Is there anything wrong with teaching that praise, positive reinforcement and rewards should be the m.o. with ADDers, or asking non-ADDers to use that m.o. whenever possible?

Is there a point where that goes too far? For example, should ADDers have to learn to expect, deal with and respond to negative reinforcement? Can we insist that NTers play by our rules even in an NT world?

ADDAWAY,

You've raised an excellent point.

The truth is that the only evidence based (empirically(research supported) treatment (other than meds) for ADHD is a rewards based behavior management/home token economy program, that balances natural & logical consequences with a range of rewards(from small(daily) to bigger (weekly),etc.

A reward is NOT a bribe. In this context, the goal is to reinforce the completion of a task.

Whether the target behavior is to increase something or decrease another type of behavior, the use of rewards is in keeping with the way the world works.

I get a paycheck every two weeks for my work.

I don't get a bribe.

Children's "work" is really schoolwork, appropriate behavior,completion of daily routines & chores.

A bribe is where you get some type of gain by influencing another(i.e.,like a kick back or payoff under the table).

There are 3 key points to recognize here;

1) ADHD symptoms are manifested via Executuve Function impairments ( i.e,. Executive Dysfunction).

The EF's don't acquire knowledge, they apply it. Consequently, you can't "teach" the ADHD child "responsibility" by punsihing them for not completing their daily classwork in school, or for doing it and then either losing it , or forgetting to turn it in.

Those are proven brain based functions that have NOTHING to do with "Choice."

However, you can influence the results by way of accommodations & rewards.

That's where #2 comes in:

2) The Point of Performance- that is where the target behavior occurs.

In other words, if you want to impact improvement in social skills, you have to go to the "source" if you will, ie.,the school and/or the playground,etc.

That's why I no longer do any individual interventions regarding ADHD in my office.

What I do is use Family therapy to teach parents how to establish & consistently maintain, a rewards based behavior management / home token economy program.

The caveat though is that, in all likelihood, the parents have ADHD themselves.

As part of my evidence based assessment, I give them lots of handouts on ADHD, that cover everything mentioned here.

It's strictly up to them; as I can't and don't diagnose parents of the kids I see.

Lastly, #3 is in regards to consistency:

3) The ADHD individual will work for rewards and receive benefit from structure (i.e., sitting next to or with the child while they do homework, or walk them through a chore, or simply watch them perfrom it.If necessary, even break it down into smaller steps; as long as it's one thing at a time).

However, the very minute you remove the structure/guidance & rewards, the behavior ALWAYs returns to baseline ( as though the change never happened).

It's a little more complicated & involved but hopefully,I explained it well enough to make some sense and not create confusion.

Thanks again.

tc
mctavish23
(Robert)

Is there anything wrong with teaching that praise, positive reinforcement and rewards should be the m.o. with ADDers, or asking non-ADDers to use that m.o. whenever possible?

Is there a point where that goes too far? For example, should ADDers have to learn to expect, deal with and respond to negative reinforcement? Can we insist that NTers play by our rules even in an NT world?

I think it depends on the situation.

If I'm a role where my function is to teach/mentor someone with ADHD, than skills like frequent positive reinforcement are necessary towards a successful relationship with the ADHDer. So in those situations, you have to ask the non-ADHDer to adapt new modes of thought/abilities.

But as you point out, not every situation we encounter will be ADHD friendly. So when we face those situations, than we (the ones with ADHD)have to use skills/knowledge to navigate through it successfully.

Praise and positive reinforcement--I think these are good for everyone right? ... So I'm not sure I understand the question ... perhaps you can rephrase it for us ...

Are you saying that praise and reinforcement should be enough to regulate adhd behavior? ... Cognitive therapy is in some sense positive reinforcement as it tries to get people to look for the rewards of certain behavior and the negative effects of certain views ....

Clearly good parenting and nurturing are good--but they're good for everyone ... and maybe for some people with milder cases of adhd, this is enough ... I can't imagine this is enough for others ... I had plenty of reinforcement for positive behavior over the years, but with my adhd brain, it doesn't mean I could remember the positive goal or keep it in mind when tempted by the negative pattern ...

Adhd is after all a condition of poor executive function and implementation ... I intellectually understand the benefits that would come from meeting deadlines, being more organized and all ... I'd make a lot more money and get more promotions ... I understand that and have experienced it ... doesn't mean I can keep focused based on this .... I've needed education, therapy and medications as well ....

maybe you wanna say more ....

ADHD individuals rarely get praised.

We usually get treated as though we're "lazy" or don't care.

Worse yet, we are viewed as though the symptoms represent "choices."

I still don't get any positive feedback at work.

Outside of work, yes.
tc
mctavish23
(Robert)

Is there anything wrong with teaching that praise, positive reinforcement and rewards should be the m.o. with ADDers, or asking non-ADDers to use that m.o. whenever possible?


I don't think so as it can only be helpful and isn't harmful.

Is there a point where that goes too far? For example, should ADDers have to learn to expect, deal with and respond to negative reinforcement? Can we insist that NTers play by our rules even in an NT world?

I think a parent, friend, spouse, employer etc. has some responsibility in trying to be helpful, learn at least some about ADD, depending on how much of an effect they have on the adder. Same as if someone has a physical disorder that may hinder them. That is in a perfect world though.

The same with ADDers, we have the responsibility to try and understand the other side too. I think it would be unrealistic to insist. Insistence is almost like an order which usually never gets us what we want.

It is very frustrating to live with people who think ADD is BS. I know I do it with my boyfriend and he has lots of support in his belief its BS. He will tell me all the time I have a choice if I forget something, and use an ex of "well you didn't forget such and such because you enjoy doing that". When put that way and seeing it from his perception he appears correct.

I think the main thing is that people with ADD find out as soon as possible. Just learning I have it boosted my self esteem, I don't feel so stupid and lazy anymore. I guess its more important for me to adapt as I am the one with the ADD, and I know I cant change others. If I had a child with it I would want to teach them whatever coping skills and why others may react negatively to them.

You guys are making me sad. I get daily, positive reinforcement at work and I'm expected to treat others that way too; it has nothing to do with ADHD.

One, it's not possible to AVOID negative "reinforcement" (amost an oxymoron, no?). There will always be NTers in our lives (and even ADDers, since it's sort of a reflex) who will do it, and so, yes, in answer to your last question, Addaway, I believe that we have to expect, deal with, and respond to negative "correction," which is what I'll call it. But a more accurate phraseology, it seems to me, is "gross correction." Because one can "correct" in very subtle ways and get a FAR better effect through consistency than one can get with big, GROSS corrections on an inconsistent basis.

Second, regardless of whether one is an ADDer or an NTer, positive rewards are a better way to go. Y'all can tease me if you want about this, but since I don't have kids, this is what I have to go on.... I look at the most effective methods of dog training, horse training, what have you and ask what works? Far and away the most effective training methods work with the animal's nature (its instincts, desires, "strengths," if you will) and encourage it to express that nature in a way that is to the trainer's benefit, etc. By doing that, one can get the animal to do things that actually go AGAINST it instincts or nature; it just requires creativity. (Dogs guard sheep, do they not? Horses allow apex predators (us) to sit on their backs or to coax them into little tiny metal boxes that move and clank, etc.... These are EXTRAORDINARY things if we think about them. Every time I walk a horse into a trailer I marvel at the trust that they put in us.)

Finally, the most critical point is that one must understand and accept the animal's nature. Dogs are pack animals and predators. Horses are herd animals and prey/flight animals. Cats are... well... cats (LOL! Kidding! I have and love all three, btw, or at least I used to before we had to put our fabulous Samoyed to sleep... :(). What do I mean by this? If I'm mindful of their natures and how they communicate with one another, a dog and a horse will both look to me (the pack/herdmate) for "guidance," and if I "model" the right behavior (with "corrections" that are not gross, but in fact quite subtle and really just amount to a "please look at me and try again") and praise it when the animal gets it right (love up the dog, give it a toy, give it a treat, or release the pressure on the horse (first) and love it up (second, can't love up before releasing the pressure because they're flight animals and may interpret the loving up as aggressive)) then I'll get what I want.

I learned this one the hard way with my horse. She's highly sensitive and reacts to strong "corrections" by becoming worse and worse. LOL, she's an ADDer horse. Not all horses are this way. My first horse was a piece of cake. But this one is a real piece of work, and when it became clear that I literally was NOT up to the task of being subtle enough to handle her, I had two choices: give her up, or become a better horsewoman. I chose the latter. I've learned a lot. It isn't perfect, but it works. I have a hard time believing that dogs and horses are so different from humans. I think that we are just another form of social animal. And those who insist on using negative, gross "corrections" (and I'm not immune obviously) are demonstrating a lack of imagination. Sorry. But I really believe that that is true. It isn't that WE have the right to INSIST that our managers/supervisors/partners adapt to us: it's that they should realize that THEY'D be better managers/supervisors/partners if they did.

I'm sorry McTavish,
I missed your point. Of course we adhd'ers need positive feedback and reinforcement. Absolutely we do!

Of course ... i do have some good friends who give me support when I feel bad about myself. I have colleagues who are supportive. I can basically function at work; my problem is in relationships. It is in that area that I get overwhelmed and boy, do I not get much positive reinforcement. I get a lot of negative feedback, which leads to more fear in me and on and on ....

Definitely adhd'ers need lots of good love and support and friendship and acceptance.

(I'm approaching this from a "couples" perspective. Not to be confused with raising children)

I love getting praise from my spouse. (Maybe because it's rare! :D) I get a boost from the little atta-boys, etc. I stand a little taller, poke my chest out... that kind of thing. She likes to get the same thing from me, as well. I tell her that I think she looks wonderful in her outfit before she leaves for work, I tell her I'm proud that she accomplished something.

I believe it's a necessity in an intimate and committed relationship. Through praise and respectful acknowledgment we cultivate a deep love for and with each other. This is a positive aspect of praise.

But in adding a "reward" or to praise with the intent of changing a behavior in another to better suit your wants is self-serving and manipulation. My gut tells me when someone is being less than sincere about something, or when the motive isn't necessarily in my best interest.

Absolutely, there should be praise in a relationship, but it should be given out of pure intentions.

Agreed, Grafter. I think that one thing that's very important with our spouses is that they recognize when certain things are harder for us than for them (like, for me, getting out the door on time). It's hard for my hubby to "praise" me for that, because he feels like he's talking down to me. But it IS hard for me, so when he says, "Hey, good for you," I still like that.

Apparently Addaway was trying to get at a different question here, though, which is how should WE deal with the negative "reinforcement" that we inevitably get? How to process it and deal with it, etc.? My thinking on that is, find the kernel of truth to the criticism, (if any, if not, ignore it) re-package it into a goal, and then work on the goal without taking the criticism to heart. Easier said than done, but that's how I think we have to deal with it, because it's always going to be out there.

It is tempting, though, to fantasize about saying to my law partners: your behavior is demonstrating little other than a complete lack of imagination on your part, people... :mad:

OOoooo, boy, I'll bet they'd quake in their boots at THAT one! ;):D

Apparently Addaway was trying to get at a different question here, though, which is how should WE deal with the negative "reinforcement" that we inevitably get? How to process it and deal with it, etc.? My thinking on that is, find the kernel of truth to the criticism, (if any, if not, ignore it) re-package it into a goal, and then work on the goal without taking the criticism to heart. Easier said than done, but that's how I think we have to deal with it, because it's always going to be out there.
(bolding owned by me)

That's exactly how you deal with it, Sandy. You're spot on. If people take every single negative comment to heart, then they'll get nowhere. Take out of it the constructive criticism that will help you best and leave the rest.

The general guideline for positive reinforcement:negative reinforcement is 4:1; for every 1 negative comment, 4 positive comments will help motivate the person.

Now that I have actually read all the responses what was the question?

Love that ADD "duh what" moment -


Is there anything wrong with teaching that praise, positive reinforcement and rewards should be the m.o. with ADDers, or asking non-ADDers to use that m.o. whenever possible?

No - but I think we should be willing to lead by example.

Is there a point where that goes too far?

Yes

For example, should ADDers have to learn to expect, deal with and respond to negative reinforcement?

Yes

Can we insist that NTers play by our rules even in an NT world?

Insist the world play by my rules? Some how I have a feeling it won't work mostly because it has never worked before why should it begin now.

Despite our "executive dysfunction or what ever we don't go around sticking our hand in open flames. We may be ADD incapible of remembering the consequences of our actions or some thing like that we do normally open doors before attempting to walk through them ??

We may be accused of not fully grasping cause and effect - which in my opinion is questionable {another thread perhaps} but we do savvy PAIN and unpleasantnesses. If it hurts when we do "this" was tend to avoid doing "this" do we not? So eliminating all negative feedback isn't really logical either - seeing most remember negative more than positive any way.

Life shouldn't be about going from pain to pain nor should it be presented as a pleasure cruise -

Life is full of positives and negatives we must learn to deal with both {IMHO}


McTavish I used a token economy system with my children and it works well for many things - I also had a list of behaviors that would reap negative consequences just as there were behavior that would reap positive ones.

So I would remain consistent and consequences would be a reflection of behavior choices and not parental moods rules were written much like the guidelines here are - they were there for parental and off spring review alike - consequences such as restriction early bed times ect were written on a family calendar and my personal appointment book when children got the notion to make the family calendar disappear - keeping things written down.

I also tried to lead by example - just as I expected the children to keep me updated to there where about I tried to keep them updated on mine - please do remember I reared my children during the days before cell phone ownership - so contact meant knowing where some one was. My children had a consistent bed time as did I - they had chores and I do also.

I saw parenting as preparing my children for adulthood - and I did my best to keep that as a reason behind all of my parenting decisions. I fought my twins Dad tooth and nail but I refused the notion of other discipline - instead I concentrated on cause and effect - I had some whopper of challenges and so far cause and effect has won hands down even in children who are ADD with co-morbid disorders - we are different than NTers not better or worse simply different - we do not see thing as they do not they us but the notion that different is some who bad is one belief system than needs to be ditch ASAP - before the fallacy destroys us all

Diversity isn't the enemy fear of it is


Apparently Addaway was trying to get at a different question here, though, which is how should WE deal with the negative "reinforcement" that we inevitably get? How to process it and deal with it, etc.? My thinking on that is, find the kernel of truth to the criticism, (if any, if not, ignore it) re-package it into a goal, and then work on the goal without taking the criticism to heart. Easier said than done, but that's how I think we have to deal with it, because it's always going to be out there.


I am a simply minded person who must keep thing simple if they are going to be of much use to me

I see negative reinforcement as information - when some one tells me they do not like this that or the other they are offering me information about how they see life - if they say some thing negative about me it is still a reflection of their perception it doesn't have to be mine - Yes I do try to see things from their point of view I want to be considerate of others and in order to do I must take their perspectives into consideration but taking another perspective into consideration means I may or may not agree with it . . .I try to emotionally detach myself from the situation and this often helps me to be able to see "it" more objectively - emotions may be involved however they are not always an indicator of reality.

Being imperfect making a mistake or having an annoying trait isn't the end of the world - as a matter of fact our mistakes flaws and annoying traits makes us all the much a part of the human experience Understanding this helps me not feel like looser of the year every time some one doesn't like some thing I have said done or decided -

Perfection doesn't exist on a global scale - the illusion of perfection is merely the delusion of an imperfect mind - ;)

You rock, Meadd. Your parenting sounds very predictable, and to me, predictable is good. My dad was predictable (if a bit extreme in his punishments on occasion). Again, though I'm relating to animals, that's another thing that I've learned from my limits-testing 1000 lb. little girl: consistency is critical. It clearly makes her less anxious. And thinking back on my childhood, a lot of my anxiety came from my mother's unpredictability/inconsistency. So maybe one key to the appropriate application of negative feedback is that it should be meted out in very predictable ways.

I'm thinking about Addaway's question and how I handled it recently when one of my law partners reamed me out over missing an internal deadline in full view/hearing of a bunch of support staff and other lawyers. I reacted to the (to use lawyerly terms) "time, place, and manner" of the reaming by getting a little bit snippy. I was FLOORED that he said what he said, where he said it, in the tone in which he said it, and with the words that he used, which included profanity, in part because this guy has a reputation for being extremely professional all the time --- though this was not the first time that I'd seen him have a little temper tantrum like that. I've been angry at a subordinate before, but I've never raised my voice, never used profanity (though I'm a trash mouth under normal, stress-free situations), never had an outburst of any kind at a subordinate, so far as I can recall, even when I had a VERY good reason for it. So I couldn't believe that this supposedly above-reproach guy demonstrated such an outrageous lack of control and I was very disappointed in him for that. But I fully understood his frustration and the kernel of truth to the criticism. What bugs me is that, when there's that kernel of truth --- and when we're talking about adults, as opposed to kids --- no one seems to pay much attention to the extreme negative effects (increasing anxiety, etc.) that such behavior engenders. Because we're all big boys and girls, it's assumed that the deliverer of such a tirade is immune from criticism, whereas the "bad" subordinate is still ultimately to blame.

I just hope that he's still alive when one day ADHD becomes a better understood disability. I'd love to remind the man that he essentially reamed out a deaf person for not "listening" well enough.... :mad:

Mctavish - I'm not going to quote your entire post (#2), but 6 years of experience with my ADHD/poss Autistic Spectrum child supports everything you said. Especially:
The ADHD individual will work for rewards and receive benefit from structure (i.e., sitting next to or with the child while they do homework, or walk them through a chore, or simply watch them perfrom it.If necessary, even break it down into smaller steps; as long as it's one thing at a time).

However, the very minute you remove the structure/guidance & rewards, the behavior ALWAYs returns to baseline ( as though the change never happened).


Same thing with punishments. My husband is all about punishments, I'm more toward rewards (because it works better). But both of us fail at consistency. My husband's not home enough, and my own ADHD+ makes it virtually impossible to remember, keep track, or be consistent about ANYTHING. I'm learning.

McTavish I used a token economy system with my children and it works well for many things - I also had a list of behaviors that would reap negative consequences just as there were behavior that would reap positive ones.

So I would remain consistent and consequences would be a reflection of behavior choices and not parental moods rules were written much like the guidelines here are - they were there for parental and off spring review alike - consequences such as restriction early bed times ect were written on a family calendar and my personal appointment book when children got the notion to make the family calendar disappear - keeping things written down.

I also tried to lead by example - just as I expected the children to keep me updated to there where about I tried to keep them updated on mine - please do remember I reared my children during the days before cell phone ownership - so contact meant knowing where some one was. My children had a consistent bed time as did I - they had chores and I do also.

I saw parenting as preparing my children for adulthood - and I did my best to keep that as a reason behind all of my parenting decisions. I fought my twins Dad tooth and nail but I refused the notion of other discipline - instead I concentrated on cause and effect - I had some whopper of challenges and so far cause and effect has won hands down even in children who are ADD with co-morbid disorders - we are different than NTers not better or worse simply different - we do not see thing as they do not they us but the notion that different is some who bad is one belief system than needs to be ditch ASAP - before the fallacy destroys us all

Meadd - you are amazing. You just outlined everything I WISH I could be/do for my son. I'm not sure why its been so difficult to implement - besides the fact that one moment I'm thinking "that's a great idea - I've got to do that", and the next moment I've forgotten. I know you have lots of your own struggles, and yet you have managed this, so I really applaud you.

I just hope that he's still alive when one day ADHD becomes a better understood disability. I'd love to remind the man that he essentially reamed out a deaf person for not "listening" well enough....

Sandy- love it, and the horse one too

I have very seldom ever saw a person who believes one way, ever get it. Not to say this doesnt happen or there isnt hope. It just seems to be an ego thing with them. Even when they do, they will still hold on to a former belief, as not to admit they were ever wrong.

What has always been so unfair and that I have a issue with is when I am treated badly (and IMO your law partner was abusive), then I have a issue with it, so it is now my problem. When by all rights, it should be their problem because they had a inappropiate response. I think because of this it is important that we learn to deal with the unreasonable.

I'd love to remind the man that he essentially reamed out a deaf person for not "listening" well enough.... :mad:

Well said Sandy.

This is one of the best threads I've read, and hits very close to home for me. My whole career (23 years) has been a constant struggle with how to deal with negative feed back, (aka. gross correction).

I for one feel that yes, we ADDers need to do the best we can to adjust to our environments. Unfortunately, for most of us, that means dealing with negative feedback. But, I also believe that we need to do our best to help foster positive change in our environments, for the benefit of all.

I think that it is a shame that for so many years negative work environments have been the norm. and that it is just now being realized that all people, not just ADDers, work harder, produce more, and are happier, in a positive environment.

As I worked up through the ranks, I always did better with supervisors that used positive reinforcement, though there were very few. When I moved up into supervision, and management, I started using positive reinforcement because that's the way I wanted to be treated. So far it's worked out well for me, even with non ADD subordinates.

The one problem I have run into is my own supervisors have actually chewed me out for being too nice! They did not care that the work was done, on time, and well. They simply thought that I was being too nice.

Changing old ideas, and habits, is hard. But it can be done.

The company that I work for just got done doing a corporate wide management training class on how to manage using positive reinforcement.

Is there anything wrong with teaching that praise, positive reinforcement and rewards should be the m.o. with ADDers, or asking non-ADDers to use that m.o. whenever possible?

Is there a point where that goes too far? For example, should ADDers have to learn to expect, deal with and respond to negative reinforcement? Can we insist that NTers play by our rules even in an NT world?

No, there is nothing wrong with positive reinforcement.

I think everyone needs to learn how to deal with negativity. As I said elsewhere in a thread, (I think it had to do with the reputation stuff) kids in school today and life in general, everything has to be politically correct.

We all have our personal limitations on what we can and can't do. In other words, what I am trying to say, is, don't BS the kids in school making them believe they are something they are not, then when they get in the REAL world, they have a big let down. When I was growing up, I was rather clumsy, small for my age and in addition had asthma. All that said, I would be a terrible football player, today, I would be told to go ahead and play football and that I would also be a great player, when in fact I sucked. Get the point? There needs to be some kind of truth while at the same time being objective and realistic.

We live in a negative society, and everyone it seems, thrives on negativity, especially the media, no wonder I don't read the paper or watch the news. If you weren't depressed before, you would be after-wards. In some ways there is no way around using negative reinforcement when people deviate from what is acceptable behavior. Why do we have jails? So yes, without some type of negative reinforcement/punishment we would live in total chaos.

Hopefully I got my point across in a round about way :)

One thing that most of my law partners NEVER got is that I'm motivated by feeling that someone needs my help. So if you want me to bust my hump for you, tell me that you need me to help you. I LOVE coming to the rescue. Some partners figured this out and used this fact. But the majority took the usual approach of just demanding that I do what I was supposed to do for everyone because that's what I was supposed to do. They didn't work with my main motivator as they could have. That's what I mean about understanding the animal's nature. I'm more like a dog than a horse. I'm eager to please.

Now this is an interesting thing, too, Lynx-y, that for some bizarre free-association ADDish reason I was reminded of by your post (not sure what the connection is). As y'all know, I used to be a public defender, and at one point I represented a lot of sex offenders. A huge number of them have anti-social personality disorder. The prevailing wisdom (as I understand it) is that anti-social personality disordered folks can only be motivated by punishment.

I once had a guy who I represented who was nearly 40 and had been in and out of prison since he was 19 years old. The state never put it together this way (though I would have had I represented it) but since he was 19, he'd been out of prison a TOTAL of three years, and all of that was in short (less than one year) periods of parole. He always blew parole before his time was up by committing a new crime, and therefore went back to prison on the new crime plus the revoked parole. He was on parole when I represented him, and knew that if he went back to prison he'd screw up his case, which was a "test case," meaning that we were raising a new legal issue in it to "test" what the courts would do with it. Darned if he didn't finish parole for the first time in his life.

Now, he had just aged out of his "crime years," so that might have been the reason. But I personally think that he was motivated by the fact that his case would potentially affect other people (i.e., he saw himself as connected to something larger than himself) and also he saw himself as being able to potentially "stick it" to "the man." So those were positive "rewards" for him. So all those years he failed parole, despite the fact that that sent him to prison each time, but the positive rewards motivated him to stick it out. I found that part fascinating.

P.S. TexasMiss, I'm sure that you are right. I have no faith that my one law partner will ever confess to "getting" it because I think that he simply has poor character. But that's fine. If the conventional wisdom shifts to truly recognizing ADD as a disability (I suspect that it will take brain scans becoming de rigeur or something for that to happen), then I'll have the moral high ground (I do anyway, but no one else seems to realize that at the moment). I'll enjoy that simply telling people that story will make them cringe thinking about the "bad old days" in much the same way that we female lawyers cringe today hearing stories about women lawyers in the 70s being told to bring the men coffee, or being left out of bench discussions by judges in open court, etc.