About 7 years ago I began taking Ritalin and Adderall (not at the same time, but on alternating months -- one month Ritalin, one month Adderall) for attention deficit disorder. For the first three months, I had great success with both medications; however, after 3 months I started having difficulty thinking at the higher dosages (15 mg Ritalin / dose). After that, the problem became progressively worse, and I had to take smaller and smaller dosages in order to "think well" while taking either of the medications. In the years since, I've tried taking small dosages of Ritalin, Adderall, Focalin, Strattera, Modafinal, and Caffeine, and all of them have caused the exact same problem.

I've also gone to see several different doctors, but none of them are sure why I'm having the problem.

Also, this past December it tried taking Vyvanse for 4 days and noticed in my liver panel that my ALT and Direct Bilirubin levels were slightly out of range.

12/9/2007:
30 mg Vyvanse
-----------------------------------------------
12/10/2007:
30 mg Vyvanse
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12/11/2007:
15 mg Vyvanse
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12/12/2007:
15 mg Vyvanse

BILIRUBIN, DIRECT: 0.4
Reference Range: < OR = 0.2 mg/dL

ALT: 66
Reference Range: 9-60 U/L
-----------------------------------------------
12/18/2007:
BILIRUBIN, DIRECT: N/A

ALT: 55
Reference Range: 9-60 U/L

Any thoughts, comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I have just started stimulants (a trial of Adderall IR and Dextroamphetamine IR) and have noticed that my thinking can be negatively impacted on Adderall. At work (waiter) Adderall interferes with short-term memory/multi-tasking (brain fog, forgetfulness). Dextro, on the other hand, is great. Dextro (w/ just its d-isomer) raises my mood and functioning, gently. Adderall (w/ its d-isomer and l-isomer) spikes my mood to an extreme degree but interferes with other functions.
I have only been on them for a month, but my initial impression closely monitoring myself is that Dextroamphetamine is an all-around enhancer (gently raises mood, energy and focus) and that Adderall is almost an intoxicant for me (spikes mood, positively effects energy and focus, but impairs other types of thinking). Like alcohol boosts some things (mood, energy, disinhibition) but impairs other functions (short-term memory, motor-coordination), Adderall seems to so overwhelm my brain with its mood elevating effect that it results in its own enhancement-impairment profile.
Right now I'm thinking of utilizing Dextro on a regular basis and using Adderall as an occasional, as-needed, mood elevator/anti-depressant (which it is really great for) the day after a really stressful day or event when my mood has temporarily plummeted and crushed my motivation.
Anyway, I can relate to your experience with difficulty thinking. You might want to ask your doc for a trial of Dextro. On it I feel like myself, with extended capabilities when I want or need them (mood, energy, confidence, clear and strong thinking, short-term memory, creativity, focus and concentration, calmness). On Adderall, with it's mood elevating spike, I don't feel like myself - I feel like I'm on something (wierd, wired, even a little high and intoxicated).

You may want to experiment with adding a cholinergic, like alpha-GPC, CDP-choline, or galantamine. Some people have spoken of a downstream anticholinergic effect from the adrenergic affinity of these medicines.

You may want to experiment with adding a cholinergic, like alpha-GPC, CDP-choline, or galantamine. Some people have spoken of a downstream anticholinergic effect from the adrenergic affinity of these medicines.

Interesting. Do you have links to any research on neurotransmitters effected downstream by stimulants?
I only find problems with Adderall (which spikes adrenaline) and thinking, but not with Dextroamphetamines and thinking.

You may want to experiment with adding a cholinergic, like alpha-GPC, CDP-choline, or galantamine. Some people have spoken of a downstream anticholinergic effect from the adrenergic affinity of these medicines.

It is against the rules of this forum to offer medical advice.

Feel free to state what has worked for you, and feel free to encourage another member to think about speaking to their Dr about it, but do not offer medical advice to other members in this forum.

Only a Dr is qualified to offer medical advice about what person "may or may not want to experiment with" due to the fact that a Dr has access to a persons medical history, among other things.

Taking Centrophenoxine (a potent choline source) has helped me. Also, liquid Magnesium, about 250mg daily.

I get the same effect from Dexedrine after a couple days on it, it's good after I take a break but goes down quickly.

I don't think the centro and Magnesium are the solution, though. Atleast, I haven't found anything consistent, dosage-wise, and this Wellbutrin is making me real muddle-headed as well (the centro helps with this one too).

Taking Centrophenoxine (a potent choline source) has helped me. Also, liquid Magnesium, about 250mg daily.

I get the same effect from Dexedrine after a couple days on it, it's good after I take a break but goes down quickly.

I don't think the centro and Magnesium are the solution, though. Atleast, I haven't found anything consistent, dosage-wise, and this Wellbutrin is making me real muddle-headed as well (the centro helps with this one too).


Regarding Wellbutrin, I did read over at the Immortality Institute Nootropic Forum about Wellbutrin inhibitting acetylcholine downstream and giving users thinking/muddle-headed issues.

I don't think taking Wellbutrin with amphetamines makes any sense. Wellbutrin is a dopamine antagonist, while amphetamines are a dopamine agonist, the Wellbutrin really just stops the amphetamines from their releasing effects, and only allows them their reuptake inhibition effects... if you want to mix Wellbutrin with an ADHD med, it only makes sense with the methylphenidate preparations.

I don't think taking Wellbutrin with amphetamines makes any sense. Wellbutrin is a dopamine antagonist, while amphetamines are a dopamine agonist, the Wellbutrin really just stops the amphetamines from their releasing effects, and only allows them their reuptake inhibition effects... if you want to mix Wellbutrin with an ADHD med, it only makes sense with the methylphenidate preparations.

Interesting. I read that Wellbutrin is a dopamine and norepinephrine inhibitor (at Wiki). But it is a dopamine antagonist (prevents its release from cells)?

Unless I had a life-threatening condition or was a danger to myself or others, I would not continue to take a medication that interfered with my ability to think clearly.

"not thinking clearly" is more or less indistinguishable from my inattentive fog, so this is not as dramatic and dangerous as it may sound on paper.

I am not a pharmacologist, but it is my understanding that: Since Wellbutrin is a dopamine antagonist as well as an inhibitor, the net result is that it is more of a regulator of dopamine. Furthermore, it blocks Nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (nAChRs) and that is what prevents the dopamine release from smoking. Finally, norepinephrine also plays an important role in the disorder.

Wow! Thank you very much for all of the responses. Would all of you mind if I took a couple of days to do my homework (so I can understand what was just said) before I respond?

Yo mike,

I think that alot of times when treated well you can hit a plateua, if you don't recognize if soon enough eventually you could get depressed... All the stress just mounts up, try adding wellbutrin , it'll help you out

try adding wellbutrin , it'll help you out

Do not offer medical advice in the medications forum!


For starters, what if this person happens to be allergic to Wellbutrin? What if this member has a pre-existing condition that would exclude Welbutrin from being prescribed? Etc., etc., etc.

Only a Dr is qualified to offer medical advice.

Sorry Lars, I didn't mean to give advice, I guess I had depression and wanted to add that wellbutrin helped bring me out of it. Sorry about that , I'm just trying to be helpful-

First, let me apologize for being away for so long. I've been trying to stay away from my computer as much as possible -- it's a really big distraction for me.

Also, there are a few other things I should probably mention:

One: When I was taking the Adderall, about 7 years ago, I found that when I upped the dosage from 20 mg/day to 25 mg/day (10 mg in the morning, 5 mg 4 - 5 hours later, 5 mg 2 - 3 hours later, etc.) I became very warm and started sweating profusely. This went on for about 1 - 2 weeks before I lowered the dosage back to 20 mg/day. If I remember correctly, a few weeks later was when I first began to have a difficult time thinking while I was on the ADD medication. Do you think that this could have started my problem? -- a possible slight overdose?

Two: For about the last two to three years I've been having a slight (not nearly as bad as when I'm taking the ADD medication) difficulty thinking and remembering things, and also a slight loss of coordination. (Over the last 7 years, since I first began having the trouble with the ADD meds I've only taken a small dose about once per year just to see if anything has changed)

Three: Over the last two to three years I've almost completely lost my appetite (which has been great for loosing weight :) ).

Rags847,
If you don't mind, could you tell me, the difficulty thinking you experience on Adderall, is it pretty bad? At 15 mg of Vyvanse I found myself having a really hard time filling out the medical history form they give at the doctor's office (not just because of my bad memory :) ), would you say the difficulty thinking you experience on Adderall is to that level?

trying,
Would you happen to know where I could read more about alpha-GPC, and CDP-choline. I did a google search and I found mostly advertisements for them. However, I did find an article on galantamine on Wikipedia.