View Full Version : Do we have a right to try different medications?


xmikef
10-12-08, 03:09 AM
Hey, I'm 26 going to college and have been struggling with adhd for as long as I can remember. I went to college several times unmedicated and failed. A couple years ago I finally tried medication and started succeeding for the first time in my life, it was wonderful.
Actually, not only succeeding but getting a 4 point in almost all of my classes.

But- I've been struggling with the side effects from medication every since. First my doc put me on:

Wellbutrin: didn't work.
Then Provigil: made me sick!
Then Adderall: this is what helped me succeed but it's like an anxiety pill, gives me nervousness and general stress- really interferes with life.

I was on Adderall for a year or so and couldnt take it anymore so I asked my doc about alternatives. He put me on Lexapro in addition to the Adderall which helped with anxiety but added more side effects so I asked about Dexedrine or Ritalin Or Desoxyn or something. He said he wouldnt want me to try Dexedrine because it's pure speed and Ritalin didn't work as well as Adderall, and he didnt know what Desoxyn was, and he didn't have any other ideas. So I decided I needed a psychiatrist.

With the psychiatrist, I tried:
Dexedrine: slightly less side effects but less helpful studying
Ritalin: less brain function, more agitation

I asked about Desoxyn (because I have read that some people get less side effects with it) and the psychiatrist had not heard about it. I told her what it was and gave her a bunch of info on it, and then she looked at me like I'm trying to get meth to get high and she was on to my game, and said she would never perscribe it. I said I don't care what she gives me, I'm just looking for a way to get through school without wanting to die because of side effects. She then suggested Concerta: I tried it but it was just like Ritalin (duh). I also asked her about Focalin but she said it should be just like Ritalin and she doesn't really think that the chirality thing makes a difference. I asked her about Desoxyn one more time during my last visit and she got frustrated and said she wasn't even going to talk about it.

My psychologist had suggested that perhaps she likes the fact that Dexedrine (which is what I have been taking most of the time) gives me unpleasant side effects, because it encourages me to not take it when I don't need it.

This makes me so so frustrated!!! If there is a way to not be medicated and succeed in school, I'm all for it. Thing is, I've tried everything. Medication helps me. So since I am going to take medication to get through school, don't I have a right to at least try Desoxyn and see if it gives me less side effects than Adderall?

Don't we have this right? BTW I have never abused my medication, don't take it to get high, and my psychiatrist has no reason to believe that this is my motivation.

redfishoil
10-12-08, 08:46 AM
You haven't tried strattera yet. It's a non-stimulant ADD medication that may suit you better. I personally did not like it but I know it helped a lot of other people. About your original question, about trying different meds, you can always see a different doctor or psychiatrist. I've been through 3 now. Strattera worked really well but made me angry, Ritalin actually shortened my attention span, and adderal has given me a moderate improvement. Don't give up!!!!!:)

watts
10-12-08, 08:56 AM
Next time you visit with the psychologist ask them about professional responsibility (regarding the doctor who (a) knew what desoxyn was but told you he/she didn't and (b) is either somewhat clueless or pulling your chain.

The doctor/patient relationship is based on honesty and your desire to improve your condition as well as the doctors oath to assist you (not BULL**** you).

I have been in your shoes years ago and gave up treatment and it took me about five years and many headaches to get back on meds and some normalcy.

meadd823
10-12-08, 09:34 AM
Well before we get all up in arms about the doctors treatment maybe we should consider things from the doctor's point of view. Although you do not personally abuse medications it is hard for them to know this - Maybe her last ADD patent was like this guy (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58283).


I understand you need help but they need to be cautious for good reasons. I don't think this is your fault or the doctors Personally I blame those who abuse ADD medications:mad:

D.B. Cooper
10-12-08, 10:06 AM
Most people claim there isnt a massive difference between dexedrine and desoxyn aside from dosing.

amu_d
10-12-08, 02:43 PM
Most people claim there isnt a massive difference between dexedrine and desoxyn aside from dosing.

As far as effect on neurotransmitters is concerned, I would go as far as to say, the difference among ritalin, adderall, and dexedrine is LESS than that between desoxyn and any of the first three.

Contrapunctus
10-12-08, 03:19 PM
I asked about Desoxyn (because I have read that some people get less side effects with it) and the psychiatrist had not heard about it. I told her what it was and gave her a bunch of info on it, and then she looked at me like I'm trying to get meth to get high and she was on to my game, and said she would never perscribe it. I said I don't care what she gives me, I'm just looking for a way to get through school without wanting to die because of side effects. She then suggested Concerta: I tried it but it was just like Ritalin (duh). I also asked her about Focalin but she said it should be just like Ritalin and she doesn't really think that the chirality thing makes a difference. I asked her about Desoxyn one more time during my last visit and she got frustrated and said she wasn't even going to talk about it.

Your physician does not sound very bright! There is a huge difference between the levo and dextrorotary isomers of methylphenidate, in fact, l-methylphenidate is for practical purposes, inactive (not entirely inactive, but again for practical purposes it is inactive).

I would not tolerate this from a physician. You are paying her for a service; if she is incompetent, fire her! The comment about dexedrine being pure speed is incredibly dumb, as if pure d-amphetamine is any more abusable than Adderall (some stimulant abuses, like those in europe, actually prefer the racemic amphetamine because of the "body high").

Desoxyn is a good medication and is only marginally more abusable than dexedrine (at least, in prescribed dosages). Unfortunately, many physicians are too frightened (and in turn, ignorant) to prescribe methamphetamine, as they think the abuse potential is far greater than that of amphetamine. Methamphetamine is a viable treatment option, although it is generally consider a "second line" medication.


Desoxyn certainly feels different than d-amphetamine. There is very little anxiety with the methamphetamine (less released NE), and it is not "zombifying" like d-amphetamine. Also, it feels more "sedating" than d-amphetamine, which in turns helps my hyperactivity...

DesertDave
10-12-08, 04:02 PM
Interesting thread. I asked my p-doc about Focalin after trying Ritalin. He said it's the same thing except the molecule is just one side of it. Or something like that. Essentially he dismissed it. But I'm reading here that it's the right solution for some people.

I kind of got the same reaction when I asked about some other drug that isn't used that often but have seen mentioned on here.

My choice would be to avoid stims, but since those seem to have the widest use, that's the route we're going (Adderall right now).

xmikef
10-12-08, 04:31 PM
Yea I know this wouldn't be a problem at all if people out there weren't abusing their meds and selling them to their friends and stuff. But obviously this frustrates me even more, because I know that I'm not going to do this!

I have been avoiding strattera because of a few reasons which I'd rather not mention. I'll still give it a try but I'd rather try if there's nothing else.

Regarding the chirality thing, I know that in some cases it means very big differences. At least it does for Desoxyn, isn't levomethamphetamine available over the counter as Vick's inhaler because it is a bronchodilator that doesn't affect your CNS? That means that dextromethamphetamine is going to have less side effects right there because of its chirality. Not to mention other drugs, like Thalidimide where one isomer is effective against nausea but the other isomer gives horrible birth defects.

When she said that she doesn't think the chirality matters, I thought she must know that it does but she's just telling me this other stuff because it's some kind of therapy thing or something. I know that sometimes psych docs tell you one thing but mean another for reasons sometimes, but of course this lady could just legitimately not be very good too.

I also got concerned when after Ritalin made me feel worse, she thought to try Concerta. (?)
There were a couple other times she did stuff like this that made me go 'hmm'.

I would like to try Desoxyn, not because I'm convinced that it will work for me, but because Adderall and Dexedrine make me feel like a zombie with anxiety and I really hate life while I'm on it; and many people say that Desoxyn doesn't do this.

Do I have the right to demand a trial of Desoxyn? Also, how do I go about finding a new psychiatrist if I do decide to do that? (anyone here in Washington State?)

mystery
10-12-08, 04:42 PM
He said he wouldnt want me to try Dexedrine because it's pure speed
And adderall isn't "pure" enough? It's too bad a patient's treatment and ultimately wellbeing rests on doctors with such a poor understanding and prejudice. Adderall is nearly 75% dextroamphetamine which is the active ingredient in dextroamphetamine sulfate preparations (or dexedrine).

I asked about Desoxyn (because I have read that some people get less side effects with it) and the psychiatrist had not heard about it. I told her what it was and gave her a bunch of info on it, and then she looked at me like I'm trying to get meth to get high and she was on to my game, and said she would never perscribe it. I said I don't care what she gives me, I'm just looking for a way to get through school without wanting to die because of side effects. She then suggested Concerta: I tried it but it was just like Ritalin (duh). I also asked her about Focalin but she said it should be just like Ritalin and she doesn't really think that the chirality thing makes a difference. I asked her about Desoxyn one more time during my last visit and she got frustrated and said she wasn't even going to talk about it.

This was a bad move IMO to insist on it.

Think of it like this. It's the doctor's job to treat you (the patient). They may or may not want to use a certain method. Just like at your job you may dislike your boss undermining your experience and requiring you to do something a specific way, instead of just saying "do this" and leaving it to your discretion. Sometimes your boss may not really understand the risks or the full implications of doing something a certain way because they are not specialized in that field.

I would display respect for the doctor's advice, even if it is obviously bad advice. But at the same time, I would have little respect for a doctor that is obtuse, and highly prejudice. Also, your relationship to them, I think is very important. If they think you are out to abuse a substance, then this is a terrible relationship and I would instantly fire them! This is provided one is seeking legitimate treatment for ADHD.

In either case, if you don't like the advice or the doctor, then find another doctor to get different advice :). It's pretty simple, but unfortunately can be very expensive.

To answer your question, I do think patients have every right to try different medications. Unfortunately, as far as the government is concerned, we don't. This is to protect all the people out there who would abuse the hell out of any substance that induces euphoria and be a liability to themselves and society.

But, if one develops a good relationship with a decent doctor, then the doctor may be open to suggestion on what advice they should give and how they should treat the patient.

xmikef
10-12-08, 05:01 PM
I agree with you Mystery, I didn't insist on it I merely brought it up in discussion and I am letting her decide how to treat me. But I am frustrated doing stuff like trying concerta when ritalin made me angry and feeling sick.

Also she wanted me to try Remeron for depression which has been really bad lately because my wife left me when I was 6 months into chemotherapy this last winter and life has really been getting me down. But, I get really bad restless leg syndrome and that prevents me from being able to take many different drugs, including antidepressants, and ESPECIALLY antihistamines. When I take antihistamines, my RLS gets so bad its literally torture, I don't want to go through it its more horrible than I can describe. I told her that since Remeron has an antihistamine effect I'm really worried that it will flare up my RLS. She said that many antidepressants flare up RLS because they effect seretonin which in turn reduces dopamine, and Remeron is an antihistamine which is different. I again told her about how horrible antihistamines are and I won't touch them with a 20 foot pole. She insisted that I at least give it a try which I did.
I took it one night and that is the LAST night I ever take the stuff.

This kind of stuff makes it hard for me to just trust the doctor and go with what they think is best. I know that trying meds is a process and different meds work differently for different people though, and some people with complicated health issues (like me) sometimes have to try several before they find one that works. Unfortunately my doc doesn't want me to try the one drug that most people claim to have little side effects.

mystery
10-12-08, 05:25 PM
I would like to try Desoxyn, not because I'm convinced that it will work for me, but because Adderall and Dexedrine make me feel like a zombie with anxiety and I really hate life while I'm on it; and many people say that Desoxyn doesn't do this.

Do I have the right to demand a trial of Desoxyn?


What is the effect when you lower the dosage of either adderall or dex? I take just a very small micro-dose of dex which is actually more beneficial than a larger dose due to sides.

You don't have the right to demand Desoxyn, and I wouldn't try this! Here is how I would go about it, and of course, be open to the doctor's suggestions (after all, they have demonstrated professional competence to be practicing):
"I have tried x, y, z, and none of them have a benefit to side effect's ratio. Do you have any experience with other ADHD patient's with a similar problem, and how one might minimize side effects?... Desoxyn might be helpful. There is a lot of stigma surround it. It is dextromethamphetamine, but it is indicated for ADHD treatment by the FDA, like the other ADHD medication. Do you have any experience treating patients with it?... Do you think this is an option, even considering the abuse potential?..."

All the while you should be interested in the conversation. Maybe they might even have a better suggestion, like adding Guanfacine to your treatment, or a totally different perspective that might prove to be much more helpful then desoxyn. Being interested will do wonders for your credibility I'm sure, and it'll help you come off as being intelligent and not some a** wanting to abuse drugs. My thinking would be, "well if you've got a better idea, what is it? I'm curious..."

And bring the Desoxyn prescribing information, or tell them they can find it on the internet.

It would help to come off as:
-Intelligent
-Goal oriented, i.e., wanting to succeed at school
-Serious about this (not in any way joking about it!).
-Not desperate, but inquisitive
-In no way disagreeable or undermining their professional competence like you "know exactly what the right treatment is" because you don't.
-On the contrary, agreeable but persuasive. Again your goal is to have them advise you to take desoxyn.
-Concerned and objective about any issues they should bring up like desoxyn potency and abuse potential
-Perhaps having a very good understanding on desoxyn pharmacodynamics

And of course, if they look at you like you are crazy or some druggie all things considered, then on to another doctor.

Hope that helps. Good luck.

xmikef
10-12-08, 05:41 PM
I agree with you again Mystery, I've been open to her suggestions because I'm not a professional at this stuff and she supposedly is. I know that the stuff you read in forums on the internet can be total bull. I definitely let her know that I just care about getting through school and I'll do whatever it takes to do it, I don't care if its Desoxyn or grapejuice. So when she suggests Concerta even though Ritalin was terrible, I thought "she's the pro, maybe there's something to this".

I was taking 2.5mg 3/day-dexedrine for depression before starting school this fall, and the side effects were significantly less. This didn't help me study though, and I had to increase the dose to 10mg 2/day to help study. Unfortunately this is when I felt like a zombie with a panic disorder.

I pretty much already do all of your suggestions with maybe the exception of not being desperate- lol.

Have you tried Guanfacine?

mystery
10-12-08, 05:48 PM
Have you tried Guanfacine?

Not yet, but I'd like to see how it factors in to my existing treatment.

meadd823
10-12-08, 07:11 PM
As far as effect on neurotransmitters is concerned, I would go as far as to say, the difference among ritalin, adderall, and dexedrine is LESS than that between desoxyn and any of the first three.

desoxyn is a smooth drug - sort of like adderall but not quiet - it is also very abusable especially when you talk the over 35 crowd who know what it is. Doctors who are older may remember it as an abusable drug for weight loss

Desoxyn isn't prescribed as much as Ritalin and adderall like drugs are for ADD. Trying to get a doctor to prescribe a specific drug for your ADD may send off warning alarms. . .

I am as ADD as the next gal but too many people abuse these drugs and doctors know it so I do not blame them for hesitating when some one goes to them wanting a specific drug and becomes all annoyed if some thing else is recommended.

Honestly this wanting a specific drug is considered drug seeking behavior The problem is most drug seeking is for the wrong reasons and done by drug abusers. Your doc hesitates for the same reasons I have to clarify I am not being judgmental you are seeking a specific drug because you know what doesn't work


Unfortunately people who just happen to be educated about medications to treat their conditions are not nearly as common as people seeking to obtain a script for a certain drug so they can use the drug for reasons other than ADD control. . . .


Yes you have a right to be treated with medications that work but your doctor has a right to be judicious as to what he/she prescribes His/Her medical license is at stake. . . .

Call the doc what you will but the behavior is because to many docs have been burned buy recreational drug users and people in college wanting to use the medications stay up and cram

The bottom line for the medical professional you can find another doctor a hell of a lot easier than your doctor can find another medical license.


Perhaps having a very good understanding on desoxyn pharmacodynamics

desoxyn (http://www.drugs.com/pro/desoxyn.html)

another perspective (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/People/injury/research/job185drugs/methamphetamine.htm)

Therapeutic doses of Desoxyn® are 2.5-10 mg daily, with dosing not exceed 60 mg/day. To treat narcolepsy, 5-60 mg/day of amphetamine is ingested in divided doses; and in ADD and ADHD doses of 2.5-10 mg/day is administered, depending on age.{End Quote}

xmikef
10-13-08, 04:21 PM
I definitely see the point- that doctors are cautious for good reason.

I wish there was a test that doctors could give to determine who is out there to abuse their prescriptions, and who is out there just to find a solution to their problems! That way those of us who just want to find a solution to our problems could explore the options freely.

mystery
10-14-08, 12:01 AM
I know what you mean. It is frustrating. But, I think we are even lucky to have the possibility to get Desoxyn in the USA. I don't think it is prescribed in Canada for instance.

In a way the whole system is a test. It is necessary in many ways. Just think of all of the things you can do to move closer to trying Desoxyn (legitimately of course). And having the determination and patience to do so might be the way to pass the test.

meadd823
10-14-08, 12:11 AM
I wish there was a test that doctors could give to determine who is out there to abuse their prescriptions, and who is out there just to find a solution to their problems! That way those of us who just want to find a solution to our problems could explore the options freely.

I couldn't agree with you more on this one !


And having the determination and patience to do so might be the way to pass the test

Patience is not an ADD trait not for this ADDer any way!

MECMR
10-14-08, 01:05 AM
Excellent thread. There are many good points on here.

A patient has every right to know about the meds they take, choose to take them OR refuse them...and ALSO has the right to ask questions about specific medications and request them. The doctor does not ahve to give the requested medications. The doctor should be able to explain EXACTLY WHY they will not prescribe the med. "I don't like it" is not a valid answer. (I always have to bite back the retort "Ummm....because the pill color clashes with your sofa, or because it gave you gas when you took it?")

Doctors are extremely cautious about what they prescribe, especially if it has potential to be addictive. And yes, sadly, requesting a certain drug can be seen as drug-seeking behavior.

Unfortunately, there is another point that can come up for doctors: the power trip. Doctors like questions, but they do not like being questioned. If a doctor says to a patient "I will not give you this med because it will do this this and this to you, which would not help the issue, and make X condition of yours much worse" and the patient says "But I want to try it, my friend says it is really good...how do you know it will do that to ME?" the doc gets mad and shuts down.

To SOME doctors, ANY question is questioning them as a professional, and they shut down. In my opinion, those doctors need to go back for remedial courses in....something! I have heard psychiatrists refuse to increase a medication to help a schizophrenic because "they should know they ahve to live with some discomfort." I heard one try to talk a patient into staying on a med that was causing horrible side effects "because all of my other patients take it and deal with this same thing." And the ever popular response "Because I have the degree, that's why!"

If your doctor is doing the above, get out now. If there is any chance your doctor is not hearing you because you are not hearing them, then try again. You can only control yourself, so trying to fight them on it may be futile. However, if you go in asking questions and open to hearing from the doctor, it can really open up communication.

I have an article I use at work that has helped a lot of my clients tremendously. I posted it on a thread here once, but I don't know if it got a lot of reading. Here is a link to the thread: http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56666 (Article is listed at the bottom.)

I apologize if I sound as though I am judging anyone here in the way they approach this, I am not and do not mean to. I have just come to realize that there are things we as patients can do in order to help maximize the effectiveness of meetings with doctors. If I try the things listed in there, or if one of my clients does, and the doc crosses their arms across their chest and clamps down, I start hunting for another doc right away.

Good luck to you!

Grey Kameleon
10-16-08, 08:49 PM
And yes, sadly, requesting a certain drug can be seen as drug-seeking behavior.

Which is exactly the kind of behavior you should exhibit when seeking drugs: drug-seeking behavior. Without drug-seeking behavior, no one would ever get these drugs, and many of us would probably be high school drop-outs.

There's no nice way of saying it. Your doctor is uncooperative. To award a medical degree to a mental health provider who doesn't even know about methamphetamine is more irresponsible than this woman could possibly be in prescribing it to you. Spreading drug-hysteria over Dexedrine, getting her 'pet drug' methylphenidate off the hook (which is just as much 'speed' as dex), and then accusing you of abusing medication is power-tripping. I don't know what words she used, but don't take the kind of crap that makes people like us settle for Kidalin instead of the medication we need.

JUST SAY NO to drug hysteria. Some random students selling their prescriptions is not an excuse to be uncooperative. Amphetamine and methylphyenidate are Schedule II substances, therefore there are already laws and precautions in place. It's not the doctor's place to witch-hunt you.

meadd823
10-16-08, 09:33 PM
I have an article I use at work that has helped a lot of my clients tremendously. I posted it on a thread here once, but I don't know if it got a lot of reading. Here is a link to the thread: http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56666 (Article is listed at the bottom.)

Heck let me save some clicking okay

Reclaiming your power during medication appointments with your psychiatrist (http://www.power2u.org/articles/selfhelp/reclaim.html)

Strategy #1: Learn to think differently about medication

There are no magic bullets.

Medications are only a tool.

Using medications is not a moral issue

Learn to use medications.

Always use medications and coping strategies.

Learn about medications


Strategy #2: Learn to think differently about yourself

Trust yourself

It's your recovery.

Your questions are important.


Strategy #3: Think differently about psychiatrists

{End out line of article = you will just have to click over there to read the whole thing }


JUST SAY NO to drug hysteria

I am the last person to have drug hysteria - I spend a decent percentage of my time here countering it however if I want some one , in this case my psychiatrist , to try to see things from my point of view it is only logical I make the first move by seeing things from his/hers.

Drug seeking inappropriately will more than likely get you what you are asking for but it is doubtful get you what you want - In post four I hyperlinked to a perfect example of why so many doctors are hesitant to prescribe controlled substances.

{To prevent any from having to scroll up and look for it I will repeat the hyperlink in a second}

They don't want to be the cause of some one becoming addicted as this post (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58283) describes extremely well.

Grey Kameleon
10-16-08, 09:43 PM
Using medications is not a moral issue

I waited to answer this question until I asked myself this question: "Is having a 2.6 GPA, when I could have a 3.6 GPA, a moral issue?"

EDIT: I re-read the OP, then realized the one who called Dexedrine 'speed' was a different person. Oops.

mystery
10-16-08, 11:41 PM
Thanks Grey for your logical post. It makes me feel better because I will set out to seek Desoxyn sometime. I don't know if there are any laws in place about this, but I may have multiple appointments with doctors scheduled and just go through them one at a time. I will likely have to go through a few doctors.

But I'm not going to feel guilty about it. You've conveyed the common sense reasoning to undertake this. I may spend another month trying Adderall first, since I've tried Dexedrine, and Focalin already. But after that, my goal is clear.

MECMR, you made some great points. We can request medication, and we can refuse certain medication. Great link on reclaiming our power during meetings with doctors!

Some things I think one could say to a doctor in a calm, cool, and passive way in a low voice, and talking semi-slowly. Would be best feeling a genuine sense of modestly so this comes out. The idea is to not cause offense, and display little emotion. These are some conversational tools I can think of. This mainly applies to a highly stigmatized med like Desoxyn:

-eye contact while starting to say this, but immediately break off and look down, "I disagree Dr." pause, appear in intense thought, and slowly raise eyes to contact while talking "because x", only present evidence and logic!
-Slightly shake head, start with eye contact, break, then re-establish "I don't see any potential in x, because a, b, c" Reference only evidence, no opinion. break eye contact again.
-Emphasize tried very slightly but noticeably, be sure to say this semi-slowly: "I've tried that option" pause break eye contact, slowly re-establish while saying: "and it did not work" appear in intense thought.
-In response to poor explanation for not wanting to prescribe x, tilt head slightly down raise eyebrows and inquire: "but x is indicated for y treatment by the FDA?" This opens up the potential for further recourse, and thwarts their attempt to simply close the matter.
-Shake head slightly, start with eye contact and look down "I have umm" pause, appear in intense thought "I have no choice but to refuse that option Dr. because x", leave opinion out. Reference evidence and logic only, again no emotion displayed, and minimal body language.
-"Are there any other reason's you do not consider x an option?"...touch chin in a curious manner, and look them in the eyes, intensely interested in their response, "So it is purely the abuse potential?"..." Ok I just wanted to understand, that's all, because I feel that this option is worth further consideration, given my few remaining options that have demonstrated efficacy for treatment."

Grey Kameleon
10-17-08, 12:04 PM
These are some conversational tools I can think of.

Wow, you have this whole thing figured out.

I can understand doctors refusing prescriptions, but when a doctor accuses or even implies that you're just wanting to get high, when it's perfectly okay to go in with a request for a very specific SSRI or any drug type other than amphetamine, they are insulting you and breaking your trust, but also insulting the doctor who diagnosed you. Just make sure Ritalin has been mentioned first before skipping to methamphetamine.

Contrapunctus
10-17-08, 06:56 PM
Mystery, you should be hesitant before going into the pharmacodynamics of methamphetamine with your physician! People seem to have this misconception that their physicians have extensive knowledge on drug dynamics/kinetics, chemistry and so on (on the MCATs they only test up to organic chem I, which is absurd!). The test is way too easy in my opinion, but I digress...

Medical school is surprisingly lacking in terms of pharmacology training, which is fine for most branches of medicine, but for fields like psychiatry, it is more important! It is rare enough to come across a physician who knows the basic info in the PDR, let alone anything beyond that. My point is, don't go discussing ratios of catecholamine release between the amphetamines and etc, it will only make them suspicious. Plus, because they won't understand what you are talking about, they may end up feeling insulted, and ultimately, not too happy...


. I don't know if there are any laws in place about this, but I may have multiple appointments with doctors scheduled and just go through them one at a time. I will likely have to go through a few doctors.

There is no federal law against this, but I think that the state could theoretically get involved (i think Rush Limbaugh was charged with doctor shopping, but he reached a settlement). For this reason, you need to avoid red-flagging yourself by not asking for Desoxyn specifically, at least not during an initial consultation.

Simply list off all the drugs you have tried, and why they didn't work. Tell them that d-amphetamine worked well, but had too many side-effects. Hopefully you will eventually find a physician who will make the connection and prescribe the ADHD drug that is the most "centrally acting"...

I know I am going to get some **** for this, but from numerous accounts, I have heard that women psychiatrists are more "suspicious" than their male counterparts, and as a result may be less likely to prescribe highly stigmatized drugs. Perhaps this is because female physicians have had to put up with more "crap" (school, residency etc) and so they may mistakenly feel that someone is trying "pull one over" on them, who knows....

Note: I didn't have time to proof read this...

mystery
10-19-08, 12:14 AM
Thanks for those important points Contrapunctus. I guess, rather than a shot in the dark, I need to proceed with more knowledge. Some things I am unsure of:
-I'm going to assume that an official diagnosis is needed if being treated by a GP, especially one who doesn't know me well
-After getting the diagnosis, would it be more likely that a psychiatrist would "make the connection," or perhaps a GP would be open to some suggestion, and be less experienced in ADHD treatment and may have more of an open mind?

In doctor selection I'm thinking that an older male doctor may be best who might be more nonchalant. In fact, a doctor close to retirement would be perfect albeit, not optimal for long-term treatment. It is possible that an older doctor may have experience with it or at least know of the therapeutic value of Desoxyn. And they may be more open to suggestion.

Any ideas that I should consider in doctor selection?

Contrapunctus
10-21-08, 06:01 PM
Your idea is a good one. An older male doctor (in his early-mid sixties) who is comfortable in their practice of psychiatry would be most likely to prescribe the desoxyn. Younger doctors have either never heard of desoxyn, or are not comfortable enough in their practice of medicine to prescribe such a medication. There is little chance of a GP prescribing the drug,

An older neurologist may also be open to the idea of prescribing desoxyn.

It's a shame that the drug with the lowest incidence of side-effects/highest efficacy is only rarely prescribed, which is almost entirely a result of fear/ignorance...

My physician is in his early sixities, but he was the one who suggested Desoxyn as I had never considered it (assuming that no doctor would still prescribe it)...

amu_d
10-21-08, 06:32 PM
I do feel ADHDers (especially those with no abuse history) have every right to get a chance to try desoxyn legally and stay on it for as long as necessary for their condition.

Mr Countryboy
10-24-08, 06:13 PM
I feel the same way that you do about desoxyn. Is it impoossible for a person to get desoxyn now even with a legal doctor's perscription?

pbsc7
10-24-08, 06:21 PM
I feel the same way that you do about desoxyn. Is it impoossible for a person to get desoxyn now even with a legal doctor's perscription?

Desoxyn - like all stimulants used to treat AD/HD - is legal and obtainable with a prescription. It's quite expensive according to everything I've read on this forum, and some doctors are more willing to prescribe it than others.

Mr Countryboy
10-24-08, 06:41 PM
Is desoxyn available in all states. I have heard that California is the only state where desoxyn is available. What have you heard or know?

Contrapunctus
10-25-08, 05:35 PM
Desoxyn is legal in all 50 states.

You will probably find that these drugs are more likely to be prescribed on the coasts...

mystery
10-28-08, 12:12 AM
It's a shame that the drug with the lowest incidence of side-effects/highest efficacy is only rarely prescribed, which is almost entirely a result of fear/ignorance...


There is real abuse potential. Imagine legitimate people going in to get ADHD treatment, getting desoxyn, sharing it with friends. The next thing you know, everyone's going in to get an ADHD diagnosis, and then forgoing getting prescriptions and just buying large amounts off the streets. Then their dopamine systems are shot and they are completely dependent on the drug, so the government steps in and pulls Desoxyn from the market. I'm not somehow exempt from abuse, and to be honest I can't clearly define the conditions that should make me less prone to abuse. If there was something that gave me power or just the perception of it, then how can I be sure that I wouldn't be blinded by it and controlled by it?

I think the system is good exactly how it is now, and it is probably very important that Desoxyn is difficult to get. That's fine by me; I just need to figure out what I need to do to get it. I want to have a better life, and I know that there are always going to be some tough obstacles. Sometimes the most difficult can be really the only ones worthwhile, but of course even if that isn't the case then I have to know.

Contrapunctus
10-28-08, 04:33 PM
The problem is: at the lower dosages, methamphetamine is really not much more abusable than dexedrine/adderall.

In fact, I would go as far as to say that Adderall/dexedrine provides a stronger "buzz" and certainly a far more profound feeling of wakefulness than d-methamphetamine (when dosed under 20mg).

There is an article about norepinephrine and stimulant addiction that I should post when I get home...

ADHDNEWB
10-28-08, 05:07 PM
Just like at your job you may dislike your boss undermining your experience and requiring you to do something a specific way, instead of just saying "do this" and leaving it to your discretion.

Kinda of contradicting yourself there. Your boss pays you to do a job, this guy is paying the doc to do a job - right? But I do understand what you mean about insisting on a medication.

:cool:

ikgbixcal
10-29-08, 03:21 PM
i think i have the worst psychiatrist ever. he doesnt listin to a word i say. its like this i tell him the klonopin .5 isnt working but he gives it to me anyways. wtf lol. but yea im there with you. adderall isnt working and ive tried the others so all that is left is 2 meds dexadrine or Desoxyn