I'm a law student in my first year. I have an adderall prescription of 20 mg/day. At first, I thought this was the ticket for being able to read for hours and hours. However, after taking it for about a month now, I've recognized a SUBSTANTIAL loss in my short-term memory and reasoning ability. It's to the point where I've stopped taking the stuff.

I have a ROUGH time getting through my reading without it. When I'm on it I'm super focused, yet I'll have these 'memory lapses' where my mind will go blank. I even had this happen in class when I got called on for a question. I was answering the question and all of a sudden my mind went completely blank. It was not due to me being nervous, and it seems to happen about once a minute while I'm on it.

Also reasoning through questions seems 10x more difficult while on the stuff. It's really weird, and seems to be getting progressively worse.

Anyways, are there any solutions to this? Is adderall just not for me? I love the focused state I'm in while on it, but when my mind 'blanks' out and my reasoning ability is severely impaired it's definitely not worth it.

Anyone else experience this? Know anything about it chemically/biologically? I really would like some answers!

Thanks in advance.

What I have to say about this is purely opinion based, but I think maybe you either don't need it or need less. Most people who need Adderall find that their 'reasoning' is boosted and their overall concentration is vastly increased. Like I said though, this is simply my opinon.

You need to discuss this with YOUR doc. This is a support forum and we don't have medical professionals give medical advice.

We can support you and give you our experiences, however, if that is what you wish.



When i was on Adderall it helped my short-term memory immensely. It sounds like this isn't just some small side effect, therefore please discuss this with your doc.

I am not a physician (at least, I will not be for a few more years), but there are a number of possibilities.

For example, it could be a result of dopamingeric downregulation or desensitization to dopamine in the caudate. However, with d-amphetamine/adderall, it is more likely a desensitization to released norepinephrine in the hippocampus (given d-amphetamine's very high potentcy as a releaser of NE), combined with an overall depletion of norepinephrine. Amphetamines can initially improve one's memories, but over time it can have the opposite effect.

Perhaps ask your physician to switch you to d-methylphenidate (Focalin, not ritalin!). It is generally considered less neurotoxic than the amphetamines, as it does not release/deplete any neurotransmitters. You may not find it as effective as adderall, but it will not impair your reasoning to the same extent. Provigil/Modafinil (the generic is far inferior) may also prove helpful, as it will not impair your memory at all (however, it is not "motivating" like the amphetamine/methylphenidate)

Personally, I think amphetamine horribly impairs higher level reasoning, in fact I scored much higher on the MCAT without any medications. These medications can be good study aids, but can impair my test-taking abilities.

This was typed fast, hopefully it makes sense....

You need to discuss this with YOUR doc. This is a support forum and we don't have medical professionals give medical advice.

We can support you and give you our experiences, however, if that is what you wish.



When i was on Adderall it helped my short-term memory immensely. It sounds like this isn't just some small side effect, therefore please discuss this with your doc.

My doctor is this really old guy that seems to basically know how to write prescriptions and that's about it (that's been my experience with almost all doctors btw). I go to him because I don't have insurance and he's cheap. So please spare me the 'doctors know all' speech. I've learned 10x more about how adderall and other medications work on this forum then from my doctor.

I am not a physician (at least, I will not be for a few more years), but there are a number of possibilities.

For example, it could be a result of dopamingeric downregulation or desensitization to dopamine in the caudate. However, with d-amphetamine/adderall, it is more likely a desensitization to released norepinephrine in the hippocampus (given d-amphetamine's very high potentcy as a releaser of NE), combined with an overall depletion of norepinephrine. Amphetamines can initially improve one's memories, but over time it can have the opposite effect.

Perhaps ask your physician to switch you to d-methylphenidate (Focalin, not ritalin!). It is generally considered less neurotoxic than the amphetamines, as it does not release/deplete any neurotransmitters. You may not find it as effective as adderall, but it will not impair your reasoning to the same extent. Provigil/Modafinil (the generic is far inferior) may also prove helpful, as it will not impair your memory at all (however, it is not "motivating" like the amphetamine/methylphenidate)

Personally, I think amphetamine horribly impairs higher level reasoning, in fact I scored much higher on the MCAT without any medications. These medications can be good study aids, but can impair my test-taking abilities.

This was typed fast, hopefully it makes sense....

This is helpful. Thanks a lot for taking the time to type it out. Have you tried the other medications you suggested? Why is it that I'm having this issue when most people don't? Also, what is your plan for med school? Drugs or no drugs? If drugs, which ones?

Thanks a ton

My doctor is this really old guy that seems to basically know how to write prescriptions and that's about it (that's been my experience with almost all doctors btw). I go to him because I don't have insurance and he's cheap. So please spare me the 'doctors know all' speech. I've learned 10x more about how adderall and other medications work on this forum then from my doctor.

So this response was due to the effects of adderall????

As a law student you should already know - your doctor is legally responsible for his/her recommendations.

You should also be capable of reading guidelines (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15844) before agreeing to them = we do not give out medical advice.

Moderators - you are smart so spotting them shouldn't be a problem for ya ..

After passing all these fantasy smart people test MACT LSAT W.E.= means you should be able to comprehend a subtle approach to guideline enforcement. {This is as subtle as it gets with me}





Just because you do not have insurance doesn't mean it is wise to settle for some one whom you have little faith in. I was diagnosed uninsured.Gee I thought my brain was worth more than the cheapest doctor I could get a prescription from and I am not even taking it to law school.

If a doctor doesn't know about a medication how does he know I need to take it????

If he isn't versed in a condition how could he possibly be able to diagnosis it and if he doesn't have time to educate me about my treatment then how much time did he/she spend considering it

:confused:Here is to higher level reasoning skills wtf???



Provigil/Modafinil (the generic is far inferior) may also prove helpful, as it will not impair your memory at all (however, it is not "motivating" like the amphetamine/methylphenidate)

Motivating????


I take ADD medications for my attention span problems.



Personally, I think amphetamine horribly impairs higher level reasoning,

Personally I am beginning to question the higher education system

I've had experience with three doctors in this quest for help.

The first didn't have time for me and made that clear. Asking questions felt like I was talking to a wall that couldn't wait to get to the next patient.

I bid him farewell.

The next one I used in conjuction with a psychologist. A little better results, but the doc himself wasn't really experienced in the disorder and only did what I asked him to based on my psychologist's recommendations. The psych was reluctant to diagnose but willing to take my concerns seriously. I stopped only because other parts of my life went to hades at that time and the meds made me sick and it was "Easier" to quit than to keep following up.

Three years later I find a Nurse Practitioner in a new doctor's office. She not only listens to and answers every question, she also seems to me as if she is experienced with the disorder. Her child has it, so even though that's not an adult, she does seem to understand the challenges involved and I'll bet she's done her own extensive research in addition to her schooling.

She is also monitoring my physical health closely rather than simply feeding me pills. For the first time, I feel like my doctor cares enough to do what it takes to make sure I am being treated correctly. She's not blowing me off (doc 1), or humoring me (doc 2). She's actually working with me every step of the way.

Point is.... insured or not, if you don't trust your doctor, find a new one. Then again drugs in general give me the heebie jeebies, so I don't take my health and safety lightly. It's worth finding someone you can trust and feel comfortable with.

I think it's risky to place your health in the hands of a forum where you don't know the people or their actual experience or expertise. Talk to your doc. If you don't feel comfortable with him... find someone else. This is your health. I too would be scared by such symptoms. Best of luck to you.

Yes, I admit it was vague, but by "higher level reasoning" I was simply referring to things like well-crafted arguments, writing music etc. Of course, there is no question that amphetamine improves performance in regards to repetitive tasks or "busy work".

Also, I was not trying to give medical advice. He asked about the biochemical mechanism through which chronic amphetamine use appears to impair memory, so I gave him a few possibilities (as well as some drugs that are not known to cause a similar impairment).


For medical school, I plan to use ADHD meds as little as possible. In cases where I simply need to stay awake, I will switch back to Modafinil. Fortunately, I am already a very hyper individual, and generally only need 4 hours of sleep.


Motivating????

I take ADD medications for my attention span problems.

Please notice that I put "motivating" in quotation marks, as I also don't think this usage is entirely appropriate. However, I've noticed that many people on this forum refer to the "motivating" properties of these stimulants, so I thought I would make it clear that Modafinil did not possess these qualities.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Personally, I think amphetamine horribly impairs higher level reasoning, </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Personally I am beginning to question the higher education system

Keep in mind that I write these replies very quickly, and although it may not be eloquent, I think I get my point across.

Taking Dexedrine for over 7 months I have found my working memory has vanished and I just keep getting worse and worse as it depletes my neurotransmitters... got Wellbutrin and Ritalin in the past month and they have restored my ability to think... without going blank all the time. Ritalin is definitely better long term than Dexedrine...

also these people going on and on about focalin... its rubbish. The L-isomer of Ritalin is better for dopamine reuptake inhibition.. the d-isomer is better with norepinephrine, it is opposite of the amphetamine molecule.

Taking Dexedrine for over 7 months I have found my working memory has vanished and I just keep getting worse and worse as it depletes my neurotransmitters... got Wellbutrin and Ritalin in the past month and they have restored my ability to think... without going blank all the time. Ritalin is definitely better long term than Dexedrine...

also these people going on and on about focalin... its rubbish. The L-isomer of Ritalin is better for dopamine reuptake inhibition.. the d-isomer is better with norepinephrine, it is opposite of the amphetamine molecule.

I've found that I go back to 'normal' (mind not blanking out, being able to reason through arguments and ideas more effectively and quickly) just as soon as the stuff wears off (5 hrs. later). Was that the case for you as well, or has it taken you months of another med to get your capacity back to normal?

The easy thing is simply...try a few days off. If you have been taking it a month straight every day, and it's no secret it's hard on your body.

If I take it a week straight I start to get exhausted, but if I just stop for one day then I am right as rain.

If that doesn't work you may need to lower your dose or get something else.

Much like some laymen with legal advice, I guess the mods here don't understand what does and does not constitute 'medical advice'. So I will say 'Don't miscontrue this as medical advice' much as a lawyer friend would say 'don't misconstrue this as legal advice', and of course see what your doc has to say at some point.

also these people going on and on about focalin... its rubbish. The L-isomer of Ritalin is better for dopamine reuptake inhibition.. the d-isomer is better with norepinephrine, it is opposite of the amphetamine molecule.

D-methylphenidate is without question the active enantiomer. Also, L-MPH is cleared more rapidly than d-MPH due to carboxylesterase stereoselectivity for the l-MPH enantiomer, so plasma levels never get very high and do not last long. I would have thought that anyone who has taken both ritalin and focalin would see the difference in racemic MPH and d-MPH. Aside from the pharmacological properties, d,l-MPH "feels" nastier, in terms of body load and negative GI effects.

Here is an ASPET journal abstract:


Pharmacology of the enantiomers of threo-methylphenidate

<!-- AUTHORS -->
KS Patrick, RW Caldwell, RM Ferris and GR Breese <!-- AFFILIATION -->
<!-- ABSTRACT -->
The pharmacology of the enantiomers of threo-methylphenidate (MPH) was<SUP> </SUP>evaluated in the rat to assess the relative contribution of each isomer to<SUP> </SUP>central and peripheral actions of the racemic drug. Fractional<SUP> </SUP>recrystallization of binaphthyl phosphate salts of dl-threo-MPH allowed<SUP> </SUP>resolution of d-threo-MPH and 92% enrichment of l-threo-MPH. The<SUP> </SUP>enantiomeric disposition was monitored using gas chromatographic separation<SUP> </SUP>of trifluoroacetylprolyl diastereomeric derivatives. The activity of the<SUP> </SUP>d-isomer was greater than the l-isomer in the induction of locomotor<SUP> </SUP>activity and the inhibition of tritiated dopamine and l- norepinephrine<SUP> </SUP>uptake into striatal and hypothalamic synaptosomes, respectively. Neither<SUP> </SUP>isomer produced a significant change in the spontaneous release of<SUP> </SUP>tritiated catecholamines from synaptosomes. Destruction of<SUP> </SUP>catecholaminergic neurons by 6-hydroxydopamine pretreatment attenuated the<SUP> </SUP>locomotor response to d-threo-MPH, indicating the involvement of<SUP> </SUP>catecholaminergic neural pathways in the locomotor response. Only the<SUP> </SUP>d-enantiomer significantly potentiated the pressor responses to i.v.<SUP> </SUP>l-norepinephrine. Receptor site stereoselectively for threo- vs.<SUP> </SUP>erythro-MPH is discussed in terms of isomer conformational preferences.<SUP> </SUP>These results suggest that synaptic inhibition of catecholamine uptake by<SUP> </SUP>d-threo-MPH may be involved fundamentally in behavioral and pressor effects<SUP> </SUP>of the racemic drug. <!-- COPYRIGHT -->Volume 241, Issue 1, pp. 152-158, 04/01/1987
Copyright © 1987 by American Society for Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics


</VARDEF>



CaptainSanity's suggestion is a good one. Allow a few days for your neurotransmitter levels to recover, and see if you notice an improvement.

also these people going on and on about focalin... its rubbish. The L-isomer of Ritalin is better for dopamine reuptake inhibition.. the d-isomer is better with norepinephrine, it is opposite of the amphetamine molecule.

It's not all about dopamine. Whether something crosses the blood-brain barrier more easily can also make a difference.

D-methylphenidate is without question the active enantiomer. Also, L-MPH is cleared more rapidly than d-MPH due to carboxylesterase stereoselectivity for the l-MPH enantiomer, so plasma levels never get very high and do not last long. I would have thought that anyone who has taken both ritalin and focalin would see the difference in racemic MPH and d-MPH. Aside from the pharmacological properties, d,l-MPH "feels" nastier, in terms of body load and negative GI effects.

Yes, exactly.

d-MPH crosses the blood-brain barrier easier than l-MPH does. Thus, it places less load on the PNS.

I'm a law student in my first year. I have an adderall prescription of 20 mg/day. At first, I thought this was the ticket for being able to read for hours and hours. However, after taking it for about a month now, I've recognized a SUBSTANTIAL loss in my short-term memory and reasoning ability. It's to the point where I've stopped taking the stuff.

I have a ROUGH time getting through my reading without it. When I'm on it I'm super focused, yet I'll have these 'memory lapses' where my mind will go blank. I even had this happen in class when I got called on for a question. I was answering the question and all of a sudden my mind went completely blank. It was not due to me being nervous, and it seems to happen about once a minute while I'm on it.

Also reasoning through questions seems 10x more difficult while on the stuff. It's really weird, and seems to be getting progressively worse.

Anyways, are there any solutions to this? Is adderall just not for me? I love the focused state I'm in while on it, but when my mind 'blanks' out and my reasoning ability is severely impaired it's definitely not worth it.

Anyone else experience this? Know anything about it chemically/biologically? I really would like some answers!

Thanks in advance.

Wow I am facing the exact same issue! I start taking it during may and in september, (3 months of taking it now) my memory was horribly screwed over and my reasoning ability slowed down completely. Im focused like u but im wondering to myself 'what the hell is going on!?' when i am studying. I take breaks on weekends, but that barely helps.

Btw, my doc tweaked my prescription from 20mg of adderal xr to 25mg last week because of how i was complaining that it wasnt working too good. 2nd day taking my 25xr- not significant results at ALL...more focused but still memory and reasoning are impaired..

Out of curiousity, did u smoke a lot of pot currently? Because the thing that i noticed was the meds became much less effective after i started smoking approximately 2 grams in a sitting every friday and saturday-maybe this might be the problem?? (I stopped friday btw, no point for me to do it anymore.)

Perhaps it is best to try and look up supplements that synergize with the adderall or reduce the adderall's toxicity? theres a link around here sumwhere...Seriously, this is a scary ride though, blanking out during a class lecture when ur teacher asks u is not cool at all...

why are you still taking it if you're getting side effects you don't like??

Wow I am facing the exact same issue! I start taking it during may and in september, (3 months of taking it now) my memory was horribly screwed over and my reasoning ability slowed down completely. Im focused like u but im wondering to myself 'what the hell is going on!?' when i am studying. I take breaks on weekends, but that barely helps.

Btw, my doc tweaked my prescription from 20mg of adderal xr to 25mg last week because of how i was complaining that it wasnt working too good. 2nd day taking my 25xr- not significant results at ALL...more focused but still memory and reasoning are impaired..

Out of curiousity, did u smoke a lot of pot currently? Because the thing that i noticed was the meds became much less effective after i started smoking approximately 2 grams in a sitting every friday and saturday-maybe this might be the problem?? (I stopped friday btw, no point for me to do it anymore.)

Perhaps it is best to try and look up supplements that synergize with the adderall or reduce the adderall's toxicity? theres a link around here sumwhere...Seriously, this is a scary ride though, blanking out during a class lecture when ur teacher asks u is not cool at all...

Okay, it makes me feel better that I'm not alone on this. However, I don't smoke pot...ever. I don't drink, and I take extremely good care of my body (workout weights and cardio daily, eat balanced whole grain meals, never do any drugs other than caffeine, etc.)


The whole time I've been taking adderall, I take the weekends off (don't take it at all Saturday or Sunday). I went and asked a pharmicist about what's going on and he basically was dumbfounded. His conclusion to my question basically came down to "we are barely skimming the service on knowing how the brain works...everyone is different...there's not specific answers to why it effects people differently."

why are you still taking it if you're getting side effects you don't like??

I have stopped taking it. I feel like my brain is actually functioning correctly now; however, getting through all the reading and being able to focus for over 10 hrs a day is tough without it. That's why I'm seeking advise/answers.

Another thing to try is neuroprotectants. They keep brain cells from dying off. Things like idebenone and piracetam. Even nicotine. Actually, if all you need is focus for studying, 1/4-1/2 of a nicotine patch can serve you well.

*fart sound*

I cant get Focalin... so *fart sound*

if u want...take a DLPA supplement- its abreviated for DL-Phenylalanine...helps with the annoying confusion when ur on ur adderall....i took 750mg 2 hours after eating food. it smoothens out the adderall effects in my opinion...but just make sure ur ok with taking an additional supplement, this amino acid, with the adderall...

oh yeah and btw, updosing didnt help me with the short term memory issue/ reasonal thinking.

I'm a law student in my first year. I have an adderall prescription of 20 mg/day. At first, I thought this was the ticket for being able to read for hours and hours. However, after taking it for about a month now, I've recognized a SUBSTANTIAL loss in my short-term memory and reasoning ability. It's to the point where I've stopped taking the stuff.

I have a ROUGH time getting through my reading without it. When I'm on it I'm super focused, yet I'll have these 'memory lapses' where my mind will go blank. I even had this happen in class when I got called on for a question. I was answering the question and all of a sudden my mind went completely blank. It was not due to me being nervous, and it seems to happen about once a minute while I'm on it.

Also reasoning through questions seems 10x more difficult while on the stuff. It's really weird, and seems to be getting progressively worse.

Anyways, are there any solutions to this? Is adderall just not for me? I love the focused state I'm in while on it, but when my mind 'blanks' out and my reasoning ability is severely impaired it's definitely not worth it.

Anyone else experience this? Know anything about it chemically/biologically? I really would like some answers!

Thanks in advance.

As an E-doctor, I'm not so sure medication is for you.

You are experiencing what we in the virtual medical field call "something similar to state dependent learning"

I think your brain is missing the connections it usually makes when you are in your natural state. Because...in your medicated state, your brain is "re-mapped" in a way.

I've experienced what you are talking about, but its usually when the medicine wears off. Then again, I've been on it for a LONG LONG LONG time.

I've had amazing results with improved working memory from alpha-2 agonists like tenex and clonidine. This effect seems hit or miss in medical studies. I'm ADD-PI a near match to the unofficial SCT diagnosis.

BobC

As an E-doctor, I'm not so sure medication is for you.

You are experiencing what we in the virtual medical field call "something similar to state dependent learning"

I think your brain is missing the connections it usually makes when you are in your natural state. Because...in your medicated state, your brain is "re-mapped" in a way.

I've experienced what you are talking about, but its usually when the medicine wears off. Then again, I've been on it for a LONG LONG LONG time.

haha..the term E doctor is just a joke, I really am not here to get diagnosed (that's an answer to the people who replied 'talk to your doctor!'). However I AM here to get some further detailed information.

I know it's a pain, but could you further explain this? What specifically happens? Why is it that I experience this? Any answers would be appreciated, but if there are none that's okay too.

Thanks for taking the time to help me out!!!

As an E-doctor,
"something similar to state dependent learning"


This statement was profound to me. When I study I seriously have to 'amp' up my state of mind to learn. I definitely am a state dependent learner. It's annoying because I seriously can't do homework at home because it seems like I fail at getting myself into a 'learning' state of mind while I'm there. SOOO, I stay at the library all day long. Anyways.....

I seem to be learning dependent as well, in college I was locked into a library all the time. You'd better take care of this issue as the real world doesn't work like this , unless you work mobile. What's all this regarding tenex or beta blockers helping your medication work better? This is new to me-

I also had issues with short-term memory and adderall. . . sometimes I'd be in the middle of saying something, and forget the rest of my thought. I could focus better, but sometimes focussed too much on one thing to the detriment of others.

I also found that I was exceptionally scatterbrained when the adderall wore off.

Both of these effects were reasons why I stopped taking the med eventually.

It's kind of odd, though because certain forms of very short-term memory (i.e. working memory) actually seemed to be enhanced by the adderall. I was able to program better because I could keep more information in my head at one time. But when I was on adderall, when a thought was gone, it was gone. Off-drug I can usually retrace my thought process and retrieve the missing bit of information.

I think we are all trying to draw too much insight on how the med works for each of us. True we all want to function more normal and have better access to our working memory and long term memory . Unfortunately no medications are perfect. I agree with the statements on adderall , it works and sometimes when it wears off I feel like a moron, more so than ritalin for sure. Do I know why, maybe it's harder on your system ? Maybe it amps up your neurotransmitters to a point that it wears them down a bit, but honestly I usually feel fine and don't really care when it wears off- Overthinking things can make you sick

Okay, it makes me feel better that I'm not alone on this. However, I don't smoke pot...ever. I don't drink, and I take extremely good care of my body (workout weights and cardio daily, eat balanced whole grain meals, never do any drugs other than caffeine, etc.)



Okay, but were you sleeping less when you were on it?

Sleep deprivation symptoms include irritability, fatigue, blurred vision, slurring of speech, memory lapses, and inability to concentrate.

Even missing just an hour a night can add up quickly and impair functioning.

haha..the term E doctor is just a joke, I really am not here to get diagnosed (that's an answer to the people who replied 'talk to your doctor!'). However I AM here to get some further detailed information.

I know it's a pain, but could you further explain this? What specifically happens? Why is it that I experience this? Any answers would be appreciated, but if there are none that's okay too.

Thanks for taking the time to help me out!!!

It's medication man, what do you expect?

You need to be aware of when this problem occurs for a further diagnosis.

Is it immediately after you've taken the meds? Is it about when the meds are wearing off? Is it only in situations were you have to communicate verbally? etc etc etc.

Not to sound unconfident in my e-credentials, but my comments are purely hypothetical and I would heavily weigh the opinions of others as well.