I'm not really sure where to put this post.
I took the test in, Healing ADD and scored almost as high as possible in all types. The test was somewhat confusing as you count all answers that you score 3 or 4 as one point for those. You are also supposed to get someone who knows you really well to score you too. My bf scored me even higher, and hes not mad at me :)! Has anyone else scored high on all subtypes and if so, are being treated with what, and with what sucess? On my ADHD vs inatttentive if I go with his score I am ADHD, with my own just barely inattentive ADD and almost w/ the hyperactivity.

I'm Definitely Type 2,5, and 6, but have things from all of them in one form or another... but those three I have all of them.

I haven't read the book and I'm not familiar with the number subtypes, but on the tests on the website (I cant find the tests now...deleted??) I scored innatentive and...I think basal ganglia or something? Can't remember the last exactly but I think it was that one.

Do the numbers have headings and if so could you post them?

Thanks,
DFTO

DFTO,
Type 1) Classic ADD w/ hyper. and inplulsivity
Type 2) Inattentive ADD
Type 3) Overfocused
Type 4) Temporal Lobe (meaning: aggression, dark or violent thoughts "self or others", sensitivity to slights, mild paranoia, word-finding problems, auditory processing problems, reading difficulties, and emotional instability.
Type 5) Limbic ADD, is where ADD and depression cross (so typical depression stuff)
Type 6) Ring of Fire, now I like Dr. Amens book so far but I wish he would of named this something less hokey! Ring of Fire is: Angry or Aggressive, sensetive to noise, clothes, cyclic mood changes,rigid in thinking, insist on having their own way, periods of mean or nasty behavior, periods of excessive talking, unpredictable behavior, grandiose thinking, talks fast, sensation that thoughts go fast, appears anxiouse or fearful.

Note that Dr Amen is the only one in the world who works with these subtypes. He is not recognised by mainstream psychiatry. There are are doubts about his diagnostic method with SPECT:

In 2005, the APA Council on Children, Adolescents and Their Families (http://www.psych.org/psych_pract/clin_issues/populations/children/SPECT.pdf) concluded: Although knowledge is increasing regarding specific pathways and specific brain areas involved in mental disease states, at present the use of brain imaging to study psychiatric disorders is still considered a research tool. . . . . Particular caveats are indicated with regard to brain imaging involving radioactive nucleotides for children and adolescents because of children’s known greater sensitivity to radiation and risk of radiation induced-cancer. At the present time, the available evidence does not support the use brain imaging for clinical diagnosis or treatment of psychiatric disorders in children and adolescents.
The APA's Psychiatric Evaluation of Adults Guideline (2006) states: In patients with schizophrenia and mood and anxiety disorders, structural and functional neuroimaging studies have reported differences between patients and healthy control persons as well as differences in some patient subgroups and in responders and nonresponders to some treatments. Nevertheless, the clinical utility of neuroimaging techniques for planning of individualized treatment has not yet been shown. Further research is needed to demonstrate a clinical role for structural and functional neuroimaging in establishing psychiatric diagnoses, monitoring illness progression, and predicting prognoses.
article on quackwatch (http://www.quackwatch.com/search/webglimpse.cgi?ID=1&query=amen)

Also, confusingly, the test on his website lists a different set of types than the one above, i.e.:

BOOK
1) Classic ADD w/ hyper. and inplulsivity
2) Inattentive ADD
3) Overfocused
4) Temporal Lobe
5) Limbic ADD
6) Ring of Fire

TEST
1) Classic ADD w/ hyper. and inplulsivity
2) Inattentive ADD
3) Cingulate System Hyperactivity (Overfocused)
4) Limbic System Hyperactivity (Depressed)
5) Basal Ganglia Hyperactivity (Anxiety)
6) Temporal Lobe

--> :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: <--


I cant see what there is special about those types: they could just as well be translated as

1) Classic ADD w/ hyper. and impulsivity
2) Inattentive ADD
3) co-existing OCD
4) co-existing Depression
5) co-existing Anxiety
6) *whatever that is* .. ODD? CD?

So what's the point - apart from creating categories and making things more complex?

Furthermore, when I read his website I find all it very, very commercial. I know that that's the american way .. but still ..
plus .. I have that book as well .. I must say that it did not capture me at all. Especially not since I got my hands on 'Delivered from distraction' after that, and IMHO 'Healing ADD' cannot stand in its shadow, despite the pretty brain scan pictures that seem to make up half of the book.

Whatever I read in "healing ADD" only made me worry and fret .. and reading in "delivered from Distraction" made me smile and want to move ahead.

Good response Luthien, you save me from typing something very similar (but probably less coherent) :)

Oops, got my numbers wrong, went by memory. I fit all explanation of types...well all of them I guess...geesus.

Luthien, Thanks for the response, I have seen part of this in one of your reponses before than couldn't find it again. Quackwatch is a site I frequent, I do not agree some of the stuff on their site. They can sometimes go too far the other way. With what I read and what Quackwatch said, I dont agree with them on their opposing claim. I'm glad to find someone is opposing Dr. Amen but I believe they didn't prove their point. Thats just in reading what they said and his response. I usually have a problem when someone "lawyers up" right of way, but not in this case, they did misquote him. IMO The commercialism of his website and the ridicoulouse money hes charging ,when in his book he complains of how this could help so many people, yep, I have a problem with that. I know California is high overhead but please.........I do think that measuring the brain with Spect the way he does and seeing the difference when testing during concentration is way too cool. After looking at the scientific discussions on this board though I realize that there is so much thats way over my head.
I'm currently reading his book along with driven to distraction, just haven't go to far in that one yet.



Note that Dr Amen is the only one in the world who works with these subtypes. He is not recognised by mainstream psychiatry. There are are doubts about his diagnostic method with SPECT:

article on quackwatch (http://www.quackwatch.com/search/webglimpse.cgi?ID=1&query=amen)

Also, confusingly, the test on his website lists a different set of types than the one above, i.e.:

BOOK
1) Classic ADD w/ hyper. and inplulsivity
2) Inattentive ADD
3) Overfocused
4) Temporal Lobe
5) Limbic ADD
6) Ring of Fire

TEST
1) Classic ADD w/ hyper. and inplulsivity
2) Inattentive ADD
3) Cingulate System Hyperactivity (Overfocused)
4) Limbic System Hyperactivity (Depressed)
5) Basal Ganglia Hyperactivity (Anxiety)
6) Temporal Lobe

--> :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: <--


I'm with you on this! Dont get it either :confused:

I cant see what there is special about those types: they could just as well be translated as

1) Classic ADD w/ hyper. and impulsivity
2) Inattentive ADD
3) co-existing OCD
4) co-existing Depression
5) co-existing Anxiety
6) *whatever that is* .. ODD? CD?

So what's the point - apart from creating categories and making things more complex?

Furthermore, when I read his website I find all it very, very commercial. I know that that's the american way .. but still ..
plus .. I have that book as well .. I must say that it did not capture me at all. Especially not since I got my hands on 'Delivered from distraction' after that, and IMHO 'Healing ADD' cannot stand in its shadow, despite the pretty brain scan pictures that seem to make up half of the book.

Whatever I read in "healing ADD" only made me worry and fret .. and reading in "delivered from Distraction" made me smile and want to move ahead.

I'm just not sure.....brain scans are very compelling evidence to me. As is his opions on head injuries. This is gross, but when you look at calves brains in the store they have almost the consistancy of liver. He also made a point that they ask patients over and over if they have had head injuries and most people always say no at first. Then remember a few if not many.
As soon as I started "delivered from distraction", I too like it a lot, just haven't got that far yet. I would have to exaust all means and really do much more research before I would be on a plane to California shelling out that kind of $$$$$$$.

A big misconception about how Dr. Amen's clinics operate is everyone thinks you need a brain scan in order to get fully diagnosed and treated.

Dr. Amen has stated they really only recommend brain scans if absolutely necessary. For the most part, they rely on a intensive 15 page questionnaire, along with a Q&A session with the patient. The regular session without a scan is about $900, or at least that was the price when I had the scan done a couple years ago. It may have changed now.

I had the scan done because I wanted to get the "full treatment", so to speak. Reading Healing ADD changed my life because of one paragraph in the introduction saying that when ADDers try to concentrate, the part of the brains related to concentration, focus, and follow-through shut down. And the harder they try, the worse it gets.

After I figured that out, I was able to figure workarounds to help keep me focused under pressure. It wasn't a complete cure-all, but there was a marked improvement in a very short time -- my work/home areas became organized and stayed that way, I followed through way than before and actually was able to complete tasks.

I met with a doctor who gave me some dietary suggestions, as well as supplementation recommendations and a scrip for Adderall to try out.

Dr. Hallowell talks about Dr. Amen and his SPECT scans in Delivered from Distraction. If memory serves (I read the book a couple years ago), he wasn't quite sure about the SPECT scan itself, but agreed the brain needed to be looked at and didn't think Dr. Amen was a crackpot.

To Luthien: Your comment "Whatever I read in "healing ADD" only made me worry and fret .. and reading in "delivered from Distraction" made me smile and want to move ahead" has me curious.

What about Healing ADD was so worrisome and fretful?

Dr. Amen doesn't sound 'doomy and gloomy' in the book but emphasizes ADDers can lead productive lives. He gives examples of ADDers who -- through supplementation or pharmaceutical means, as well as counseling with therapists and coaching if needed -- are able to turn their lives around for the better. He also outlines ADD behavior, it's impact on the ADDer as well as the people around them, and coping suggestions for both parties.

I took that test too and I think it said my AD/HD was not AD/HD but something that had to do with what I eat. I am not too sure about the site and I have never heard of being diagnosed with add using imaging. It didn't ring true for me at all.

--> :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: <--


I cant see what there is special about those types: they could just as well be translated as

1) Classic ADD w/ hyper. and impulsivity
2) Inattentive ADD
3) co-existing OCD
4) co-existing Depression
5) co-existing Anxiety
6) *whatever that is* .. ODD? CD?

So what's the point - apart from creating categories and making things more complex?


Whatever I read in "healing ADD" only made me worry and fret .. and reading in "delivered from Distraction" made me smile and want to move ahead.
Thanks for what you wrote Luthien, I feel we're all unique with our own attributes. To catagorize people into separate subgroups doesn't even allow for this.

Crackerjack, Thanks for your reply, I hoped that someone who had been to one of the clinics would answer this. How are things going for you now? I forgot but it does say in he book that he also goes by a questionere. So far from what I have read he seem to be THE specialist of ADD. I had checked to see if I could get scanned here and if they will read it. They do that also.

To Luthien: Your comment "Whatever I read in "healing ADD" only made me worry and fret .. and reading in "delivered from Distraction" made me smile and want to move ahead" has me curious.

What about Healing ADD was so worrisome and fretful?
I did not say that - I said that I felt that way after reading it. It just did not 'catch on'. It might have been the overall tone of the book .. or my doubt about those six types .. or whatever. I read that article on quackwatch very recently so it was not that. And the difference was all the more visible when I read 'delivered from distraction' after that.

Also - just to make sure .. I don't think that Amen is a crackpot. I do think he is selling not sufficiently tested and proven methods without telling his (prospective) clients / patients.

texasmissb .. these checklists are all over the internet ..

if you google for "tendency to predict fear" (http://www.google.ca/search?q=%22tendency+to+predict+fear%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) (I read that in his test and did not understand what that meant) .. you get the links to them.

Luthian, I dont get that either??? In the book the question closest is - has periods of panic/or fear for no apparent reason. Which would be the same as generalized anxiety disorder. So far what I believe for myself (I'm sure this will change as I'm so new to this) I am sure I have ADD, I know I have these symptoms. So does my mother and maybe my sister ( I ruled her out because she finished college, but she has issues), and when I think about it I think my grandmother had it really bad. So I believe its hereditary and that since different parts of the brain are responsible for those thoughts etc, maybe there is not enough bloodflow because of a phylogenetic (I hope thats the right word, hell I hope its a word) issue. What impresses me about Dr.Amen is the scans and his attitude of why are we treating the brain w/o looking at it. Its still sinking in that I have a real disorder. I quess the pictures help drive that home.

Luthian, I dont get that either??? In the book the question closest is - has periods of panic/or fear for no apparent reason. Which would be the same as generalized anxiety disorder. So far what I believe for myself (I'm sure this will change as I'm so new to this) I am sure I have ADD, I know I have these symptoms. So does my mother and maybe my sister ( I ruled her out because she finished college, but she has issues), and when I think about it I think my grandmother had it really bad. So I believe its hereditary and that since different parts of the brain are responsible for those thoughts etc, maybe there is not enough bloodflow because of a phylogenetic (I hope thats the right word, hell I hope its a word) issue. What impresses me about Dr.Amen is the scans and his attitude of why are we treating the brain w/o looking at it. Its still sinking in that I have a real disorder. I quess the pictures help drive that home.

er .. relax .. one of the two tests on the Amen website has this question on it .. I dont know which one .. there are maybe 20 questions about anxiety.

this one, for instance (http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:isNDOED7rZwJ:www.pssuccess.ca/forms/Amen%2520Brain%2520Systems.pdf+%22tendency+to+pred ict+fear%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca&client=firefox-a)
Amen Brain System Checklist
Name: __________________________
Please rate yourself on each of the symptoms listed below using the following scale. If possible, to give us the most complete picture, have another person who knows you well (such as a spouse, lover or parent) rate you as well. List other ______
(...)
___ ___45. Tendency to predict fear
(...)
If Dr Amen's methodology is criticized, it does not follow that your condition is any less real of valid.

It's just his method .. I think he jumps to too easy conclusions too fast. It is just a bit 'glib' for my taste - and that's all that I can say about it. I'm not a doctor. I just happen to be skeptical. Maybe a bit too much - who shall say. It may very well be that there is a link between what those scans show and what the problem is - but for all we know the mechanism might be a lot more complex and subtle than he proposes. It's just not researched enough - yet. And that is why the APA is having second thoughts. The procedure is costly, and there is a radioactive tracer involved in making the scans.

I did not say that - I said that I felt that way after reading it. It just did not 'catch on'. It might have been the overall tone of the book .. or my doubt about those six types .. or whatever. I read that article on quackwatch very recently so it was not that. And the difference was all the more visible when I read 'delivered from distraction' after that.


Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.

I thought that the description of "overfocused" was pretty spot on for me. And adding the SSRI to the Adderall helped. Brain scans don't blow me away, either, but they do help to quiet some of those who'd tell me that I just lack discipline, which is nice.

I'm one, two and three which means I'm a three from what I understand and that seems to fit well for me. He calls that overfocused which is a pretty good name for it -- my psychologist calls it an ADDer who's a bit OCDish.

How are things going for you now?

Things are ok. I need to get back to the basics so some of the stuff I learned after reading his book. The biggest thing I regret doing was listening to everyone who told me what a silly idea it was to get tested to begin with.

I had a strong negative reaction to the Adderall, to the point where I'm really twitchy about going back to meds again. The supps they recommended were mixed. They suggested GABA to help with my sleep and anxiety. I went to sleep quickly, but was drowsy into the next day, even after several cups of large coffee so I stopped using it. One supp which has worked really well is Phosphatdylserine for my memory -- I actually have a short term memory now and don't have to write things down anywhere near as much. It's amazing.

What worked for me was realizing how pressure affected me. Once I started paying attention to what I did and the times I'd freeze up, I'd see if the pressure was due to an actual deadline or self-made. Usually it was self-made, in which case I'd take some mental steps to back away from whatever it was I was doing in which case the pressure would ease off and I'd get things done. Meditative breathing was a big help here.

Same thing with getting organized. I started paying attention to my thought process when I'd do stuff and I realized as soon as I thought about doing something, a followup thought would push it off to doing it later. It was so subtle I didn't notice it was occurring. So my workaround for that was to add a "I'll do it now." So basically my thought process runs along the lines of "I'll do this now...no, I'll do it later...no, I'll do it now." The result is I'm organized and I've kept my rooms clean up to about a year without any major cleaning to be done.

So far from what I have read he seem to be THE specialist of ADD.

Nope. There's other docs out there, such as Hallowell, who are considered great ADD specialists. But as you said, Dr. Amen is a proponent about "looking" at how the brain works before treating it.

I am sure I have ADD, I know I have these symptoms. So does my mother and maybe my sister ( I ruled her out because she finished college, but she has issues)

Just because your sister graduated from college doesn't mean she doesn't have ADD. There's plenty of people -- myself being one -- who did fine in school, but after getting into the "real world", hit the 'wall' and ran into trouble, so to speak.

I had checked to see if I could get scanned here and if they will read it. They do that also.

Forgot to reply to this one.

I wouldn't necessarily go for a scan itself unless you think it's necessary like if you think your brain's been "damaged" in some way -- such as a history of alcohol/drug abuse, suspected co-morbid behavior, a history of head injuries (or one really good smack on the head ;)).

I had the scan done because I wanted to be thorough and I've also gotten more than a fair share of bangs on my head.

For my first scan, they put me in a room with a computer in it and I had to try to hit a key whenever a certain letter/number appeared (it was actually harder than it sounds, I thought I had better impulse control than what I did. Heh.) Then the tech comes in and injects you with a small amount of radioactive dye, which is what the scans pick up. After that, you're put in the scanner and have to be as still as possible (kinda like other scans in the hospital. It's pretty tight in there, I remember the scan panel rotating and it was like a millimeter from my nose.

They have a separate day for the second scan, when your brain is at rest so there's no computer beforehand, they just inject you and you're lying in the scanner again.

After that, I met with a "historian" who asks you a bunch of questions, mostly clarifying the answers you circled in the 15 page questionnaire, or getting more details of certain life events. This one surprised me because the questions I was expecting were more along the lines of a therapist ("How did you feel when you were bullied?", etc).

They have the scans read and then someone puts together the scans with the questionnaire/interview results and they come up with the final diagnosis.

After that, you meet with one of their doctors who goes over the results and outlines possible treatment options (pharmaceutical, supplements, and diet/exercise). They can even write medication scrips themselves if need be, so you don't have to try to find a doc to fill the initial scrip. There's also a followup session which was included in the cost, and tweaks can be made to the medication/program if need be. Any other appointments after that have to be paid for, though.

Hope this demystifies the process for you. :)

Oh, and regarding the radioactive dye, just to address any concerns by anyone reading this: it's a small amount used, and in the end -- like I said -- the treatment doesn't solely rely on the scan -- it's optional.

Crackerjack, Thank you for shareing your experiance about this. I;m almost finished w/ the book, and was really wanting to "talk" to someone who had experianced this. I dont know why I ruled my sister out because of college. There are many people on this board who finished. She does have all the signs and because of a custody battle she went through had several psychological test in which she tested higher than average in several disorders but not high enough to be diagnosed with any, she was not tested for ADD. Out of all of us I have had many "bumps to the head", Being knocked out a couple times. I trained horses years ago, and never wore a helment. I haven;t seen any differance though and have the same issues since I can remember. I was bombarded several years ago with some traumatic experiances. These have given me many PTSD symptoms, generalised anxiety, and severe depression. The depression has lifted recently w/o any meds and I contribute it to finding this forum and hypnosis. What freaked me out though was testing so high on every question except a few.

The problem with his nomenclature is that he's the only one who uses it.

More importantly, his research has only been replicated by his own grad students.

I respect the fact that he's a prolific researcher, but he's looked upon as being on the fringe.

There's also controversy about using radioactive dye on human subjects,however, that's not limited to just his work though.

At any rate, it doesn't matter that it's urinated out in about 24 hrs.

It's the ethical dilemma of putting test subjects and / or patients (especially kids) at risk vs the APA Ethical Principles of : "Do No Harm."

Lastly, charging in the neighborhood of $10 K is a big draw back;especially when the state of the (current) reseach does not approve of using scans for diagnostic purposes ( i.e., the mainstream reseach doesn't support the use for diagnosing disorders).

I don't think anyone would discount the research potential though.

He'll either go down as a "Cutting edge " practitioner.....or...something along the lines of "wing nut ",etc.

Great question .Thanks for raising the point.

tc
mctavish23
(Robert)

Lastly, charging in the neighborhood of $10 K is a big draw back;

Clear up any confusion, the cost is actually around $3,250 for a complete evaluation (scans and interview appointments).

This page shows the actual pricing and how it's broken down: http://www.amenclinics.com/ac/patients.php