http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90782/90880/6377650.html

Study: ADHD affects adult women more than men
20:29, March 20, 2008
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<table valign="top" align="right" width="215"><tbody><tr><td align="center">
</td></tr></tbody></table>When compared to girls with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder, boys appear to be more impulsive and troubled, but in adulthood ADHD seems to have more impact in women.

"We found that adult women with ADHD frequently have high levels of emotional symptoms as well as the cognitive problems found in ADHD," Dr. Frederick W. Reimherr told Reuters Health.

In the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, Reimherr of the University of Utah in Salt Lake City and his colleagues describe their analysis of data from two clinical trials of Strattera, known generically as atomoxetine, in adults with ADHD.

In all, the researchers collected information on ADHD symptoms and treatment response in 515 individuals, about a third of whom were women. More women (75 percent) had combined-type ADHD than did men (62 percent). Women also had higher scores on measures of anxiety and depression and had more sleep problems.

Poor temper control, mood volatility, and emotional over-reactivity were more common in women (37 percent) than in men (29 percent).

In contrast to results of studies involving children, "women were more impaired than men on ADHD scales in our study," the investigators conclude.

Moreover, continued Reimherr, "these symptoms — depression, temper control problems, feelings of tension, and over-reacting to life stresses — might cause a doctor to miss the diagnosis of ADHD ... We feel that this will lead to problems in treatment for such women."

I have seen this to be true -
- at least in my house -

and just the smallest dose of dexedrine does wonders -
- verifying my initial suspicions.

I wonder how much hormones are part of the cause??

That's pretty interesting!

Misleading headline.
Better one would be. ADHD Symptoms have more impact on women than on men.
The original one might lead one to believe women on average have ADD more than men.

The scales of their study are not mentioned in specific.
It is difficult to impossible empirically delineate between effects caused by a ovulation
and the effects of ADD.

and given the controversy over the definition and classifications of ADD/ADHD in DSM-IV
about the different types. the whole "combined" stuff is a shoot.

Furthermore this study was conducted from patients doing a clinical trial of strattera.
which adds in another metric to consider as well.

The study is poorly thought out. appears sexist and is very much sensationalized.
OMG. SEX DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MALE AND FEMALE! PRINT IT!
OMG. DIFFERENCE IN RACE?! Controversey! PRINT IT!

Misleading headline.Hey, if I can learn to be more tolerant of spelling mistakes, syntax and grammar errors, you can deal. So sue them.

The scales of their study are not mentioned in specific.
It is difficult to impossible empirically delineate between effects caused by a ovulation
and the effects of ADD.Variance (nice handle by the way), if you look around the forums, you will notice the subject of middle-aged women with ADHD/ADD asking other women if they are noticing negative changes in their ADHD/ADD as their bodies go through peri-menopause and menopause. There's a whole bunch of ADHD/ADD baby boomers and they're talking to each other.

and given the controversy over the definition and classifications of ADD/ADHD in DSM-IV
about the different types. the whole "combined" stuff is a shoot.Interesting. Please expand on this idea.


The study is poorly thought out. appears sexist and is very much sensationalized.
OMG. SEX DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MALE AND FEMALE! PRINT IT!
OMG. DIFFERENCE IN RACE?! Controversey! PRINT IT!That may be true, but considering girls are often not diagnosed in childhood, I find it interesting that adult women are drawing the attention of someone. Menopause is sometimes when Mother Nature levels the playing field for men and women healthwise. Hormones help protect women from certain diseases. When those hormones are decreased or gone, the statistics change.

I've seen other article and studies hinting at the same thing -- while boys have more noticable ADHD as children, they are more likely to outgrow many of the symptoms. For example (and I'm just pulling on memory here) but boys utilize 8% less glucose in their frontal lobes in PET scans but this difference between normal control disappeared in adulthood. Girls were utilized 15% less glucose and they had not caught up to normal controls in adulthood.

Another thought I had relates to the fact that depression and anxiety were higher in the women -- from first hand experience as well as from what I've read on the subject, depression and anxiety make ADD symptoms much much worse. When I've been free of depression and anxiety my ADD symptoms are milder (still there for sure, but not as debilitating).

Another thought I had relates to the fact that depression and anxiety were higher in the women -- You've reminded me of another thing: women are more likely to seek help than men are. I base that on what I've read and had personal experience with. :eek: That's why men who are married probably seek help more often than single men. Or, if they don't seek help, they wind up single. :confused:

Another thought I had relates to the fact that depression and anxiety were higher in the women -- from first hand experience as well as from what I've read on the subject, depression and anxiety make ADD symptoms much much worse. When I've been free of depression and anxiety my ADD symptoms are milder (still there for sure, but not as debilitating).
to this I can certainly relate --

but also - partly - to this
and given the controversy over the definition and classifications of ADD/ADHD in DSM-IV
about the different types. the whole "combined" stuff is a shoot.
although I'd word it differently.
Er - dunno if it's a 'shoot' .. but I think it is a bit arbitrary where the line between combined and inattentive subtypes should be drawn and some think that they may turn out to be two completely separate disorders.

The hormonal differences between male and female might very well bias this as well

*grin* funny, this .. I wanted to write that women usually internalise more then men .. and it may be so .. but immediately, images of women that do a lot more than just internalise cross my mind .. and the guys that I like are usually the soul of gentleness.

But it seems to be like that. From my own experience as well - that anxiety makes the add totally crippling.

Furthermore this study was conducted from patients doing a clinical trial of strattera.
which adds in another metric to consider as well.

I agree with that. This introduces an extra bias.
Strattera, if anything, made my inattention worse.
These two lines are not logically connected btw ;)

Misleading headline.
[...]
OMG. SEX DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MALE AND FEMALE! PRINT IT!
OMG. DIFFERENCE IN RACE?! Controversey! PRINT IT!

Is it that bad? :rolleyes:

Good study/bad study - there's only so much any of us can tell from a mere news release. For any real answers or informed, analytical critique, we'd have to read, and be able to critically read, the full text of the original study :)

Here's the link to the abstract (http://www.psychiatrist.com/abstracts/abstracts.asp?abstract=200802/020806.htm) if it helps anyone.

Good study/bad study - this article is important because it raises awareness among clinical psychiatrists of the complicated presentation of ADD/ADHD in women. So many mental health practitioners slough off women as being "depressed" "anxious" or, in the old Freudian term, "hysterical" without bothering to ask themselves that all important question WHY?

Why is this person depressed, anxious, out of control across so many situations, across time?

How many useless prescriptions for antidepressants or anti-anxiety medications have the female ADD/ADHD population taken? :(

re: #5

Good point!

Social demands on women are different than those on men.

e.g. Mothers HAVE TO be able to multitask.

re: #11

Psychiatrists don't have to do those women's LIVES and 'jobs'? (I'm sure Freud had a wife and daughter and maid to look after him...)

In the old days (pre 1970s), DYK that a man could have his wife involuntarily hospitalized for not wanting/being able to, cope with household demands and children.

e.g. How the heck did our Grandmothers do it with no education, and no birth control? No wonder mine was NUTSO.

No resources (incl no power the # of kids) + too many demands + possible ADD/low coping ability = problems functioning across all life domains!

NB As much as I despise Tom Cruise and the Co$, he is right about people not 'knowing the History of Psychiatry".

And it (the dismissal of incredible crazy-making stressors factoring in on the 'creation' of mental illness and suffering) -- still continues today.

But those are stories for another day.

In the old days (pre 1970s), DYK that a man could have his wife involuntarily hospitalized for not wanting/being able to, cope with household demands and children.
And back in the 1930's and before they had the "rule of thumb" -- that a man could not beat his wife with a stick that was bigger around than his thumb. I'm afraid a lot of us ADD women would have had a rough time of it -- instead of being yelled at -- we'd have been beaten.:(

ADD buries deeply

- though I guess there'd be a reason for that -
wo/man changing rapidly
however
within contextual social systems which're backwards in coming forwards for re-alignment.

My wife couldn't see the problem -
I spend more time :-)
much more time on ADDF than she does

she still cannot believe the effect of medication

'never felt this way before' - she describes it as.

- if it helps any

- (my wife's story)

everything was too much -
there's this incapacity to know whether what's going on in one's head is actually how it's meant to be
no joy
it's all about minimizing the pain - not attempting anything new -
getting all tasks down into automaton mode -
dropping out from the dream is too painful
- linear thought impossible (it's not enough).
Cooking too difficult, work too difficult -
anything involving reading a manual - too hard -

not a smartness issue -
a boredom issue

- people talk - treat her badly - she's not quick enough to respond - because her words are lost to anxiety
- in the face of another imposing themselves unfairly upon her -

anyhow -
dexedrine and an SSRI -

amazing things -
she feels as though she's been cheated of life by not knowing that life in nonADD world could have been this much easier with meds,
we'd though need a medical system which understands ADD for that to happen,
(actually a medical system which understands mind
- but anyway)
... ... maybe soon ?

particularly poor it is (the understanding of mind and accoutrements) - in the UK and France.

(Incidentally my wife's story and mother's story run a perfect parallel -

- people and their interactions with others -
- the problems in communication
- the differences between the words one uses, the meaning one conveys, the subtext which one wishes to convey, the subtext which one conveys -
communication with other human beings is fraught with difficulty -
particularly so in hierarchy or
in absence of hierarchy - where there's unilateral reliance -
people are such that boredom doesn't appeal -
who'd choose to engage in some mind blowingly dull task if validly avoidable -?-

- problems everywhere.

And back in the 1930's and before they had the "rule of thumb" -- that a man could not beat his wife with a stick that was bigger around than his thumb. I'm afraid a lot of us ADD women would have had a rough time of it -- instead of being yelled at -- we'd have been beaten.:(

sorry couldn't help but be reminded about this movie from your quote:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/24/43683121_6012b98690.jpg?v=0

//irish accent.

"Rule of Thumb? can't do much damage with that now can we, perhaps it shoulda been a rule of wrist?"

::Guy gets hit in the nuts by the hardcore feminist::

It seems to have been lost, so we'll repeat what we've often posted about this:

In our work, we've found evidence that indicates females are the original source of the changes in the human brain and mind that underlie AD/HD.

The adaptation is basically what we experience as multitasking; put that in place and the rest follows through naturally occurring logical mechanisms.

Why females? We've also been over that, plenty. Suffice it to say that the difference isn't hormones; for want of a better description, it's males...

It seems to have been lost, so we'll repeat what we've often posted about this:

In our work, we've found evidence that indicates females are the original source of the changes in the human brain and mind that underlie AD/HD.

The adaptation is basically what we experience as multitasking; put that in place and the rest follows through naturally occurring logical mechanisms.

Why females? We've also been over that, plenty. Suffice it to say that the difference isn't hormones; for want of a better description, it's males...

could you please cite links to research / supporting arguments / explanations for these claims because these seem rather out there.

I would think it has more to do with brain development and hormones than simple "male/female" delineation if you are going to go down that avenue.
but it'd be fascinating to be corrected so studies/links please. or maybe keywords for pubmed or some other database (I have full access to most published journals)

much like "left handed people vs right handed people" has to do more with brain development of the fetus and levels of hormones in the womb.

could you please cite links to research / supporting arguments / explanations for these claims because these seem rather out there.


:-)

I'll try (for Tom and Kay)

- can you give me 10 or so (just) words representing areas of science whch you know, like and are interested in ... ... ...

just an attempt to work out how best to communicate

:-)

(not too sure of the solution to your question just yet -

- need to do my hours prowling the wastelands of

ermmm...

... ... ... southern cambridge
old Inger land)

??? ??? ???

:-)

I'll try (for Tom and Kay)
- can you give me 10 or so (just) words representing areas of science whch you know, like and are interested in ... ... ...
just an attempt to work out how best to communicate
:-)
(not too sure of the solution to your question just yet -
- need to do my hours prowling the wastelands of ermmm...
.. ... ... southern cambridge
old Inger land)
?? ??? ???


What do you mean? I'm a biology undergrad who loves neuroscience trying to get his GPA up for grad school. I've audited a few grad neuro classes and i've gone through a couple of neuropharm neurochem and neuropsych books.

I'm looking for credible research from medical journals supporting these broad over-generalized claims.

Your claims:

* Claim 1:

In our work, we've found evidence that indicates females are the original source of the changes in the human brain and mind that underlie AD/HD.

Here you word it as if you are a researcher holding at least a MD or a PhD or a primary on a science/medical journal by saying "In our work"
you fail to cite sources or evidence for how/why females are the original source of changes in all of the human brain that underlie AD/HD.

* Claim 2

The adaptation is basically what we experience as multitasking; put that in place and the rest follows through naturally occurring logical mechanisms.


Adaption is, among other things, a change in response to a condition in the environment.
multi-tasking can be an adaption. as for the rest of this, it is inane and imprecise. What is your point.

* Claim 3

Why females? We've also been over that, plenty. Suffice it to say that the difference isn't hormones; for want of a better description, it's males...

Again you indicate that this subject has been broached time and time again but fail to provide references to past productive discussions with compelling evidence.

Now you throw up a random out of context comment about it not being about hormones (when some theories have evidence that this might very well be the case with regards to the developing fetus) and then you vaguely then switch your argument from saying the cause is within females and claim it is within males.

What would be helpful in making this discussion more productive is for you to be more specific and precise in what you claim is the source of ADHD, your claims with regards to the differences in male/female in this condition and the "research" or "work" that you claim to have done.

ho hum ... ... ...

:-(

... these broad over-generalized claims.I think you'll find that I didn't -

- incidentally attention to detail is real important in science.

Stabile
and
SB_UK

are different words.

Hey, if I can learn to be more tolerant of spelling mistakes, syntax and grammar errors, you can deal. So sue them.

Variance (nice handle by the way), if you look around the forums, you will notice the subject of middle-aged women with ADHD/ADD asking other women if they are noticing negative changes in their ADHD/ADD as their bodies go through peri-menopause and menopause. There's a whole bunch of ADHD/ADD baby boomers and they're talking to each other.

Thanks =) It has a personal meaning to me in both its significance as a statistic variable and the definition. An actively changing mind/perception is the best one to me.

and yes. thank you for pointing that out. I'm looking through some of these discussions as time allows. however these are at best anecdotal evidence. Terrific for discussions and and generating hypothesis and theories. although they are not empiraclly viable evidence in science.

Interesting. Please expand on this idea.

Certainly,
While the symptoms associated with ADD/ADHD exist and the medication prescribed does help sufferes improve quality of life. and ADD itself exists. Diagnosing ADD itself isn't at question.

Trying to classify a "In-attentive" and "Hyper" subtype among others is imprecise as ADDers tend to have a co-morbidity with other disorders. ADD isn't a narrowly specific. it's rather broad with no single primary source(so far) and evidence points to the condition having many different contributing factors.

ADD would be best left broad with each case managed individually to manage the symptoms that disrupt their quality of life the most. not by some pre-determined protocol from a pigeon-holed sub-classification determined by a imprecise subjective(to the patient) behaviour check lists.

reaching for a metaphor... it's like satellite tv packages. You pick a package of channels and your stuck with stuff you don't want along with what you do want. you can't just pay "a la carte" for what you do want.


That may be true, but considering girls are often not diagnosed in childhood, I find it interesting that adult women are drawing the attention of someone. Menopause is sometimes when Mother Nature levels the playing field for men and women healthwise. Hormones help protect women from certain diseases. When those hormones are decreased or gone, the statistics change.

Girls not often diagnosed/underdiagnosed in childhood? I haven't heard of that. I'd like to know where/how you've gotten that impression.

I don't find it too interesting as I'm pretty cynical and ask what their reason for marketing it under that particular angle is. Probably notoreity/publicity or maybe they want funding for further research. female baby boomers are a very economically well to do population.

as for Menopause. if mother nature has a reason it is a pragmatistic one. it happens when women can no longer procreate/pass on their genes reliably.

this grandmother theory posits a explanation for the existence of menopause

he grandmother hypothesis is meant to explain why menopause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menopause), rare in mammal species, arose in human evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution), and how late life infertility could actually confer an evolutionary advantage. The hypothesis suggests that this is because of risks associated with pregnancy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregnancy) and childbirth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childbirth) and the relative importance of parental investment to the human species. Grandmotherly investment may also be important in the few other animals which experience menopause, such as whales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale). Kristen Hawkes (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kristen_Hawkes&action=edit&redlink=1) originated the hypothesis, and C.G. Williams (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=C.G._Williams&action=edit&redlink=1) was the first to posit that menopause may be protective. Both pregnancy and childbirth are extremely detrimental to the health and longevity of women. Pregnancy increases a woman’s caloric intake requirements and childbirth exposes women, especially older women, to deadly infections. For these reasons physical anthropologists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_Anthropology) think that older women in primitive times were less productive child bearers than younger women.
It is conceivable that older mothers that lost their fertility were able to spend more of their time helping, protecting and teaching their children and grandchildren. Such an investment of time is referred to by behaviorists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behaviorists) as parental investment. Experiments and observation have shown that those animals that have had time invested in them by family members, in the form of protection and education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education), are much more likely to live to the age at which they are able to reproduce.
On average, prehistoric women who experienced menopause may have lived longer lives and were better able to spend time supporting their children and their grandchildren. The progeny of these menopausal women benefited from additional parental investment and were therefore more likely to live to procreate. These progeny also benefited from inheriting their mother’s genes because these genes caused them to experience menopause and have more prosperous progeny of their own. This rationale is used by anthropologists to provide an evolutionary theory of menopause which holds that menopause in modern women is a remnant of a protective adaptation that allowed older females to better focus their maternal resources.
Alternatively, the debilitating symptoms that usually accompany menopause in Western cultures could be seen as a natural cull of non-reproductive members of a species. Hot flashes, loss of short term memory, decreased ability to concentrate and difficulty in the learning of new tasks would, in the wild, leave the sufferer at greater risk from predators and topographical dangers such as falls from a height. This natural cull would leave more food, usually in relatively short supply, for the reproductive members of a species whose youth could mean that they are less experienced at finding it. However, cross-cultural studies of menopause have found that menopausal symptoms are quite variable among different populations, and that some populations of females do not recognize, and may not even experience, these "symptoms." This high level of variability in menopausal symptoms across populations brings into question the plausibility of menopause as a sort of "culling agent" to eliminate non-reproductive females from competition with younger, fertile members of the species.
The grandmother theory appears to work because species continue to recognize, value, and therefore protect, closely related members of their species who would otherwise fall to predation. Only with this protection is the grandmother available to take a mentoring and supportive role.


I'd posit that while post-menopausal women do suffer symptoms that would classify them as ADD. it's not from the same origin or cause as other typical ADDers
but regardless of the cause/source. the treatment would still remain the same.

ho hum ... ... ...

:-(

I think you'll find that I didn't -

- incidentally attention to detail is real important in science.

Stabile
and
SB_UK

are different words.

LoL. I stand corrected.
you didn't make those claims
I ASSumed you were the same individual because you replied to a post directed at that individual

My sincere apologies.

as for Menopause. if mother nature has a reason it is a pragmatistic one. it happens when women can no longer procreate/pass on their genes reliably

Horse fritters - . Could it be we are simply out living our ability to reproduce and nature doesn't really give two hoots?

Ever consider the notion that living long enough to go through menopause is a recent event according to evolution?

How about some of that evidence you were asking other members to produce?

Here is my sources - those out side of my own experience of being prei-menopausal myself

Discovery Of The Oldest Remains Of A Woman Who Died In Childbirth (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041007084440.htm)

In ancient times, female death rates were particularly high and generally related to problems in maternity, such as complications during pregnancy, childbirth or the period of breast-feeding. However, in most cases this link has only been established from indirect data, such paleodemographic data and ethnographic references, or based on the poor health conditions normally attributed to ancient human groups

There also exists direct archaeological evidence of the high rate of female mortality in the child-rearing period

{End Quote}


How about some dealing with more recent events

Facts about Safe Motherhood (http://www.unfpa.org/mothers/facts.htm)

The risk of a woman dying as a result of pregnancy or childbirth during her lifetime is about 1 in 7 in Afghanistan and Sierra Leone compared with about 1 in 30,000 in Sweden.
{End Quote}

This last source is a not a study of ancient humans either - but modern ones.



This rationale is used by anthropologists to provide an evolutionary theory of menopause which holds that menopause in modern women is a remnant of a protective adaptation that allowed older females to better focus their maternal resources

Didn't you just jump on two other members for using their rational but you propose to pass of some anthropologist line of intellectual mumbo jumbo as if it were fact? Trying to tell me hot flashes and wrinkles are evolutionary - I think they just happened because I didn't die before getting older.


please do note the following exchanges

In our work, we've found evidence that indicates females are the original source of the changes in the human brain and mind that underlie AD/HD.

response

Here you word it as if you are a researcher holding at least a MD or a PhD or a primary on a science/medical journal by saying "In our work"you fail to cite sources or evidence for how/why females are the original source of changes in all of the human brain that underlie AD/HD.

Now take a load of this - tis really interesting

These progeny also benefited from inheriting their mother’s genes because these genes caused them to experience menopause and have more prosperous progeny of their own. This rationale is used by anthropologists to provide an evolutionary theory of menopause which holds that menopause in modern women is a remnant of a protective adaptation that allowed older females to better focus their maternal resources.
~Underlining mine~

Is this not saying the same thing - benefited from inheriting the mothers genes would mean genetic changes would come from the females line???


There are certain heredity factors that are passd down strictly from teh mother - michoconderial RNA- I can't spell it and my spell checker is clueless. Sorry it is past my bed time and I have a really bad head ache - which is why I can't sleep. Hopefully I will do better when I do not have a throbbing sensation every time my heart beats.

Alternatively, the debilitating symptoms that usually accompany menopause in Western cultures could be seen as a natural cull of non-reproductive members of a species. Hot flashes, loss of short term memory, decreased ability to concentrate and difficulty in the learning of new tasks would, in the wild, leave the sufferer at greater risk from predators and topographical dangers such as falls from a height. This natural cull would leave more food, usually in relatively short supply, for the reproductive members of a species whose youth could mean that they are less experienced at finding

In the "wild" few if any are learning new task If ya lived to go though menopause surviving was probably pretty old hat. I must mention this -to teh best of my knowledge in the "wild" few creatures die of old age - they are normally eaten or die of some sort of trauma just in case any one forgot what the wild is all about.


I'd posit that while post-menopausal women do suffer symptoms that would classify them as ADD. it's not from the same origin or cause as other typical ADDers but regardless of the cause/source. the treatment would still remain the same.

Huh? They do not treat menopausal women's short term memory problems the same as they do ADD women's memory problems That doesn't make any sense becuase you just said yourself that they were not the same cause or origin -

Cause / origin do determine treatment in most cases - at least in medicine as I understand it. One treats a sore throat caused by bacteria differently than one caused by too much screaming. .

I wonder how much hormones are part of the cause??

I know hormones effect how well my medication works – during times when I have high progesterone and less estrogen my medications do not work as well –




The scales of their study are not mentioned in specific.
It is difficult to impossible empirically delineate between effects caused by a ovulationand the effects of ADD.

How about if all women responding to your post indicate weather or not they are experiencing PMS or should we just let you guess – in a word malarkey –

In case more words are needed to justify malarkey
Actually ovulation doesn't happen all the time it cycles and can be determined by a couple of known methods - you can measure the hormones a woman is producing or go by early am body temperature, or look at her menstrual cycles. . . women ovulate a specified number of days after her cycle begins - 14 is a normal. The rest is deductive reasoning if a woman isn't ovulating then her ADD symptoms are not caused by it.


What do you mean? I'm a biology undergrad who loves neuroscience trying to get his GPA up for grad school. I've audited a few grad neuro classes and i've gone through a couple of neuropharm neurochem and neuropsych books.

Oh boy - here we go again.



I'm looking for credible research from medical journals supporting these broad over-generalized claims.

Round Two or is it three now – oh geez I loose count - I swear I am NOT ovulating. .. . that will be next week.



What would be helpful in making this discussion more productive is for you to be more specific and precise in what you claim is the source of ADHD, your claims with regards to the differences in male/female in this condition and the "research" or "work" that you claim to have done.


research okay . . . your turn

have fun (http://www.addforums.com/forums/search.php?searchid=668948&photoplog_searchinfo=1)






Adaption is, among other things, a change in response to a condition in the environment.
multi-tasking can be an adaption. as for the rest of this, it is inane and imprecise. What is your point.

Behavior can’t be a change in response – our social structure can’t be considered a condition in the environment –



Stabile
and
SB_UK

are different words.


Oh Man for a moment there I thought it was me . . . . those parallel universes get to me so confused some times .


it's rather broad with no single primary source(so far) and evidence points to the condition having many different contributing factors.

ADD inability to consciously control the direction of focus and length of attention span –

The empirical evidence – science may or may not have caught up yet – but that is what ADDers have in common – if I needed science and studies to understand my world I would still be learning to use the potty


I get tired of science trying to tell me how to be ADD – they tried telling me how to have dyslexia because there was no empirical evidence I couldn't claim to be processing words differently - hog wash Science is just now finding out that gee I do process words differently just like I said I did - imagine a dyslexic knowing dyslexia.

Just for kicks grins and giggles I have already written it down in a blog so I do not have to keep re-writing over and over and over

One more Time - Don't Tell Me how to be ADHD (http://www.addforums.com/forums/blog.php?b=119)

female baby boomers are a very economically well to do population.

Got stats for that =)

following up from ADDF::meadd823over-exuberance need be tempered with politeness -
- otherwise
it's
bullying.

From ADDF::Zach326 -
the wise are less and not more sure than control grouping.

The key to understanding the ADDF::Stabile argument is to begin with the classical dichotemy of the two broad classes -
- those of endorphin-class and dopamine-class endogenous and illicit family member organic chemical structures -
- and then simply to work the bases up

- from the classical interactions with their respective receptors -

- and then simply to work the bases up
-> up to the human experiential perspectives which we associate with agonism in these two enigmatic life-critical systems.

I've no particular desire for an evangelical sermon on the importance of the scientific method -
- all I'd like is for you to explain the transition from
molecular ->- through to ->- experiential effects of the two most pervasive classes of addictive and abused drugs -

- and why exactly am I asking this question of you ?

- because I want to know the answer -?-

... ... ... hell no !

- the solution will require extensive variance component re-modellling
:-) for your

own
personal
betterment.

Horse fritters - . Could it be we are simply out living our ability to reproduce and nature doesn't really give two hoots?

Ever consider the notion that living long enough to go through menopause is a recent event according to evolution?

How about some of that evidence you were asking other members to produce?

Here is my sources - those out side of my own experience of being prei-menopausal myself

Discovery Of The Oldest Remains Of A Woman Who Died In Childbirth (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041007084440.htm)

In ancient times, female death rates were particularly high and generally related to problems in maternity, such as complications during pregnancy, childbirth or the period of breast-feeding. However, in most cases this link has only been established from indirect data, such paleodemographic data and ethnographic references, or based on the poor health conditions normally attributed to ancient human groups

There also exists direct archaeological evidence of the high rate of female mortality in the child-rearing period

{End Quote}


I worded my argument poorly. no excuses for that.
I meant to portray a possible explanation.

as for source on the "grandmother hypothesis"

Alvarez HP. Grandmother hypothesis and primate life histories. American Journal of Physical Anthropology. 2000 Nov;113(3):435-50. PMID: 11042542
Melby, Melissa K. "Vasomotor symptom prevalence and language of menopause in Japan." Menopause. 12.3 (2005): 250-257.


How about some dealing with more recent events

Facts about Safe Motherhood (http://www.unfpa.org/mothers/facts.htm)

The risk of a woman dying as a result of pregnancy or childbirth during her lifetime is about 1 in 7 in Afghanistan and Sierra Leone compared with about 1 in 30,000 in Sweden.
{End Quote}

This last source is a not a study of ancient humans either - but modern third world societies. Not a good comparison to make towards ancient civilizations. (although this could be semantics depending on what region and time we want to talk about.)

Didn't you just jump on two other members for using their rational but you propose to pass of some anthropologist line of intellectual mumbo jumbo as if it were fact? Trying to tell me hot flashes and wrinkles are evolutionary - I think they just happened because I didn't die before getting older.

please do note the following exchanges

response

Which two members and what rational? I'm not sure I know which one in specific you are referring to.

Not an adaquate / in context comparison to birth-rates of ancient civilizations given the constant strife in those areas.

and apparently I wasn't careful enough with how I worded or how I intended to mean when putting forth those possible explainations.
I did not intend to portray them as definitive fact or a final conclusion.

and what I put forth wasn't mumbo jumbo. they are published theories that seem to be somewhat well known and have likely passed through some degree of academic review, although given that this isn't a field I am admittedly not immersed in. I won't actively defend it.

'twas meant as more of a anecdotal antagonistic counterpoint to "menopause is nature's way of evening things up" type thinking.


Now take a load of this - tis really interesting


~Underlining mine~

Is this not saying the same thing - benefited from inheriting the mothers genes would mean genetic changes would come from the females line???


There are certain heredity factors that are passd down strictly from teh mother - michoconderial RNA- I can't spell it and my spell checker is clueless. Sorry it is past my bed time and I have a really bad head ache - which is why I can't sleep. Hopefully I will do better when I do not have a throbbing sensation every time my heart beats.

In the "wild" few if any are learning new task If ya lived to go though menopause surviving was probably pretty old hat. I must mention this -to teh best of my knowledge in the "wild" few creatures die of old age - they are normally eaten or die of some sort of trauma just in case any one forgot what the wild is all about.

Huh? They do not treat menopausal women's short term memory problems the same as they do ADD women's memory problems That doesn't make any sense becuase you just said yourself that they were not the same cause or origin -

Cause / origin do determine treatment in most cases - at least in medicine as I understand it. One treats a sore throat caused by bacteria differently than one caused by too much screaming. .

I'll assume you mean mitochondrial DNA as that is passed from the mother through the ovum and sperm contains no mitochondria.

I meant ADD problems not short-term memory issues. although sometimes dopaminergic drugs can have positive effects on memory that's unrelated to the main point.

and I'll have to disagree with you quite frankly on this one aspect. because cause/origin is too simplistic to determine plan of care.

In the scenario you have presented
one treats the *SYMPTOM* of the sore throat the same.
If it ends up being bacterial then you take a relevant antibiotic on top of something that relieves the SYMPTOM of the sore throat.
the antibiotic treats the cause, then you have the symptom management.
sometimes they are the same. sometimes they are separate and complex.

If you have a fever and it's a basic cold. there is no cure for the common cold. you take a tylenol or nyquil and wait for your body to fight off the virus while the medicine you take treats the SYMPTOMS.

In conditions of ADD (people who have trouble focusing albeit with different symptoms. Note, I am not telling you how to be ADD)

This much holds true, that the manipulation of the concentrations of dopamine and/or norepinephine usually has a positive effect in managing their SYMPTOMS).

Managing the symptoms in the case of ADD can and usually is independent of the source/origin. (especially as the source/origin is often difficult to determine with certainty)

this is the point i was getting at.

and while comorbid conditions such as those you described can effect how effective ADD meds(first line treatments are stimulants usually) are, They are still the primary treatment with adjunctive things added depending on whatever else conditions may ail you. (which is why I was arguing the case for a person by person basis as people won't often fit into any one type)

I know hormones effect how well my medication works – during times when I have high progesterone and less estrogen my medications do not work as well –



How about if all women responding to your post indicate weather or not they are experiencing PMS or should we just let you guess – in a word malarkey –

In case more words are needed to justify malarkey
Actually ovulation doesn't happen all the time it cycles and can be determined by a couple of known methods - you can measure the hormones a woman is producing or go by early am body temperature, or look at her menstrual cycles. . . women ovulate a specified number of days after her cycle begins - 14 is a normal. The rest is deductive reasoning if a woman isn't ovulating then her ADD symptoms are not caused by it.



I wasn't thinking straight or critically when i wrote that.
admit it quite readily.



Oh boy - here we go again.


I never professed to be all knowing, a expert in the field.
so please don't take that as a logical fallacy of "appeal to authority"
I am more than aware that I am not.

That was actually to establish that my understanding is limited but that does not mean I still can't engage in discussion productively.

I learn more through give and take discussions like this and enjoy them.
I come across brash at times (probably a understatement) overenthusiastic and as someone else mentioned probably a bully at times because of my engaging style.. I won't apologize for my style because I think pleasantries, ego and feelings are a bit less necessary on a forum than in person. cutting straight to the chase.


make of that what you will.
however, unlike others I am very much willing to admit when I am wrong and when others are right, when I have been corrected and duely pwn3d. and I don't make excuses.

It's all in good fun and all in learning.


Round Two or is it three now – oh geez I loose count - I swear I am NOT ovulating. .. . that will be next week.


Ah yes. funny you made your point quite well =)






research okay . . . your turn

have fun (http://www.addforums.com/forums/search.php?searchid=668948&photoplog_searchinfo=1)


Yeah that wasn't directed at you. and wasn't directed at that other person either... I got mixed up. You can hammer it in a few more times if you like.






Behavior can’t be a change in response – our social structure can’t be considered a condition in the environment –

I'm not sure what you are referring to here.
I certainly wasn't referring to behaviour although that could come down the line as a result of natural selection.
and the adaption of "multi-tasking" was intended to be in a different context. that i neglected to put in, a very very "broad context" such as patting your head and rubbing your stomach. although yesi deserve to be slammed for forgetting it.

consequently these were directed towards stabile. not sb_uk
-yeah... i finally got the difference.... oh wait.. no i didn't might need a few more obvious slams to remind me... male short-term memory loss and all that. you understand right?







ADD inability to consciously control the direction of focus and length of attention span –

The empirical evidence – science may or may not have caught up yet – but that is what ADDers have in common – if I needed science and studies to understand my world I would still be learning to use the potty


I get tired of science trying to tell me how to be ADD – they tried telling me how to have dyslexia because there was no empirical evidence I couldn't claim to be processing words differently - hog wash Science is just now finding out that gee I do process words differently just like I said I did - imagine a dyslexic knowing dyslexia.

Just for kicks grins and giggles I have already written it down in a blog so I do not have to keep re-writing over and over and over

One more Time - Don't Tell Me how to be ADHD (http://www.addforums.com/forums/blog.php?b=119)


This, one thing I didn't do.
I never told you how to be ADD.

I was focusing on the origin or source for ADD and how there is no evidence linking a single primary contributor or cause for the condition.

not the definition of ADD or what ADD is or what ADD people are like.




Got stats for that =)

Your wish is my command:

http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032005/hhinc/new02_001.htm

Households of Baby Boomers have the highest median income.

over-exuberance need be tempered with politeness -
- otherwise
it's
bullying.

From ADDF::Zach326 -
the wise are less and not more sure than control grouping.

The key to understanding the ADDF::Stabile argument is to begin with the classical dichotemy of the two broad classes -
- those of endorphin-class and dopamine-class endogenous and illicit family member organic chemical structures -
- and then simply to work the bases up

- from the classical interactions with their respective receptors -

- and then simply to work the bases up
-> up to the human experiential perspectives which we associate with agonism in these two enigmatic life-critical systems.

I've no particular desire for an evangelical sermon on the importance of the scientific method -
- all I'd like is for you to explain the transition from
molecular ->- through to ->- experiential effects of the two most pervasive classes of addictive and abused drugs -

- and why exactly am I asking this question of you ?

- because I want to know the answer -?-

... ... ... hell no !

- the solution will require extensive variance component re-modellling
:-) for your

own
personal
betterment.

Politeness is overrated in forums. this is impersonal and about discussion.
let's agree that it's not about ego's and that we won't take anything personally. It's about getting closer to truth.

as for this. I know all this.
especially the molecular to the experimental effects and all the questions that still remain with regards to the full effects as a linear approach doesn't always work the best in neurochemistry to describe the full effect of a given substance on the brain. due to the many branching and diverging mechanisms.

I'm not exactly sure what point you wanted to hammer into me as this seems rather vague and I'm usually keen on contextual clues.

This has nothing to do with proving females are the source of ADD as stabile's claim was (and yes i know the difference between you and her NOW) thanks to the grace of god I've finally been enlightened and humbled.

she still cannot believe the effect of medication
...
'never felt this way before' - she describes it as.
...
everything was too much -
there's this incapacity to know whether what's going on in one's head is actually how it's meant to be
...
no joy
...
dropping out from the dream is too painful
...
because her words are lost to anxiety
- in the face of another imposing themselves unfairly upon her -
...
amazing things -
she feels as though she's been cheated of life by not knowing that life in nonADD world could have been this much easier with meds


wow, thanks :)

I'd posit that while post-menopausal women do suffer symptoms that would classify them as ADD.I am interested in your knowledge base about the symptoms of menopause. It is a myth that all women suffer uncomfortable symptoms with menopause. It is probably more common for women to seek treatment for peri-menopause.

Variance, have you done much research on Asperger Syndrome?

Politeness is overrated in forums. this is impersonal and about discussion.
What authority had been given to you to decree that?

There may be forums out there that have that character, but in this place people come primarily for support, and the empathy of others is the thing that almost everyone seems to like here.

And even then: as the song goes .. "A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down" .. even in serious, hard-scientific discussion, being at least formally polite is the norm. Intelligence and empathy are not mutually exclusive.

I'm now a born again christian.
(...)
thanks to the grace of god I've finally been enlightened and humbled.
What's that got to do with it?

Girls not often diagnosed/underdiagnosed in childhood? I haven't heard of that. I'd like to know where/how you've gotten that impression.Gee - take any book or general text about ADD and it's there: "ADD girls are usually missed because they often have the inattentive variety. They tend to be shy, introverted and quiet" - or words to that degree.

experimental


I didn't write that -
I've never been misquoted twice before also -

are you playing with us?

my post rests on the word you've switched.
You have a very familiar style you know.

I am interested in your knowledge base about the symptoms of menopause. It is a myth that all women suffer uncomfortable symptoms with menopause. It is probably more common for women to seek treatment for peri-menopause.

Variance, have you done much research on Asperger Syndrome?


Variance, have you done much research on Asperger Syndrome?

Where'd Spock be without Kirk ?

(that is irrelevant Captain)

worded my argument poorly. no excuses for that.
I meant to portray a possible explanation.

Okay thanks I am over it – I wasn’t mad –I tend to match perceived tone – not necessarily a purposeful act but one that is difficult for me to avoid – also some times I also appear angry when I am not. . . . getting carried away and ADD thing and for some reason those who are in college who have a passion for their specific area tend to com eon pretty strong – I didn’t take it personally – we have some very passionate people come through . . . .

as for source on the "grandmother hypothesis"

Alvarez HP. Grandmother hypothesis and primate life histories. American Journal of Physical Anthropology. 2000 Nov;113(3):435-50. PMID: 11042542
Melby, Melissa K. "Vasomotor symptom prevalence and language of menopause in Japan." Menopause. 12.3 (2005): 250-257.

Normally I would ask for hyperlinks because I am lazy but I probably read these last night – and they are still someone’s educated guess – no real knowledge there – just because some one is more educated doesn’t necessarily make them better at guessing.


Not an adaquate / in context comparison to birth-rates of ancient civilizations given the constant strife in those areas.

Umm and ancient civilizations weren’t in constant strife – man all ya got to do is read out of the old testament in the Bible – they talk a lot about war in there. – and over in those area umm that is supposedly where we all originated – Darwin and migration and all that jive. . .. so try again perhaps



twas meant as more of a anecdotal antagonistic counterpoint to "menopause is nature's way of evening things up" type thinking.

You have got to be male – no menopause doesn’t even any thing up – the next guy I see having PMS bloating , period cramps and/or a hot flash, breast tenderness out side of cancer and morphdical anatomy I shall recant –



and while comorbid conditions such as those you described can effect how effective ADD meds(first line treatments are stimulants usually) are, They are still the primary treatment with adjunctive things added depending on whatever else conditions may ail you. (which is why I was arguing the case for a person by person basis as people won't often fit into any one type)

YIKES . . . . no no no no and no – treat bi-polar with ADD medications and you hads better hope the person has a pleasant mania – often bi-polar and ADD look alike – I know I was diagnosed bi-polar before – but just to make sure life is really confusing bi-polar and ADD also like to keep each other company . . . while hypomania can look a lot like hyperactive ADD which is how I was misdiagnosed – depression can look a lot like inattentive ADD – please note depression effects the attention span also –


This much holds true, that the manipulation of the concentrations of dopamine and/or norepinephine usually has a positive effect in managing their SYMPTOMS).

Well unless it is counter productive – ADD medications can actually make some conditions that mimic ADD worse.

Not all medications address the same thing in the same manner

Forget the Neurotransmitters ( http://www.mcmanweb.com/article-191.htm)

You can mess all you want with serotonin and dopamine, etc,” Dr Manji told his audience at UCLA, “but if you don’t have the appropriate [cell] circuitry in place it’s not going to have any effect.”
{end Quote}

Kind of have to agree with this statement it kind of makes sense


over-exuberance need be tempered with politeness -
- otherwise
it's
bullying.

If I was too pushy I apologize – I try to reserve over exuberance for the college going crowd – I remember that feeling – so I will rescind and allow another to enjoy the brief moment - :o


I am honored my response was worthy of two separate posting but this is the third debate thread and my first was a doozy so I am going to have to nap – brain needs sleep or it get really weird – some time pleasantly strange but other times not so pleasantly daft ***ch I never know which one I am going to be until it is too late – but I shall return and finish my response - later to day – okay I plan to . . .

And back in the 1930's and before they had the "rule of thumb" -- that a man could not beat his wife with a stick that was bigger around than his thumb. I'm afraid a lot of us ADD women would have had a rough time of it -- instead of being yelled at -- we'd have been beaten.:(

I know it doesn't matter to the thread necessarily, but apparently that's not true. :)

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000512.html

I too observed in my study that comparing girls to boys--using boys' ADHD symptoms as the marker against which girls should be measured.

Knowledge of ADHD in women at this time is extremely limited as few studies have been conducted on this population1,2. Women have only recently begun to be diagnosed and treated for ADHD, and today, most of what we know about this population is based on the clinical experience of mental health professionals who have specialized in treating women.

Impact of ADHD in Women

Females with ADHD are often overlooked when they are young girls3,4, the reasons for which remain unclear, and are not diagnosed until they are adults. Frequently, a woman comes to recognize her own ADHD after one of her children has received a diagnosis. As she learns more about ADHD, she begins to see many similar patterns in herself.
Some women seek treatment for ADHD because their lives are out of control—their finances may be in chaos; their paperwork and record–keeping are often poorly managed; they may struggle unsuccessfully to keep up with the demands of their jobs; and they may feel even less able to keep up with the daily tasks of meals, laundry, and life management5. Other women are more successful in hiding their ADHD, struggling valiantly to keep up with increasingly difficult demands by working into the night and spending their free time trying to "get organized." But whether a woman's life is clearly in chaos or whether she is able to hide her struggles, she often describes herself as feeling overwhelmed and exhausted6.
While research in women continues to lag behind that in adult males with ADHD, many clinicians are finding significant concerns and co–existing conditions in women with ADHD. Compulsive overeating, alcohol abuse, and chronic sleep deprivation may be present in women with ADHD7,8,9.
Women with ADHD often experience dysphoria (unpleasant mood), major depression and anxiety disorders, with rates of depressive and anxiety disorders similar to those in men with ADHD10. However, women with ADHD appear to experience more psychological distress and have lower self–image than men with ADHD11,12.
Compared to women without ADHD, women diagnosed with ADHD in adulthood are more likely to have depressive symptoms, are more stressed and anxious, have more external locus of control (tendency to attribute success and difficulties to external factors such as chance), have lower self–esteem, and are engaged more in coping strategies that are emotion–oriented (use self–protective measures to reduce stress) than task–oriented (take action to solve problems)2.
Studies show that ADHD in a family member causes stress for the entire family13. However, stress levels may be higher for women than men because they bear more responsibility for home and children. In addition, recent research suggests that husbands of women with ADHD are less tolerant of their spouse's ADHD patterns than wives of men with ADHD14. Chronic stress takes its toll on women with ADHD, affecting them both physically and psychologically. Women who suffer chronic stress like that associated with ADHD are more at risk for diseases related to chronic stress such as fibromyalgia15.
Thus, it is becoming increasingly clear that the lack of appropriate identification and treatment of ADHD in women is a significant public health concern.



http://www.addresources.org/article_adhd_women_chadd.php

YIKES . . . . no no no no and no – treat bi-polar with ADD medications and you hads better hope the person has a pleasant mania – often bi-polar and ADD look alike (...)
I've read about this too .. that stimulants can not only make someone who is bipolar worse, but even make further treatment of the bipolar(ity?) less effective or even impossible (dont remember it exactly)

I have seen ADD medication completely change the personalities of folks with bipolar II -so far every thing I have read about this recommends that the bi-polar be treated first - if they still have ADD symptoms then they can be more safely addressed. I have found that people in my family that suffer from bi-polar needed a lot less ADD medication once their bipolar was under control - thus my no no no and no - I know from personal experience that treating some conditions that interfere with mood with ADD medications can be the wrong thing to do. . . .

Green text means I am posting as a moderator NOT presenting a peer opinion –



Politeness is overrated in forums. this is impersonal and about discussion..

When you joined this community you agreed to abide by our guidelines (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15843) – part of those guidelines included


Etiquette:

*Please remember that ADD Forums is a place for support. All members should feel comfortable at ADD Forums!

*Please be respectful to one another. People come from all different backgrounds and many have different ideas and views on different issues.

*Treat your fellow members with courtesy (especially if you disagree with them).

So as a member of staff I must insist on a degree of politeness to be exercised by all members.

To avoid post edits and/or further staff actions please comply with the following guideline-



Avoid direct insults to any member of the forums. Everyone should be treated with the same degree of respect. The goal should be to give constructive criticism with source documentation given where possible to back up your opinions while using common sense, respect, and courtesy. Treat others as you would like to be treated.

* While forums are meant for debate, flaming or forcing your opinions on other members without regard to their feelings is uncalled for. This does not mean that you can't post sensitive issues or get into heated debates; it just means you have to use some common sense and courtesy when posting your opinions/views/debates. People intentionally posting to create flame wars will be dealt with by the moderators or administrators through warnings and bans as they see fit.



~Bold and underlining in quotes added by me for emphasis!~


Every one's attention to this matter will be greatly appreciated.


Good day


Topic reminder

Study: ADHD affects adult women more than men

***Any concerns or questions regarding this moderator note or staff actions should be private messaged directly to staff, this will prevent further disruption of the discussion. Thank you.***

Black text means I am posting as a fellow ADDF member this info is mentioned for those who are fairly new . . .:)

meadd823 Purposefully ignoring all the emotionally laden drama so we can move forward with the topic of discussion . . . . .


I think the idea that women are effected by ADD worse would be better phrased that women with ADD experience a double whammy - I understand titles are all about generating interest in reading the body of text so I won't hold that against the author of the article presented in the initial post :rolleyes:

I do have another article that I believe might explain this idea a little better



Estrogen and the Brain (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/406718_2)

Estrogen has been shown to protect isolated neurons in vitro from oxidative stress, ischemic injury, hypoglycemic injury, and damage by amyloid protein, which is implicated in the pathogenesis of Alzheimer's disease. It also stimulates production of nerve growth factors, thereby promoting neuronal growth and viability, repair of damaged neurons, and dendritic branching. Brain aging and Alzheimer's disease are thought to represent an imbalance between neuronal injury and repair.

At neuronal synapses, estrogen increases the concentration of neurotransmitters such as serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine. It affects their release, reuptake, and enzymatic inactivation. It also increases the number of receptors'forthese neurotransmitters.

Another significant effect of estrogen on the brain is its influence on blood supply. Unlike many other organs, which can use reserve fuel sources or alternative metabolic pathways, the brain depends solely on blood flow to function. In fact, roughly one-third of the brain is composed of blood vessels. Estrogen increases cerebral perfusion, presumably by mechanisms similar to those known to occur in the coronary arteries. By binding to receptors in the endothelium, estrogen stimulates the release of nitric oxide, which causes vasodilation.


Even in healthy older women, brain volume begins to decline as estrogen levels fall in the perimenopausal period. This atrophy occurs particularly in the hippocampus and parietal lobe, areas primarily associated with memory and cognition. A similar loss in brain volume does not begin in men until a decade later (around age 60), most likely because male sex hormone production declines much more gradually with age. In fact, because of aromatization of testosterone to estrogen, men over the age of 60 have approximately three times more circulating estradiol than women of a similar age.

In women, these cerebral changes may contribute to the frequent perimenopausal complaints of decreased mental clarity and short-term, verbal memory problems

{yeehaa more verbal memory problems and brain fog- like we don't have enough already Any of you gals looking forward to that? - I know I am not! Oh and there is more - unfortunately}


Another effect of menopause and loss of estrogen on the brain is a slowdown in the speed of brain processing. This change is particularly significant for postural stability, which depends on recognition of sensory input and initiation of an appropriate physical response. After menopause, the incidence of falls among women is three times that of men.The risk of fracture in women with osteoporosis appears to be related not only to bone density, but also to postural stability.


n addition, up to 80% of perimenopausal women develop mild depressive symptoms beyond the malaise that might be attributed to hot flushes, night sweats, and insomnia. These symptoms may occur because areas of the brain involved in emotion are rich in estrogen receptors and estrogen directly influences synaptic concentrations of neurotransmitters.

The neurotransmitter serotonin plays a key role at brain synapses involved in mood regulation. In oophorectomized rats, administration of estradiol induced a significant increase in serotonin uptake in the frontal cortex and hypothalamus. Also in rats, the antidepressant imipramine did not exert its therapeutic effect on synaptic concentrations of serotonin unless estrogen was present.

{End Quote = that's enough}

~underling and bold in source mine~

This is why the grandmother theory was not plausible to me - there doesn't seem to be to much geared toward increased survival. With decreased ability to maintain balance especially when changing positions rapidly it doesn't look like menopausal females were physically being out fitted by nature to chase toddlers though the living room much less the wilderness - so I shall stick my my original idea = the rule of most women living to be old enough to go through menopause is relatively new in to the species of human - new pertaining to the evolutionary clock . . . the sources I provided previously seem to indicate back in the hunter gather days women living to reach menopause was probably more of an exception than a rule .

In my opinion which I have backed up using the above source documentation

It seems to be a combination of the ADD already present and the on-set of menopause that suck - for reasons I mentioned and backed up with documentation from credible sites. Other reading I have done seems to indicate when these hormones fluctuate even during our normal cycles apparently so do our neurotransmitters.

We would have thought it obvious that the first place to look for further reference to the work we mentioned in our post was here, in the various fora in which we’ve posted quite a bit over the last several years.

I don’t think there’s anything imprecise about what we wrote, but I’ll try to give a bit more information anyway, hopefully without clouding the stage with too much detail.

We’ve been engaged in a study of particular gender related anomalies in human communication for over forty years. Much of this has been pursued independently, but it’s all based on rigorous underpinnings. And none of it was pursued in a vacuum, although the peer group privileged to the details as we worked was often fairly restricted.

The reasons for that can be argued later and elsewhere. What we did was carefully build a model of human communication, starting from the neural level. For our models of neural function we adopted most of James Albus’ early work, still as valid (and important) today as it was when he published it in the Seventies.

So you might want to start there. Look for copies of his dissertation and the first two or three papers he extracted from that. We added little over the years, but the following is important: by careful analysis over ten years, we determined that his models are both general and sufficient.

That is, they are applicable to the entire brain, and they can be applied to generate every recognized human neural function. This includes consciousness, complex models of social behavior, and the elements of human communication we needed to make progress on our original problem.

Much interesting subsidiary detail emerged as fallout from this process, as might be expected given the scope of the effort. One element was a complete model of the original speciation event that gave rise to h. Sapiens. Along with this came an understanding of the evolutionary processes involved that created a whole new set of difficulties.

Principally, we realized that the ordinary models we all hold of our own evolutionary heritage have been ‘manipulated’ by selection forces in ways that are still largely unrecognized. (Some current work is beginning to find similar results, but as of yet the field is still pretty scattered. Lots of bits and pieces, though, all of which support our models perfectly.)

Our term for the way our self-perception has been manipulated is ‘black holes’. Whatever you call it, the most significant detail is this: all higher primates have two contradictory mating strategies, that is, two sets of predefined behaviors that would normally require completely different self models to integrate successfully.

The multitasking we referred to is an adaptation that allows females to develop consistent internal models capable of distinguishing the two different modes of behavior, despite the existing mechanisms that have selected to disguise the contradictions.

Most people, particularly males, are reluctant to approach this subject. For males, it’s threatening at a fundamental level. For females, it’s threatening on a different level, one at which they have to face the less desirable aspects of the experience of being female and living with the coarser of the two mating strategies.

Any discussion of what drives differences in the experience of males and females must at least acknowledge these powerful, fundamental elements, or risk the conclusions being marginalized before they’re even formed.

So far, people haven’t been very successful at getting all the elements on the table for discussion, and the conclusions naturally suffer as a result. We keep bringing it up, and most of y’all keep shying away, no matter how scientific and rigorous individual members view their own effort.

Interesting communications problem, isn’t it?

black holes’. Whatever you call it, the most significant detail is this: all higher primates have two contradictory mating strategies, that is, two sets of predefined behaviors that would normally require completely different self models to integrate successfully.two different modes of behaviorMale<>Female
:confused:

I find that James Albus, did some sort of Marr-Albus theory, theory of cerebellar function. :confused: Need more inputs
ah
http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/585056.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellum#Theories_about_cerebellar_function

So, all these matters and differences of importance,
revolve around the cerebellum??

cerebellum--reminds me of choice, but anyway*just associational impulse

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///////.......................///////.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellum

To envision this "perpendicular array," one might imagine a tree-lined street with wires running straight through the branches of one tree to the next.<sup class="noprint Inline-Template">[clarify (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify)]</sup>
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/CajalCerebellum.jpg/300px-CajalCerebellum.jpg

////////////
////////////
///////- . -//
/////////\//
........................__
...||||||.............|/
...||||||.............|\
//..\./.................|
//...||................|
///.||.///..........|
////////...........

.._____
..\...........()_\ ||||| > x axis > () on zy plane
.......\.....()__\ (_
_________ radiating on xz plane_
...........()
..........())
.........() ^ y axis ^ () on xz plane

()

and
. ___
|.....|
|___|

and

|

are all rings

simplifies to

x -> twist
->->.._ _ _
.x.-.>._ _ _
.^
.|
|.|
|.|
|.|

the metalevel

====o====

o -> a ninety degree twist in three dimensional space
.._ ._
/ ....../
==.o..|
....||.|
....||./

Male<>Female
:confused:

I find that James Albus, did some sort of Marr-Albus theory, theory of cerebellar function. :confused: Need more inputs
ah
http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/585056.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebellum#Theories_about_cerebellar_function

So, all these matters and differences of importance,
revolve around the cerebellum??

cerebellum--reminds me of choice, but anyway*just associational impulse

Albus’ work focused on structure within the cerebellum, arguably the most regular part of the brain in terms of its organization at a cellular level. What he did (that is still unmatched) is decode the logical structure that the physical structure supports, and formulate a general model of how that logical organization establishes function.

As I mentioned in the previous post we extended his work in a rather modest way, by establishing to our satisfaction that his basic logical model of neural function is truly general (all neural structures in the brain work in the same way, albeit without displaying the same regularity of physical arrangement) and sufficient (i.e., the model of logical operation is all you need to derive any observed neural function).

There are several simple (and lucky, for Jim Albus) reasons that the cerebellum demonstrates such physical regularity, and also that the physical regularity mirrors an underlying logical regularity.

The same constraints don’t apply to most of the rest of the brain, although there are a few examples. Some of the organization of the visual cortex displays a similar (but generally more abstract) logical regularity.

Most of Albus’ later work diverged from his original theses research; he enjoyed a long and relatively lustrous career at NIST, retiring a few years ago. We met him at a conference in 1977, where he demonstrated his CMAC model operating in an early MITS 8080-based microcomputer.

To answer the original question, no, the differences are logical, and mainly revolve around the cerebrum, the self-model(s), the ordinary experience of living with models of others in the internal conscious context, and the task of decoding meaning in their (and your own) observed behavior.

The internal logical neural models that encode your understanding of behavior related to the two mating strategies will not properly converge on a stable form without the aid of something extra, something that was not present when selection ‘created’ the black holes that ordinarily mask the contradictions inherent.

A logical neural model failing to converge is the definition of ambiguity, exactly what you have when there are contradictory inputs into any system. By developing the ability to multitask (in effect, having two or more internal self-models active simultaneously), a more complex form of logical model can be developed that does converge in the presence of the conflicting input.

That allows you to deal with the related behavior effectively (something that is impossible without a well-converged model, obviously). Dealing with the lack of similar models in others is much more difficult, as should be obvious by now. (grins)

Some people get the basics with little trouble, like SB and Tammy and some other members. But everyone (including us) has some trouble dealing with the social implications.

from the posts on the cerebellum above
and
~s (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=439480&postcount=32) ource~

~s (http://emedicine.com/neuro/topic522.htm) ource~
(http://emedicine.com/neuro/topic522.htm)Drug Name
Methylphenidate (Ritalin)
Description
Piperidine derivative most commonly prescribed;


and also

wikiP/Piperidine
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piperidine)the main active chemical agent in black pepperblack piperidine is the very embodiment of HEAVEN

Autosomal dominant cerebellar ataxia, deafness, and narcolepsy

~s (http://adc.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/87/4/333) ource~
Unusual cerebellar ataxia: "worm wobble"
We present an unusual case of cerebellar ataxia in a 2 year old girl several days after treatment with piperazine citrate for suspected worm infestation. This is the first reported case of delayed onset neurotoxicity following the therapeutic administration of piperazine in a previously well child.
this mortal coil

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Dermatoms.svg/180px-Dermatoms.svg.png


http://www.electricityforum.com/images/235a.gif

~*~

We live in a world of electromagnetism

From above :

o--( )o--( )o--( )o--( )--o

( ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )
| ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) |
o ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) o

E -> <- E (~aka~ M) -> EM as AC E (switching directionality)

How?

-(-)-(-)-(-)-

An electrical circuit with central electricalflow which switches direction-
how?

make the circuit a ring
.
-(-)-(-)-(-)-
==
-->---<--

->-
. <
( )
..>

~*~

Unusual cerebellar ataxia: "worm wobble"

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j132/sb_camsci/thisMortalcoil.gif

and

http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j132/sb_camsci/tick-follows-tock.gif

worms wobble in' to a defined beat

~*~

-> cerebellar ataxia and epilepsy

~s (http://jnnp.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/78/2/187) ource~
Anti-glutamic acid decarboxylase (GAD) antibodies are describedin stiff-person syndrome and also in other neurological syndromes,including cerebellar ataxia and epilepsy.

~s (http://www.electricarticles.com/display.aspx?id=584) ource~

Piperazine:
USE: Piperazine is an organic compound used as an anti-parasitic in veterinary medicine, primarily for worms. Piperazine works through anthelmintic action (used to expel or destroy parasitic worms in the gastro-intestinal tract). Their mode of action is generally by paralysing parasites, which allows the host body to easily remove or expel the invading organism. This action is mediated by its agonist effects upon the inhibitory GABA receptor (the chief inhibitory neurotransmitter in the vertebrate central nervous system). Its selectivity for worms and similar invertebrates is because vertebrates only use GABA in the Central Nervous System and a worms GABA receptor is a different isoform


peppercorn (structure - dodecahedron)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Sa-pepper.jpg/180px-Sa-pepper.jpg
piperidine

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Piperidine.svg/100px-Piperidine.svg.png

dodecahedron - pentagonal sides - looking hexagonal in a certain orientation (previously described on ADDF)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Pyrrole.png/300px-Pyrrole.png

pyrrole

- assemble pyrroles into a dodecahedron -
and regard -
apparence of hexagon

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:Sma7IqvV9qCtMM:http://www.unifiedworlds.com/dodecahedron.jpg


Point of this post

The cerebellum (little brain) has a big brother
- however the two share much in common.

input -> cerebellum (in worm)
input -> everted so that the output resulted in a effect versus affect motion in the worm -
---explanation---
worm approaches a bump in the ground
- the nerves are compressed (afferent system) -
resulting in a conversion of these afferent systems into an efferent signal which causes the longitudinal muscular motion of the worm to react against the impediment -
and crawl over it.

The nervous system generates as an afferent-efferent composite -
whereby an eversion of the afferent signal -
leads to an effect -
overcoming obstacles.

The two trains of nervous impulse are eversions of one another -

{{{afferent signal}}} -> <- {{{efferent signal}}}

(((external object against worm neural signals}}} -> <- {{{everted reaction to that other signal}}}
->- linear motion

This duality of eversion between input and output -
is going to prove to be a hall mark of the evolution of the nervous beyond its first days as a non-plastic co-ordinating mechanism simply supporting co-ordinated 'peristalytic' motion of the simple worm.

The cerebellum receives signals from the affect of the external environment on the organism's peripheral environment sensing machinery.

The cerebellum (little brain) - also receives signals from the higher machinery of the :-)
big brain.

It needs translate both.

Input -> Output.

When we see a face - we see it as -
http://sp1.yt-thm-a01.yimg.com/image/25/f10/312521908

and not as we should -
as

http://sp1.yt-thm-a01.yimg.com/image/25/f11/171323012

- a composite of two sides of the face as everted opposites -
and not symmetrical 2d sides - in interpolated 3d space

though clearly -

http://sp1.yt-thm-a02.yimg.com/image/25/m8/3995997262

we are starting so to do

:-)

Point

posts relating to

cerebellum
mating strategies

(where the worm likes darkness and the moth is drawn to the light

flame)

- mating strategies -
the pattern is to mate amongst our 'kind'
and then to
'mix it up until there are no pedigrees'

red hot chilli peppers - with black peppercorn side salad

- mixing it up - signals an end to evolutionary progress on that level -
mixing it up - represents regression to the mean -
represents increased variability (not decreased)
- higher information content
(compare dichotemous binary traits (Tall,Small) with quantitiative continuous traits (Height))
higher informational content in recording the population as their value - rather than Tall or Small status.

... ... ... {{{more to follow in an ADD second}}}

But everyone (including us) has some trouble dealing with the social implications.

genetic template
- evolution by mutation (a 'strong' physical organism)
- recombination
- regression to the mean

mental template
- evolution by competition between explanations of reality (a 'strong' mental organism)
- recombination
- regression to the mean

spiritual template
herald an end to physical desires
mental longings
But everyone (including us) has some trouble dealing with the social implications.

social implications
- the desire for physical and mental wealth - are shown to be related to getting to some place which cannot be imagined prior to getting to that place -

the dawning awareness that

money can't buy you love
as often repeated by hallucinogenic creepy crawlies

and

vedanta (end of knowledge)
as often repeated by creepy crawlies on hallucinogens

represent the dawning awareness of their replacement

so that'd be

brand new day
New Day Rising
5 minutes to midnight
Midnight in a Perfect World
Wake up

"Sunset" – 5:58
"Aerial Tal" – 1:01
"Somewhere in Between" – 5:00
"Nocturn" – 8:34
"Aerial" – 7:52

The shift from sun down to sun up - with a new mode of communication.

802.11
BOD.II(s)

human BODIIes doin' the wireless telepatty.

This is a great topic, we have some well-researched opinions here.

I am compelled to make a completely non-scientific contribution :)

My experience as an adult female (recently diagnosed), is that I have never known "quiet" inside my head, until being dx'd and therapized (my term btw, not in the dictionary) :rolleyes: My husband is the prototype for mentally well...he can listen to my experience, he can know the facts, but he doesn't (isn't possible for him to "feel" me...that sounds really bad, I know...sorry I can't think of a more proper way to describe it) :p And I have the hardest time understanding what it's like in his mind, well, I have been vastly unsuccessful at achieving that... It causes strife at times, the communication challenges between us (that's another thread tho).

My brother has adult add, I have the "H" variety. ADD doesn't seem to have had the negative impact on his life thus far...in fact his creativity and hyperfocus have made him incredibly successful. I, on the other hand, have pretty much lived my life either too far inside my mind or too far out of it...

As with any other deviation from society's standard for mental health, the prevalence and effects of ADHD differ between men and women...and much of the variance may be due to nurture/environment's impact on genetic expression. There are infinite possibilities, but typically mother nature doesn't split 50/50...well-researched and properly performed studies can detect patterns...

Oh, referring to the 2nd post in this thread, anxiety meds have saved my life. I have a strong family history of mental "deviations", one of whom (my mother) has Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). She has never taken meds, and I believe she has wasted away her life's potential, and completely isolated herself from loved ones...I wish she would take meds.

Besides, the purpose of these meds is to improve our quality of life. And depression, anxiety, inattentiveness (ie while driving) can be fatal. Living in the current state of our society can drive sane people mad (that's what I tell myself when I need an esteem boost :)) The need for medication might be more prevalent than ever before, while more information and technology is increasingly advanced, almost exponentially it seems. I don't care if my medication is overprescribed: it helps me...a lot.

…the communication challenges between us (that's another thread tho)…
(grins) Well, not as far as we’re concerned, but we do tend to be a bit biased on that particular subject.

(“It’s all ball bearings these day, Vern. Get with it. Geeze…”)

I don't care if my medication is overprescribed: it helps me...a lot.
Yup, and we’re not really sure the former is true, anyway. AD/HD is still underdiagnosed, especially in women. Overprescribed is just another way of saying we’re getting our drugs despite the lag in recognition.

(Although: the statistical picture of that is moving at the speed of an imminent emergent event; there are significant differences in the female experience between half-generations now, and the pace quickens as we speak.)

Good post, BTW.

Didn't read any posts to this thread, just the title of it....One word: BULL#HIT!

Didn't read any posts to this thread, just the title of it....One word: BULL#HIT!Care to expand on that? One-liners are such a let-down after some of the previous posts. :P

I'm glad someone already debunked the "Rule of thumb" urban legend. In case Variance is still watching this thread and in need of concrete indications that underdiagnosis of AD/HD does indeed relate to gender (and ethnicity, and economic status, for that matter), one 2001 study by Regina Bussing, MD is discussed here: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/418614

Additionally, online sources I've come across refer to two studies conducted at Berkeley in 2002 by Stephen Hinshaw (cf. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-10/uoc--aig092502.php)

Also, look at just about anything Kathleen Nadeau and Patricia Quinn* have written on the subject: http://www.addvance.com/help/women/index.html

Finally, I'd say there's no such thing as a truth, out there somewhere, waiting to be uncovered by someone, then pointed out to others. What we do have is a plethora of situated knowledges, which I find quite exciting, really.

*Not the woman who was Magenta in the Rocky Horror Picture Show. That would have been awesome, wouldn't it?

I wonder how much hormones are part of the cause??

Actually men have more hormonal fluctuations than women.

And everytime someone says something like this, a feminist dies.

The internal logical neural models that encode your understanding of behavior related to the two mating strategies will not properly converge on a stable form without the aid of something extra, something that was not present when selection ‘created’ the black holes that ordinarily mask the contradictions inherent.

I've always wondered whether there may be a similar class of processes that shape the organisation of the emergent structures that so elegantly, er, I would almost say 'encourage' the disentanglement of previously unrelated, individual tendencies on a cellular or even molecular level where the combination of semipermeable membranes and a basic self replicating code may function as a bootstrap, that, when more or less properly aligned in the phase space of all possible evolutionary permutations, almost can be said to "actively seek out" the path of highest probability, although I realise it is grossly inadequate to use the imagery of a scalar quantity like 'highest' for visualising a process that can be compared to the collapse of the wave function, albeit in infinitely more dimensions, which traces out the possible scenarios in which, and I want to stress this point, it is even thinkable that outcomes like "two mating strategies" are but one of the viable alternatives - which can be illustrated by the occurrence of other-numbered mechanisms in certain species: but nevertheless, it is indeed "convergence" that is observed in a staggering multitude of cases. And this really makes a strong case for a virtually abstract necessity of event horizons that can shield the diversions, who do so with a surprising efficiency that harkens back to a ptolemian similarity of micro- and macrocosmos, or, rather, boldly illustrates the fractal nature of reality as "Das Ding An Sich", because the Cosmic Censor seems to manifest itself not only in the rather extreme reaches that surround the gravitational singularity, but also in the seemingly everyday world of sexual reproduction. The naked singularity remains hidden.

Now isn't that something ..

I've always wondered whether there may be a

similar class of processes that shape the organisation of the emergent structures
architecture of a generic class model of objects
objects as [structures]
that so elegantly, er, I would almost say 'encourage' the disentanglement of previously unrelated, individual tendencies on a cellular
[structure] [discipline]
[cell]
or even molecular level
[DNA],[protein]
where the combination of semipermeable membranes
[B][cellular interface]
and a basic self replicating code
[B][DNA],[protein] [reproduction]
may function as a bootstrap,
[B]cogs or rings turning one another
that, when more or less properly aligned in the phase space of all possible <- difficult term to use
evolutionary permutations,
almost can be said to "actively seek out" the path of highest probability,
[B] new emergent structure is conferred and then is made to work optimally
[speciation -> physiological optimisation]n cycles
-> evolutionary speciation event etc
although I realise it is grossly inadequate to use the imagery of a scalar quantity like 'highest'
everything is an anchored scalar - anchored to 'change' - as long as we measure ourselves relative to something else which is itself anchored -
we can get away with making scalars
'effective vectors'
for visualising a process that can be compared to the collapse of the wave function,
Bohm's hidden variable
(the vector switching 'space' are just anchored scalars)
---explanation---
- Imagine everything having two arms to a more and less complex thing -
which defines what they can see
- and so all that we know is an effective vector -
in floating scalar space---ends---
- the light wave (photon) (3D - space II) travels on an orthogonal carrier (3D - space I) and evolves into a particle in an orthogonal space (3D - space III) albeit in infinitely more dimensions,
- I think pretty much the same
which traces out the possible scenarios in which, and I want to stress this point, it is even thinkable that outcomes like "two mating strategies" are but one of the viable alternatives
- I think that it's always this way -
there's
evolution <- ->- ILLEGAL (sleepin' with a monkey)
getting to evolution -> (mitosis) (sleepin' within your tribe) evolution -> (meiosis) (sleepin' with someone who's about as different to you as it is possible to imagine - though where she is of course - of your species)
(otherwise i->- ILLEGAL (sleepin' with a monkey))
- which can be illustrated by the occurrence of other-numbered mechanisms in certain species:
sorry - don't understand
? 1 species with >2 mating strategies
but nevertheless, it is indeed "convergence" that is observed in a staggering multitude of cases.
built into the evolutionary process -
- when evolution delivers a new structure -
an end-point is defined -
- all the species need do - is get there
And this really makes a strong case for a
virtually abstract == ? absolute
necessity of event horizons that can shield the
diversions == ? choice until it is no longer a choice - because it's built in
[quote]- when evolution delivers a new structure -
an end-point is defined -
- all the species need do - is get there
who do so with a surprising efficiency that harkens back to a ptolemian similarity of micro- and macrocosmos,
convergence
efficiency
-> not surprising
- it's built in - it need be this way and so is to be expected
- nature is simply ensuring that we don't end up on a 'cul de sac'
or, rather, boldly illustrates the fractal nature of reality as "Das Ding An Sich",

definitely the structure of reality -
for 'fractal'
-> mathematical complexity requires more work on the structure itself


because the Cosmic Censor
is this the Galactic Centre (and hence a tie into gravity and the precession of planet Earth)?
seems to manifest itself not only in the rather extreme reaches that surround the gravitational singularity, but also in the seemingly everyday world of sexual reproduction.
Exactly - one rule which generalizes

==

similar class of processes that shape the organisation of the emergent structures

The naked singularity remains hidden.
Relates to all of the above eg
(3D - space I)
(orthogonal reality)

- and for instance -
[cell]
[DNA],[protein]
[B]
- the pattern generalises to different levels
all levels
is the point here

the (eg cellular) interface delineates one structure from another
->
built in - the definition of a structure -
though structure is really a verb and not a noun[B]
reproduction (eg DNA above) is necessary for the structure to optimise to further evolutionary growth
->
built in (as it need be)
evolution of all things'd be a little silly to switch patterns in the same space -
there wouldn't be a simple route for the second law of thermodynamics -
how'd we push oxygen and thydrokinkle into efficient structure (together)?

Now isn't that something ..
yes

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px inset ;" class="alt2"> Originally Posted by TierraBella
…the communication challenges between us (that's another thread tho)…
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
(grins) Well, not as far as we’re concerned, but we do tend to be a bit biased on that particular subject.

I think that the communication problems between man and woman are as follows where these two types may be of either sex.

--- cannot see problems/solutions from the same perspective

--- tendency towards emotional and not logical problem solving by one and logical and not emotional problem solving by the other

--- generally one is grounded by 'physical concerns' - and the other by 'virtual' concerns
physical - physical wealth
mental - principles

--- communication of logical ideas to an emotional type elicits emotional and not logical reactions
and the converse also

--- happiness for 'physicals' relates to wealth in bank
and
for 'mentals' -> to mind

--- connection to child biases individual towards 'physical' type -> concern for the physical needs of children
other parent connects to child by shaping the kids other needs -> a mental environment - the child's mind.

--- 'physical' types push 'mental' types to bring home more physical wealth
'mental' types push 'physical' types to think more

--- duality of man --- woman entails that both can occupy both roles -
- until both can adopt (at will) - either the emotional or logical perspective -
will there be a problem.

(stumbling around here - trying to hit something of interest)

my observation here'd be that no 'mental' type sees the need for 'physical' -
a 'physical' type finds it hard to engage in 'mental'
'physical' is the past
'mental' is the future

I don't know - just trying to see if these ideas get some place -
and they aren't going anywhere in particular.

Help ???

ooops!
just noticed that I've made the transition from

emotional/logical
->
physical/mental

which isn't quite what I had intended

emotional and logical play a role on mental
emotional plays a role on physical

on mental - emotional and logical are balanced

on physical - logical is playing catch up on emotional.

-*-

where did that post come from?

mostly the one problem which we have -
money

I don't like money
- ++ wants stuff

all of the stuff has a reasoned basis which relates to kids -
- it all costs -
it's all material - all physical - all proddable.

(my major problem at the moment -
and has been for the best part of a year or so now
- 3 kids does that to you)

the problem -
making ++ actually feel what she knows to be true -
- that money is bad.

she'll say it -
but cannot feel it.

Sometimes it feels as though men appear to feel mental pain more -
- maybe physical pain too -
with the need for woman to support birth of a kid (physical pain) -
- having effects on internal machinery for feeling mental pain.
Desensitization - through necessity ??

I appear to react more to pain -
- however - have also experienced the loss of pain - from 'hurting' to merely nervous impulse.

Sensitivity of biosensors (the touch ceptors and friends) 'd do that to us
- would result in increased sensitivity
- maybe a higher threshold to desensitization also.

Often wondered why men appear to be the predominant sex of instability of mind.

Guess that instability can go both ways (a strictly geometric allusion - at a bifurcation of - effectively an objective
left(right) and right(wrong)).

A meandering post -
didn't really arrive any place useful.

Maybe the need to look at the sex hormones -
oestrogen ???

gender differences in communication

maybe

although one of the couple might know something to be logically correct -
he or she cannot overrule his or her emotional reaction to do the opposite

and in the other member of the couple -
no matter how strong the emotional reaction to perform some task -
- no matter whether it's an earth shatteringly powerful desire -
if the mind says
'no'
- it's not right
(morality is in effect the product of a logical mind)


then the guy or girl cannot engage.

I think that emotional individual feels physical pain by not listening to his or her physical (physical stuff demanding) voice
---whereas---
his or her partner
- mental guy or girl
feels mental pain - when attempting to overrule a decision made by his or her logical mind.

Hmmm...

... this is bit of a problem -
- a recipe for urgent need in balance to permit couples to stay together.

Opposites attract -
- fine until the duality requires one opposite to foist its favourite stuff on his or her other -
where repulsion - sometimes violent
results.

basis for this idea are the seeming stereotypes -
- regardless of actual gender in
male - female
male - male
female - female

stable pair bonded relationships of long term, close nature.


It's kinda' saying that the mental duality of a couple is defined to be of a certain type which makes the stereotypical man and woman emerge out -
- in time
just like a chemical element can be said to have the same physico-chemical properties regardless of location.

Maybe the need to look at the sex hormones -
oestrogen ???

or testosterone

New Scientist
from yesterday

sums it up
newscientist.com/testosterone-makes-birds-bad-parents (http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/mg19826534.700-testosterone-makes-birds-bad-parents.html)
FEMALE starlings with a testosterone top-up are better defenders of the nest, but skimp on parental care.
High levels of testosterone may work to a female's advantage where competition for nesting sites is fierce, the authors suggest, but reduce reproductive success elsewhere.houses prices (everything too expensive)
->-
nest (home) falls apart (cannot be sustained)
->-
instinct to protect the nest and young activated
->-
aggression
(resulting not in the nest improving - instead in the family falling apart under the weight of instinctive behaviour)

now that is a toughie of a subject to broach -
it hits the unjust nature of money
as the stimulus for instinctive female behaviour

out of conscious control

tough -
wouldn't really know what to say -
- other than -

presumably -
a part of the primitive mating strategy

where the female motivation is


not to be confused with the new mathematics
i-table(s)

root (root -1 ) x root (root -1 ) = scatchascatcha meep meep fratcha


hmmm....


survival


of #1-3 inclusive

may be identified by butt stinky nappies filled to breaking point.

Incidentally -
why doesn't somebody invent a proper way of handling voluminous nitrogenated goo which toots outta' Waterloo station on the way to its first port of call

'choo choo'

where's Tracy '26 Routes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crewe_station)' ?
... ... flounder member of Melbourne's wreckin' Crewe

:-)

~ parp ~