Don't get mad; I know it exists because I have it. However, I am faced with a parent who happens to be a psychiatrist that thinks ADD without hyperactivity is, at best, very rare. He is surprisingly out of touch regarding recent (past 10-15 years or so) developments in this area (frankly, I think he doesn't want to face the possibility that he missed it while I was growing up). I have seen much in this forum and elsewhere about the scientific evidence of ADHD itself, but I have been unable to find references to scientific evidence that it is possible to have ADD without hyperactivity. Can anyone point me in such a direction? I have read most of the sticky on scientific evidence in this forum and didn't see anything specifically on this (though I could easily have missed it).

Thanks in advance for any help!

You can't see the answer because you are looking at the problem backwards.

Inattentive ADHD is described (and defined) on the basis of symptoms. To say that you have not seen evidience that inattentive adhd exists means that you are syaing you have never encountered a person with those symptoms. The fact is, you have encountered someone who has the symptoms of inattentive adhd....yourself. It's defined by symptoms. Conversely, proving that there is no such thing as inattentive adhd is impossible simply because there are so many people who have the symptoms.

Me :D

Nevermind

Thank you Speedo - but I may not have explained myself correctly. I have no doubt that inattentive ADD exists. I am simply looking for some scientific research that I can show to my father.

You can't see the answer because you are looking at the problem backwards.

Inattentive ADHD is described (and defined) on the basis of symptoms. To say that you have not seen evidience that inattentive adhd exists means that you are syaing you have never encountered a person with those symptoms. The fact is, you have encountered someone who has the symptoms of inattentive adhd....yourself. It's defined by symptoms. Conversely, proving that there is no such thing as inattentive adhd is impossible simply because there are so many people who have the symptoms.

Me :D

Thanks for your response. Like I said in my response to speedo, I'm really hoping there is some scientific research I can show my dad. When it comes to questioning it myself, it is obvious that the condition does exist. I, like many people here, have an inner-monologue that does not shut up. It doesn't shut up when I try to sleep, when I'm trying to listen to other people, trying to read, watch tv, even having sex. Naturally this makes all these things more difficult. Also, whenever I want or need to do anything that requires careful thought, I procrastinate - and if I don't have a boss or someone to get on me about it, I will procrastinate forever.

I good example of this is the music I write/try to record. Let's say I want to record a piano solo. I have no problem getting myself to practice. I will not procrastinate that at all, in fact I enjoy it. The thing I will avoid doing is pressing that little "Record" button - why? Because then I have to think about it carefully, making sure I play it exactly the way I hear it in my head. Additionally, I have some screenplays and computer software that I have written that is 99% done and ready to (try to) sell, and have been that way for several years. Why can I not complete the steps to finish it? Because it requires careful thought to make sure there are no little mistakes anywhere. So I put these things off, like I have since I was a kid, "until the last possible moment." However, unless I am doing it for work, there is no obvious last possible moment, and I put it off forever.

Adderall (60 mg) makes these problems go away quite spectacularly. I do not get any of the speed effects - I feel no euphoria, no sense of energy, nothing - but I am able to work all day on the things I want to without procrastinating, without constantly checking my emails every 2 minutes, and without my mind wandering. It's like the Adderall is a firewall that keeps the unwanted attempts to take over my attention from ever reaching my CPU! Consequently, I no longer doubt that I have ADD. :)

Thank you again for your response :)

Well here is my personal goal that I'm working on. I think It might do you some good, I don't know.

My main goal is to putting a list together of things that ADDers suffer from that cannot be accused of me being "lazy, crazy, stupid" so I came up with a few things that to me is concrete evidence that ADHD/ADD exists and that enough of us suffer from the following:

1. A VISUAL-PROCESSING DEFICIT
2. WHOLISM
3. SOCIAL IMMATURITY
4. PHYSICAL COORDINATION PROBLEMS
5. SLUGGISH COGNITIVE TEMPO (STC)
6. OBSESSIVE THOUGHTS (STUCK IN THOUGHTS)

now these are the things that I think I suffer from that prove that ADD is a valid disorder that no one can say 'oh your just lazy' because i think that the description or the definition that has been given to ADHD is too broad and too many 'normal' people can relate to, making ADHD sound frivolous

Now if you tell someone that a most of ADHDers suffer from Visual processing defect that is more tangible and less flakey than 'i can't pay attention long enough'.... it just seems to me that the definitions and symptoms of ADHD are not what they should be.... I do agree with the symptoms but I dont think that the ones that separate us from the general public are highlighted enough...

This post is not exactly coming out as i want it to be. I have to focus and make a clearer post later on.... sorry. Ugff... this post is all wrong!!

Okay...

go to the CHADD web site and read the policy statement on ADHD by the American Medical Association
. Furthermore be aware thatr adhd inattentive subtype is listed in the DSM-IV as a subtype of adhd.

http://www.help4adhd.org/en/treatment/guides/ama

Don't forget the surgeon general's report and assorted info from the Center for Disease Control

http://www.help4adhd.org/en/about/science


That should pretty much cover it

Thank you very much, Speedo. I have been to the CHADD site but I have not read things you have mentioned, which I will do right now.

I am in a similar situation. My mother was a psych nurse and my stepfather is a psychiatrist. They both say they would immediately know if I had ADD and yet at the same time for 20 years they've had no idea I was suicidally depressed all that time. Diagnosing family members is really nearly impossible because you have no objectivity. I feel like asking "Uh, do you even know me?" to my mom as she tells me that I have no problems with school or work or forgetfulness or doing simple chores (which I NEVER do without medication!), in fact the simpler it is the less chance there is I will do it. Unfortunately, you are going to have trouble convincing them and if you are under 18 or paying your medical their opinion does matter.

It definitely sounds like your parents are in denial. If they were to admit that you had ADHD they would be acknowledging that they as mental health professionals failed to notice it in their own child. That could cause them to feel guilty or inadequate as parents.

mickn,

Are you a minor who needs a parent to sign off on getting medication and help? ... because if you're an adult, I say skip trying to persuade dad ... if he's not open to it at this point, what makes you think he'll be open to it later? ... Your dad is totally out of touch with the basic consensus in the field .... It would take him 5 minutes of google research and a few phone calls to get this information ....what makes you think you can change that? ...

I guess my comments should come with an ADVISORY WARNING: I (Tone) suffer multiple brain ailments in addition to adhd ... these ailments occurred when trying to explain sensitive, personal topics to family members who had not a wit of desire to listen and learn.

Good luck.

Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder Symptoms and Child Maltreatment: A Population-Based Study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18619612)

RESULTS: Inattentive type, by criteria of Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders Fourth Edition, was significantly associated with the likelihood of supervision neglect (odds ratio [OR]: 1.6; 95% confidence interval [CI]: 1.2-2.2), physical neglect (OR: 2.1; 95% CI: 1.4-3.1), physical abuse (OR: 1.6; 95% CI: 1.1-2.3), and contact sexual abuse (OR: 2.6; 95% CI: 1.5-4.5).

Health care providers should be alert to the potential for child maltreatment among children with ADHD symptoms, especially those with inattentive symptoms.

Family-based association analysis of a statistically derived quantitative traits for ADHD reveal an association in DRD4 with inattentive symptoms in ADHD individuals. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17579349)

Subsequent family-based association test-principal components (FBAT-PC) analyses using inattentive symptoms only also had significant associations. SNPs in the promoter region of DRD4 are associated with the phenotypes generated from ADHD symptoms.

ADHD-PI is only "rare" if you consider that definition to mean "harder to detect/notice to the naked eye and/or casual observer".

Less noticable doesn't equal "rare."

What makes it more difficult to notice is that "true" Inattentive type only has been called a "wastebasket" due to the myriad of symptoms that could also be attributed to other disorders ( instead of ADHD).

If you get a chance, the 40 page Barkley article from 2000, available @

www.schwablearning.org does a good job of highlighting the issue.

He also gives an excellent overview for the presence of a "qualitatively different disorder," i.e., Sluggish Cognitive Tempo.

You can also find a number of other quality references as well.

Just remember that ADD went out the window 14 years ago with the advent of the DSM-IV.

When the DSM-V comes out in the next few years, look for Inattentive type ot be replaced by something along the lines of a Working Memory problem.

Hyeractivity-Impulsivity should be replaced by something like Disinhibition Disorder or Behavioral Disinhibition.

At some point, I fully expect Dr Barkely and colleagues will finally be able to demonstrate the validity of SCT as a separate disorder.

I don't have any data on the question, but I'm comfortable with my overall response, as I see a distinct difference between "rare" and "less recognizable."

Excellent question though, glad you raised it.


tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

When the DSM-V comes out in the next few years, look for Inattentive type ot be replaced by something along the lines of a Working Memory problem.

Hyeractivity-Impulsivity should be replaced by something like Disinhibition Disorder or Behavioral Disinhibition.

Oh good more confusion brought to us by medical science -

Irony is truly the dessert of life

We are a group of people with a supposedly poor working memory deficit so what does medical science do for this = They keep changing the darn name of our condition!!!!!

Yeah that is using the old noodle there, we all need to be normal like they are . . . .{They have more white matter or is that gray matter hmmmm does it matter? - I am not crazy the world is}

Because the brains in medical science keep changing the name of our condition pretty soon none of us will remember what we have. . . . . {I think that is the goal - Scientology must be behind this:p}

If we have to discuss our "condition" we will be saying things like "I have that um er you know that memory thing I can't remember the name of. . .or. . . . . . .the new diagnostic criteria if we can remember the name of our condition then we probably don't have said condition. . .. I can see it now :rolleyes:


How about just calling it CRSS - Can't remember sh** syndrome - it would at least be a consistent and descriptive label I could remember - maybe!

Oh good more confusion brought to us by medical science -

We are a group of people with a supposedly poor working memory deficit so what does medical science do for this = They keep changing the darn name of our condition!!!!!




I thought you said you were a hyperactive? :D

May I assume you've read Dr. Amen's writings on the subject? If not, check out his website, to start.

Study into verbal memory versus verbal IQ in ADHD (http://http://www.drthomasebrown.com/pdfs/VerbalMemoryArticle.pdf)

On the sixth page down, in the paragraph immediately above the heading 'Regression Effects' it is stated that there was no significant difference in the results between the three subtypes. I would show him that study and highlight that line if I were you. Just over half of the subjects in this study had the inattentive subtype, and the difference between the control group and them was significant. To me this is very strong evidence.

The question could be insulting in itself. Why do you waste time asking it? Of course it exists.

Don't get mad; I know it exists because I have it. However, I am faced with a parent who happens to be a psychiatrist that thinks ADD without hyperactivity is, at best, very rare. He is surprisingly out of touch regarding recent (past 10-15 years or so) developments in this area (frankly, I think he doesn't want to face the possibility that he missed it while I was growing up). I have seen much in this forum and elsewhere about the scientific evidence of ADHD itself, but I have been unable to find references to scientific evidence that it is possible to have ADD without hyperactivity. Can anyone point me in such a direction? I have read most of the sticky on scientific evidence in this forum and didn't see anything specifically on this (though I could easily have missed it).

Thanks in advance for any help!

MovingShadow, he is looking for scientific studies to back him up because his parents are skeptics. He meant no insult.

One possible source for information is The National Resource Center on AD/HD:
Funded through a cooperative agreement with the Centers for Disease Control, this is extremely useful as a central place to start your education on ADHD. The information given is up to date and very reliable. You can ask questions and someone will get back to you.I tested the email service with a fairly technical diagnosis question and they came back with a good solid accurate answer.

The main address is http://www.help4adhd.org/

The address for inquiries is:
http://www.help4adhd.org/info_request.cfm
If you try it, let me know how it worked out.

ADHD of any type belongs to a class of disabilities considered to be invisible disorders. You cannot see it with your eyes and so many will doubt and criticize. About all you can do is forgive them because they do not know that they are doing. The best defense it to study and do know what *you* are doing. Knowledge is the key. All else follows.


It is not what we don't know that is the problem, it is what we know that is not true.


Good luck

Dizfriz

Despite my best efforts to educate her,my own mother, who is also a medical professional, vehemently denies that I have adhd and has always told me that I need to "knuckle down" "stop being lazy" "stop making excuses"...things like that. She will never think differently because this is something she missed as I was growing up and she will never admit that. It would shine a bright light on the way she dealt with me growing up and she could not deal with admitting any past failures. It's possible that your Dad won't think any differently even if you provide good documentation to him, so be prepared for that. But, maybe you can show him something that will enlighten him and sway his thinking. Good luck!

show them how many people are registered at this website.

Members: 26,323

........we're not here for roll play.

I'm sure they are welcome to ask..

98thpercentile, Abani, abdulla, ADDamEff, ADDBecky, ADDesigner, adfasdfaewrqwer, adhdogwalker, AgriDulce, akd1020, Alexis, amypaige, amythyst, AncientSun, andecala, andyum, angelamarie701, apollonian, Araglin, Aratsu, aromal, ashtonns_mom, Asteri00, auntchris, aybagum, babelsgp, bassakwards, Batman55, bikerchickie, Billydeel, blueroo, Bluerose, blueyeyore, Bobbwilliams, BogWarrior, Boss Dog, BrainStatic, breckgirl, bubbles34, Bugalug, bxny, Can'tregister, Captain Sanity, cashmere, CaucusRace, chaidude37, chartreuse, chowmix, clare85, cnh02, cohdee, Colin, colinga, Condorman, CptRambo, crazy_no_more, cubed, CultOfByron, curseandablessi, cwonderig, D.B. Cooper, d2k1, Dane, Danuts, DarcyFitz, DaveHawk, DeloresMelon, DesertDave, Detached, dinesh111, Dizfriz, djdragon7k, DominoPhreak, dotan, DotwithADD, Driver, DTownDave22, DunnWorrE, DynamiteBritany, ech5, El Cid, element, expattw, faith_8, fanofmozarts2, Five, FNCrazy, fogleghorn, four_a2002, francis_r, frankfarter, freeindeed, funkymonkcp, Fuse, Genius, gogogo, goldenlover1, goobergo, greatdanish, GuardianAngel, happyaddgirl, harrywilliams, harwas, heatman, HelenF, hellosuresh123, Higgy, hillzy, hollyduck, hollywood, hoosier87, hoosiergirl, IAmMe, Ian, Ifeelpretty, ILADHD, Imnapl, INaBOX, inmostleaf, iphone24, j.t.90, Jade, jamalX, jayinhk, Jeff5k60, jfd19, jhensy, JimmyDee, jkshaal, jmchamp, joebanks, joey, JollyBadger, JR1973, Juliak, junetown, junxu123, justcallmedorie, jwd1, jxxx, Kastor, Katja, KFran, kilted_scotsman, kldm229wbs, Kostics, Koz4k, KurtG85, kwalk, Lackadaisical, Lady Lark, lahackett, livinginchaos, lizbeth, lostranslation, Lrryr, ltb88, luccy, Lunacie, Mackenzie, mADD mike, Mantis, marisalbd, Mary, marytza, MATHIEU, mccinny, MECMR, MED GENIUS, merlin8015, michigansucks5, Michiko74, mickn66, Mickusa, micmckit, mijahe, Mincan, minn306, miss ellie, Missgoldie, MissMadness, mjjnyc, MMangia, mom2t&t, moo4dougie, Mscreek, murphy40, MuseBell, mw26, mygreycard, Naetha1, nater, ndnbutterfly, netsavy006, NewGuy, NickL30, nilsn, NoReally, nrd110, NuclearMind, nyanko, olliesmom, ozchris, paltiel, pandaman, pedalpounder, pembroke, penguin, peter1900, Phlys, planetdave, poe171717, POOHBEAR, Pray4Him, Project 2501, prtsimmons, Prusilusken, qhcowgirl, qinkin, QueensU_girl, r2d2, rabbit8, ramsamsam, Ravenna, Rbsann, redfishoil, relaycharger, Retromancer, roly poly, Rosellini, sara4, sarek, sarey, Schylla33, Seer-X, selby, sgtbilldoor, Shakey, shilow, sidetraked, sillynilly, smik2, snailsnbottles, snoopy, spacedout, speedo, Spongedaddy, SRabbit, sspl01, Star-IV, Stavros, strange&unusual, sublyp, summersoff, supadave3, SuperChan, SuzzanneX, tam7, Tara, tazoz, Technojunkie, teddyf, Think, thomson456, tiddletaddle, Tilly, timh, timmtc, tkdan, tnina, ToneTone, toosparked, TransitnSuccess, tribalsushi, True North, tvaneka, Twerp, TygerSan, Uneek1, upperMedicated, ustilago, Veronica Cobb, Vinton, viva_le_fun, watts, whitecrow, whitedaikan, whoami, wifeandmom, wifeof, WilliamMichael, willzzz, Wonder45, xav, xraylady33, xstarchildx, Yasha, Zoie, ZombieReagan, ~boots~

Despite my best efforts to educate her,my own mother, who is also a medical professional, vehemently denies that I have adhd and has always told me that I need to "knuckle down" "stop being lazy" "stop making excuses"...things like that. She will never think differently because this is something she missed as I was growing up and she will never admit that. It would shine a bright light on the way she dealt with me growing up and she could not deal with admitting any past failures.


Your Mother and my Mother should get together and go shopping!:D

Even my ADD mom is starting to doubt its existance due to things she hears about 'the latest research' and whatnot. I swear, she seems to believe everything on tv a scientist/doctor says x_x She thinks I'm just lazy, too. While I'll admit that I am lazy, I just can't help everything else (like my very little motivation.)

It definitely sounds like your parents are in denial. If they were to admit that you had ADHD they would be acknowledging that they as mental health professionals failed to notice it in their own child. That could cause them to feel guilty or inadequate as parents.

That could be it.

On the other hand they might just want some scientific evidence of ADD. They might genuinely not believe in it, which is fine IMO.

I believe in ADD, I know I have it.

But...I would love some cold hard scientific evidence that shows it's an actual physical disorder. (brain scans etc.) I've seen the brain scans done on an ADDer vs. a non-ADDer but that's not really evidence IMO, the ADDer could have just been not focusing on the test which would make that result inaccurate.

I know that it's a collection of symptoms but it has to be more than that, right?

Maybe in time as technology improves we'll see more hard scientific evidence that shows there's acually something different in the way our brains work. I've seen a few studies on this sort of thing but they didn't seem too reliable.


I believe in ADD, I know I have it. So don't jump down my throat because of this post.


As far as I know there's no research that proves exactly what ADD is (physically). There's still lots of unknowns about how the brain works. If someone could post a definitive study or research I'd like to check it out - so post a link if you can.

The DSM IV TR symptoms are based on research

They ARE proof

While they're in need of some adjustments within the DSM-V,

They're empirically (research) based

Third party managed care insurnce companies DON'T pay for "Fake" conditions

More over, the research study entitled " International Consensus 2002 "

Is THE number # 1 research study on the existence of ADHD as a "real " disorder

(It doesn't read ONLY ADHD-C or H-I Types)

It's available at

www.russellbarkley.org

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

How about just calling it CRSS - Can't remember sh** syndrome - it would at least be a consistent and descriptive label I could remember - maybe!

Off topic but you made me LOL....I have a pair of socks that says "I suffer from CRAFT - Cant Remember A F***ing Thing" :D

The DSM IV TR symptoms are based on research

They ARE proof

While they're in need of some adjustments within the DSM-V,

They're empirically (research) based

Third party managed care insurnce companies DON'T pay for "Fake" conditions

More over, the research study entitled " International Consensus 2002 "

Is THE number # 1 research study on the existence of ADHD as a "real " disorder

(It doesn't read ONLY ADHD-C or H-I Types)

It's available at

www.russellbarkley.org (http://www.russellbarkley.org)

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

Thanks for the link.

Again, I'm not doubting ADHD's existence.

I'm just wondering if there's anything out there that shows the actual 'mechanism of action' of ADD. Not the symptoms but the exact physical 'thing' in ADDers brains that causes the symptoms. Or is it a collection of 'things'? or do we not know yet?

I've heard it's got something to do with dopamine. I've heard its got something to do with receptor pathways. Perhaps its many things? I don't know.

I've tried to explain what I mean as best I can. I'm not talking about DSM officialism or government recognition that ADD is a disorder. I already know it's a valid disorder - I'd just like to know how it 'works'.

Excellent question

There well might be

The first glucose brain scan study able to show a "diminished metabolic capacity" was :

Zametkin,et.al.,1990

Zametkin,et.al.,1990 is still considered a landmark study,even though Zametkin, 1991 was unable to replicate those data

However, Zametkin, 1993 did manage to replicate the action on a group of adolescent females

Point being it remains a landmark study because of that

While I'm not a huge fan of Wikipedia, it has it's place

If you go to their ADHD link and look at the history of the disorder, they'll have a color pic of the PET scan

I don't know if he took into account ADHD types or not

I do know the groups were composed of :

1) Adults w/o ADHD

2) Adults with ADHD, who'd never been on meds before

You might also want to look at some of Jay Giedd's earlier work on ADHD


Hope that helps

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)


PS

I think you'll like Giedd

Hope so anyway

meade that is so funny cause I refer to my add inattentive moments to a disease called CRS too!!

katts

I have seen much in this forum and elsewhere about the scientific evidence of ADHD itself, but I have been unable to find references to scientific evidence that it is possible to have ADD without hyperactivity.
It is possible to have "primarily inattentive AD/HD" according to current definitions. Then in trials of medication you will get results for an inattentive group along with a larger combined-type group. Note: these studies are generally with children; it's not clear if you are a child or an adult.
Often the results for inattentives are less impressive than combined types and information on the nature of the condition and on treatment is not as good as for combined type.

Where does the doctor end and the parent begin? Even if you were to present a solid arguement for the validity of inattentive ADHD, there is a much bigger critic that may not listen to science. Despite the fact that they are members of that community.

I don't want to discourage you from bringing articles, facts, hey people to your parent. But be prepared that it may not be enough to bring them around. Parents are funny creatures and sometimes what they are objecting to has little to do with you and everything to do with them.

Again, I hope I'm wrong and really all they needed was scientific research to change their minds.

;) Ummm, what was the question?

this might be because every college kid who cant pay attention in his boring classes is diagnosed adhd

then they say why do people take their meds everyday , you shouldnt be so dependent on them