Okay, I know the hunter/farmer/evolutionary theories of ADD are not airtight... but I was thinkin...

Okay... if ADD people are meant to be hunters / soldiers / fighters / men and women of action, from an evolutionary standpoint, then what if the bullying that happened to so many of us as children and so many of our children today was SUPPOSED to happen? As mother Nature's way of "training" us ADD people to be tough, know how to be assertive, fighters, survivors? Possibly as well, to help "weed out" those unworthy to be the group's hunters and soldiers?

This implies more a hunters/farmers working together in the same tribe sort of idea... but that idea as well has appeal to me to explore...

According to this theory... bullying would therefore be inevitable. And a good thing in many ways of looking at it. But if this theory is true, is there anything we can do to civilize the natural "bullying instinct" out of humanity?

Or even more disturbing... if it has an evolutionary purpose... should we run with it? ENCOURAGE IT? If my son is meant to be a "soldier ant" in the hive of today's society, obviously I don't want him to go through pain and suffering, but how else can he learn to master them? I don't want him to have to fight... but how better can he learn to by doing?

Maybe I don't want him to be a soldier ant. But have any of you ever had a life that wasn't miserable when you tried to deny your nature and be what the farmers wanted you to be?

I think bullying is instinctive. Many animals have social hierarchies, with the ones on the low end of the totem pole being treated badly. It's an instinct I'd really like the human race to overcome, though. It may have served a purpose evolutionarily (is that a word?), but I think that in our day this kind of behavior causes more harm than good. I think that our "hunter" children already have enough adversity to overcome, growing up in today's society.

If your child is at all timid and tends more towards the "victim" end of the spectrum, he may benefit from programmes designed to improve physical confidence and promote a sense of greater capability - but initially, on a one-on-one basis ... free from the spectre of bullying - which can occur in any situation with more than one person.
Yes, bullying is natural - but if you can't stop the bully, at least you can equip the victims a little better than nature has.
Boys in particular, can benefit from strong (and obviously likable) male role models.

I was tipped off by a post of Tara's about the "add hours" available to all once a month. I participated last Thursday on a forum/talk hosted by Steven Ledingham regarding mens issues.

Scouting came up a couple of times as excellent influences on boys/mens self esteem. "Outward bound" would be a natural extension of that type of modeling. We are woefully short of men who do more than spit and talk about football. Trade you one bully for three scout leaders? < g >

http://www.addcoach.com/
Look for the "add hour"

A book co-authored by Steven.
http://www.bookshare.org/web/BooksByAuthor.html?author_id=666

Father of three girls.. dang! heh jk on the dang part.. Ian.

I actually wandered into this forum looking for anything to help my parents deal with me having ADD (I'm newly diagnosed, 21 y/o), but I couldn't resist offering my two cents.

Bullying to some extent probably develops a lot of strength and character...on the other hand....children are supposed to be protected by adults. And if they aren't, then that encourages the attitude that they deserve it.

As for helping timid kids...this may sound wierd, but...I took tae kwon do in high school, and it really helped. It taught me that if someone DID start in on me phsycially, I could defend myself, and it also taught me to be more confident. I liked what the head instructor told the kids class...he always said, "I don't expect you to start any fights. But I do expect you to finish them."

Bullying is not, in and of itself, instinctive human behavior. It is, rather, a means to an end. That end is status. In hunter gatherer societies status was achieved a lot differently, and the social grouping was a lot different. The kind of bullying that goes on in our school yards doesn't occur in small tightly woven hunter gatherer bands.

Modern societal standards are damaging to ADDers. This is not some kind of natural process. This environment is completely alien to the one humans evolved in for millions of years. Many expressions of aggression in modern society are highly twisted once adaptive human behavioral responses. However living in an environment so out of whack with what our biologically wired responses are has produced a number pathological expressions of these natural responses.

Bullying does not toughen ADD children up. It psychologically scars them. Particularly if they are of the fifty percent that also suffer anxiety disorders co-morbid with the ADD. Not only did I get bullied before I hit my growth, but after sufficiently tortured I lost my temper and would severely beat my tormentors. This, in turn so frightened me, that I ended up even more screwed up. Oh, it all worked out in time, but why put a kid through that when simply feeling safe and confident in himself will accomplish just as much "toughening" without the psychological luggage?

Social darwinistic thoughts are dangerous and have been brought up and de-bunked continuously since Darwin first published. Eugenics, and the Nazi party being two fine examples of what I mean by "dangerous". You simply can't make any evolutonary assumptions involving adaptations for "modern" life. Society hasn't been around long enough for significant biological change of any kind to occur. So, the idea that any of the "status quo" is supported by natural selection is just plain bat droppings. The status quo hasn't even existed long enough to influence human biology at that level

Bullying is not the way to get through life in my opinion. I was bullied by a boy from 4th to 6th grade. He kept hitting me in my stomach right before lunch. I put up with it because teachers and principal said they could/would do nothing until they saw it happen. (He was very sneaky) only hitting me when noone else was looking. Finally in 6th grade the teacher saw him take aim and hit me in the stomach. I looked her straight in the eye and punched him back....he never hit me again and because the teacher knew he had hit me first, I did not get into trouble.

Scouts are excellent for both boys and girls....I strongly suggest it for both.

Yay Mary!!!!!

Mary, BIG SMILE!

I inherited my Granfather's Irish temper, and my father's stoic Swedish long fuse (just keep the imagery of the berserker from the old sagas in mind though). When you add in the ADD sensitivity and emotional intensity... Well, grade school isn't necessarily the most fun place to be.

I learned early that my temper was something to keep a lid on. Even when I got my licks in, I lost because I would go to the priciple's office, get the paddle, and then go home (probable get another paddle from Mom), and if I was really unlucky and my Father's unit was inport I'd get the belt when He got home. So, temper, even when it stopped annoying ****ants from messing with me only got me into more trouble. But letting kids get away with things is just as bad. So, then I would let them go so far, because If I was defending myself I wouldn't get into trouble at home. It was always worst when they made fun of my mother for being heavy. Because I couldn't walk away from that. There was no build up, no fuse burn, just instant explosion. This was when my temper began to scare me. When it would take several people to pull me off the bully, I'd squirm free, and be on the rat again using anything I could find to pummel, bash, head butt, and generally just hurt this mean awful person who could not leave me alone when I had never bothered him. Afterwards, I always felt a sense of, "Dear god! What have I done?!" There was always a sense of relief when I was sure the catalogue of injurires the bully had recieved amounted to no worse than what he had inflicted on others over the last week. Just all at once maybe. Nothing broken, nothing lost. I always resloved, that "next time" I wouldn't let them get to me because I did not want to hurt anyone. I would be miserable the rest of the day and when I got home I would go to my room and cry. I hurt. I hurt because I just wanted to be left alone. I hurt because I geniuinely felt awful for hurting a kid who deserved it it if ever a kid did! Mostly I was scared, because when I was that angry, and fighting back it wasn't just him I was after it was everyone like him before and there was so much anger. I don't even remember jumping on him. I was out of control, and when I came to myself enough to have presence of mind again I was enjoying myself and that scared me more than anything.

Anyway, in the fourth grade, I went through a string of five bullies in that pattern. The fifth bully was too big for even my considerable temper. A set back two years running. He was supposed to be a sixth grader. He finally made a tactical error. He introduced a blunt instrument into our game. Taking our baseball bat from us and hitting me across the knees, shins with it. When my friend Becky started yelling at him and telling him to go away he pushed her down. Now, it's never great to have a girl sticking up for you, but Becky was my real friend, one of a very few and she didn't do it in a protective humiliating way, she did it in a "Oh, not this jerk, AGAIN!" sort of way. Anway, protective instincts won out over self preservation. I walked right up to him and got his direct attention while he was standing over Becky making some Bully type comment or other. He heard me and turned. I guess it was pretty much what he wanted. He just stepped on my toes and planted his hand on my chest hard. I grabbed the bat on the way down and he couldn't hold on to it.

My eyes got mean and his eyes got big right around the same time. If I had actually caught him I am not sure what the consequences would have been. I think I might have had some measure of control this time though because I know I could have caught him. I was a much faster runner than him. And with a minimal lead He still got away with no more than a nasty bruise on a calf from an accurately thrown louisville slugger. :-)

Becky love that last part. "GET 'IM DAN! GET 'IM!"

The principle had some difficulty believing a known tourble maker in the school, often caught extorting lunch money and the like, and substantially bigger than any other kid in the school was remotely afraid of the quite blond haired Johnson boy. Nevertheless we both got our medicine and I got to discuss the issue with my parents or somesuch.

I wrote it down somewhere else in the forum here. I think I remembered it better in that post.

Anyway, After that, I got so scared of my temper I just got sick instead of violent. It wasn't even a question of violence either. Anytime I got really angry I got sick.

Even for an ADDer, I don't think I was all that violent as a child. I have always been a bit too empathetic to want anything to do with violence or most other conflict for that matter. There are only a couple of things worth getting bent over.

E-Boy,

You've hit in on the head again. I learned early on that I had to keep a lid on my temper. There are numerous events in my life that I am ashamed of that resulted directly from being bullied and losing control. Unfortunately, I kept a lid on it until I got home. Then I would completelyy lose it on the most innocent of all - my family.

When I finally lost it on those that tormented me, I grabbed one by the throat and slammed him against his open locker. I felt the pulse beneath my fingers and knew how easy it would be to stop it. I also saw outright fear in his eyes. Not fear, more like terror. I felt that fear in the pit of my being - and it scared me. I let him go, bruised but unharmed.

That fear I saw in him lives in me today. I swore at that time never to lash out again. Unfortunately the bullying didn't stop. I began to feel that they must be right. I tried killing myself twice - didn't even come close. (Another very long story.) Anyone who thinks bullying toughens kids up needs to have their heads examined. ADD or not there is no good that comes from bullying.

I tried the Scout thing and experienced the worst bullying in the Scouts. Be wary - any institute is only as good as the people in charge. I encourage parents to become active in the group with their children. Watch with open eyes and ears.

Yes, there is still rage that boils within the depth of my soul. It's what drives me to help prevent what happened to me from happening to others.

David

That last line of what you said David really strikes home and echoes my own sentiments completely. I am so angry inside there is just no way to describe it. And I see people doing what was done to me to others and... It needs to stop somewhere David. We get to be the adults that understand that we didn't have at their age. Oh god it's an uphill climb though. I sure do hope they're ready for me. This much anger doesn't get tired, it doesn't get discouraged or impatient and go away, it doesn't forget and move on to bigger and better things, it doesn't compromise, and it can't be bought off. This kind of anger will go away only when those who caused it and their ilk are no longer running the show.

One thing you have to understand, however, is that those people will always be running the show. They've clawed, stepped on, and humiliated their way to the top. They learned their lessons well - on us.

I've learned how to lean on it when I need strength. I lean on it when I have to take a stand when no one else will. I'm a sci-fi nut and have adopted the Ranger Motto from the series Babylon 5:
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one passes...."
I wish I could explain how or why this fits, but it does.

Keep vigilant E-Boy, it's not the loudest voice that gets heard. It's the persistant voice that does. When I have had to take a stand in my job, I'm amazed by how much respect my opinion gets, how much power is commanded by my presence at the side of one of my students.

Justice to those who tortured us may be slow in coming, but it will come - even if we aren't there to know about it.

David

Yeah, I used to want to be there to see it.... I'm not their judge though. I don't really know them anymore than they knew me. I don't really want them tortured back. I just want it understood that their perceptions, whether they be those of the shoolyard bully, or the myopic administrator, are not necessarily accurate nor are they the yardstick every other persons value should be measured by.

Well said, E-boy.

Why thank you, thou who art Krispy, and crunchy when served with milk. Tell me art thou a part of a complete breakfast?

I am a complete breakfast!

My how very nourishing of you! But art thou atkins approved?

Methinks I detect a touch of hubris in thine response mylady.

Hubris? Methinks thou givest me not enough credit.

Hark - Cornieth this getteth. Lo - I must now leaveth my worketh and go hometh. Haveth a nice dayth.

Davidth

LOLeth

Hubris doth be an emotional state mylady, and the merchants of E-boynia don't deal in emotional credit. There be sharks galore in those waters mylady.

So, doth thou haveth fruits and nuts and whole grain goodness in thy bounty, or art thou just a flake?

Thine own self is full of fruits and nuts, is it not? ;)

"Above all else to thine own self be true" If the bard can be Granlola cereal, so can I! :-p

You know Krisp, I really like you. :-) Come to think of it, I don't know of anyone on these boards I don't like... Scary!

You, however, I am going to work on. You have potential to harness that creative protective energy of yours in a quick on your feet way for the good of the downtrodden, including yourself. Was it you that had the problem with the Evil professor, or have I got my wires crossed again? Maybe you don't need your potential in that respect realized... :-) Maybe you are already out giving evil doers the wedgie of justice in the name of truth, an even break, and the fact that the evil bastidges HAD IT COMIN' ANYWAY AND YOU WUZ JUST THE GAL TA GIVE IT TO 'EM BUT GOOD! ;-)

Interesting insight there ... I've been thinking about a new career that might give me a chance to help the downtrodden (and give the downtrodders the proverbial wedgie of justice). (That should probably become its own thread in Peer Coaching.) I personally did not have the evil professor, but I might have made a few .... um .... remarks about him. :nono:

Thanks for the compliment, BTW. I like you too!

ewww - yuck things are getting mushy. Is someone going to start playing the violin or something?

Honestly - Doesn't it strike you as odd that ADDers seem to want to always want to help the downtrodden and stick it to the downtrodders? I know I do. My downtroddden are the At-Risk kids in my school. I'm not sure, however, who needs sticking to - obviously the bullies, but sometimes there's a whole number of others that need it too.

Here's to wedgie of justice - may it be applied to all that deserve it!

David

I try to do my good deeds for others in the form of observations, and advice. Getting directly involved in confrontations when I don't know all the details, I have discovered, is entirely too easy with friends, and entirely too confusing for an ADDer even when you do have some vague idea of the facts. It's better when you know the environment really well, and you can lay out the facts of life to them, after the fact and let them act on good information on their own. You aren't a busy body this way, if they are being unfairly treated you are helping them out, and if they are not being unfairly treated you aren't interceding in anyway that could be percieved as taking up for them when they are in the wrong. You are simply telling them what the facts are so they can make more intelligent decisions.

I have found in the Navy this works particularly well. Reason being, that much of the senior leadership is actually ignorant of the very regs they are supposed to be enforcing and serving as the example of. Often times even when they are not ignorant they will depend on the ignorance of junior personnel to get things done. In other words they will threaten them with things they are not allowed to do to them, to get things done, or they will actually levy illegal punishments, and get away with it because the young guys and gals are not aware they are illegal.

So, these are the sorts of things I would hold "training" on. Boy you would be suprised at the sorts of results that got! Fortunately for me, I was not the only enterprising young petty officer that felt this way, or they might have ended up figuring out who was spoiling their party (there is mandatory annual training on this stuff anyway, but somehow or other it seems to happen without happening...?)

Anyway, I developed kind of a reputation wandering around the ship off shift. It's a big ship, and I was doing Enlisted surface warfare lectures for combat systems. I was conducting duty section training on advanced damage control techniques, and also doing this for non-duty section members both in and outside of my division so they could get their pre-requisites done for surface warfare quals. I was doing a lot of budget analysis for sailors who wanted to make their money go further, or who were having financial difficulties... Between all of this, and the fact that for some reason, maybe my dopey happy go lucky looking face, or the fact that I am about the least intimidating person you will ever meet, people (mostly junior sailors of either gender) kept approaching me with their problems. Most of these folks were people I'd never even met.

In a way, under the circumstances I was in at the time, it was the best thing that could have happened to me. Listening to other people's problems was a distraction from my own. Most of them were familiar ground. Places I'd been, so to speak. Easy fixes, or just information requests that I could answer on the spot. A few were kids with problems just like me. I tried to help them out with the resources available.

Originally posted by pershingd
ewww - yuck things are getting mushy. Is someone going to start playing the violin or something?

Hey, if people can't get together in a thread about bullying, where can they? Stop bugging them. :D

Originally posted by pershingd
Here's to wedgie of justice - may it be applied to all that deserve it!

David

Now THERE'S something I can drink to! I'll remember that one! :bowl: :bowl: :bowl:

It's certainly not a phrase you'll hear just anywhere. :-)

When I say evil doers and then say wedgie though, I always picture Dubya giving someone a wedgie. HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!

Dave,

I try to be careful of who I label an evil doer these days. Lots of folks I have been really angry with have turned out simply to have problems of their own that are just as overwhelming, or more so than mine...

However, some folks are just plain mean. Being mean isn't a criminal offense. Just stand by to hear about it if I see it is all. ;-)


DOWN WITH THE POLITICALLY CORRECT! THINK WHAT YOU WANT, SAY WHAT YOU FEEL! It's okay to be nice if you want to be though. :-)

Do they wear underwear? I can just picture Osama being the underwear guru for all radical muslims.

David

Originally posted by E-boy
It's certainly not a phrase you'll hear just anywhere. :-)

When I say evil doers and then say wedgie though, I always picture Dubya giving someone a wedgie. HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!

Funny that. If I think of "Wedgies of Justice" it seems to me Dubya would be more likely to be on the receiving than the giving end... :D :D :D

The thought of Dubya getting a Wedgie of Justice makes me very happy. :D

Yeah, But he's already such a tight *** I don't think even silk is gonna get up there, if you know what I'm saying... Either that or that perpetual grimmace is because he got way too many wedgies growing up already, which means he deserves our pity, if not respect. ;-)

Hi Wayward,

Couldn't help but jump into this one because I had a horrible childhood in school. As a result I have NO desire whatsoever to be a fighter or hunter. As a result all I got was an unhealthy hatred and anger deep inside that I pray every day God will heal me from. That is slowly happening, but the pain from the past and all the horrible memories are very hard to overcome. I feel the theory is the opposite, that the linear thinking people are the hunters and the fighters and we are sometimes victimized by them when they sense weakness or something "different" then the norm. I may be totally wrong and totally off-base here but I am not speaking on a scientific level, just a human one and from my own personal experiences. I completely appreciate what you had to say and just wanted to give you my take on it.
Thanks for another good post. Dee

I'm with you on that point Dee! I, too, have no desire to be hunter or fighter. Just keep praying every day and put as much as possible behind you.

David

It could easily be either Dave and Dee. Keep in mind that the present "ideal" of human society is NOT the norm or even a close approach to it. One does not have to be a believer in evolution to know that hunter gathering was the norm until about six thousand years ago. It is just not normal for human beings to live in such dense population groupings. People shake their heads and talk about how selfish humanity is because we foul the planet and can't look to the future. Actually we can look to the future just fine, what we cannot effectively do at the moment is work together effectively in groups larger than a hunter gatherer tribe (which for the record is between 150 and 200 people on average depending on the resource base available it varies considerably, but this is the mean average. Oddly the average modern human in his circle of workmates, relatives, friends and aquaintances knows between 150 and 200 people... Coincidence?). Oh sure our governments work, sort of. We organize some large scale projects and accomplish them, but remember the pollution, the wars, the murder, etc...? Hunter gatherer's had warfare, occasionally. They had murder... In some cases in some tribes a lot more than occasionally, but that's a cultural extreme, and in general great pains are taken to avoid blood shed, just as in most other animals ( new guinea highlanders who meet a stranger in their traditional range will begin reciting their genaeology to each other. finding a single ancestor in common justifies not attempting to kill each other over a territorial dispute. Territory is of great importance to hunter gatherers simply because it takes a great deal of land to feed a band of them, outsiders are a very real threat.). So, the human brain is not a general purpose, infinitely plastic computer as the BF Skinner acolytes would have you believe. We are products of the environment we came from and a mere six millenia is a drop in the proverbial bucket. Not enough time to bat a lash in the evolutionary scheme of things, but more than enough time for culture and innovation to change the very face of the planet and the nature of the way we live to the point that our social adaptiveness is pushed to it's very limit. Disorders like OCD, GAD, other anxiety disorders, ADD, and some others are genetically based. All of them I have mentioned occur in AT LEAST 2-3 % of the population with the latest figures on ADD going between 6 and 10%. Population genetics tells us two things the doctors don't seem to know, not being anthropology or genetics students. 1). Deleterious genes do not propogate over time. They are winnowed out, even if the disadvatage they produce is miniscule they disappear relatively quickly (a good example of this was a calculation that showed that had there been a birth mortality difference between modern humans and neandertals of as little as .03% they would have been driven to extinction by population pressure alone within 1000 years. They persisted side by side with us for 30,000). So, you can see that miniscule differences in reproductive success add up fast. One of the findings that the population geneticist came up with was this. BY DEFINITION, ANY GENETICALLY ROOTED DISORDER THAT OCCURS IN TWO PERCENT OR MORE OF A POPULATION CANNOT BE A DISORDER. If it occurs in two percent or more of a population, it's propogating. Disorders don't propogate. Not even in "Soft" human society. Remember six millenia is a drop in the bucket, it's not enough time to have that kind of impact. It is enough time to radically change the environment though. So, a person with a genetic gifting of a particularly sensitive fight or flight response might find themselves, in this brave new world, with a real problem rather than a potentially life saving adaptation. The same, of course, goes for ADHD. In other words, the fact that we are sensitive, and get beat down when we are small and weak, and consequently feel that way much of our lives, even me and I am 6'3" tall and when I am at my normal fit weight and not over doing the runs about 230 or so. It might turn out very differently in a tight gnit tribal unit where our traits are highly valued and not ridiculed.

None of us, was alive back then. It is fairly clear that as adults we do have, in general good intuition, a tendency towards those anxiety disorders (that are really no more than having hair trigger fight or flight responses. Score that as a bonus in the wild.). We also, quite the opposite of our behind the developmental curve youthful selves have cought up as adults and tend to have Better than average body awareness, balance, and response times. The source for that last is Lynn Weiss PHD. These are not the attributes of the milktoast stay at home. They are the attributes of a survivor. I don't think being a survivor necessitates any place for bullying. I have no doubt there have always been some form of bullies in human kind though. There is no necessity to identify people with that need to subjugate with either non-ADDer or ADDer. I think they have their own issues, and I think you can find them anywhere in any group.

Fascinating points, E-boy. In one of my bio/psych classes, we talked about dyslexia in this light, too. It's a difference in wiring that, until recently, would not have been a disadvantage at all. Now, of course, it's a huge source of frustration for those who have to deal with it.

I can't decide how I would have fared in the hunter/gatherer days. I wasn't very healthy as a child, so I might have been "selected" out early on. I don't have the brawn to be a hunter, but I've always been a quick study. I think I might have made a good storyteller, medicine woman, and/or strategist. ;)

Thanks E-Boy. As always I found your post to be most interesting and informative. I agree with Krisp too about the difference in wiring. What may have been considered a gift in past years is now being looked at as a disadvantage. In my working environment I am with a smaller group of people. From my experience with larger and smaller groups I find that in working with a smaller group there can actually be "more" hostility. The larger the group, the more chance of finding acceptance with others when there are some that do not accept you. In a smaller group there can be more intense competition and resentment. If one person is ostrasized by another, the group tends to follow the ostrasizer so they themselves will not be rejected. Fortunately I am able to get along with the small group of people I work with but I always have to watch the minefield because they are a feisty bunch. I would say I am more of a peacemaker in the group. I prefer not to be the hunted.

There are lots of "disorder" labels out there that are perfectly normal. "lactose intolerance" for example is a normal condition in adult mammals. It's part of weaning. The only mammals on planet earth this is different for is a mere 20% of the human population who carry a mutation in one gene that allows them to digest milk into adulthood. A mutation that occured in pastoral peoples in western europe first, but through gene flow has done a bit of traveling since.

Krisp, we have talked about Dyslexia here in that light before. Reading and writing are inventions. Rare ones at that. Only ever independently invented twice ever in the entire course of human civilization (the rest of the seemingly huge diversity of writing systems are due to a combination of idea diffusion, or direct copying). Reading and writing are simply not natural human activities and it is not at all suprising that some people would find them exceptionally difficult with particular neurological architectures. It is overcomeable, but just as with ADD, a large amount of near non-existent flexibility in the current educational frame work of society is necessary. Labels and intolerance is what we get instead. I am sorry, but human beings are simply too highly variable an organism to be pidgeon holed that neatly and filed away somewhere out of the way on the margins of society, and that is exactly where the "different" like us will end up, if we don't support each other. Society won't give us our due. They surely won't hand us the self esteem and sense of value we deserve to have as much as anyone else. They won't bend and twist and mutate in ways that open slots that allow us to utilize our strengths just as they presently do for more linear thinkers and then pat us on the back for it. Nor will they put themselves in a position to get a taste of their own medicine. No, if we want understanding, and change we are going to have to prove them wrong, by simply showing them we are not defective.

The only way that is possible Krisp, is if we support, and self actualize each other. There are niches, even in this inflexible society for creative free spirited, sensitive, intuitive, ADD types like us. Good fits. We simply have to identify our strengths and passions. Learn to use them. Learn how to cope effectively when we must, and most importantly, learn to know, and I mean really KNOW that we are fine just as we are. Not disabled, not "DIFFERENTLY ABLED" or any of that PC BULL**** VEGPAP, AND CERTAINLY NOT CRIPPLED. WE ARE DIVERGENT THINKING, PROBLEM SOLVING, EMPATHETIC, CREATIVE, INVENTIVE, ENERGETIC, AND ECLECTIC PEOPLE AND WE HAVE A GREAT DEAL TO CONTRIBUTE IN A GREAT MANY AREAS. We just have to get past the damage. Davinci, clearly had no problems identifying his gifts and where and how to use them to problem solve and find his niche. However, his society, while not that of a hunter gatherer, was certainly more ADD friendly than this one. Edison found his niche but his finding was far more painful and might not have occured at all if not for the faith and patience of a mother with the utmost confidence in the intelligence, virtue, and worth of her son. Einstein, even closer to the modern era, was on his own. Yet he found his niche. Now I am certainly no Einstein, or Edison, or Davinci. But then, I'm not out to change the world either. Only live in it and support my family. Surely, we are all more than gifted enough to manage that, or something similar? (Oh, and by gifted I do not refer to any intellectual context, but rather to our uniquely different perspectives, outlooks, and strengths.) I'll worry about changing the world, if and when I can manage to get my kids through college. :-)

Krisp,

Cultures are mutlivaried, of course, but many of the key features of variance between male and female neuroanatomy come from, or it is theorized that they come from certain labor divisions that seem to be found as repeating themes in hunter gatherer tribes.

Because of certain stark differences in human reproductive anatomy, and the roles incurred by the possessors of said anatomy as a consequence, males generally did most of the hunting. This is where I find it gets a bit humorous though. Heh, heh, heh.... They were unsuccessful more often than successfull. :-) Human diet consisted primarily (in most areas, an obvious exception being the innuit who subsist largely on whale blubber and fish, with some berries) of plant materials (such as tubers, fruits, nuts, and berries to the tune of two thirds of the diet. Oh, don't let me forget the wild grains and cereals!). The remaining third of the diet was meat. The vast majority of this meat was fish and poultry though. Very little was red meat, which would be brought in when a kill was actually made.

Women, children and the elderly, provided the vast majority of the food, in the form of the gathered plant material, much of the fish, and a good portion of the fowl. This is one of the reasons for the ever famous jokes about men never asking for directions. Aside from the fact that losing face is a status issue (which is a discussion for another day) Men who would often chase wounded animals for days (and in some parts of africa where traditional hunts are still practiced still do) would be hard pressed indeed to keep a running map of location while chasing moving prey. Instead they navigated by landmarks. Women on the other hand needed much more precise navigation for the purpose of locating specific resources on a seasonal basis year after year. They needed to memorize precise three dimensional spatial maps of the entirety of the territory they subsisted off of.

Hence women really do tend to have a better inherent sense of direction, at least in familiar territory, for the simple reason that their brains naturally map it. Men naturally tend to navigate by landmarks. Even celestial navigation is just an extension of this.

This isn't something I just made up. It's nuerological reality. There is quite a bit of overlap though. There are men who are capable of great feats of spatial navigation and women who don't do well at it, and use land marks instead.

Incidentally, your hazarding a guess about being a story teller, shaman, medicine woman etc... Was probably dead on the mark. Women also have, on average (like I said, lots of overlap, these are nuerological tendencies) substantially better communication skills. They occupied the role of tribal educators as well. The elderly, who have been so marginalized today, were literally the most venerated of all. For they were the storehouses of accumlated knowledge and lore.

The role of women in human natural history is both pivotal and fascinating. Humanity as we know it could not exist had it not been for fundamental changes in female reproductive anotomy.

Sorry, Anthropology is my passion. Natural history in general is wicked cool, evolutionary psychology is a current pet, and Evolutionary Biology is probably one of the major lenses I look at things through in life. Not the only one, but surely a favorite.

Fascinating! I love all branches of biology, but haven't really sunk my teeth into anthropology as much .... yet. :D

I agree that we need to support each other and try to find our niches. It seems that society is getting more and more hostile toward those of us who aren't wired the "right" way. It's tough to change the world when you're struggling so hard to meet its demands.... so any true change is going to take awhile. (The temptation to run off and form an ADD commune is getting stronger and stronger.... ;) )

I get a little into my passions sometimes. Right now I am trying to relocate a book called "A Natural History of The Senses". It is written in such elegant prose, and the woman who wrote it has a rare gift for combining the elements of aesthetics and fact. She manages to treat the subject with a substantial amount of scientific rigor and at the same time it reads as though it has the spirit of poetry. Truly a talented writer with a passion for her subject matter and her name completely escapes me.

But hey, we are supposed to get into our passions!
I wonder if that means I'm allowed to pursue trying get the swedish bikini team to come to my next barbicue? Only if I want to be the pig roasting on the spit, I'm betting. :-) Last I checked she was half certain she was going to dump me though, so who knows if I will even be at my next barbicue.

Ah, they're probably all vegetarians anyway. ;)

"ALL RIGHT E-BOY! YOU ARE GOING TO GO IN THERE AND SHOW THEM ALL WHO'S BOSS!"

"I am?"

"YES, YOU ARE, BY GAWD! WHAT ARE YOU ANYWAY?! A MAN OR A MOUSE?!!!!!"


"I like cheese"

"DOH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! JUST GET OUT OF MY FACE MR.!"

Bullying is a well known symptom of a variety of genetic defects such as ODD, and CD, just to mention a few. It is associated with hormonal disorder which in males, besides from the behavioral and intellectual deficiencies, typically also cause abnormal physiologic growth: That is why the so called bullies are typically, in plane english "big lads".

So in fact it is not quite fair to refer to these individuals as "bullies"; hence rethorically making them out to be somehow 'evil'. They are individuals who need medical help. Not monsters hwo should be lynched.

What CAN and SHOULD be done is NOT having a lynchmob, but in stead to HELP THE BULLY WITH HIS CONDITION. That is: to get him in psychiatric treatment so he can get the medication he needs. Bullying is a physiological desease, like eg. asthma or diabetes. And it can be treated in similar ways.

Teachers and parents should be aware that talk and counceling won't help improving the bully's behavior. And likewise the other children should be made to understand that their big "friend" is not actually 'evil' as such. He just has an illness which means that he can't socialize like normal people.

I can agree with some points that you made. First, yes there is evidence that shows that bullying is the result of biological processes. Second, yes - kids that are bullies need to be recognized as having such problems.

What I have trouble with is your statement that bullies should be regarded as "big friends". As someone who has been in the cross hairs of a bully's attention (not to mention the sights of the .38 he was holding to my head) I find that concept absurd. How are children going to learn proper behavior when nobody is expecting proper behavior from them. Yes, counseling is needed - not just for the child, but for the entire child's family from where that kind of behavior was first tolerated and/or encouraged.

I really don't mean to sound so harsh - I teach in a Junior high and have seen plenty of "hardcore" bullies. Most of them have been, as you say, victims of the biological roll of the die. But when that is tied with difficulties of school and poor home environment, you've got a ticking time bomb on your hands.

If talk and counseling will not help, what do you suggest we do? Allow them to continue to terrorize their peers? I think the only evil act that can be done here is to turn away and do nothing. Just research the events at Columbine High School in Colorado, USA.

Respectfully,
PershingD

Well, I'll agree with Scouting as a good thing. One of our scout masters was a nasty mean dude in his youth (you could tell) but he loved camping and really found a good place in life doing that.

I never fought with anybody ever as a child except maybe one wrestling session with my "evil" brother who ran my life as a bully extraordinaire. It's amazing I don't have more anger built up than I do. Or maybe I do and that's my real problem.

I recall a bully in Junior High, I think who would punch people in the middle of class and get away with it. I can sympathize with them, and my brother. I used to hang with a guy in High School who turned up later to have raped a three year old & left her for dead in the bottom of an outhouse. Damn, I still cannot imagine how people could do such a thing but on the other hand I can, and it's not that strange, yet totally alien to me as a possibility. Not that I haven't had fantasies of revenge. Just reading this thread, I had a satisfying fantasy of running into my manager at my last job and punching him in the face (hard), or maybe fake that and kick him in the groin repeatedly. Not that I would.

What I have trouble with is your statement that bullies should be regarded as "big friends"...
Notice the quotation marks (!) around the word "friend" ;o) - Unfortunately my keyboard does not contain quotation marks of a sufficient size, but...

Yes, counseling is needed - not just for the child, but for the entire child's family from where that kind of behavior was first tolerated and/or encouraged.
I was talking about the bully! - Obviously his victims - and their parents - could benefit from post traumatic counceling.

If talk and counseling will not help, what do you suggest we do? Allow them to continue to terrorize their peers? I think the only evil act that can be done here is to turn away and do nothing...
I thought I made my suggestion on that pretty clear (quoting myself):

What CAN and SHOULD be done is NOT having a lynchmob, but in stead to HELP THE BULLY WITH HIS CONDITION. That is: to get him in psychiatric treatment so he can get the medication he needs.

Kind regards

R. Nielsen.

Not all persons who bully are "victims". The fact that physiological processes can cause this behavior is certainly a factor to take into consideration. However, none of those processes, in any way, causes, or contributes to psychosis. It is then fair to say that, even if the "bully in question" is a victim of nuerological difference not disimilar to what so many of us in the ADD community endure, he or she is still quite capable of knowing full well that their actions are "right" or "wrong" in a given context, and while counseling and possibly medication is certainly part of the intervention, punitive measures and deterents are perfectly appropriate. An explanation for inappropriate behavior or a tendency towards it, is not the same as an excuse for that behavior. Wrong is wrong, and not appropriately disciplining a child who hurts others is telling them their "condition" makes this "okay", rather than showing them that while it may be difficult for them to work around some of their impulsivity issues, it is most assuredly "NOT OKAY". While they may find this approach frustrating, and many of the people who have to deal with them may as well, in the end they will find it empowering, and society may well avoid having yet another inmate for our tax payers to foot the bill for feeding.

I apologize, if I sound a bit confrontational. It is just that your particular argument is used on a daily basis (often, unfortunately, quite successfully) by pattern domestic violence offenders, who insist their crimes are entirely a product of biological and psychological problems. Not only does this give mentally ill persons who really do have issues that impair judgement in a legally meaningful way a bad rap (because the backlash generated by cases like repeat offender domestic abusers disinclines prosecutors from even considering diminished capacity), but when successful, as it all too often is, it relegates the perpatrator of a violent crime to weekly or monthly visits to a counselor, rather than the jail sentence a similar assault on a complete stranger would have brought.

They don't even have data on the success rate of counseling, however the recidivism rate of domestic abusers is so high, that it is doubtful that it has much if any effect. Often enough someone is killed or permanently maimed before the offender is placed where he can no longer harm anyone.

That is what the "You have to look at them as someone who needs help" philosophy gets you when you do not first address protecting the victims and punishing the crime. I acknowledge that the condition itself may allow for some mitigation of the punishment. That's a BIG may though, as none of the conditions I am aware of causes any issues with being aware of reality and consequences. ADDers are impulsive too, and we get our punishments. A person who needs treatment, can when our judicial system allows for it, just as easily get treatment in jail, as through outpatient treatment.

My brother was in counseling for years. My mom was frustrated that the counselor refused to tell her about the "progress" though she was paying for it.

Anyways, he wasn't stupid and straightened up as necessary, found a wife who loves him, has been reliable to her and he gets by in the world OK as far as I know.

Not everyone who bullies turns into a hazard to society. Many learn from it and grow, just as all humans learn and grow in their disparate and different ways. I would even venture to say that MOST learn from it and grow to some degree, though it would be nice to maximize the amount of growth everyone can do.

Sounds like your brother did well. I'm gratified to hear it.

Unfortunately, in today's society, bullies that used to be limited to physical aggression and intimidation now have easier access to weapons and information that makes some dangerous to the point of being deadly. This is the main reason why identification and intervention is more important than ever before.

As you say E-Boy, most grow out of it, but it only takes one to create a tragedy.

Respectfully,
pershingd

Unfortunately too true.