View Full Version : Any info on desoxyn mechanism of action?


mystery
10-09-08, 12:28 AM
I am looking for any information or papers on Desoxyn's mechanism of action. I'm most interested in how the effects should be different from dextroamphetamine. This is the gist of this post, and below is more detail in case you are interested.

Right now, I have some poorly developed theories. Based on information Contrapunctus (http://www.addforums.com/forums/member.php?u=26831) posted, it seems that desoxyn is extremely potent in ability to release dopamine into the synaptic cleft. Supposedly much more potent for dopamine release than dextroamphetamine. Dopamine, among other things, appears to be very important for learning, especially in the prefrontal cortex.

Rags847 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/member.php?u=21945) sent me links to some papers describing the possible inability of dopamine re-uptake inhibitors to increase dopamine much in the perfrontal cortex. Supposedly, there are not many DAT transporters in the PFC. And, more interestingly, norepinephrine re-uptake inhibitors like Strattera, can increase dopamine in the PFC.

Here are the papers:

31. (http://www.psychiatrist.com/brainstorms/br6401.pdf)Neurotransmission of cognition, Part 1. (http://www.psychiatrist.com/brainstorms/br6401.pdf)Dopamine Is a Hitchhiker in Frontal Cortex: Norepinephrine Transporters Regulate Dopamine
32. Neurotransmission of cognition, Part 2. (http://www.psychiatrist.com/brainstorms/br6402.pdf)Selective NRIs Are Smart Drugs: Exploiting Regionally Selective Actions on Both Dopamine and Norepinephrine to Enhance Cognition
33. Neurotransmission of cognition, Part 3. (http://www.psychiatrist.com/brainstorms/br6403.pdf)Mechanism of Action of Selective NRIs: Both Dopamine and Norepinephrine Increase in Prefrontal Cortex


Here are some reasons I am interested:
1. I likely have a mild learning disability, and my memory is poor.
2. Number 1 appears to get worse when I have to move around, i.e., think on my feet. Dopamine is used for movement, and dopamine disorders impair movement, e.g., Parkinson's disease.
3. I respond somewhat to a low dose of dextroamphetamine, but a larger dose that could possibly release dopamine will make me very anxious.
4. There may be no other substance that can compare in dopamine increasing ability in the PFC which could result in drastically improved cognition and learning for me.
5. Methamphetamine appears to enhance BondedCasinos (http://www.addforums.com/forums/member.php?u=26715) learning abilities based on his posts.
6. Strattera (which can increase dopamine in the PFC per the above papers) may cause too many side effects based on my limited experience with it.
7. If I have to jump through countless hoops, visit many doctors, and spend possibly many hundreds of dollars, then I'd like more info. Illegally obtaining it is counterintuitive to my goals, and I need to think ahead about the possibility of addiction.

Mincan
10-09-08, 11:34 AM
First of all, the 31st thing in that list is wrong accorrding to my understanding. It says Norepinephrine Transporters regulate Dopamine, but it actually the opposite. DAT is the transporter for both norepinephrine and epinephrine... these simple being oxidised versions of dopamine via enzyme process. Although epinephrine is secreted from one area in the brain, this is not a regular thing.

D.B. Cooper
10-09-08, 12:16 PM
Yes its called Dopamine Transferase. DA > NE > etc, theres a big long chain of neurochemicals DA breaks down into.

mystery
10-09-08, 01:45 PM
First of all, the 31st thing in that list is wrong accorrding to my understanding. It says Norepinephrine Transporters regulate Dopamine, but it actually the opposite. DAT is the transporter for both norepinephrine and epinephrine... these simple being oxidised versions of dopamine via enzyme process. Although epinephrine is secreted from one area in the brain, this is not a regular thing.

Please read the paper.

amu_d
10-09-08, 01:54 PM
Strattera increases dopamine in the PFC. In fact, it increases DA just as much as it increases NE.

Mincan
10-09-08, 02:05 PM
7. If I have to jump through countless hoops, visit many doctors, and spend possibly many hundreds of dollars, then I'd like more info. Illegally obtaining it is counterintuitive to my goals, and I need to think ahead about the possibility of addiction.


Yea it will be counter intuitive.

Mincan
10-09-08, 02:16 PM
The article was very interesting.

Contrapunctus
10-09-08, 08:17 PM
Mystery, can you elaborate on your question? I am not entirely sure what you are asking here...

Those articles give an ok overview, but there is some misinformation (or, misinterpreted information). For example, in the second article they state:

Stimulants such as methylphenidate and amphetamine are not only inhibitors of dopamine transporters, but also releasers of both dopamine and norepinephrine


Methylphenidate "releases" virtually no catecholamines at even high doses.

Methamphetamine could be a viable option for you, and it is certainly worth trying. So far, from my trials with Desoxyn, I have found that it causes far less anxiety than d-amphetamine. Also, while the "intensity" or "level" of focus is more profound with d-amphetamine, the "quality" of this focus is far greater with methamphetamine.

Out of curiousity, how do you respond to MPH?

amu_d
10-09-08, 09:29 PM
Mystery, can you elaborate on your question? I am not entirely sure what you are asking here...

Those articles give an ok overview, but there is some misinformation (or, misinterpreted information). For example, in the second article they state:



Methylphenidate "releases" virtually no catecholamines at even high doses.

Methamphetamine could be a viable option for you, and it is certainly worth trying. So far, from my trials with Desoxyn, I have found that it causes far less anxiety than d-amphetamine. Also, while the "intensity" or "level" of focus is more profound with d-amphetamine, the "quality" of this focus is far greater with methamphetamine.

Out of curiousity, how do you respond to MPH?

Desoxyn is really expensive, usually not covered by insurance companies, and a pain to get a prescription for

Contrapunctus
10-09-08, 10:48 PM
^^^^All of those things are certainly true, but if he could benefit from doses as small as 2.5mg, it may not be too cost prohibitive.

The following is a good article that will tell you everything you want to know about the specific pharmacological differences between amphetamine, methamphetamine and their isomers...

amu_d
10-09-08, 11:18 PM
^^^^All of those things are certainly true, but if he could benefit from doses as small as 2.5mg, it may not be too cost prohibitive.

He could request his insurance company to cover Desoxyn. The doc would have to agree and write up a request for him.


The following is a good article that will tell you everything you want to know about the specific pharmacological differences between amphetamine, methamphetamine and their isomers...

Which article are you referring to? :confused:

Contrapunctus
10-10-08, 12:29 AM
I am sorry, I took my Desoxyn today and I become forgetful as it wears off...

The link: http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/reprint/15/2/1308.pdf

mystery
10-10-08, 01:04 AM
Mystery, can you elaborate on your question? I am not entirely sure what you are asking here...

Those articles give an ok overview, but there is some misinformation (or, misinterpreted information). For example, in the second article they state:



Methylphenidate "releases" virtually no catecholamines at even high doses.

Methamphetamine could be a viable option for you, and it is certainly worth trying. So far, from my trials with Desoxyn, I have found that it causes far less anxiety than d-amphetamine. Also, while the "intensity" or "level" of focus is more profound with d-amphetamine, the "quality" of this focus is far greater with methamphetamine.

Out of curiousity, how do you respond to MPH?

I am just looking for any in-depth technical information on desoxyn's mechanism of action, and how it should compare and/or differ from dextroamphetamine, because:
1. I've tried dextroamphetamine
2. Methamphetamine is structurally similar to amphetamine
3. I want to try desoxyn

Contrapunctus:
Stimulants such as methylphenidate and amphetamine are not only inhibitors of dopamine transporters, but also releasers of both dopamine and norepinephrine
Methylphenidate "releases" virtually no catecholamines at even high doses.

Yea, that quote bothered me too. Additionally, amphetamines ability to release dopamine appears dose-dependent, according to what you posted.

Contrapunctus:
Out of curiousity, how do you respond to MPH?

It was somewhat helpful but it could make me agitated and in a sort of frenzy. Then after it wore off, I got a marked anti-depressant effect. When that anti-depresseant effect hits, I feel like my cognitive abilities are compromised and I have poor judgement. This is on a very very small dose of .625 mg to 1.25 mg.

The effect may have been somewhat paradoxical. I mean, I did feel more focused, and it seemed to slow my thought processes (like dex does), but in addition to that, I felt somehow in a kind of frenzy to get stuff done. My guess is that it was increasing dopamine in lower regions of the brain, where, I may need dopamine and perhaps norepinephrine in the frontal cortex. Think of how you feel when you haven't had anything to eat for a while (low brain glucose), and are agitated but also stimulated because, say you've downed a cup of coffee. That seemed to be my state, with poor quality of focus.

I've experimented a little with Ritalin, or having both isomers. The effect seemed better with much less anti-depressant effect and more good effects. I took a small dose of about 2.5 mg. It is possible that the L-methylphenidate was increasing norepinephrine levels. I haven't tried it much though and the quality of focus still wasn't great. This seems to be in-line with how I've heard ADHD-PIs may respond to low doses of ritalin.

mystery
10-10-08, 01:13 AM
Desoxyn is really expensive, usually not covered by insurance companies, and a pain to get a prescription for

I'm not going through insurance. I will likely respond to very low doses and would probably prefer low doses. I am taking 1.25 mg dex/day now which appears to be about my optimal dose with little additional benefit from going higher. If I responded to 1.25 mg Desoxyn, then that would cost $32/month. I think I can cover that. :p

mystery
10-10-08, 01:13 AM
I am sorry, I took my Desoxyn today and I become forgetful as it wears off...

The link: http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/reprint/15/2/1308.pdf

Perfect, exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.

amu_d
10-10-08, 07:48 PM
I am sorry, I took my Desoxyn today and I become forgetful as it wears off...

The link: http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/reprint/15/2/1308.pdf

Thanks, I enjoyed that. If only they had included l-MPH and d-MPH as well.

Also, the article was published in 1995 I believe. I wonder if new data has come out on the subject since then.

Djo77
05-17-11, 07:31 PM
Thanks a lot for the information posted in this thread.