Interesting article on Autism and the hyperactve brain in the New Scientist

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19926741.700-do-supercharged-brains-give-rise-to-autism.html

No mention of ADHD but the parallels are very strickng if ADHD is indeed a mild autism spectrum dsorder.

Anyone have any detail on this...?

kilted

It's an intriguing article. I'd like to read the whole thing and find out what research this is based on.


Me :D

Here is a link to a more complete version.

http://media-dis-n-dat.blogspot.com/2008/09/autism-linked-to-supercharged-brain.html




Interesting article on Autism and the hyperactve brain in the New Scientist

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19926741.700-do-supercharged-brains-give-rise-to-autism.html

No mention of ADHD but the parallels are very strickng if ADHD is indeed a mild autism spectrum dsorder.

Anyone have any detail on this...?

kilted

In my view the ADHD covers a whole specter, at one end conditions somewhat related to autism, on the other end the opposite of the autistic personality. Both ends will be diagnosed as ADHD.
For the opposites of the autistic brain the problem is not over-, but understimulation, wide and loose associations, which is why these people seek enriched environments,are hypersocial, overempathic, hate detail, but can see the whole picture and often have memory like a goldfish.
Since many processes are disturbed by both under- and overstimulation, there will be overlaps and confusing similar symptoms. The important thing to understand is that the treatment regime should be individualised, and in fact sometimes quite different, even when some symptoms are similar.

I've seen a link between ADHD - with emphasis on the H
and Aspergers (on the autism spectrum)

though not ADD-I with emphasis on the I

Is there any chance that the ADHD mind + education leads to the Aspergers mind on its way through to balance.

All of the (many) Asperger types I know are extremely thin -
are all in IT and all love the regularity of IT

- though all seem to not quite be able to see the 'point' -
a difficult point to get across

- to be able to perform any technical measure without being able to define whether there's any merit in the new procedure which they've dutifully coded

- in all cases they have wives who are (unlike them) - very emotionally aware -
very people friendly
- wives with overwhelming tendency towards ADD-I with emphasis on the I.

now that's interesting

Olavia (just seen your post) has written an almost identical observation

Olavia describing the other end of the autism spectrum.


hypersocial,
overempathic,
hate detail,
but can see the whole picture
often have memory like a goldfish.

My post attempting to describe the dual (opposite) to Asperger



- in all cases they have wives who are (unlike them) - very emotionally aware
- very people friendly
- wives with overwhelming tendency towards ADD-I with emphasis on the I.

I would not be surprised if the wide range of presentations grouped under the ADHD label is teased out with time and research into several different conditions and future diagnosticians will be staggered that their predecessors conisdered them variants of one condition.

kilted

The Markrams believe that autistic children suffer from "hypermemory" which lock them into certain compulsive routines and develop their savant skills.

"They build very strong memories," said Mrs Markram. "So strong that you establish a routine that you can't undo: you are stuck on a track."

There was some research earlier than the Markrams that pointed to a hyperactive developmental mechanism in the brain during early childhood, causing ultra rapid brain growth, as a mechanism leading to autism. The Markrams appear to have taken it a lot further by suggesting a mechanism for autism itself.

I'm not seeing anything in these articles linking ADHD to autism. The latest science for ADHD puts a completely different mechanism for the cause of ADHD ( immature mylenization development in parts of the brain) than this article does for autism. If anything it points out that ADHD and autism are decidedly different.


Me :D

Here is the article that I was talking about...

Is autism caused by early hyperactivity of brain-derived neurotrophic factor?

<!--AuthorList-->Tsai SJ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Tsai%20SJ%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus).
Department of Psychiatry, Veterans General Hospital-Taipei, No. 201 Shin-Pai Road, Sec. 2, 11217 Taipei, Taiwan, ROC. sjtsai@vghtpe.gov.tw
Autism, a childhood-onset neurodevelopmental disorder, is characterized by disturbances in socialization and language skills, as well as in perception. Several studies indicate the importance of both genetic and environmental factors in the development of idiopathic autism, but the underlying pathogenesis of this disorder is still unknown. Brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) is important for normal neuronal development. Early BDNF hyperactivity may play an etiological role in autism early in life. This hypothesis is supported by the finding that serum and brain tissue BDNF levels are increased in autism compared with normal controls. Furthermore, BDNF hyperactivity may be associated with early brain outgrowth, increased prevalence of seizures in autism, and similar behaviors observed in autism and fragile X syndrome. Further studies of serum BDNF levels and genetic studies of the BDNF signaling pathway may help to clarify the role of BDNF in the pathogenesis of autism. Attempts to prove the BDNF hyperactivity hypothesis may lead investigators in a new direction for the study of the pathogenesis of autism and the development of an effective intervention of this disorder.
PMID: 15893122 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

from Tammy
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=412391&postcount=8

Neuroscientists at the University of California at Irvine discovered that exercise triggers the release of BDNF, a brain-derived neurotrophic factor ... ...
- that's a major connect
BDNF-autism < -- > BDNF-ADHD

BDNF enhances cognition by boosting the ability of neurons to communicate with one another:- )

... ... ... and then ... ... ...

http://www.addforums.com/forums//showthread.php?t=37372&page=5

Brain derived neurotrophic factor - would certainly allow rejigging of neurones on the physical layer ->- to iron out logical inconsistencies on the higher 'mental' layer ... ...BDNF-autism < --- > BDNF-ADHD
pushes on into
BDNF-depression

A commonality here would be in the re-arrangement of neuronal associativity which'd be required to

--- alleviate depression
--- build the autistic central nervous computer (Dr. Spock)
or
--- build the empathy processor of the "insert label here" type
(to be found at the opposite end of the autism spectrum) (Captain Kirk).

I would disagree with SB_UK that ADHD (hyperactive) and AS are strongly linked. ADHD-H (hypersocial, overempathic, etc) seems to present more of an opposite to the autistic personality.

And, at least based on what I've seen on this website and other Asperger forums, inattention seems to be more common among Aspies.

I would consider SCT (at the extreme end of the ADHD-PI spectrum) to be linked with Asperger, much moreso than ADHD with hyperactivity, but that's just my opinion.

Both ends will be diagnosed as ADHD.
For the opposites of the autistic brain the problem is not over-, but understimulation, wide and loose associations, which is why these people seek enriched environments,are hypersocial, overempathic, hate detail, but can see the whole picture and often have memory like a goldfish.

A strong inverse reciprocal link ?

I would disagree that ADHD (hyperactive) and AS are strongly linked. ADHD-H (hypersocial, overempathic, etc) seems to present more of an opposite to the autistic personality.Is a strong inverse reciprocal link a link ?

I would disagree with SB_UK...so would I.

If one has a bar magnet with a North and a South pole -
the polar opposites of North and South are linked.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:xbXvcBuiReN1hM:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/d/d8/20060312083354%21Bar_magnet.jpg

an example - Linkage

(genetic)

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:hSU8f6CxNTwt1M:http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v29/n3/thumbs/ng746-F3.gif

enough to make one question the nature of intelligence -
constructing a genetic map -

where cross-overs occur greater than expected in some regions and less frequently than expected in other -

- the genetic map defines areas of (+) and (-) deviation away from the classical definition of the Welsh centiMorgan.

I would consider SCT (at the extreme end of the ADHD-PI spectrum) to be linked with Asperger, much moreso than ADHD with hyperactivity, but that's just my opinion.

Are you suggesting a strong positive reciprocal link between SCT and Aspergers -
from above - I'm suggesting a strong inverse reciprocal link ?

Funny that we have the exact same observation
- though in opposite context.

I'm basing the statement (SCT ~=~ 1/Aspergers) on the observation that the most extreme Asperger men and women I know
- have SCT-like ADD-I partners.

I'm not too sure that any of the Aspergers which I know have a tendency towards being ADD-I

- however there's a complication -

At balance - the capacity to switch between the two states is gained.

One might observe an individual
perhaps in one state at work -
and in another state at home.

The issue clouds - I believe -
because the tendency at balance is for the individual to be able to demonstrate both of the two polar extreme states
- to switch between the two states
- naturally not to demonstrate both states simultaneously.

(The capacity for switching reminds me of the different periodicities of switching in the three bipolar disorder sub-classsifications -
cyclothymia, BP I and II -
- I'm trying to suggest that there's a merger which completes as balance is achieved -
- a balance which can reduces in periodicity until the capacity to switch drops down to the actual speed of thought (~that is~
real fast))

---meaning---
that if one observes such an individual solely at work - and not at home - that one might gain the wrong impression of an individual (that he has a disorder).

~*~

Perhaps it'd help if I described the Aspergers and ADD-I types which I'm using to base these observations -
- the Asperger's male (diagnosed in many cases) - talks a lot -
is infused with a sense of purpose from believing his current task to be of overwhelming importance.
Although technically skilled - any conversations which I have been a part of with these types - are filled with mis-communications as the actual point of the work is lost to the technical method which needs be chosen in order to transact the process.

And their wives -
- positively charming -
talk about 'people' things - care little for work - often do not finish sentences (trip over their words) -
no sign of competition displayed -
a type which makes one feel relaxed rather than on edge.

- typically these kinda' couples can be relatively strongly connected - though there's a pattern for such couples to have man who cannot understand woman -
and woman who cannot understand man.

The section on 'balance' above feeds into 2 very recent threads on science forum of a train of biochemical events ('retrograde neuroendocrine functioning') -
which conclude at 'balance' -
a form of shared structure between the extremes of man and woman (whichever way around they be) -
to generate a kinda' magnet of N and S poles -

- a single entity which is defined over two polar extreme states

- a reprise to my favourite word
Results 1 - 10 of 96 English pages from www.addforums.com for SB_UK duality. (0.22 seconds) (http://http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu:en-GB:unofficial&hs=ZeM&pwst=1&q=+site:www.addforums.com+SB_UK+duality)

Here is the article that I was talking about...
Is autism caused by early hyperactivity of brain-derived neurotrophic factor?
Furthermore, BDNF hyperactivity may be associated with early brain outgrowth, increased prevalence of seizures in autism, and similar behaviors observed in autism and fragile X syndrome.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=115662&postcount=49
................Genes associated with non-syndromic XLMR are unique in their [association with the Rho GTPase signaling system, which] regulat[es]_ion of_ synaptic growth and connectivity by integrating extracellular and intracellular signals that modify the actin cytoskeleton.X chromosome and mind -
the major class of genetic disorders related to the X chromosome

The influence of X chromosome on mind -
the current field of epigenetic modification on the human genome (which is inherited) -

A reference from previously (I think) - can't find the thread -
the potential impact of epigenetics on mental disorder (from a Nature review article).

Epigenetics in human disease and prospects for epigenetic therapy.
Nature.2004 May 27;429(6990):457-63.
The study of human disease has focused on genetic mechanisms, but disruption of the balance of epigenetic networks can cause several major pathologies, including cancer, syndromes involving chromosomal instabilities, and mental retardation.We are reliant on a pattern of X chromosomal inheritance from mother.
Influences of the environment (workplace) on mother might reasonably be expected to have an effect on the maternal genome by epigenetic mechanism.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1509172/Parents%27-marriage-choice-may-lead-to-autism.html
The recent rise in autism may have been driven by the tendency of like-minded engineers, physicists, mathematicians and other "systemizers" to marry each other, according to a Cambridge University professor.Simon Baron Cohen -
Prof. Exp Psych at Cambridge

-> Speedo and Queen's Uni girl
- you guys would really like Simon Baron-Cohen
:-)

Note

The train of logic (above) is tentatively pointing at the dangers which may arise from the society in which we now find ourselves -
of assortative mating of systematizers
(as government's push ever more people to attend University)
and future spouses meet at University
- often on the same course.

Like academic minds may generate unbalanced children -
and as Prof Cohen describes -
a tendency towards autistic children as maternal epigenetic modifications during her education combine with the new pattern in our society to have children in our mid-30s -
- to generate children with (yes!) - a seeming advantage towards certain pattern of systematic thought -

though at a cost.

My argument has just been constructed (this idea has never occurred to me previously)
- merely attempting to explain the data away - and not to express any form of -ism
- the most obvious -ism which springs to mind being the sexism expressed in the phrase 'women should stay at home and look ater the kids'*

No matter how we try - man cannot pass on his X chromosome to male children.

Mother of male child

and

Mother of father to female child
and
Mother of female child

-->-- hold the key to the X-chromosome.

male cannot make any contribution to X; it's a fundamental of genetics.

If you are offended at the nature of this argument - please don't be -
it's an idea which can be 'right' or 'wrong'.

The nature of science to reject hypotheses has been lost in favour of the new model -
that the scientist is always correct -

I would disagree with SB_UK...
so would I.

* there is personal irony in this statement.

I have high-functioning Asperger's (no longer a big problem) and ADHD-I (big problem). My ADHD-I didn't kick in until 10th grade, which was the first year that I didn't have to take gym and I spent most of my free time at my computer. When I was little my mom took me for walks, then I walked to school, biked, nothing special but it must have helped? Maybe one of the keys is to keep getting regular exercise, anything to elevate the heart rate at least until you stop growing? I've taken up biking again and it helps.

The extreme female brain

Thanks to SB_UK for pointing out the interesting Asperger man plus opposite of Asperger woman couple.

I agree to this pattern, which I have witnessed many times.

Is this ying and yang in practice? What would be more natural?

I like to call the ADD-PI woman one with an extreme female brain.(Baron-Cohen, autism, the extreme male brain).

To the point that was made about Asperger and protest to the link with ADHD-hyperactive.

Yes, hyperactive = hypersocial too

But look at the quality of socialisation.

Hyper people tend to spin large social nets which has an impact on the debth of the emotions and relations. They are likeable and well adjusted socially because the quality is good enough for the purpose.

The woman I am talking about might not be so socially adept. But she READS the mind. That´s why she goes so well with Asperger people who tend to have underactive mirror neuron systems. This woman compensates for that, and with no mu rhythm at all, helps breaking the rhythm of the partner too.

To the point that was made about Asperger and protest to the link with ADHD-hyperactive.

Yes, hyperactive = hypersocial too


I was under the impression that you were suggesting the more inattentive end of the ADHD spectrum was somewhat related to autism, and that the other end (hyperactive, hypersocial, overempathic) was not?


For the opposites of the autistic brain the problem is not over-, but understimulation, wide and loose associations, which is why these people seek enriched environments,are hypersocial, overempathic, hate detail, but can see the whole picture and often have memory like a goldfish.


To me it looks like you are describing ADHD-PH in the above, and saying that it is the opposite of the autistic brain.. which therefore suggests to me that maybe you think ADHD-PI has more in common with autism.

I don't know about the reciprocal link or the AS/ADD partnership thing, as I cannot understand SB_UK's posts; I'm just merely confused from the whole ordeal.

Hi again,
Let me try to explain myself.

First I´d like to say that I am getting a bit worried that this thinking aloud about the autism specter seems to create more confusion than understanding. Let me underline that I do not think that any category on the specter is better or worse. Terms like social and not social carry an emotional charge, which is unfortunate in a discussion like this.Personally, I don´t like that, and I also would rather prefer to talk about neurodiversity than disorders.

So to the questions.

My view:

I think there could be a type of ADD personality, which has traits that are the opposite of Asperger traits. Since these conditions are on a specter, this would not be so surprising. Since Asperger is more common among men, and some researchers speculate that is has to do with testosteron creating an extreme male brain, my hypothesis was that you will also find the opposite of this personality, and these people will be mostly women. Since the problems of these women are not so apparent, they do not come that easily to clinical attention, but also this personality has many problems, as well as many gifts.

This person will be hypersocial, in the sense that she easily reads the feelings, face expressions, body language and emotional climate around her. She will read these signs to the extent that it is overwhelming to her, and creates difficulty with social interaction. So, the paradox arises, that although she has very good social/emotional skillls, she is too sensitive for her own good.She will tend to be understimulated. When people´s brains are more stimulated by themselves, they can shut off exsternal signals and focus, sometimes to the extent that it becomes rigid, like in Asperger sometimes. If I had to give her a name, I think ADD-PI will be more appropriate than ADD-H. So in my first post here I spoke about this woman, not a predominantly hyperactive one. The hyper woman can also be hypersocial and very emphatic. She will however not be as hyperempathic as the opposite of Asperger woman, who is so empathic that it creates problems. Empathy, as a trait or skill, is also a double edged sword. Too much or too little creates problems in communication. That´s my point here, and not the colloqual one, that everybody SHOULD be empathic.

So, no I do not think that ADHD-PI is more similar in symptoms to autism, I think hyperactivity predominant conditions often have more autism traits. Of course the basis of ADHD-PI might also be similar to autism (with something triggering a totally different clinical putcome), but the clinical picture, or symptoms, or behaviour will be opposite when in comes to social stuff, memory, sense of detail etc. What might be similar is distractability.

I am sorry that this was unclear, and I am not too happy with this explanation either.

My main point is that ADHD and autism is not understood well enough. The clinical criteria are so broad that they create confusion and might lead doctors and psychologist to give people the wrong diagnosis and wrong treatment. That is why I think it is important to focus on the differences within the specter.

olavia: I have noticed that I and similar men (high-functioning Aspie's) tend to be attracted towards women who are, as you say, hypersocial, to the point that the women may think that it's a bad thing (overwhelming?) but I don't perceive it as such. They tend to be very honest and forward, which a "normal" person might find annoying but it's very agreeable to me. She's more intelligent than she thinks she is. Being very emphatic and high energy she'll probably be successful in the career world (despite the hypersocial aspect distracting her) but may wind up staying single, in no small part because men like me have trouble getting relationships started. Is that the same type you are describing?

Opposites attract is at work here, with "overly honest" being in common.

Hi Technojunkie,

Yes, it´s someting like this I mean. It´s the same type! How cool is that!

The "overly honest" part is a good point, and yes, I also find that NT men tend to dislike that behaviour in women, whereas men on the spectrum like it.

How interesting that you thought of this from a man´s perspective. Nice:-)

Hi Technojunkie,

Yes, it´s someting like this I mean. It´s the same type! How cool is that!

The "overly honest" part is a good point, and yes, I also find that NT men tend to dislike that behaviour in women, whereas men on the spectrum like it.

How interesting that you thought of this from a man´s perspective. Nice:-)

I think the problem I am having here is more related to myself as I have both inattentive traits and Asperger traits, and you (and others) think that ADHD-I has less to do with autism than ADHD-H. Why I would take this opinion of a few to you personally, is beyond me, but I do this all the time. For some reason once I have established an opinion in my mind, and other (more intelligent) people challenge it in a way that I can't reasonably defend, I take it personally. My fault.

Anyhow, my earlier impression remains as it is, still. Indeed, the one thing undeniably that ADD-PI doesn't share with autism is the overempathy aspect. But I see a lot of other similarities. Tendency for internalizing, distractibility, being "lost in one's own world," oversensitivity to one's surroundings, difficulty with group interaction, honesty, etc, etc.

I think the conclusion I'm coming to here is that I think ADD, regardless of subtype, is related to autism.

Really interesting answer, Batman 555.

I don´t think we disagree that much.

My point/hypothesis that what I referred to as ADD-PI is on the opposite side of autism, does not mean they cannot be related. Since they are both far from the middle way, there could be some common mechanism, that just tips the weight in one way or another according to some other influences.

You are right, when I talked about ADD-PI I tended to focus on the social/emotional part, which is different from autism, and not so much on the inattention (common).

I have a lot of friends who are clearly Aspies, some are ADD, some are mixed. (Birds of feather...) So I like to try to make some observations on what is more common with which personality. My thoughts are just ideas, I don´t know the answer.

I certainly can agree to the lost in one´s own world thing. I guess that is common for many people on the specter, you are absolutely right in that.

Which is sort of comforting:-))

I certainly didn't understand all of the posts here, but am comforted to read that others see a commonality between ADHD and Autism... both tend to run in my family so there would seem to be a common genetic trait involved. I suspect that other neurological conditions may also be related in some manner.

ADHD is commonly associated with other disorders as well.

epilepsy
tourett's syndrome
bipolar disorder


Me :D

ADHD is commonly associated with other disorders as well.

epilepsy
tourett's syndrome
bipolar disorder


Me :D

I had read about the connection between ADHD, Autism, Asperger's, BiPolar, Tourettes, OCD and even Depression, but not Epilepsy. My youngest sister has some form of Autism, OCD and has had Epilepsy (not grand mal). However, I just started reading a book called "Elijah's Cup" with a boy who began having siezures at the age of 2 or 3 and they could find no cause - and then was diagnosed with Asperger's. My little brother also had siezures - he was considered "brain damaged" from birth trauma.

Great article, kilted_scotsman! Just one quick thought based on some of my reading on the subject.

I believe that the diagnostic criteria (DSM IV) for ADHD and the autistic spectra are such that individuals cannot, by definition, be diagnosed with both ADHD and any form of autism. Any psychiatrists or psychologists out there, please correct me if I am wrong on this! However, I do know that individuals with ADHD frequently exhibit a number of symptoms within the autistic spectrum and vice versa.

I'm sure that it can sometimes be a whale of a time differentiating whether an individual is ADD or ADHD with a "side" of autistic symptoms, or falls somewhere on the autistic spectrum and has a "side" of ADD or ADHD symptoms. From my experience, it seems that a number of individuals with Asperger's in particular (which lies on the autistic spectrum) have several ADD or ADHD-like behaviors.

From what I've read, ADHD individuals typically have abnormally low levels of the neurotransmitter dopamine in certain regions of their brains (especially in the prefrontal cortex region). Low levels of dopamine are often (but, by no means always) accompanied by higher levels of serotonin. Autistic individuals typically have notably higher levels of serotonin in their blood. In both ADHD and autism, the levels of serotonin to dopamine are typically much higher than in the general population.
I'm not surprised at all if the brain activities (or "hyperactivities" in this case) are highly similar. Any further ideas or insight?

Interesting article on Autism and the hyperactve brain in the New Scientist

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19926741.700-do-supercharged-brains-give-rise-to-autism.html

No mention of ADHD but the parallels are very strickng if ADHD is indeed a mild autism spectrum dsorder.

Anyone have any detail on this...?

kilted

Sorry to bombard the board with multiple posts. Here is a link (http://www.expert-reviews.com/doi/abs/10.1586/14737175.8.4.657) that I just found which mentions that ADHD and autism cannot be diagnosed together at the same time, an individual is either one or the other. However, I think we can view this as mostly a formality, I have no doubt in my mind that an individual can easily have the majority of the symptoms of both disorders and that there is a significant overlap amongst the possible treatments.

Thanks!