How destructive is adderall to brain tissue?
I don't want to hear "oh, its legal and given to kids so it must be fine," I want to actually see evidence, if there even is any.
Many stories I have read of people coming off of 100mg of adderall a day sound exactly like meth withdrawal and, of course, it is amphetamine. I would imagine damage is not as severe as meth use but the damage potential still needs to be made clear.
I would guess drug companies would try and do everything in their power to block these kinds of studies from seeing the light of day. Anyone have any info on any such studies? Surely adderall has been out long enough to have long term users to analyze.

Methamphetamine may have some special properties that make it dose per dose more toxic than other common stimulants but those other stimulants likely do have a measurable risk of neurotoxicity also. The quanties of methamphetamine used in neurotoxicity studies are insanely high though.

d-meth at 20 mg /kg is used in many neurotoxicity studies. d-methamphetamine is at least 3 times as potent as adderal. That would equate to 60 mg /kg of adderall(in a single dose at a time and for a number of days in some studies). A 75 kg person would have to take 1500 mg of 100% pure
d-methamphetamine at one time or 4500 mg of adderral. Assuming it has the same molar toxicity (which I don't ) 135.21 /149.23 * 1500 = 1359 mg adderal. Oh excessive dopamine itself is likely a major factor in neurotoxicity of methamphetamine thats why its likely toxic relative to its potency and half-life (both greater than adderall). Thats why the 4500 mg adderall estimate is likely a low estimate when compared to 1500 mg d-meth.

Anyway 120 mg adderall daily is a reasonable amount for a 75 kg person to take over a day. 120 /4500 * 100 = 2.7% or less of the d-meth toxic dose.

So thats like comparing a person who drinks 1 12 oz can of beer over the entire day and one who drinks 37 cans instantly.

Also many common substance can block the neurotoxicity effect of methamphetamine and presumably could do the same for other stimulants.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48296

Amphetamine and Methylphenidate (ritalin) have been used in medicinal practice for decades. They are very safe when properly used.

The stuff you hear about happening to meth addicts are due to multiple issues. Primarily an average dose of street meth is I'm guessing super-high (100mg+ in dosage). Also like almost any other street drug, meth is also mixed with a bunch of other contaminants used in the cooking process. Quite common to have ingredients such as lithium (from batteries), phosphorus, ammonia and maybe a few others. I'm no meth expert by any means but reading up on the stuff and most other street drugs the process of creating isn't for chemical purity or quality.

J

d00000000000d !!!

(how do I thank theta for an illuminating post? I r a newbie!)

Click on the "thanks" button, bottom right hand corner of each post.

Surely adderall has been out long enough to have long term users to analyze.



The fact that many who have been on adderall for lengths of time measured in decades are still among the living. We who have been on adderall a decade or longer have enough cognition to not only respond to post we actually have enough operating brain material to convey complex thoughts, ideas, and to defend the truth against ignorance. . . as far as the amount of brain erosion I am suffering - read a sample of my thoughts (http://www.addforums.com/forums/blog.php?b=290) and analyze it for your self.

I've read that meth causes dopamine receptors to downregulate in the long run. Will this happen with Adderall?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine#Tolerance

If so, is it reversible? Just worried...

I've read that meth causes dopamine receptors to downregulate in the long run. Will this happen with Adderall?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine#Tolerance

If so, is it reversible? Just worried...

Yes and its consider a normal part of the treatment response. A long run is
1-2 months. Its reversible taking around the same amount of time off the meds.
The potential for a problem is if your body is very efficient at down-regulating
it might in short order make any reasonable dose of a stimulant ineffective.
Thats can be a problem because many doctors have limits on the max dose
they will prescribe.

1: Neuropediatrics. 2003 Apr;34(2):77-80.
Links
Methylphenidate down-regulates the dopamine receptor and transporter system in children with attention deficit hyperkinetic disorder (ADHD).
Vles JS, Feron FJ, Hendriksen JG, Jolles J, van Kroonenburgh MJ, Weber WE.

Department of Child Neurology, University Hospital Maastricht, Maastricht, The Netherlands. jvle@sneu.azm.nl

Adults suffering from Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) are known to have disturbed central dopaminergic transmission. With Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography (SPECT) we studied brain dopamine transporter and receptor activity in six boys with ADHD. Three months after initiation of treatment with methylphenidate we found a down-regulation of the post-synaptic dopamine receptor with a maximum of 20 % and a down-regulation of the dopamine transporter with a maximum of 74.7 % in the striatal system. This corresponded to a positive clinical response evaluated by neuropsychological questionnaires and tests. We suggest that dopamine transporter imaging by SPECT might be used to monitor psychostimulant treatment in children suffering from ADHD.

PMID: 12776228 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Theta, thanks for post but you lost me a bit in your math. :)

So adderall is 1/3rd the potency of d-meth?
Then you said (im guessing) that adderall is 2.7% as toxic as an equivalent d-meth dose? Could you clarify what you were saying there for me? Thanks.

The fact that many who have been on adderall for lengths of time measured in decades are still among the living. We who have been on adderall a decade or longer have enough cognition to not only respond to post we actually have enough operating brain material to convey complex thoughts, ideas, and to defend the truth against ignorance. . . as far as the amount of brain erosion I am suffering - read a sample of my thoughts (http://www.addforums.com/forums/blog.php?b=290) and analyze it for your self.

Your defensiveness is misplaced. Are you implying its ignorant of me to wonder if there have been studies done on possible brain damage related to adderall use because that in itself is clearly ignorant.

I dont know what you were trying to convey with the sentence: "The fact that many who have been on adderall for lengths of time measured in decades are still among the living.", but I will assume you meant to say that because those who have been on adderall for time that can be measured in decades are still among the living means that its un-harmful to the brain. If that is what you were trying to say, that is an ignorant basis for that conclusion.

Whatever the reason for your defensiveness, chill out and get off your high horse because your talking to someone who has been on adderall for a decade who, as was stated very simply in the original post, was just curious if anyone had any info or seen studies done on this topic.

I'd be happy to read other posts you've made, just please don't contribute completely unwarranted and unproductive defensiveness in threads i've started, its a waste of both of our time.

Then you said (im guessing) that adderall is 2.7% as toxic as an equivalent d-meth dose?

Thats right. Typical ADHD treatment levels of adderall vs known neurotoxic levels of d-meth.

How destructive is adderall to brain tissue?

your talking to someone who has been on adderall for a decade

What symptoms are you having?

Great answer Theta. Way to get down!

Your defensiveness is misplaced. Are you implying its ignorant of me to wonder if there have been studies done on possible brain damage related to adderall use because that in itself is clearly ignorant.
...
"The fact that many who have been on adderall for lengths of time measured in decades are still among the living."

I'm pretty sure meadd wasn't being defensive. I don't think she was aiming any antagonism at you. It's hard for the people who've seen a lot of ignorance in the area of medication over many years to not speak out avidly. There's many people on ADDF who are very passionate about ignorance, (caused mainly by the media), so you'll have to excuse those people who do appear to bite heads off.

Clinical Trial: "Genetic Measurements in Blood Cells of Children Taking Adderall or Methylphenidate"

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/record/NCT00341029

It doesn't specify they are looking for eroding brain tissue, but they are looking at chromosomal changes in this study, which who knows what they may or may not conclude at the end, so not sure this is the general direction of what you are looking for or not............

adderrall is a match, and meth is a volcano.
....both will light a cigerrette, but one burns your face off.

I m a meth addict 3 years clean.
...I was an active addict 22 years.

meth withdrawls:

........I was terrified to sleep, I had paralysis dreams, that terrified me.
was hallucinating wildly, after 8 hours sleep............ for months.

my chest rattling, with wet, thick, toxic speed mucus.
...my mom, watching me, sometimes trying to wake me, when she saw me
twitching from the paralysis dreams.

she thought I was dying.
........at that point, I was very sick for 3 weeks.
I saw auras for 2 months...
..spinning wheels of transparent color.
the breaker box issue......where I'd 'shut down" and then right before Id faint
come back on....like someone flipped my main breaker switch off and on
also, went on for 3 weeks.....
........my urine was dark brown...I was dehydrated...translucent, dry skin.
my face was sunken in..
I had HORRIBLE STOMACH ACHES...
......................EVERY TIME I ate, I was sick.
I was so malnourished, dehydrating and starving....so sick, angry, humilated, agoraphobic....
....with a bad hair cut.
(I useta cut my hair on meth a dead giveaway to my whole family)

I did'nt wanna see my family....my mom's sis, and my cousin's live here too.

...I wouldn't leave the house.

I cried, and cried, and slept, and ate, and hurt, and cried some more...

my aunt is an RN.
.....my mom asked her to look at me..
she told me she was afraid I really did some damage this time...
........that, she was afraid I was not gonna just "bounce back" like the other times.

my mother with large searching eyes.
..................waited outside my "shell" that contained my
very muffled true self ..mentally pacing..
...hoping and praying, one day I would fill it once more with "HER SUZIE"
instead... suicidal , depressive words, and hatred and contempt...that I did'nt die.

spilled from my mouth
............like some devil.
I was angry for a year and a half.
......I wanted to die in the streets of vegas...wrapped in shadows, and darkness.




adderrall withdrawl:
...........for a week to 2 weeks...

tired, foggy, lethargic, depressed...(nothing compared to meth)




........big difference.

I did'nt know i was ADHD.
........adderrall has IMPROVED the quality of my life.
my family is happy with my behaivior.

......meth is a whole different drug,

What erodes brain tissue, rots teeth, and causes many a heavy user of drugs such as methamphetamine to fall apart is this- not sleeping for days to weeks on end; smoking, shooting IV, or snorting huge amounts of the drug (grams not milligrams DAILY); not brushing one's teeth for days or weeks or ever; and not eating- for often many days.

Take the meth of out the equation and IMO if one stayed awake for multiple days, did not eat or brush their teeth and basically let themselves go, other than the fact it would be harder to stay awake this long, the end result would be similar-- a messed up person.

To compare low dose medical use under supervision of a doctor versus illicit insanity of the addict is asinine.

Time to go back to work since I am on-call all night.....

I think KurtG85 made this thread in response to the thread on withdrawal from
Adderall. In which people list some extreme withdrawal problems. So the concern was how much of the withdrawal problems were do to neurotoxicity.

Down regulation alone can explain a lot of the withdrawal. Your body has adjusted to higher dopamine levels by becoming less sensitive to it. So when
you stop the dopamine boosting your body is in a low dopamine low dopamine sensitivity situation. So it adjust again by becoming more sensitive to dopamine
(a few month process off your meds).

Neurotoxicity could "permanently" down-regulate in a sense by destroying a lot of receptors. In both cases(normal ADHD med use and extreme d-meth abuse) you can expect similar withdrawal effects. Though withdrawal from d-meth would likely be more difficult as the person likely used such large quantities of d-meth that they down-regulated their receptors much more. And perhaps some percent of over all up-regulation (while off meth) will never happen due to a percent of the receptors being destroyed.

Extremely slow reduction in doses will remove most the withdrawal misery.

Yes, Theta, that post partly pushed me to put this question on here. Also, in my text book for a psych class I am taking it mentions benzedrine and dexedrine as being prescription amphetamines and then goes right into methamphetamine and the damage it can do to the brain without making a big differentiation between the possible harmful effects (if any) of prescription amphetamines specifically. Seeing that gap in info led me to put this question up. Plus, I have just always been curious about this but being a long term adderall user myself wasn't sure I wanted to know.
Obviously there are a few posters in this thread who seem to be afraid in the same way as evidenced by their immediate condemnation of any harmful effects from adderall when they obviously have no scientific evidence to go on.
The post you mentioned, Theta, of all the nightmarish withdrawal effects that person was experiencing (which in all honesty I found very hard to believe at first wasn't just a return to old symptoms but now can understand based on the info you outlined) sounds like symptoms related to this same down regulation withdrawal symptoms which occurs in meth addicts but to a much smaller degree. I can see a little better now the potential pharmacological basis for such symptoms.
Do down regulation withdrawal symptoms correspond to actual tissue loss or are they unrelated? Maybe just miniscule amounts compared to that seen in meth users?
The text I'm reading from also mentions the potential for psychological dependence for the rush and boost of confidence amphetamines can give people. Regardless of any (or lack there of) tissue damage whatsoever to the limbic system or hippocampus people need to be educated that this is a very real potentiality of prescription amphetamines. I don't say this to fear monger, I say this because it is something I have experienced first hand and it is just something people should, for ethical reasons, be made aware of. I myself denied I was experiencing a psychological dependence for a long time, the very confidence boost I got from adderall itself made it easier to deny it along with other emotional issues I still had but thought I could cover up with adderall. I learned the hard way that adderall was not getting to the root of those issues.
It is dissapointing to see people close their minds to any new info and condemn those who search for it all because they are afraid to hear something they might not want to.
Thank you for not taking that route and providing the informative posts Theta.

dude, you start rotting when you stop growing, around 18.

........you can get alzhiemers, or dementia, be born retarded....or born dead.

it's an an amazing coincedence that your dads sperm fought vaginal acid, upstream thru
smegma to penetrate the wall of an egg that is there 36 hours...

personally, I got nothing to lose....my brain is fuct.
......I just hope my brain and body to rot together.

and I don't walk around saying I'm napolian for 10 years.

.............we're all gonna die, I don't care how healthy you are, or what drugs you take or don't
take...
....it's coming.


if adderrall is eroding my brain...
........it's better than me blowing em all over the wall from depression of unaccomplishment

in my text book for a psych class I am taking it mentions benzedrine and dexedrine as being prescription amphetamines and then goes right into methamphetamine and the damage it can do to the brain without making a big differentiation between the possible harmful effects (if any) of prescription amphetamines specifically.

you belive a text book over someones REAL LIFE experiances.
............don't read the nat'l enquirer!


Seeing that gap in info led me to put this question up.

could it be possible, there is a gap, because METH is WORSE?
.......could it also be possible ANYTHING YOU DO TOO MUCH OF, EVEN EATING FRIED CHICKEN WILL KILL YOU??


Plus, I have just always been curious about this but being a long term adderall user myself wasn't sure I wanted to know.

YOU'RE A LONG TIME ADDERRALL USER.
..I'm a long time METH user.
I bet my brain is alot more fuct up than yours!




Obviously there are a few posters in this thread who seem to be afraid in the same way as evidenced by their immediate condemnation of any harmful effects from adderall when they obviously have no scientific evidence to go on.


neither do you.
.......and no one condemed harmful effects....its all over the bottle.
ask judy garland, bob fosse...anyone who died speed related deaths.

The post you mentioned, Theta, of all the nightmarish withdrawal effects that person was experiencing (which in all honesty I found very hard to believe at first *yawns* wasn't just a return to old symptoms but now can understand based on the info you outlined) sounds like symptoms related to this same down regulation withdrawal symptoms which occurs in meth addicts but to a much smaller degree.


exactly!


I can see a little better now the potential pharmacological basis for such symptoms.
Do down regulation withdrawal symptoms correspond to actual tissue loss or are they unrelated?


Maybe just miniscule amounts compared to that seen in meth users?


BINGO!


The text I'm reading from also mentions the potential for psychological dependence for the rush and boost of confidence amphetamines can give people. Regardless of any (or lack there of) tissue damage whatsoever to the limbic system or hippocampus people need to be educated that this is a very real potentiality of prescription amphetamines.


you don't know that unless you read it in your text??? LOL!


I don't say this to fear monger, I say this because it is something I have experienced first hand and it is just something people should, for ethical reasons, be made aware of.

they are aware of it.


I myself denied I was experiencing a psychological dependence for a long time, the very confidence boost I got from adderall itself made it easier to deny it along with other emotional issues I still had but thought I could cover up with adderall. I learned the hard way that adderall was not getting to the root of those issues.

bravo



It is dissapointing to see people close their minds to any new info and condemn those who search for it all because they are afraid to hear something they might not want to.


it's new to you.
....the rest of the world knows...read your pharmacy's warning sheet attached to the script.

......you are a really a pompus, rude, and closed minded, for someone doing research.

Apples & oranges

Do down regulation withdrawal symptoms correspond to actual tissue loss or are they unrelated? Maybe just miniscule amounts compared to that seen in meth users?


Down regulation is like a cold room full of people where a large percent put on jackets. Those who put on the jackets are now less sensitive to the cold but they are still in the room(down-regulated). If it warms up in the room they will be miserable till they get their jackets off(withdrawal /time to up-regulated). People dying of hypothermia is the equivalence of neurotoxicity/tissue loss.

Neurotoxicity likely is not a perfect linear dose response. So normal ADHD stimulant use could still be a lot less toxic even when you factor its dose.
For example in some studies a very slight increase in body temperature or ambient temperature made a high dose of d-meth a lot more neurotoxic.
That might suggest that the high range (where hyperthermia is more likely)
is disproportionately more toxic than even moderate abuse levels.

Oh an people loose perspective over time of drug use/abuse to. My mom ounce said to me "at least your brother can blame his problems on drugs".
Meaning it as an insult to me as I rarely used drugs. Which means don't underestimate how bad your life can be even without drug abuse. So dont assume your past use/abuse explains all your current problems.


Maybe I should list some of the substance and the approximate human dose that have proved neuroprotective (alone)in mega dose d-meth studies:

N-acetyl-cysteine (I take 1200 mg)
R-alpha-lipoic acid (I take 200 -400 mg)
Selenium (I take 200 mcg l-selenomethinine your multi-vitamin likely has
200 mcg of selenium (inorganic) already :) )
L-carnosine (I don't take it)
Acetyl-l-carnitine (I take a few grams at a time)
L-carnitine (don't take similar to the above)
Meletonin (I don't take dose higher than normal use)
Deprenyl(prescription drug I do not take it (10 mg or less)
Alpha-tocopherol /vitamin E
CoQ10
resveratrol
creatine
Omega-3 maybe (may explain why at a later date)
L-type calcium channel blockers (prescription drug may block the anxiety from stimulants to)
BHA/BHT

Well im sorry your so angry suzzanneX. I'm not sure where your frustration is coming from? Your earlier post I found very helpful, put some perspective on things and was reassuring.
Sorry, but I dont understand what is so pompous and rude about making a valid question and defending myself when I feel a couple posters were implying that I am either ignorant or assinine and I defend myself? Did you think I was talking about you or something? I wasn't. If I'm wrong about what I thought they were implying than I'm sorry to them, I misinterpreted their meaning or intent. Someone who insults me while alluding what my question is synonymous to someone who 'denies any possible harmful effects of adderall' because they obviously won't even address the question.
I'll ignore your other rude comments because I assume you were just disgruntled by misinterpreting who I was calling defensive or denying of any potential negative effects. If that isn't the case and you would be that disrespectful to someone on this board for no reason... I just hope you never try to debate a topic with someone in real life like that because you'd get smacked pretty quick.
Sorry again if you thought I was refering to you with MY defensive comments, I wasn't and your original post was very helpful.

Thanks, Theta.

I thought I remember reading a long time ago about some study that suggested that ADD stimulant use was related to reduce levels of testosterone or some other hormone, do you know anything about that?

Thanks, Theta.

I thought I remember reading a long time ago about some study that suggested that ADD stimulant use was related to reduce levels of testosterone or some other hormone, do you know anything about that?

Not sure. A quick look up I see prenatal /intrauterine exposure to male hormones may be related to ADHD.

1: Dev Med Child Neurol. 2008 Jan;50(1):15-8.
Links
Further evidence that some male-based neurodevelopmental disorders are associated with high intrauterine testosterone concentrations.
James WH.

The Galton Laboratory, University College London, Wolfson House, London, UK. whjames@waitrose.com

It has been suggested that reading disability (RD), autism spectrum disorder (ASD), and attention-deficit-hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) share a measure of genetic overlap. They also share some epidemiological features, and have all been suspected of multifactorial (genetic and environmental) threshold origins. It has also been hypothesized that ASD, pervasive developmental disorder - not otherwise specified, and ADHD are partially caused by high maternal intrauterine testosterone levels. Here I offer a new method of testing this latter hypothesis on some of these disorders (RD, ADHD, and ASD). All these disorders occur more commonly in males. If the intrauterine testosterone hypothesis was correct, then probands should have a statistically significant excess of brothers among their siblings. Data are adduced here to test this. When treated as individual disorders, the data are significant only in the case of RD. However, the data are highly significant when pooled as RD + ADHD or RD + ADHD + ASD. Taken alone, the data on ASD are not significant. These results suggest that: (1) taxonomically, RD and ADHD are moresimilar to one another than either is to ASD; and (2) probands in the pooled samples have a very highly significant excess of brothers. This result stands in need of explanation. Provisionally, the data may be interpreted as suggesting that RD may be caused by high intrauterine testosterone levels, and confirming the hypothesis that ADHD is partially caused by high intrauterine testosterone.

PMID: 18173623 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1: Behav Neurosci. 2008 Apr;122(2):273-81.
Links
Masculinized finger-length ratios of boys, but not girls, are associated with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder.
Martel MM, Gobrogge KL, Breedlove SM, Nigg JT.

Department of Psychology, Michigan State University, East Lansing 48823-1116, USA. martelmi@msu.edu

Gonadal hormones may exert permanent organizational effects on sexually dimorphic finger-length ratios and sexually dimorphic behavior expressed in childhood attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). This study extended recent work examining associations between finger-length ratios (specifically, 2D:4D) and ADHD in a well-characterized, clinically diagnosed, community-recruited sample of boys and girls. A multistage, diagnostic procedure was utilized to identify 113 children with ADHD and 137 non-ADHD comparison children. Right-hand digit ratios showed significant mean differences by gender, as well as associations with ADHD diagnosis. Boys with ADHD had more masculinized digit ratios than control-group boys. More masculine right 2D:4D and 3D:4D ratios were correlated with parent- and teacher-rated inattentive and hyperactive-impulsive symptoms in boys but not in girls. Masculinized finger-length ratios were associated with hyperactive-impulsive and oppositional- defiant symptoms, but associations were largest with symptoms of inattention. It is concluded that prenatal, organizational effects of gonadal hormones may play a role in the development of ADHD and contribute to explaining sex differences in the prevalence rates of this childhood disorder.

PMID: 18410167 [PubMed - in process]

Maybe it was growth hormone? Stimulant can lower it a small amount.

1: Pediatrics. 1998 Aug;102(2 Pt 3):497-500.
Links
Response to growth hormone in attention deficit hyperactivity disorder: effects of methylphenidate and pemoline therapy.
Rao JK, Julius JR, Breen TJ, Blethen SL.

Department of Pediatrics, Louisiana State University School of Medicine, New Orleans, Louisiana 70112, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To determine whether treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) with methylphenidate hydrochloride or pemoline diminishes the response to growth hormone (GH) therapy in patients with idiopathic GH deficiency (IGHD) or idiopathic short stature (ISS). METHODS: The National Cooperative Growth Study database was used to identify patients between 3 and 20 years of age with IGHD or ISS and those within these groups who were treated with methylphenidate or pemoline for ADHD. Their growth in response to GH treatment (change in height standard deviation score [SDS]) was compared with that of patients with IGHD or ISS who were not treated for ADHD, by using a stepwise multiple regression analysis. RESULTS: In the IGHD cohort, there were 184 patients who were being treated for ADHD and 2313 who were not. In the ISS cohort there were 117 patients who were being treated for ADHD and 1283 who were not. There was a higher percentage of males being treated for ADHD in both cohorts. In the IGHD cohort, the change in height SDS was positively associated with the number of years of GH treatment, parents' heights, body mass index, and GH injection schedule, and was negatively associated with height SDS at the initiation of GH therapy, age, and maximum stimulated GH level. The use of methylphenidate or pemoline had a negative effect on the change in height SDS, but the magnitude of the effect was small. Similar effects were noted in the ISS cohort, but body mass index and the use of methylphenidate or pemoline had no effect on the change in height SDS. CONCLUSIONS: Concurrent ADHD therapy is associated with a slight decrease in the change in height SDS during GH treatment in patients with IGHD but not in those with ISS. Even in IGHD, the magnitude of the effect is small and should not deter the use of such concurrent therapy.

PMID: 9685452 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Maybe it was DHEA.

1: Child Psychiatry Hum Dev. 2008 Jun;39(2):201-9. Epub 2007 Aug 31.
Links
Effects of Methylphenidate and Bupropion on DHEA-S and Cortisol Plasma Levels in Attention-deficit Hyperactivity Disorder.
Lee MS, Yang JW, Ko YH, Han C, Kim SH, Lee MS, Joe SH, Jung IK.

Korea University Medical Center, Seoul, Korea.

We evaluated plasma levels of DHEA-S and cortisol before and after treating ADHD patients with one of two medications: methylphenidate (n = 12) or bupropion (n = 10). Boys with ADHD (combined type) were evaluated with the Korean ADHD rating scale (K-ARS) and the computerized ADHD diagnostic system (ADS). All assessments were measured at baseline and repeated after 12 weeks. There were significant clinical improvements in both treatment groups as measured by K-ARS and ADS. DHEA-S levels increased from baseline to endpoint, but cortisol levels did not change significantly. This study suggests that both methylphenidate and bupropion increase plasma levels of DHEA-S in boys with ADHD.

PMID: 17763937 [PubMed - in process]

you addressesed one person and got 10 people that replied...
......no matter what they said, it was a reply, and I felt you ignored me and others.
and all we know is all we are....we did our best.
.....thank you for the acknowlegment. Yes, I did think you were talking about me
I apologize.
as for getting "smacked" ...I'm 43 years old and it's never happened.
.......intresting passive aggression going on in your posts.

Nope, not passive aggression, just the type of aggression I, and most anyone else I know would display were I talked to in that manner without any provocation whatsoever. I now understand that wasn't the case and you took it to mean I was provoking you in the same way. I would have responded in the same way if I thought provocative comments were directed at me unjustly. Thats why I shot back in the first place at the poster's comments I mentioned.
I also have made the mistake of getting defensive at people's posts when they weren't even directed at me. I will try and be more specific with who I have any grievances with in the future.

------------------

Interesting studies. Thanks again Theta.

The poison is in the dose. (~Paracelsus)

If you take 10x the maximum dose of salt/day, you'd be sick too.

Water OD kills also.

Meth users are taking 50-100x what ADDers are...

Methamphetamine may have some special properties that make it dose per dose more toxic than other common stimulants but those other stimulants likely do have a measurable risk of neurotoxicity also. The quanties of methamphetamine used in neurotoxicity studies are insanely high though.

d-meth at 20 mg /kg is used in many neurotoxicity studies. d-methamphetamine is at least 3 times as potent as adderal. That would equate to 60 mg /kg of adderall(in a single dose at a time and for a number of days in some studies). A 75 kg person would have to take 1500 mg of 100% pure
d-methamphetamine at one time or 4500 mg of adderral. Assuming it has the same molar toxicity (which I don't ) 135.21 /149.23 * 1500 = 1359 mg adderal. Oh excessive dopamine itself is likely a major factor in neurotoxicity of methamphetamine thats why its likely toxic relative to its potency and half-life (both greater than adderall). Thats why the 4500 mg adderall estimate is likely a low estimate when compared to 1500 mg d-meth.

Anyway 120 mg adderall daily is a reasonable amount for a 75 kg person to take over a day. 120 /4500 * 100 = 2.7% or less of the d-meth toxic dose.

So thats like comparing a person who drinks 1 12 oz can of beer over the entire day and one who drinks 37 cans instantly.

Also many common substance can block the neurotoxicity effect of methamphetamine and presumably could do the same for other stimulants.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48296

Very nice post. Very helpful. Thanks.

Your defensiveness is misplaced. Are you implying its ignorant of me

Implications are all in your perception not my presentation - I am as blunt as they come I rarely imply any thing - I do get tired of people reading things into my post that I don't write -

Stick to the words as they are written, please do not read any thing into them. Avoid applying your own emotions and you shall get much closer to understanding my true intention thus freeing you to disagree with my presentation minus un-necessary drama accusations tend to create.

I simply answered your question based upon my experience - plain and simple Apparently you didn't like the answer that is your prerogative - Please do keep the emotional applications confined to your own experience - I am basically ambivalent. If I decide to give a damn I will NOT be relying on implication. I will leave little room for doubt


Whatever the reason for your defensiveness, chill out and get off your high horse because your talking to someone who has been on adderall for a decade who, as was stated very simply in the original post, was just curious if anyone had any info or seen studies done on this topic.


Your accusations are illogical bordering on irrational -

our talking to someone who has been on adderall for a decade

AS ARE YOU!!!!!

I said so straight out in my post - I was providing the evidence I had = myself and the evidence I am not brain dead.

I provided an example of some thing I wrote that is sort of close to this subject and asked you to judge for your self -

How you read accusation into that I haven't a clue.

I see all exchanges like this:

What I write is a reflection of who I am it has absolutely nothing to do with you.

How you respond is a direct reflection of who you are having nothing to do with me.

We each act and react based upon our own experiences and perceptions - not someone else's.

My bad, I was going through zoloft withdrawal for a couple days, most anything anybody said was a personal attack against me during that time. I overreacted in not waiting to determine whether you were being defensive or not and jumping to conclusions.
I disagree that it is THAT hard to see how the post could be mis-interpreted as defensive (I got a couple comments complementing my reply from others who obviously saw things from my perspective), but regardless I over-reacted too quickly before being sure of your intentions.
I am a overly sensitive, overly emotional nutcase to begin with and going through zoloft-withdrawal I am doubly so. :( Sorry if I offended.

Take the meth of out the equation and IMO if one stayed awake for multiple days, did not eat or brush their teeth and basically let themselves go, other than the fact it would be harder to stay awake this long, the end result would be similar-- a messed up person.


Totally agree with you there. The lack of sleep + general poor health and diet + method of administration are huge factors in the destruction caused by meth. I'm not sure about the drug itself because I haven't seen enough credible research done on its longterm use. As far as I know the exact long term effects of methamphetmine aren't known.

Meth abusers and addicts aren't always taking grams a day. Through my work experience I saw people who abused and even ended up addicted to much lower doses than that. It all comes down to what your idea of 'abuse' or 'addict' is. Does X mg/g a day = Y abuse/addict, or is it more about the intent of the user?

Amphetamines have been researched and commonly used for a long time. I think it's fair to say they're pretty bloody safe for healthy adults at recommended doses.


edit: Theta I just read your posts and just want to thank you for the information. Didn't realize that it had been studied that much. Suzzane - awesome post very true about amphetamines being a match and meth a volcano - there's so much potential for abuse with meth .

Just one thing theta do you mean 100mg is a normal dose for adults? That's a bit extreme I reckon, more like 20mg-40mg dexamphet. (even though some people will need more)

(I got a couple comments complementing my reply from others who obviously saw things from my perspective)Negative peer pressure can be a ***** when you're not thinking clearly.

Kurt,
I appreciate your comments on your mood at the time of your post.

But I want to object still: you are NOT a nutcase. You are not. Please do NOT go there. We all have aspects of ourselves that we want to work on. But labeling yourself that (even in a playful sense) is NOT helpful for improving ourselves in the way we want. Frankly (and I only speak from experience), it can be pretty demoralizing to label ourselves that.

Hang in there, bro.