ego is not really a big job but a very small one. All you need to do is be aware of your thoughts and emotions - as they happen." -Tolle

How can I get rid of my ego if I am not aware of my feelings or emotions. I want to be aware of my emotions, to be able to identify how I feel, the idea of going through life with the absence of interest or concern is pretty depressing in and of itself.

Sorry, I can not celebrate apathy.

Antisocial Personality Disorder descriptions on like Wikipedia for example are detailed. I don't know and I am not a doctor but it sounds like you are describing that.

I have some cross over symptoms but no where close to what is described. I will mention it to my doctor but I think it is a pretty far stretch.

Feeling Unreal: Cognitive Processes in Depersonalization (http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/157/1/103)

OBJECTIVE: Depersonalization disorder is characterized by a detachment from one’s sense of self and one’s surroundings that leads to considerable distress and impairment yet an intact testing of reality. Depersonalized individuals often report difficulties in perception, concentration, and memory; however, data on their cognitive profiles are lacking


CONCLUSIONS: The authors propose that depersonalization involves alterations in the attentional and perceptual systems, specifically in the ability to effortfully control the focus of attention. These early encoding deficits are hypothesized to have a deleterious effect on the short-term memory system; they manifest as deficits in the ability to take in new information but not in the ability to conceptualize and manipulate previously encoded information.

{End Quote}

More information (http://www.angelfire.com/home/bphoenix1/depers.html)

In my opinion this reads a lot like ADD also - so the stress of having ADD may cause Depersonalization episodes. Anxiety is a issue - it can feel "kind of awkward" but is not necessarily perceived as awkward. .. traits with other PD can be experienced by some who have difficulty with depersonalization but not all. . .

As mentioned above medication can cause this also - and I would begin with a discussion with the prescribing doctor. If indeed this is a long term problem therapy can some times be of assistance - if the medication route doesn't relieve the problem then psychological evaluation for other possible co-existing conditions may be worthy of consideration seeing ADD doesn't like to travel alone. A decent percentage of ADDers went through a good deal of our lives with undiagnosed ADD this can cause us to develop secondary conditions like PD, PTSD, and yes depersonalization disorder due how we are treated because of our ADD.




Last of all but most importantly - remember all "mental conditions" come complete with an individual person attached - However we all even on good days have our great moments in ADD history - a bit of compassion can go a long way no matter what ones perspective may be.

I have some cross over symptoms but no where close to what is described. I will mention it to my doctor but I think it is a pretty far stretch.

Your updated description makes what you describe seem more trauma related, now. I merely meet criteria for ASPD, I don't believe deep down that I am a 'classic sociopath' per say because the fact that I do not have these emotions are bothersome to me and feeling guilt for the first time a couple of years ago makes me feel all weird about having to fake it sometimes now, whereas when I was younger I never cared about it.

Your AA story sounds like how I was when I got sober, I stayed sober although I relapse often when I am manic or headed there or I get triggered (PTSD).

Trauma related therapy with a good therapist (one who doesn't have such a transparent countertransference deal going on) is helpful, it is like you are missing parts of yourself isn't it? I ask because that is my experience and working through that may help.

I have learned that these emotions can be learned again or stumbled upon accidentally, it feels better to feel them because they are essential to development but it is a defense mechanism not to feel them, for me it protects me from intense pain. I sometimes feel guilt and it feels horrible, I can say I would love to feel it all of the time but I don't know whether or not I am willing to feel guilty about past behavior because I didn't feel anything at the time and I have done so much that if I felt guilt about it all, I would probably commit suicide.

Matt -- I didn't try to come off as if I were treating you like a monster -- ?? I was merely telling the OP that the diagnosis -- for him -- did not "feel" right to me, partially because a sense of pain about NOT having pain is not the norm for someone with a TRUE ASPD. In fact (although I am NOT an expert, I don't think I've claimed to be! But I do have a lot of personal/work experience with people with this d/o) it is truly uncommon for someone with a TRUE diagnosis of ASPD to express any remorse about what they do -- or to have insight about it in the first place.

From what I have read of your posts, I don't know that your diagnosis was all that accurate either -- but I am not an expert. I just know that personality disorders tend to be lifelong and insoluble as far as treatment is concerned. So who knows that yours was accurate?

You kinda hurt my feelings with your response, sort of like, "Hey dummy, who are you, and you don't know anything," so if I responded poorly I apologize. I just wanted to help the OP and perhaps offer him some hope and I felt like I got pounced on.

Trauma related therapy with a good therapist (one who doesn't have such a transparent countertransference deal going on) is helpful, it is like you are missing parts of yourself isn't it? I ask because that is my experience and working through that may help.


You lost me here. Sound like you have had a bad experience with a therapist? When I look for a therapist, what specialties am I looking for?

Matt -- I didn't try to come off as if I were treating you like a monster -- ?? I was merely telling the OP that the diagnosis -- for him -- did not "feel" right to me, partially because a sense of pain about NOT having pain is not the norm for someone with a TRUE ASPD. In fact (although I am NOT an expert, I don't think I've claimed to be! But I do have a lot of personal/work experience with people with this d/o) it is truly uncommon for someone with a TRUE diagnosis of ASPD to express any remorse about what they do -- or to have insight about it in the first place.

From what I have read of your posts, I don't know that your diagnosis was all that accurate either -- but I am not an expert. I just know that personality disorders tend to be lifelong and insoluble as far as treatment is concerned. So who knows that yours was accurate?

You kinda hurt my feelings with your response, sort of like, "Hey dummy, who are you, and you don't know anything," so if I responded poorly I apologize. I just wanted to help the OP and perhaps offer him some hope and I felt like I got pounced on.

I was intending to do the same thing, I know personally that describing those same things to a doctor has usually resulted in them saying it was ASPD, except once it was called NPD but I was manic at the time, ASPD for me is labelled in full remission I have always carried that diagnosis and I never felt guilty until a couple of years ago and NPD has been ruled out besides that the only other one I was given once was borderline and that was ruled out quickly too because I am definitely not borderline. Besides that the only other thing that qualifies is PTSD and I have had that dx since I was 14.

in:re Trauma therapist, countertransference is when the therapist tries to get you to do something based on their desires from their experience in life and it is easy to detect, when you are hypervigilant, PTSD, BPD and ASPD are three diagnoses that people who notice that have.

In psychotherapy, counter-transference is a condition where the therapist, as a result of the therapy sessions, begins to transfer the therapist's own unconscious feelings to the patient. For example, a therapist might have a strong desire for a client to get all 'A's' in university because the client reminds her of her children at that stage in life, and the anxieties that the therapist experienced during that time. Another example would be a therapist who didn't receive enough attention from her father perceiving her client as being too distant and resenting him for it.


that is all I was referring to and I pick up on it fast and find it annoying. There are a lot of good therapists out there.

I was intending to do the same thing, I know personally that describing those same things to a doctor has usually resulted in them saying it was ASPD, except once it was called NPD but I was manic at the time,

Just a out loud wondering here Matt - couldn't the lack of "guilt" / "shame" ect also be a result of having bi-polar and ADD. I men ADD makes it difficult if not impossible to hold onto some thoughts Because of our lack of stimuli filters we often get bombarded by other thoughts before even completing the first or we can't filter out a obsessive thought because the damn stimuli filter snaps shut and won't let another one in.

The above is hard enough and all I am is describing ADD - add some bi-polar into the mix - Bi-polar as most known for the wide mood swings it produces. What most do not realize is some times the person experiencing the mood swing especially when they are going manic do not know they are manic- reality perception changes and the bi-polar person is often unaware of it

Between the reality shift and the attention issues I can see where just trying to navigate through this world would be a challenge all by it. Having to deal with a constantly shifting reality along with an attention span that isn't under conscious control while being expected to remember to close doors, do home work, do chores, and shower, dress and well live a semi-connected makes me tired just typing it out never mind living it. I can see where just trying to get by moment to moment in life and function in a resemblance of normal would leave very little room for reflection and insight - hence lack of guilt -

Guilt and shame require us to reflect upon a past action - if we are unable to reflect upon said past action then there may be a lack of remorse not because one is incapable of feeling it but because perception necessary for "guilt" is not available due to the ADD/bi-polar combo.


This is only a thought - presented for your consideration - rejection of it is always an option which I won't take personally.- I have no emotional attachment to the thought.

Just a out loud wondering here Matt - couldn't the lack of "guilt" / "shame" ect also be a result of having bi-polar and ADD. I men ADD makes it difficult if not impossible to hold onto some thoughts Because of our lack of stimuli filters we often get bombarded by other thoughts before even completing the first or we can't filter out a obsessive thought because the damn stimuli filter snaps shut and won't let another one in.

The above is hard enough and all I am is describing ADD - add some bi-polar into the mix - Bi-polar as most known for the wide mood swings it produces. What most do not realize is some times the person experiencing the mood swing especially when they are going manic do not know they are manic- reality perception changes and the bi-polar person is often unaware of it

Between the reality shift and the attention issues I can see where just trying to navigate through this world would be a challenge all by it. Having to deal with a constantly shifting reality along with an attention span that isn't under conscious control while being expected to remember to close doors, do home work, do chores, and shower, dress and well live a semi-connected makes me tired just typing it out never mind living it. I can see where just trying to get by moment to moment in life and function in a resemblance of normal would leave very little room for reflection and insight - hence lack of guilt -

Guilt and shame require us to reflect upon a past action - if we are unable to reflect upon said past action then there may be a lack of remorse not because one is incapable of feeling it but because perception necessary for "guilt" is not available due to the ADD/bi-polar combo.


This is only a thought - presented for your consideration - rejection of it is always an option which I won't take personally.- I have no emotional attachment to the thought.

That is my theory behind it, for a long time regardless of growing up with both bipolar and ADHD I managed to believe that there was nothing wrong with me, and even still do to this day when I get in certain states, yet when faced with the prospect of taking responsibility for my behavior, I managed to both, believe it was okay and not feel anything or care about it because I was bipolar so it didn't make a difference.

You are also correct about the lack of insight into being manic, most of the time. When psychosis hits right off, I usually know, but when it escalates to that other people have to tell me. The second one is usually what happens and even then sometimes when I am "there" I usually can understand that is the case. Mixed episodes usually prompt me to seek help.

I believe that I meet criteria for ASPD but I don't believe that I actually have true ASPD, because I am Ego Dystonic about it, I used to be Ego Syntonic about it but I felt guilty for the first time almost 3 years ago and since then I have managed to want to change. I don't think NPD or BPD ever applied and I never met criteria for any of those PD's for any longer than six months, OCPD was being looked into at one point too but that never quite fit.

Medication also plays a role in my affect, both stimulant and mood stabilizer medicines have a 'flattening of affect' aspect to them, so I come accross as distant, indifferent and cold because of that.

I actually liked your post because it was closer to what is fact as opposed to just the typical opinion of being some "guiltless monster", not to say my personality is not disordered at all, it is not intentional. My actions and their effect on other people are not in any way intentionally predatory, I often effect things negatively and hurt other people to protect myself (I am not physically violent) and the consequences that are bestowed upon them are often not what I wanted or intended. I usually feel like a piece of dirt after these situations in which I intend to protect myself, expect a certain result and end up hurting someone more in the long run. I can also say that since I have learned (or accidentally) to feel guilty, I often hurt people on the basis of my engaging in prosocial behavior and them being held accountable for their behavior, before I would've manipulated and conned them. So in a sense I guess I should learn to not feel guilty about that type of thing when my behavior is prosocial and I ultimately am preventing something bad from happening to other people.

I agree with MeADD - a lot of your history sounds like it arose from ADD, extreme but not untypical. Your "lack of emotions" or "depersonalization" can come from a long history of feeling like a fraud, of being found out for the mess you really are in the inside.

actually liked your post because it was closer to what is fact as opposed to just the typical opinion of being some "guiltless monster", not to say my personality is not disordered at all, it is not intentional

I know what it is like to be labeled some thing{note it ways has to be negative tooo} because people do not understand your reactions and you do not understand their perception. It happens to me all the time.


I can see where lack of reflective insight can be developed into a coping mechanism designed for emotional survival.

I'm too ADHD this evening to have read this thread as thoroughly as I should. But here's how I see it:
Depersonalization/lack of emotion can be depression and bipolar related. When I am severely depressed, I don't always feel sad-- rather a profound apathy. Sometimes I feel so numb and flattened that I feel as if I'm dead.

When I was younger, I remember the overwhelming sadness and despair (crushing and wrenching are how I would describe it) of my depressed phases. There was a person I loved, then, and still do, although I haven't seen her or spoken to her in years. Something about that relationship and the end of it was so heartbreaking and tragic that I have never, ever come even close to feeling that way about anyone. I still feel, even though it's been 7 years, that a part of me was irreperably lost, then. People say that time heals all wounds, but I am not convinced.

As for the alcoholism-- I'm not sure if I see it as a seperate disorder. It can be a way of self-medicating for both ADHD and bipolar. Until I began taking adderall, I used to drink excessively when manic because it was the only way I could calm down. I'm sure many thought of me as an alcoholic, and I thought of myself as one at times. However, I would invariably wake up one day and just stop drinking completely. It was never a conscious decision, I would just not feel like it for months at a time. In addition to calming me down, it helped a lot with the sensory overload that I often experience. Since being prescribed adderall, that compulsion is eliminated. I have a few sips of a drink at dinner occasionally, but that is extremely rare. The desire to drink has dissipated completely. There was a period in my life when I drank a fifth of tequila a day. I also worked in clubs for a time and would drink vast quantities of Grey Goose every night. During my big, long manic episode when I lived in Paris, I drank at least a bottle of wine every day. I give these examples to emphasize how extensively I self-medicated by bipolar and ADHD before I sought treatment.

I wish you luck in sorting all of this out-- I think it can be tremendously confusing and difficult to identify what the root cause of all these emotions/behaviours is. With regards to myself, I do believe very strongly that all of these emotions/behaviors are interconnected. While I crave self-discovery and analysis, I find it can be a daunting process. Given all that's been written here, I can only surmise that others feel the same way.

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