From all my experiences with doctors and neurologists and school psychologists over the last 20 years, they all confirmed I had ADHD but also that my IQ was very high.
I know many ADHD people have had similar situations and that there is limited material available about this fact. One article even claims that ADHD doesn't exist but that it is a product of a truly gifted mind being suppressed(i'm not quite sure about that, the hyperactivity alone should be able to disprove that)
Your opinion?

Most ADHDers are of average or above average intelligence, there are statistics to back this thus FACT up.

Suppression of a genius mind... perhaps, but I'm seriously trying to figure out if ADHD is truly a gift or a hindrance. Suppose it's all relative and circumstantial. (eg. 20th century factory or 10,000BC)

I don't quite believe in the next evolutionary step crap, for the simple fact that ADHD is on the rise as is other pollutants that are known to cause it in utero etc.

My Tester told me that LD and ADD kids tend to have normal or higher IQs, but since we do poorly on testing, it is not reflected in the final scoring.

Actually, the defiinition of an LD is a wide discrepancy btwn Performance IQ and Verbal IQ, in testing. ;)

The only exception that I know of for ADDers having lower than normal IQs is in FAS (fetal alcohol syndrome; a form of solvent-generated prenatal brain damage/retardation) and in low functioning Autism.

--

N.B. (From Dr. Daniel Goleman's 'EQ vs IQ' research. I've read 4 of his books.)

1. Surprisingly, "IQ" itself is not a very good predictor of career or life or financial success.
In fact, the correlation is about 25%. =:O

2. I think that it is important to note that as the mean IQ has gone up in the last 100 years, the mean EQ has gone down.
EQ is a better predictor of 'success in life' than IQ.

In short, high IQ doesn't mean so much...

Hi Naturechick,

Here is an article I read several months ago on ADD & giftedness: http://borntoexplore.org/gifted.htm (http://borntoexplore.org/gifted.htm)

Suppression of a genius mind... perhaps, but I'm seriously trying to figure out if ADHD is truly a gift or a hindrance. Suppose it's all relative and circumstantial. (eg. 20th century factory or 10,000BC)

I don't quite believe in the next evolutionary step crap, for the simple fact that ADHD is on the rise as is other pollutants that are known to cause it in utero etc.

Definitely a hinderance in today's society. <sigh>
But the pollutants are causing (a type 2?) ADHD which HAS to have some differences. I wish it could be more classifed. I don't believe that a (disability?/gift?) can be caused both gentically and through environment and be EXACTLY the same. Maybe I just have a need for everything to be proven...

NC80,

I often wonder about the ADD/higher IQ equation myself. All my life, many people around me have always either told me that I was "freaky" smart or are honestly amazed by some of the things I accomplish (the vast majority of them don't have a clue about me being diagnosed with ADD).

While I tend to take it with a "grain of salt" and not let it go to my head and/or ego, objectively there are areas where I excel based on just following instinctive intuition, which for me is anything dealing with computers and IT, among other things. However, there are very common practical things that are quite difficult for me like laundry. I can get it done, generally without turning all my whites pink, and shrunk several sizes smaller, but the logic and method completely eludes me.

So, this leads me to wonder if the ADD/IQ conundrum is simply a result of the "IQ test" not being able to adequately capture and measure the ADD ability to "hyperfocus". When I hit my stride/hyperfocus, I am simply able to get things done without being impeded by my usual concentration issues and if I hit problems along the way I am effortlessly creative with my solutions and "just handle it". Could I explain how or why I did it that way? Not a chance (not coherently anyways except to a fellow ADD brother or sister...)

I have my "A-ha!" moments when I hyperfocus, but outside of those I feel rock stupid sometimes ("Quick like tree; smart like rock")

I just wonder how we would score on IQ tests, if they could somehow correlate and account for the ADD tendency to hyperfocus.

Take care,
ESM

See http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48425

See http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48425

why?..

Cross-referencing the IQ issue. :confused:

Cross-referencing the IQ issue. :confused:

oh..ok

From all my experiences with doctors and neurologists and school psychologists over the last 20 years, they all confirmed I had ADHD but also that my IQ was very high.
I know many ADHD people have had similar situations and that there is limited material available about this fact. One article even claims that ADHD doesn't exist but that it is a product of a truly gifted mind being suppressed(i'm not quite sure about that, the hyperactivity alone should be able to disprove that)
Your opinion?A diagnosis of ADHD/ADD is frequently added to other more severe disabilities - even severe Pervasive Developmental Disorder. Some people are more comfortable with a diagnosis of ADHD/ADD than other more severe disabilities.

I have no idea how well I would do on an IQ test, but I feel like a fairly intelligent person. Either that, or I just run into a high percentage of really dumb people. It has been said that the old style SATs were a decent indicator of IQ (1000 SAT=100 IQ, 1600=160). That would put me over the norm, but not astonishingly so.

My son has had several intelligence tests with impressive scores. His VIQ and PIQ gap seems to be widening with age. He's considered twice exceptional, but I do tend to feel that they're intertwined and, if he should be able to rid himself of one, it would take the other with it.

There's also the fact that both IQ and LDs tend to run in families. Sure, it's not a given, but if you have one or both parents who happen to have both or one each, you're more likely to have kids with both.

jarleigannor- very interesting idea. My brother, sister and I were all in the "gifted and talented" program in school. Admittance was based on an IQ of 140 or above. My brother and sister are ADD, I'm ADHD & bipolar. Anyhow, my brother has dysgraphia and some reading troubles, my sister had trouble with reading also and I have an auditory LD. My father, who is a computer and engineering genius has Asperger's, dysgraphia, and can't spell to save his life. My mother has an auditory LD also and is very ADD. I think she also has an anxiety disorder, but she's never been diagnosed (she's just totally non-functional). In my family it's certainly true that ADD/ADHD, above average IQ and learning disabilities. I'd be interested to know how many others on the forums have family histories like this.

I have a lot of ADD in my family and we have IQ however I am the only one that I know of with a learning disability - I have a sister and a daughter with bi-polar and ADD but neither has dyslexia that I know of - just me.

I don't think intelligence is related to ADHD; what might be related is finishing the damn test that lasts 8 hours!!!!!!!!
Finishing it was the feat of my life (same with the FCE maybe and my TOEFLs).
I'm sure that if I'd do it on concerta I'd do better. I did it three years ago and I think I got a 138, which is above average.

jarleigannor- very interesting idea. My brother, sister and I were all in the "gifted and talented" program in school. Admittance was based on an IQ of 140 or above. My brother and sister are ADD, I'm ADHD & bipolar. Anyhow, my brother has dysgraphia and some reading troubles, my sister had trouble with reading also and I have an auditory LD. My father, who is a computer and engineering genius has Asperger's, dysgraphia, and can't spell to save his life. My mother has an auditory LD also and is very ADD. I think she also has an anxiety disorder, but she's never been diagnosed (she's just totally non-functional). In my family it's certainly true that ADD/ADHD, above average IQ and learning disabilities. I'd be interested to know how many others on the forums have family histories like this.


Hey there

I was also in the "gifted and talented" program at school. I didn't have too many problems at school (just a bit of depression) and my grades were good, although the common signs of ADD were there. My parents never saw it as a problem so medication never even crossed their minds. Only since I have started at university have I been having loads of problems coping. I recently visited a campus psychologist, and after a few sessions, she diagnosed ADD.

I think the whole ADD thing is just one of those things people identify as deviating from the norm, and anything that is not 'normal' is not a good thing. Unfortunately, we have to live by our society's rules... go to school, do well, make lots of money and live happily ever after. Medication is a way to blend into the crowd, just like the way we dress, the products we buy and the occupations we persue. (yes, I do take medication ;) )

Well, I have ADHD and OCD, my sister has BPI and alcoholism, my mother has BPII, my grandfather had ADHD and alcoholism, and I know of at least 3 cousins with ADHD, 2 with OCD, and 3 more with BPx.

So you can't tell me its NOT genetic.

However, to assume environment doesn't play ANY role is silly because environment is all around us all the time. We need to frame the discussion more carefully.

Environment may be changing over time such that illnesses that weren't noticeable before are noticeable now.

Environment may be changing in that we are exposed to a lot more variables which will have a (duh) more variable affect on each of us. So if I had a gene which was really only a problem if I happened to be exposed to some dust which typically only occurred in China - 200 years ago I was fine. Now, with increasing particulate travel via huge dust storms and simple dust getting into a package getting shipped here from China, I'm exposed.

Anywho - my sister, mother, and I all tested above 140 on the IQ test.

This so did not go where I wanted it to go. Sigh.

B

Supposedly my iq is 140...

I kinda think that society in general, mostly made up of left brained SJ's (sensor judgers -- Myers Briggs...) developed a system that works very well for them. This includes a strict right and wrong code.

Throw people like us into the mix and they can't figure us out and we do everything wrong according to their code and we can't succeed they way we "should" in their system and so, what do you know, we have a disorder.

Then, in order to function in this system "normally" we need some sort of medication or support system or we'll go crazy. So yeah, because IQ tests seem to favor non-linear thinking, ADD people will do better on them. That doesn't mean we'll necessarily be that successful in an SJ world.

Hey there

I was also in the "gifted and talented" program at school. I didn't have too many problems at school (just a bit of depression) and my grades were good, although the common signs of ADD were there. My parents never saw it as a problem so medication never even crossed their minds. Only since I have started at university have I been having loads of problems coping. I recently visited a campus psychologist, and after a few sessions, she diagnosed ADD.

I think the whole ADD thing is just one of those things people identify as deviating from the norm, and anything that is not 'normal' is not a good thing. Unfortunately, we have to live by our society's rules... go to school, do well, make lots of money and live happily ever after. Medication is a way to blend into the crowd, just like the way we dress, the products we buy and the occupations we persue. (yes, I do take medication ;) )

If you look at studies about gifted students and "non-NT" students, there are huge similarities. http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/ has a lot of information. Advocates for gifted education maintain that an IQ 30 standard deviations above the norm requires just as much... 'intervention' as an IQ 30 standard deviations below the norm. School systems don't seem to like that idea much.

If you take an adhd'er or a dyslexic or an autism spectrum kid or whatever else, and they come out with a 'normal' IQ because their higher ability cancels out their lower abilities, it won't be easy to get help on *either end.

The enthusiasm for 'normal' is plain sad. Still, everyone wonders why great minds like those in our history books seem to be disappearing. Morons.

...the pollutants are causing (a type 2?) ADHD which HAS to have some differences. I wish it could be more classifed. I don't believe that a (disability?/gift?) can be caused both gentically and through environment and be EXACTLY the same...

Two days ago I was reading a news story about working memory. (here (http://tinyurl.com/4z2btw)) One of the comments came from a woman who had very ADHD type problems:

******* ******* from *****, Vermont, United States writes: We have to remember (no pun intended) that working memory will shift with physiological changes in the brain's function. I hold a master's degree and worked in rehab of developmentally disabled persons until I suffered pesticide poisoning at the age of 45. One of the most disabling signs was serious impairment of short term memory, often unable to recall the names of people I was speaking to, their last statements or even my own. Devastating to learn via an MRI that I had suffered cell death of the top layer of my cortex (cortical atrophy), necessary for executive functions such as multi-tasking. Neuropsychological testing indicated a lost of 24 points in my IQ and I was very fortunate to have started 'high' or would not have recovered my literacy skills to this extent. Still unable to perform subtraction, I shop with a debit card so I don't have to count change...

Talk about instant ADHD/LD.

But if pesticides in a large dose caused such severe effects, then what about the small amounts we encounter every day?

Having said that, I don't know if the ADHD incidence numbers reflect the changes in usage of various chemicals. I am sure someone is studying it, just haven't run across it.

Ducky

I have been around this forum for only a month now and I found this topic really interesting. I think that the IQ vary widely between individual, ADHD or not.

I have been told by my neuropsychologist that my high IQ is what help me cope with my poor attention and poor working memory. The coping mechanisms I put in place is what help me get a very decent situation, both at home and at work (although not without any problems).

Now, was I born with a high IQ or did I get the chance to have an environment that help me get to that point? I am still skeptical about the way we measure the IQ and I think it will always be a metric with a margin for error. I am also thinking that this IQ I have is maybe something I acquire by building coping mechanisms.

Now, as to publicize it or not, I think it should not be "public" in the sense that it can cause other problems. I would prefer that scientifically valid research be done on the subject, with statistics on a big enough population sample, ADD and not ADD. Even then, I am not sure any conclusion could be draw, as with such a big sample, the margin for error will grow as other factor must be accounted for: family, education, etc...

IQ is a very delicate subject. Generally any indications of specific groups having higher or lower IQs get quashed by conjecture for and against. This is probably for the best, as differentiating based on IQ really only leads to a class system. The other problem is the large degree of difficulty that exists in confirming just whether or not a specific group has higher or lower IQ than the norm.

Not to mention all the problems with the IQ concept which are irrespective of ADHD.

Personally I believe that ADHD produces higher IQs. I think that the higher IQ is mostly 'epigenetic', however, rather than genetic; the higher IQ isn't a direct result of certain genes, rather a byproduct of the brain's neural plasticity and response to how certain genes (ADHD) alter brain chemistry. Example: enlarged amygdala in people with ADHD as a compensatory mechanism.

IQ is a very delicate subject. Generally any indications of specific groups having higher or lower IQs get quashed by conjecture for and against. This is probably for the best, as differentiating based on IQ really only leads to a class system. The other problem is the large degree of difficulty that exists in confirming just whether or not a specific group has higher or lower IQ than the norm.

Not to mention all the problems with the IQ concept which are irrespective of ADHD.

Personally I believe that ADHD produces higher IQs. I think that the higher IQ is mostly 'epigenetic', however, rather than genetic; the higher IQ isn't a direct result of certain genes, rather a byproduct of the brain's neural plasticity and response to how certain genes (ADHD) alter brain chemistry. Example: enlarged amygdala in people with ADHD as a compensatory mechanism.
In on of my classes in college we studied the IQ test and how that it is biased against minorities. I feel that people with adhd can be more intellegent, but this does not always show up in an iq test. For one thing many many people with adhd have a very hard time for what ever reason taking tests. I wish there was a better way to evaluate how smart somone is besides some test. In the whole mix i also believe that the creativity factor should be looked at also.

In on of my classes in college we studied the IQ test and how that it is biased against minorities. I feel that people with adhd can be more intellegent, but this does not always show up in an iq test. For one thing many many people with adhd have a very hard time for what ever reason taking tests. I wish there was a better way to evaluate how smart somone is besides some test. In the whole mix i also believe that the creativity factor should be looked at also.

In theory, there should be no need to determine how smart/creative/taleted anyone is or isn't. In the end, you either 'do' or you 'don't do', regardless of measurements.

We only have IQ scores (as well as other scales that measure other aspects) for one of our kids. I had intended to not look at the results, but the temptation was too great, lol. Unfortunately, measuring is the only leverage for most people to get certain needs met in schools. The rest of my kids are homeschooled, so I don't see any need to have them tested when things are easily individualized to their abilities.

In my state, there's a big push to overhaul the gifted ed programs, but it doesn't exactly rate as a top priority when there are so many other problems to work on. It's understandable, but it definitely stinks for the kids who don't present as 'typical gifted'.

re: #20

Hollyduck:

I once read that we are adding 1000 new chemicals to homes and workplaces each year.

Almost none of these are tested on Humans (or even rats, whose brains resemble ours).

We don't know WTF we are doing, really.

I mean, look at all this Bisphenol A (BPA; phthalates) in the Water Bottles and Baby Bottles, now linked to learning, neurological development and behavioral problems, etc?

And the Fire Retardants (PDBEs) in Mattresses linked to problems? (We spend 8hrs/day on these mattresses. Every time we roll over and breathe, we are taking in the stuff.)

Stupid, stupid, stupid humans and their inventions, huh?

*get that Febreze stuff and air freshener stuff (benzene!) away from me too!*

I was tested as a child and mother said it was high but she doesn't remember. I took one of the internet test and scored 134-136. I am sure that my mom is an adder too, and if she was ever on jepordy sp?, would win a fortune.But she does not get, jokes, they always have to be explained. My father is a retired aeronautical engineer but has no common sense.
If I ever "say" anything on this forum that hurts someones feelings or bugs them just attribute it to: When I was about 6-10 yrs the mosquito truck would come through our neighborhood with the big fog machine. All of us kids would run behind it. This was in 1966-1970, they finally changed it so it didn't make a fog. Back then it was probably DDT that we were breathing in. I'm glad I don't have children, probably one of those things that affects the next generation.