Stimulants help everyone... it doesn't prove one has ADHD. Low doses of stimulants make everyone calm, it's not a paradoxal effect. Everyone will feel "better" taking amphetamine. Or at the very least, some people will react nice to some nad nto to others, but this happens among those professionally diagnosed with ADHD and those not...

If they didn't "help" everyone, all these children being misdiagnosed wouldn't be improving at all.. yea so what they are drugging kids... kids need it or else.

Im at the point where I dont care if ADHD exists or I have it. I'm just going to take the free speed and use it to my advantage... it would make no difference what I think these drugs will help anyone anyway.... we are kidding ourselves to think we are special.

I have only one question. I once heard a meth abuser with ADHD mention once he was diagnosed he then thought he had a reason why when all his friends were tweaking on 100mg doses of methamphetamine he was just falling asleep on the couch unlike everyone else ****ing like rabbits or jumping around or talking. So, I ask any here that can verify... did massive amounts of meth or amp or rit or coke make you act really different from what would be expected at 100mg doses or from what everyone else did when intoxicated?

I remember passing out a few times on meth. When I was in my active addiction I just thought I had to much and it was my body's way of getting me to stop before I over dosed.

I never kept track of a pattern, so I can't tell you if it depended on how much I had or how long I had been awake those times I did pass out. But I do remember passing out more than once. Maybe only a handful of times. Then again there is a lot from that time period I don't remember.

Its a good theory. It will be interesting to see what others have to say about it.

zoie, I used to wake up, and everY light in the house was on...
...people were running everywhere..

Once I woke up and speedfreaks were playing cards on my back!


LOL!

...when I was a young speedfReak (meth addict)...like 22 years old.....I literally woke up on my feet.
like....OK! I'M RESTED!!! WHICH WAY DO I GO??!!

Stimulants help everyone... it doesn't prove one has ADHD.

Yeah the best way to look at is to measure real quantifiable variables. Like various types of working memory, etc. The relative levels of each really decide
if you have an impairment and the percent change taking a medication yields determines if the risk of that medication is justified.

theta, I can smell your brains....they are spicy.

Oh I know I get plenty of benefits to keep taking them, like:

- Mind shut the **** up so it can pay attention to wahts going on in the environment
- process what im sensing accurately
- concentrate on things and see the whole, things as they are (i,e, music, landscape, book page, etc)
- depression gone
- anxiety gone
- self-esteem improved and negative thinkign patterns are lessening every month... very slowly... but getting there...
- dont feel like im in a big hurry to do nothing al day...
and on and on it goes, i really dont care to relate anymore

theta, I can smell your brains....they are spicy.

I sense an imminent zombie attack....runs....:)

well there's also the inevitble flip side....

with it....

self absorbed
hyperfocused
won't shut up
dependent on a drug

without it...

agoraphobic
squirally
fog
headaches
frustration
thought blasts

don't get me wrong...
....I'm all for it.

but we go from ding bat to semi prodigy/mad scientist

with no inbetween. *sigh*

at least for me.

......if I could just relax, and be happy where i am once.
I HAVE to bring paper and pencils, in case i have to sit down and be quiet.
that's how I do it...like a kid, I gotta have something to do to quiet me down.

I'm never in THIS moment.
...always the NEXT moment...

and I'm always in a hurry....to go....nowhere.

theta, I am a ghoul...but, I don't eat brains.
....I do wish I had one....a left brain..

I got all right brain.
........all pictures and music and ideas...

but no rational, math, and small print capabilities.

It's like this calm feeling we all equate with having ADHD is really just being partially high and happy... let's be honest. Everyone needs a fix.

*is hugged, hugs back*

Mincan,

As far as differences go,there's a difference in genetic contribution, as well as in brain chemistry & structure (between individuals with & without ADHD).

Often times, many chemically dependent individuals turn out to have ADHD; and were "self-medicating" with stimulants.

The Risk Factors for untreated ADHD are devastating in scope & nature; so there's little in that regard I'd call "special."

Also,the metric for measuring ADHD related impairments is Developmental Deviance (i.e., the symptoms represent developmental delays; compared to same age/gender,non-ADHD peers).

In other words, the ADHD symptoms do not create impairments (problems) for same age/gender non-ADHD peers.

That's why the Clinical Threshold is Impairment(s).

Lastly,I think the best description of ADHD,of which there are many, is that it's a Trait, representing the lower end of the normal developmental curve ( we do mature, just never completely "catch up" with our same age/gender, non-ADHD peers).

good luck& tc
mctavish23
(Robert)

Excellent post sir, just wish there was this evidence you speak of, which everyone claims isnt verifyiable... but I am confident they will find it if given enough time before the end of the world...

so you mean if I want more amphetamine I just need toask and say well im not able to think and socialise as well as my peers.

The ADHD Book of Lists by Sandra Rief (Jossey-Bass) Section 1.1

Taking Charge of ADHD (Revised) by Russ Barkley (Guilford Press) (2002)

Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder: A Handbook for Diagnosis & Treatment (Third Edition) by Eric J.Mash & Russell Barkley (Guilford Press) (2006)

Russell Barkley on ADHD @ www.schwablearning.org

Take your pick

tc
mctavish23
(Robert)

Im not disagreeing with you personally mctavish and Ive read all that stuff... I can speak to someone if they were interested on the subject of neuroscience for hours.

I'm saying there is nothing yet that shuts up people who want to doubt this exists.

Mincan,

Excellent point.

I toally agree.

Several yeas ago, I developed my own Brief (therapist centered) therapy; modeled after Happy Bunny.

I called it STFU.

You should have seen the look on the face of our former psychiatrist when I suggested she use it with rude people.

Funny thing though, non-ADHD people don't laugh at the same stuff we do.

Go Figure.

tc
mctavish23
(Robert)

Stimulants help everyone... it doesn't prove one has ADHD. Low doses of stimulants make everyone calm, it's not a paradoxal effect. Everyone will feel "better" taking amphetamine. Or at the very least, some people will react nice to some nad nto to others, but this happens among those professionally diagnosed with ADHD and those not...

If they didn't "help" everyone, all these children being misdiagnosed wouldn't be improving at all.. yea so what they are drugging kids... kids need it or else.

Im at the point where I dont care if ADHD exists or I have it. I'm just going to take the free speed and use it to my advantage... it would make no difference what I think these drugs will help anyone anyway.... we are kidding ourselves to think we are special.

I have only one question. I once heard a meth abuser with ADHD mention once he was diagnosed he then thought he had a reason why when all his friends were tweaking on 100mg doses of methamphetamine he was just falling asleep on the couch unlike everyone else ****ing like rabbits or jumping around or talking. So, I ask any here that can verify... did massive amounts of meth or amp or rit or coke make you act really different from what would be expected at 100mg doses or from what everyone else did when intoxicated?

I wanted to thank you for this post. I have just recently started Adderall and have asked if it helps others feel calmer, but I still wondered if this is typical for ADHD or happens for non-ADHDers also. I could not really find any data to deny or confirm this.

I wanted to thank you for this post. I have just recently started Adderall and have asked if it helps others feel calmer, but I still wondered if this is typical for ADHD or happens for non-ADHDers also. I could not really find any data to deny or confirm this.

I found this on PubMed

The improved "attention" exhibited by hyperactive children treated with amphetamine-like compounds is postulated to be related to a normal action of these drugs in producing stereotyped behavior. Such activity can be conceptualised as an increased "focusing" of attention, which would be expected to aid performance in tasks involving sustained concentration of attention, but impair performance on tasks involving reversals in cognitive strategy. These behavioural actions of the drugs can be linked to the functioning of central dopaminergic mechanisms.

Mincan, what is "reversals in cognitive strategies"? Please?

"reversal in cognitive strategy" ??? Don't you just love the way some scientific papers can say something that looks at first glance quite logical but at the second glance makes no sense unless you 're "clued into" the language of that particular esoteric branch of science in that country/area.

Maybe it means thinking outside the box, or reacting well to sudden unforseen/surprising events?

kilt

I assume that means having to use a different strategy to accomplish a mental task...?

Mincan, what is "reversals in cognitive strategies"? Please?

I was curious about this, too, so I did some poking around. I think the abstract of the study found at this link explains it pretty well.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6SYT-4G94G7K-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=935d301edd2853b5327930b30beba673

I think stimulants can benefit almost anyone. The difference is in which ways it helps some people.

I have a friend who doesn't have ADHD but he has acquired Adderall on a couple of occasions and I've hung out out with him while he was under its influence. Mainly it gives him a lot of energy, but doesn't necessarily improve his social skills or greatly affect his attention span(as he doesn't have problems in these areas).

It affects me in a very different way. It improves my socialibility, helps me stay on task, improves my short-term memory and attention...all the things you would expect it to help in someone with ADHD.

I was curious about this, too, so I did some poking around. I think the abstract of the study found at this link explains it pretty well.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6SYT-4G94G7K-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=935d301edd2853b5327930b30beba673

Thanks, Minicooper. I must need a nap 'cause I'm still not getting my head around this.

I had the joy of owning an Austin Mini 850, many moons ago. Not great on the freeway :eek:, but an awesome city car. You could park that puppy anywhere.

see ritalin doesn't give me a high.. it makes me feel normal.. if there is such a thing..

When i take it i can sit still.. if i don't i cant..

Too me it's as simple as that

I'm saying there is nothing yet that shuts up people who want to doubt this exists.

There is no evidence that there exists something that would convince these individuals into believing something different.

Thanks for that Data.

I'm saying there is nothing yet that shuts up people who want to doubt this exists.

The brain is really complex, no one really know exactly how it work. Here is how I think we all stand today about this:

We know about the biology, the chemistry, the basics functions of the brain cells. This is what I would call proven scientific facts. People tend to believe blindly about researches in those fields.

On a larger scale, there is lots of study on behavior, psychology... Although scientifically good, people can doubt the results. The complexity of being human is hard to put on paper. ADHD fit this second reality, people can doubt it exist.

Unless we can bridge the gap between these two reality, there will always be people who doubt. A blood test would "shuts up people who want to doubt this exists".

Don't get me wrong here, I strongly believe it exist.

I gotta ask you Mincan~
.....do you randomly shout cuss words? you have terret?

We know about the biology, the chemistry, the basics functions of the brain cells. This is what I would call proven scientific facts. People tend to believe blindly about researches in those fields.
My doctor believes we still don't know **** about the brain. :rolleyes:

Unless we can bridge the gap between these two reality, there will always be people who doubt. A blood test would "shuts up people who want to doubt this exists".

That, and a clear line of evidence that gives way to what is being checked in the test, and why it implies the disorder. I doubt that it will ever be this simple though. ADHD(definition) is likely not going to map directly to ADHD(etiology) { different causes for different subtypes, multiple causes for the same subtype, etc. }. Some will deterministically not believe something that they do not understand (as opposed to being undecided about something), and if the evidence is hard to understand (and continues to be that way, no matter how good it is), then there is a low probability of changing their minds.

Stimulants help everyone... it doesn't prove one has ADHD.
Help in a positive way or a negative one? I don't know how being on stimulants 'helps' someone with someone without ADHD, but I know it helped me.

I suppose I shouldn't make a clear line between the relief of my symptoms and my medication. All I know is that I tried everything to conquer my inability to focus and concentrate, and nothing ever came close to making any impact the way my medications did.

Mincan, you can take your chances with illegal street drugs and hope that you can function effectively the way you can with regulated prescribed medication. Somehow I doubt the results will be positive. Say what you will about dexedrine and all of those other ADHD drugs. No police officer or judge will commend you for doing good work while using illegal substances. Not to mention the fact that the producers and sellers of your medication don't give a flick about what they're giving you. Not saying that your neighborhood phramacist is going to care either , but at least the law says they have to.

Again, it's your choice to be angry and deny you have something. It takes an awful amount of energy to sustain this anger, and what will you get in return?

Just as an FYI,

There's no lab test for Schizophrenia or Bipolar Disorder either.

In fact, Nowhere does it say that's necessary.

When you get a chance, please check out International Consensus 2002.

It's THE definitive research article on the existence of ADHD as a disorder.

tc
mctavish23
(Robert)

Just as an FYI,

There's no lab test for Schizophrenia or Bipolar Disorder either.

In fact, Nowhere does it say that's necessary.

When you get a chance, please check out International Consensus 2002.

It's THE definitive research article on the existence of ADHD as a disorder.

tc
mctavish23
(Robert)

Here it is: http://psych.colorado.edu/~willcutt/pdfs/Barkley_2002.pdf

I needed to re-read that... this will help me keep on trying nad not turn to drugs.. I think turning to drugs is like saying htat i dont have the disorder and im just a screw up so i give up... and all the pain i have i jsut want peace... but i can get some peace maybe by becoming moderately successful at something.

I tried coke 2 times, but it put me to sleep. I'd get tired and want to lie down and nap. I didn't enjoy being 'doped', so I didn't do it after that.the other people taking it were very excitable and active.

Coke, speed and other stimulants never affected me quite the way they did my peers. If anything, they made me less social, and definitely took me out of "party-mode". I felt like I belonged in the library or something.

That said, I agree with the general premise of this post. If you gave any 3rd grader 5 mgs of Ritalin a day for three weeks, his performance and attention would improve.

who cares if those without cognitive deficits improved or not. The goal is to take the kids who are space cadets, cognitively unaware of their environments and unable to sustain attention and take them from one standard deviation or two out of the norm and back to the normal range and return them to baseline, just like the rest of their peers. I was a graduate school teacher for earlier learning and state this fact their are those that elect not to pay attention and then their are those kids with adhd that cannot choose what to pay attention to , they are space cadets ....These are the victims of attention deficit and the medications are their for them to normalize the playing field. Thus , who cares what happens to those who take the medication without the disorder, that is really of no interest to me---Medications are not perfect as few things are but the important fact that remains is that these drugs and medications provide students like myself to focus and pay attention just like everybody else. That's my two cents -

Great post sir.