View Full Version : phosphatidylserine


ethanol
02-02-09, 01:19 AM
Worth the try?

steven d
02-02-09, 08:53 AM
Let me share my own experience with phosphatidyl serine.

I have ADD (without hyperactivity) and I have the strange thing that I do not like to sit in a cafetaria for example doing completely nothing or I feel incredibly bored. Having conversations is difficult too because I always drift away. I cannot possibly have a conversation with 1 person for longer then 1 minute. I also dislike sitting in a restaurant, because after we finished dinner, we just sit there doing nothing. I feel that 100 thoughts are racing throught my brain. I'm always busy in my head thinking about everything.

When I first tried it after taking 3-4 weeks of Omega 3, I suddenly felt so relaxed that for the first time I would be able to sit in a cafetaria for longer periods. Suddenly I felt soo relaxed (no 100 thoughts). It felt like I moved from Hong Kong city (very busy city) to an uninhabited island (with only me living there and no-one else). That was the major thing I noticed.

I have to admit thought, that right now I use another brand of phophatidyl serine (from springfield) and it does not work as consistent and so good anymore as when I first tried it. I'll try Nature's way phosphatidyl serine in a few days.

I also noticed that my reading ability increased.

So it's certainly worth a try I think.

Before PS:

http://nature.wallpaperme.com/1697-2/City+of+Life_+Hong+Kong_+China.jpg

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/3995/96368737we7.png


After PS:




http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PTGPOD/499096~Uninhabited-Tropical-Island-Ari-Atoll-Maldives-Posters.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3072/2872269167_8ba8d15991.jpg

http://www.maldivesonlineguide.com/wp-content/resorts/HolidayIsland/holiday.jpg

Captain Obvious
02-02-09, 12:31 PM
PS is a POTENT cortisol blocker. That's what gives you the relaxation/mood enhancement effects. I can agree with your pictoral analogy. The same thing happens to me when I take 75-100mg of 7-keto (also a cortisol blocker).

The problem with cortisol blockers is that they lower your energy and make your stimulant meds less effective. So it would be unwise to take phosphatidylserine, say, at work, because then you'd become lazy and have a harder time concentrating. It's best saved for the evenings, maybe for doing homework or something of that nature.

It also depends on your personality. If you're the kind of person who's wound tightly and hyperactive, then you might benefit from it. It might calm you down and enhance your focus.

But if you're like me, slow to think, move, and act, then it's best to stay away from it, cause it will just make your current symptoms worse. I prefer things that raise cortisol, such as stims, cause they help me stay alert and active.

bookwurm2
02-02-09, 12:32 PM
Phosphatidylserine seems to work well for some people and not work at all for others. That said, it works very well for me.

The quality of different PS brands varies. Only two brands worked well for me: Natures Way and GNC PS. I use Natures Way because it is less expensive then the GNC, but both of these brands are relatively expensive. I tried a number of less expensive brands and they didn't work very well or not at all. I ended up returning most of them.

There seems to be a synergistic effect between omega-3s and PS. From what some of us have seen, we suspect that people are more likely to see a benefit from PS if they take high dose fish oil for several weeks first.

There is a small forum on PS and ADHD here:
http://www.phpbbcity.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=5&sid=3731f5cdf59ffc99f7f5c00c1c15f837&mforum=psforadhd

bookwurm2
02-02-09, 12:41 PM
"The problem with cortisol blockers is that they lower your energy and make your stimulant meds less effective. So it would be unwise to take phosphatidylserine, say, at work, because then you'd become lazy and have a harder time concentrating. It's best saved for the evenings, maybe for doing homework or something of that nature."

I am aware of PS's cortisol blocking effect, but I doubt that is the primary mechanism by which is is effective. See the study below. In me, PS increases my level fo energy and makes it much easier for me to concentrate. It makes me feel more optimistic and less depressive.

I don't know if it reduces the effect of stimulants, but if it does I don't care, because with PS I don't need stimulants anymore. I am not anti-stimulant and believe that the stimulants (ritalin, adderall, etc.) are probably the best remedy for most peopole. Before using PS, I was using ritalin and it worked well for me. I had tried most of the different ADHD drugs and ritlain worked the best. But I stopped taking ritalin because PS works much better for me.

This is the study I mentioned:


-----

Effect of phosphatidylserine administration on symptoms of Attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder in children
S. HIRAYAMA1*,Y. MASUDA2,R. RABELER3

PURPOSE

To clarify whether the administration of phosphatidylserine
("PS") can improve the attention-deficit ("AD") and
hyperactivity disorder ("HD") symptoms in children. with
AD/HD.

STUDY DESIGN AND SUBJECTS

A pilot study in 15 AD/HD children 6 to 12 years old (including
6 suspected to have AD/HD) who had rarely received
medication before. These 15 children took 200 mg/day of PS
in a capsule every day for 2 months. The following items were
investigated at the start of study ("pre-study") and upon
completion of study ("post-study): 1) AD/HD symptoms
(inattention/hyperactivity and impulsiveness) based on DSMIV
diagnostic criteria, 2) learning disorders (hearing, speaking,
reading, writing, calculation, inference) based on learning
disorders ("LD") check list, 3) visual perception (figure
background perception task to find a prescribed form in the
sheet), 4) visual and auditory short-term memory and 5)
continuous performance test ("CPT").

RESULTS

After the intervention, (1) AD/HD symptoms were significantly
improved (p<0.01). Significant improvement was observed
both in the inattention and hyperactivity and impulsiveness
(p<0.01 and p<0.05 respectively) (3) visual perception was
also significantly improved (p<0.001). A tendency towards an
improvement was observed in (2) LD and (5) CPT (9 only
error) (p<0.10). However, no significant difference was
observed with regard to visual and auditory short-term
memory (4).

CONCLUSION

PS was shown to improve AD/HD symptoms as demonstrated
by the results of DSM-IV diagnostic criteria, visual perception
test, learning disorder checklist, and CPT. Further studies
using larger sample sizes are required to confirm the
significant beneficial results of PS on AD/HD of this pilot trial.



Full text is available for free here: http://www.lipamin-ps.com/ftp/agro_16_20.pdf

Some excerpts:

Phosphatidylserine (PS) is a naturally occurring phospholipid
present in all biological membranes of animals, higher plants
and micro organisms. In humans, PS is most concentrated in
the brain where it comprises up to 15 percent of the total
phospholipid pool. PS plays an important role in the
functioning of neuronal membranes, e.g., maintenance of the
neuron's internal environment, secretory vesicle release,
signal transduction, cell-to-cell communication, and cell
growth regulation (7-10).

Thus, it is not surprising that this phospholipid is considered
to be an important brain nutrient (11). Numerous studies in
animals and humans have documented effects of PS on
specific neurotransmitter systems, including brain
acetylcholine (12), norepinephrine, serotonin (13), and
dopamine (14). These data indicate that PS has an effect on
neurotransmitter systems that may play a role in cognitive
functions. Clinical studies indeed have provided significant
evidence that the central effects of an oral PS treatment have
beneficial effects on cognitive functions (for a review see (15)
and (16)). The only evidence available indicating that PS
could serve as a supplementary and substitution treatment
for AD/HD comes from a preliminary study carried out by the
renowned American paediatrician Carol Ann Ryser (17). In a
physician in-office study of 21 consecutive ADHD cases aged
4-19, dietary supplementation with PS benefited greater than
90 percent of these cases. At intakes of 200-300 mg/day of
PS for up to four months, attention and learning were most
consistently improved. However, this research has not been
prepared into a formal thesis.

...

...it should be mentioned that phosphatidylserine (PS) is
present in the brain at a much higher concentration than in
other organs. It is an important component of cell membrane in
the synapse of nerve cells and is deeply involved in the
loculation that leads to the production and release of
neurotransmitters and the activities mediated by the receptors
in specific synaptic cleft. PS was shown to activate the brain,
when taken as a supplement (25). PS facilitates synaptic
connectivity parts, and especially improves dopamine
transmission. In other words, it is beneficial for the production
and release of dopamine as well as the excitation of receptors
in the posterior synapse (26). A similar view was presented by
Blokland et al. (27) and Crook et al. PS is reported to
play an important role in the maintenance of intracellular
environment, neurotransmission, release from loculi, and
communication between the cells. It is also an important
component of cell membrane in the adjustment of cell growth.
In general, PS is suggested to stimulate the dopaminergic
system in the hypothalamus (29, 29), and to stimulate
dopamine-sensitive adenylate cyclase (30). It is also reported
that PS increases acetylcholine, noradrenalin, serotonin and
dopamine in animal models and patients with Alzheimer
disease (12-14, 31-35). These reports indicate that PS is
involved in the regeneration of cell membrane and adjustment
of neurotransmitters (mainly dopamine) in synaptic cleft.

Thus, it is useful in the reconstruction of nerve network whose
function has been disturbed. It is well known that central
stimulants such as methylphenidate hydrochloride are effective
in AD/HD. The major action mechanism of central stimulants
may be described as the activation of noradrenalin system in
the brain (36) that adjusts higher cerebral function including
attentiveness by freeing (releasing) noradrenalin from the
sympathetic nerve terminal and chrome-affinitive cells.
There is a research that reports on the relation of not only
noradrenalin but also dopamine to central stimulants. By
interfering with the reuptake of these neurotransmitters from
the synaptic cleft, stimulants effectively increase the respective
signal intensity and duration (39-41). Huijbregts et al. (42)
pointed out that intensive research based on the hypothesis of
dopamine insufficiency in AD/HD is in progress at present. The
improvement of AD/HD symptoms in the present trial might
suggest that a PS administration is therapeutically effective in
increasing the dopamine or noradrenalin concentration in the
synaptic cleft even though the mechanism of inhibiting the reuptake
seemed different from that of central stimulants.

...

Considering these results, PS seems to be
more effective against carelessness rather than against
hyperactivity and impulsiveness.

Captain Obvious
02-02-09, 01:42 PM
Interesting read. I was well aware that it was a cognitive enhancer (not just a cortisol blocker) but I wasn't sure of the exact means by which it enhanced cognition.

I've never tried it, so I can't comment on its effectiveness. All I know is, with ADHD-I and "sluggish cognitive tempo" my brain feels kind of like that deserted island all the time. I need to speed it up, make it more like those big city pictures.

I might try it sometime, if I have the money. It's quite expensive, though, from what I've seen.

steven d
02-02-09, 02:04 PM
PS is a POTENT cortisol blocker. That's what gives you the relaxation/mood enhancement effects. I can agree with your pictoral analogy. The same thing happens to me when I take 75-100mg of 7-keto (also a cortisol blocker).


Noooooooo, because I used PS without using omega 3, but it had no effects at all. Omega 3 is used to anchor the PS molecules in brain cells. The omega 3 molecules go in the brain cell membrane and the PS molecules sit on top of it. (It's advanced medicine)

PS is also used on people suffering dementia and I never heard of 60 year old woman completely changing in zombies.

Also, if PS is a cortisol blocker I would expect it to induce side effects at high dosages. PS never induced any side effects, even if I took 1000 mg a day.

Does a cortisol blocker improve reading ability?

PS is also a nutrient (it comes from fish) and it is even made by the human body.


I've never tried it, so I can't comment on its effectiveness. All I know is, with ADHD-I and "sluggish cognitive tempo" my brain feels kind of like that deserted island all the time. I need to speed it up, make it more like those big city pictures.

I think like that too, but strangely I felt it was different when I took PS.

Captain Obvious
02-02-09, 02:24 PM
Noooooooo, because I used PS without using omega 3, but it had no effects at all. Omega 3 is used to anchor the PS molecules in brain cells. The omega 3 molecules go in the brain cell membrane and the PS molecules sit on top of it. (It's advanced medicine)

PS is also used on people suffering dementia and I never heard of 60 year old woman completely changing in zombies.

Also, if PS is a cortisol blocker I would expect it to induce side effects at high dosages. PS never induced any side effects, even if I took 1000 mg a day.

Does a cortisol blocker improve reading ability?



I think like that too, but strangely I felt it was different when I took PS.

Um... Ya rly. It does.


<dl class="AbstractPlusReport"><dt class="head">1: J Int Soc Sports Nutr. (javascript:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'J%20Int%20So c%20Sports%20Nutr.');) 2008 Jul 28;5:11.[/URL]
</dt><dd class="abstract"> The effects of phosphatidylserine on endocrine response to moderate intensity exercise.

<!--AuthorList-->[URL="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Starks%20MA%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus"]Starks MA (javascript:PopUpMenu2_Set(Menu18662395);), Starks SL (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Starks%20SL%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Kingsley M (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Kingsley%20M%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Purpura M (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Purpura%20M%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Jäger R (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22J%C3%A4ger%20R%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus).
Increnovo LLC, 2138 E Lafayette Pl, Milwaukee, WI 53202, USA. ralf.jaeger@increnovo.com.
</dd><dd class="abstract">

ABSTRACT: BACKGROUND: Previous research has indicated that phosphatidylserine (PS) supplementation has the potential to attenuate the serum cortisol response to acute exercise stress. Equivocal findings suggest that this effect might be dose dependent. This study aimed to examine the influence of short-term supplementation with a moderate dose of PS (600 mg per day) on plasma concentrations of cortisol, lactate, growth hormone and testosterone before, during, and following moderate intensity exercise in healthy males. METHODS: 10 healthy male subjects participated in the study. Each subject was assigned to ingest 600 mg PS or placebo per day for 10 days using a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover design. Serial venous blood samples were taken at rest, after a 15 minute moderate intensity exercise protocol on a cycle ergometer that consisted of five 3-minute incremental stages beginning at 65% and ending at 85% VO2 max, and during a 65 minute passive recovery. Plasma samples were assessed for cortisol, growth hormone, testosterone, lactate and testosterone to cortisol ratio for treatment (PS or placebo). RESULTS: Mean peak cortisol concentrations and area under the curve (AUC) were lower following PS (39 +/- 1% and 35 +/- 0%, respectively) when compared to placebo (p < 0.05). PS increased AUC for testosterone to cortisol ratio (184 +/- 5%) when compared to placebo (p < 0.05). PS and placebo supplementation had no effect on lactate or growth hormone levels. CONCLUSION: The findings suggest that PS is an effective supplement for combating exercise-induced stress and preventing the physiological deterioration that can accompany too much exercise. PS supplementation promotes a desired hormonal status for athletes by blunting increases in cortisol levels.
PMID: 18662395
</dd></dl>

But PS does a lot of other things besides blocking cortisol, so perhaps these other effects are powerful enough to increase cognitive function even though it decreases cortisol.

As a side note, excess cortisol has been linked to cognitive impairment, so I'm not saying that cortisol is necessarily all good. Perhaps PS works best on those who have excess cortisol.

steven d
02-02-09, 03:34 PM
Please read this article, it explains that phosphatidyl serine can certain improve brain functions:

http://www.springboard4health.com/books_online/ps/phosphatidylserine.html

stillfightin
02-02-09, 08:19 PM
It's currently in the product that I'm taking, but I can't pin point that certain ingredient is helping with my mood. It's probably the combination.

ethanol
02-06-09, 04:33 AM
Please read this article, it explains that phosphatidyl serine can certain improve brain functions:

http://www.springboard4health.com/books_online/ps/phosphatidylserine.html

This article states it effectiveness for people who are losing mental function due to age. Nothing about ADD/ADHD.

bookwurm2
02-06-09, 12:37 PM
There has been very little published research specifically on using phosphatidylserine for ADHD. But see the study I posted above.

steven d
02-11-09, 02:02 PM
When I first tried it after taking 3-4 weeks of Omega 3, I suddenly felt so relaxed that for the first time I would be able to sit in a cafetaria for longer periods. Suddenly I felt soo relaxed (no 100 thoughts). It felt like I moved from Hong Kong city (very busy city) to an uninhabited island (with only me living there and no-one else). That was the major thing I noticed.

I felt like I drank some strong coffee and had nothing on my mind.

Captain Obvious
02-22-09, 06:57 PM
I will have to say, now that I have tried phosphatidylserine, it is quite wonderful.

However, I will have to say that it's not a good idea to take it when you're feeling tired/sleepy, as it can just make it worse. At least for me. Since it lowers cortisol, and being sleepy usually means you're in the middle of a cortisol dip, then it will just make that dip lower, and you won't feel the effects of it nearly as well.

But, when you're already awake and alert, or even better, stressed out, it has a very profound effect, especially when you're feeling stressed out. I wouldn't exactly say it changes from a big city to a calm beach, but it's more like it changes from a traffic jam to smoothly flowing traffic.

bookwurm2
02-22-09, 07:54 PM
Captain Obvious, I"m glad to hear that it works for you. I think it only works well for a minority of those who try it. W

hat brand did you try?

My experience with phosphatidylserine (in the Natures Way complex which also contains phosphatidylethanolamine and phosphaidylcholine) is that it made it easier for me to fall asleep on time. However my sleep was lighter and I was much more alert then normal when I woke up in the morning (or if I woke up in the middle of the night.) In fact, the first several weeks that I took it, I would sometimes wake up in the middle of the night feeling awake and alert and have trouble going back to sleep--but this went away.

Before I took PS, I suffered from DPSD--I had trouble going to sleep on time and then trouble waking up on time. And after waking up I was "half asleep" for a couple of hours or so. With the PS, this is no longer a problem.

Captain Obvious
02-23-09, 12:44 AM
Captain Obvious, I"m glad to hear that it works for you. I think it only works well for a minority of those who try it.

Where did you hear that? I've heard lots of reports of positive effects from it, on this and other boards

What brand did you try?

My experience with phosphatidylserine (in the Natures Way complex which also contains phosphatidylethanolamine and phosphaidylcholine) is that it made it easier for me to fall asleep on time. However my sleep was lighter and I was much more alert then normal when I woke up in the morning (or if I woke up in the middle of the night.) In fact, the first several weeks that I took it, I would sometimes wake up in the middle of the night feeling awake and alert and have trouble going back to sleep--but this went away.

Before I took PS, I suffered from DPSD--I had trouble going to sleep on time and then trouble waking up on time. And after waking up I was "half asleep" for a couple of hours or so. With the PS, this is no longer a problem.

I currently have the Nature's Bounty version from Walgreens.

Interesting about the sleep thing. I've never heard that before.

I don't know what DPSD is, but it sounds like a dysregulated circadian rhythm. You normally have two cortisol spikes during the day. One when you wake up, and one about 12 hours later.

So, if you woke up at 6:00am, your cortisol would spike. And then gradually lower over the next few hours. You can usually notice this effect if you experience the 2:00 drowsies right after lunch. And then you get another kick around 6:00 pm.

This is the reason a lot of people, especially with ADHD-inattentive, are really sluggish throughout the day, but are wide-awake in the evenings.

So, your DPSD (what does that stand for?) was probably either the cause or the result of dysregulation of that cycle.

PS causes a drop in cortisol, as has been said many times in this thread, so that's why it seems to help you go to sleep.

Did you notice anything else besides your sleep habits? Did you feel clearer headed or anything?

Captain Obvious
02-23-09, 12:52 AM
I think a possible reason people might be having a problem getting it to work is cause there's a WIDE range in oral bioavailability from person-to-person with this substance. For some, it's absorbed almost completely from the GI tract, while with others, it gets metabolized by the liver and GI enzymes to such an extent that there are few active molecules left once it gets absorbed. I don't know what these variables/enzymes are, but they're partially responsible for the limited effects in some people.

Also, as alluded to earlier in this thread, people with low levels of Omega-3 fatty acids, specifically DHA, in their diet will respond less to phosphatidylserine.

I take my PS sublingually. It comes in gel caps, and I just chew up the gel caps and let the jellowy-oil come out. I then hold it under my tongue and let it get absorbed for about five minutes, then swallow the rest. It doesn't taste bad at all.

bookwurm2
02-23-09, 01:26 AM
As I've mentioned in other posts, PS works like "miracle drug" for me. It "cured" my ADHD symptoms. Ritalin worked well for me, but PS works much better.

DPSD = Delayed Phase Sleep Disorder. I had that all my life until PS "cured" that too--a very welcome side effect. (I know that PS affects cortisol levels, but after having read a lot about PS and phospholipids I don't think that comes close to explaining the effect. If it was simply a matter of controlling cortisol levels, DPSD and ADHD would be easily treatable. )

The Natures' Bounty PS is "Neuro-PS" and looks like it is the identical product to the Puritan's Pride PS I took (just branded different.) I found that Natures Way PS worked much, much better for me. It has a stronger effect and lasts twice as long.

I think the Natures Way PS works better because it has more of the other phospholipids PC and PE.

Lately, I've been trying a product that has higher levels of PC and PE (but no PS)-NSI Phosphatidylcholine. It is very inexpensive and has worked quite well at letting me focus and making me clear-headed and it lasts much longer then the Natures Way PS, but I don't get the same sense of well-being that I get with the Natures Way PS complex-it leaves me feeling slightly wired and irritated. I'm not sure if this is because the NSI product has a lot of B-6 or doesn't have PS. But I'm looking at other products that have PS while also having a lot of PC and PE.

A few of us started a small forum just on PS here http://www.phpbbcity.com/forum/index.php?mforum=psforadhd Our experience (after recommending it to a lot of people) is that many people, probably most, don't see any benefit. But for some people, it works very well--so if it works for you, consider yourself lucky!

bookwurm2
02-23-09, 01:35 AM
"I think a possible reason people might be having a problem getting it to work is cause there's a WIDE range in oral bioavailability from person-to-person with this substance. For some, it's absorbed almost completely from the GI tract, while with others, it gets metabolized by the liver and GI enzymes to such an extent that there are few active molecules left once it gets absorbed. I don't know what these variables/enzymes are, but they're partially responsible for the limited effects in some people."

That's a possibility, although I'm not aware of any literature on that. Personally, I suspect that ADHD is a number of different conditions manifesting itself through a similar set of symptoms. Dr. Amen makes a good argument for this. I think that one subset of the ADHD population suffers from irregularities in synaptic cell membranes. This kind of condition has been called "phospholipid spectrum disorder." See http://www.phpbbcity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=116&mforum=psforadhd

Others might have ADHD symtoms for different reasons--so injesting phosopholipids does nothing to help them.

For a brief introduction to PS and phospholipids, see http://www.phpbbcity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91&mforum=psforadhd

steven d
02-23-09, 04:38 AM
Is phosphatidyl choline a "cortisol blocker" too? In the other thread I wrote that I now use lecithin. It's a source of phosphatidyl choline mostly and also a minor source of phosphatidyl serine. I use lecithin because it's much cheaper then PS capsules and it contains even more phosphatidyl choline and serine and it appears work even better then PS capsules. If PS makes you sleepy, perhaps you should try PC/ phosphatidyl choline?

Bookwurm, you should try the product without B6. Because I never feel irritated when using lecithin. I feel lecithin works the same as PS.

Also, as alluded to earlier in this thread, people with low levels of Omega-3 fatty acids, specifically DHA, in their diet will respond less to phosphatidylserine.

Right now I don't understand if the product should be taken with DHA or EPA. I sometimes feel the PS does not work well if I didn't take DHA. I feel like I need to take at least 1000 mg DHA a day.

"I think a possible reason people might be having a problem getting it to work is cause there's a WIDE range in oral bioavailability from person-to-person with this substance. For some, it's absorbed almost completely from the GI tract, while with others, it gets metabolized by the liver and GI enzymes to such an extent that there are few active molecules left once it gets absorbed. I don't know what these variables/enzymes are, but they're partially responsible for the limited effects in some people."

Is that the same for EPA fish oil?

Right now I don't understand why I need megadoses of EPA (4000 mg a day), but I think it's due to bioavailability problems. Because I read that EPA is very low bioavailable (especially to the brain).

I told you it works good. I find this PS works better then Ritalin that only made me depressed and sad.

ethanol
02-23-09, 09:06 PM
Is phosphatidyl choline a "cortisol blocker" too? In the other thread I wrote that I now use lecithin. It's a source of phosphatidyl choline mostly and also a minor source of phosphatidyl serine. I use lecithin because it's much cheaper then PS capsules and it contains even more phosphatidyl choline and serine and it appears work even better then PS capsules. If PS makes you sleepy, perhaps you should try PC/ phosphatidyl choline?

Bookwurm, you should try the product without B6. Because I never feel irritated when using lecithin. I feel lecithin works the same as PS.



Right now I don't understand if the product should be taken with DHA or EPA. I sometimes feel the PS does not work well if I didn't take DHA. I feel like I need to take at least 1000 mg DHA a day.



Is that the same for EPA fish oil?

Right now I don't understand why I need megadoses of EPA (4000 mg a day), but I think it's due to bioavailability problems. Because I read that EPA is very low bioavailable (especially to the brain).

I told you it works good. I find this PS works better then Ritalin that only made me depressed and sad.

Thanks for that post. I bought Lecithin for like 5dollars. It contains plenty a PC and PE. You saved me a lot of money. I think some Lecithin even has PS.

TJake
02-24-09, 12:58 PM
I was looking up the ingredients in the 5-Hour energy drink. The first ingredient listed in their "Energy Blend" is Citicoline. Wikipedia lists citicoline as "an intermediate in the generation of phosphatidylcholine from choline." Just thought this was interesting.

stillfightin
02-24-09, 03:21 PM
I was looking up the ingredients in the 5-Hour energy drink. The first ingredient listed in their "Energy Blend" is Citicoline. Wikipedia lists citicoline as "an intermediate in the generation of phosphatidylcholine from choline." Just thought this was interesting.

the product im on has 4 different types of choline in it...
alpha gpc (glycerlphosphorylcholinehydrate)
phosphatidylcholine
choline dihydrogen
choline bitartrate

steven d
02-24-09, 04:24 PM
Thanks for that post. I bought Lecithin for like 5dollars. It contains plenty a PC and PE. You saved me a lot of money. I think some Lecithin even has PS.

No problem. I also know a cheap brand of fish oil. It's the one I use now (NSI omega 3 mood).

steven d
03-01-09, 05:36 PM
Captain Obvious, what is your experience with PS right now? (you can also use pictures if you can't describe it with words - just a joke)

Did you have use EPA fish oil for 1/2 months before taking PS in order for it to work?

Right now I don't understand if the product should be taken with DHA or EPA. I sometimes feel the PS does not work well if I didn't take DHA. I feel like I need to take at least 1000 mg DHA a day.

The strange thing is that the PS I use sometimes does not appear to work unless I took fish oil extracted from herring. (apparantly there is a difference between fish oil extracted from different fish; I just read there is a difference between the DHA/ EPA from krill oil and normal fish oil)

Crackerjack
03-01-09, 07:11 PM
The strange thing is that the PS I use sometimes does not appear to work unless I took fish oil extracted from herring.

Reading all these comments about how PS doesn't work without fish oil has me scratching my head because I've never heard of a link between the two until now. I've taken fish oil with and without PS and haven't noticed any difference in how PS works for me, which is mainly improvement on my short term memory.

bookwurm2
03-02-09, 01:18 AM
We're not talking about using PS to improve memory but to treat ADHD.

A few of us have noticed that people who have already been using fish oil for a while first, have a better chance of finding PS successful.

This could just be a coincidence. However, both fish oil (omega-3s) and phospholipids (such as PS) affect the composition of the cell membrane. Also, there is evidence that a deficiency of omega-3's may result in a deficiency of PS.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/545u6013v6lx34g1/

steven d
03-02-09, 03:55 AM
I've taken fish oil with and without PS and haven't noticed any difference in how PS works for me, which is mainly improvement on my short term memory.

How much fish oil have you taken and how much? And also important: How much EPA : DHA did the fish oil contain and what kind of fish oil did you use?

Because the PS did not do anything for me in the beginning either until I started using a very high dosage (9 gram a day!) 3:2 fish oil extracted from herring for 3-4 weeks. Suddenly I felt PS worked great against ADD symptoms.

But later the effect was slowly lessening probably due to the fact that I used less fish oil (6 gram a day or less).

And now I am using different kinds of fish oil; EPA fish oil and sometimes the fish oil extracted from harring. The effect is very inconsistent. One day it works better and the other day it's bad. Perhaps I have to be patient and wait a few weeks.

Captain Obvious
03-03-09, 12:26 AM
Captain Obvious, what is your experience with PS right now? (you can also use pictures if you can't describe it with words)

:cool::cool::cool:


Did you have use EPA fish oil for 1/2 months before taking PS in order for it to work?


I've been using fish oil for a couple years now prior to this, so I don't really know. All I know is it definitely works for me.

It also works even better if you combine it with a stimulant. Woo! Very good mental clarity and relaxed energy.

steven d
03-03-09, 03:26 AM
It also works even better if you combine it with a stimulant. Woo! Very good mental clarity and relaxed energy.


Isn't that dangerous? Combining drugs/ supplements?

It's good to hear it's working well. My experience with PS is also that it really removes that "brain fog". Here is my previous experience with PS:

I recently switched to the fish oil brand NSI. I now use NSI omega 3 mood (EPA fish oil) with dosages between 3500 mg - 4500 mg EPA a day. I started using NSI just yesterday.

I don't know if it's because of this high dosage or if it's because I switched to NSI, but I feel the PS is starting to work again.

I recently went shopping and felt *I really was there*. Also felt sharper and able to think more clearly.

What do I mean with *I was really there*? Well, I'm usually very mentally foggy and my mind is always drifing on Mars. Today I felt I just landed on Earth.

I feel I am planning more (executive function it's called?). For example whenever I buy something from a shop I don't just buy it, I am actually comparing prices and thinking twice before actually buying the product.

I did that previously too, but now I feel I'm doing it more and feel I am planning more.

I also actually had the motivation to do certain things such as cleaning rubbish.

I also felt that time goes slower.

bookwurm2
03-03-09, 12:20 PM
My doctor told me I could take Ritalin (stimulant) and PS at the same time without risk, but I'd advise anyone to speak to their own doctors first.

steven d
03-03-09, 12:48 PM
Your doctor probably thinks that the PS is some kind of "natural supplement" that does not do much. While in fact it's very potent stuff.

I wouldn't combine PS with stimulants because I think the outcome would be unpredictable. But that's just my opinion.

Captain Obvious
03-05-09, 05:34 AM
I wouldn't combine PS with stimulants because I think the outcome would be unpredictable. But that's just my opinion.

Lol... It's not THAT potent, dude. But I guess I can't chastize you for being overly cautious.

I'm on a very high dose of stims and I have no problems with it whatsoever. Due to the fact that it lowers cortisol, I think it would work wonderfully with stimulants b/c it might mitigate some of the side-effects -- such as anxiety/jitteryness -- while increasing the benefits.

It does for me

Btw, how much lecithin do you take? I have some liquid lecithin and I use it on occasion -- not everyday, just when I need a mental boost. But when I DO use it, I use it in HIGH doses. Like 8-10 grams. The benefits are very noticable at that dosage, with no ill-effects (except, of course, adding a few calories, cause lecithin and all its components are fats... but they're healthy fats).

That + piracetam + normal medication regimen = super mind powers!!!!! The ability to boil eggs with your intent stare... not really, but you feel like you could.

steven d
03-05-09, 06:01 AM
Right now I take about 10-20 granules of lecithin. The problem with me is that probably because I did not use enough EPA fish oil (and long enough), the lecithin works really bad and only for a short time (like 10 minutes or so). I think it doesn't matter how much lecithin I take, the effect is still the same. I think I have to take EPA fish oil for a longer time for the lecithin to work well. Remember: without EPA fish oil the lecithin DOES NOT APPEAR TO WORK AT ALL.

I got the feeling that it doesn't matter how much lecithin I take, the EPA fish oil is the limiting factor.

Perhaps you should try to use more EPA fish oil instead of using megadoses of lecithin. But remember: Fish oil takes a long time to work. Maybe even a half year.

steven d
03-05-09, 06:43 PM
Captain Obvious, how much EPA/ DHA fish oil did you use before you started phosphatidyl serine/ lecithin?

bookwurm2
03-06-09, 01:35 AM
Considering that the PS complex is just a phospholipid complex, I wouldn't have any concerns using it together with stimulants. It probably only appears "potent" is you have a deficiency (and I expect those of us for whom it works have a deficiency.) Vitamin C can appear to be a very potent drug if you have scurvy.

steven d
03-07-09, 06:41 PM
Captain Obvious, you should also try supplements that contain mostly phosphatidyl choline (PC). Lecithin is a mix that contains 10-20% PC, but there are supplements out there that contain mostly PC (about 40%). Bookwurm has better experiences with using supplements containing mostly PC (capsule form). For example try NSI Phosphatidyl Choline (without B6).

ILADHD
03-09-09, 01:43 PM
You guys might want to look at Krill Oil. It's Omega-3 attached to Phospholipid instead of Triglyceride like Fish Oil.

bookwurm2
03-10-09, 01:18 AM
Yes, I already have some Neptune krill oil that I bought to try. I'm very sensitive to PS so I'm very interested in how well it will work.

Captain Obvious
03-16-09, 12:28 AM
Captain Obvious, how much EPA/ DHA fish oil did you use before you started phosphatidyl serine/ lecithin?


I did it about 4 grams a day for a couple years. This was before I had even HEARD of phosphatidylserine (PS). I was just using it for the reported health benefits that fish oil had by itself. And I did notice a difference after a while.

It's not like adderall where you can instantly tell whether you're on it or not. But you start to see subtle improvements over a month that you might not even give credit to the fish oil at first. But once you start coming more observant of the fact that the changes began when you started the fish oil, then you'll realize the difference it makes. It's not huge. Doesn't compare to the stims at all. But it's good for a clear mind without the "mental fogginess".

steven d
03-22-09, 04:47 PM
Did you also try krill oil?

bookwurm2
03-23-09, 01:15 AM
I am trying the krill oil now and it seems to be working. I should have a better idea of how well it works in a day or two.

By the way, I've tried both the Fearn and Thompson brands of lecithin granules and neither one of them worked. I wouldn't recommend either of these as a substitute for the PS.

steven d
03-24-09, 08:31 AM
By the way, I've tried both the Fearn and Thompson brands of lecithin granules and neither one of them worked. I wouldn't recommend either of these as a substitute for the PS.

I found out that normal lecithin contains equal amounts of phosphatidyl choline and phosphatidyl ethanolamine.

The phosphatidyl choline supplements on the other hand contain three times the amount of phosphatidyl choline compared to phosphatidyl ethanolamine. Perhaps this explains the difference between normal lecithin and PC/ PS supplements:

http://www.vitacost.com/FearnLecithinGranules#IngredientFacts
(normal lecithin)

http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=658&at=0
(phosphatidyl choline)

So I would recommend taking phosphatidyl choline supplements instead of normal lecithin.

steven d
03-29-09, 10:59 AM
Has anyone tried the phosphatidyl choline supplements?

APSJ
04-06-09, 08:29 PM
I am very skeptical of alternative treatments for ADHD, having tried quite a few of them. Every few years I start taking fish oil, and do so for a number of months, before realizing that they still don't help me. I happen to be in one of those periods now, and take a capsule with 3000 mg of fish oil, 450 EPA, and 300 DHA. I've probably been remebering to take it about 4 or 5 times a week.

After reading some of the threads in this forums, I decided to try phosphatidylserine. I got 300 mg capsules from GNC. When I saw the price, I sort of hoped they wouldn't work.

The first time I tried it, I decided not to take my medication, to see if I'd notice anything, and I definitely did. I felt like I'd have much less trouble working, and the prospect seemed less overwhelming. When I actually tried to work, I found it very difficult, moreso than when I take medication, but less difficult than with nothing. I attributed this to the placebo effect.

The second time I took it I didn't notice anything, and decided to take my medication since I had to go to school. Later in the day, I felt like I was much more focused in class than I normally am with my medication alone. This time, I had already given up on the phosphatidylserine actually doing anything, so I'm less inclined to attribute the benefit to the placebo effect. In addition, I got very little sleep last night, so my focus would normally be worse.

I found a lot of references online to a small unpublished study by a Dr. Ryser, which found that phosphatidylserine helped children with ADHD, and that they improved even if they were already taking medication. The study also found no adverse interactions(according to the websites) I haven't found anything else regarding the simultaneous use of stimulant medication and phosphatidylserine, and wondered if anyone knew if there's been any other research?

Does anyone else use both medication and phosphatidylserine? Also, how often do you take it and how long does it seem to last?

I'd appreciate any advice.

stillfightin
04-06-09, 08:53 PM
I am very skeptical of alternative treatments for ADHD, having tried quite a few of them. Every few years I start taking fish oil, and do so for a number of months, before realizing that they still don't help me. I happen to be in one of those periods now, and take a capsule with 3000 mg of fish oil, 450 EPA, and 300 DHA. I've probably been remebering to take it about 4 or 5 times a week.

After reading some of the threads in this forums, I decided to try phosphatidylserine. I got 300 mg capsules from GNC. When I saw the price, I sort of hoped they wouldn't work.

The first time I tried it, I decided not to take my medication, to see if I'd notice anything, and I definitely did. I felt like I'd have much less trouble working, and the prospect seemed less overwhelming. When I actually tried to work, I found it very difficult, moreso than when I take medication, but less difficult than with nothing. I attributed this to the placebo effect.

The second time I took it I didn't notice anything, and decided to take my medication since I had to go to school. Later in the day, I felt like I was much more focused in class than I normally am with my medication alone. This time, I had already given up on the phosphatidylserine actually doing anything, so I'm less inclined to attribute the benefit to the placebo effect. In addition, I got very little sleep last night, so my focus would normally be worse.

I found a lot of references online to a small unpublished study by a Dr. Ryser, which found that phosphatidylserine helped children with ADHD, and that they improved even if they were already taking medication. The study also found no adverse interactions(according to the websites) I haven't found anything else regarding the simultaneous use of stimulant medication and phosphatidylserine, and wondered if anyone knew if there's been any other research?

Does anyone else use both medication and phosphatidylserine? Also, how often do you take it and how long does it seem to last?

I'd appreciate any advice.

The product I'm taking has that ingredient, but I can't say if it's that particular ingredient that is helping me since there are dozens of other stuff in it... I know this doesn't answer your question though :P

bookwurm2
04-07-09, 12:46 AM
APSJ,

Are you taking the GNC capsules with 300 mg of Phosphatidylserine- this one http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3172621 ?

This has 3x the amount of PS as the capsules I take. By the way, I'm glad you tried GNC because GNC and Natures Way were the only ones that worked very well for me. (I take Natures Way because it is less expensive.)

I have not taken PS together with medication. It works well enough for me that I stopped taking medication. However my doctor did say that it was fine for me to take PS together with a stimulant.

For me, 100 mg of PS lasts about 6 hours while I'm awake. If I'm asleep it lasts much longer. I can get through a full day (24 hours) with 3 100 mg capsules. I stay "on" it all the time, even when I'm asleep. I sleep much better when on PS and feel much more alert and focused when I wake up.

Also, If found that if I take PS continually, the effect seems to increase after several days of use. If I stop taking it, then it takes a few days for me to get back up to maximal effectiveness again.

The fish oil has synergistic effect with the PS. If you weren't taking it, I think its likely that you'd see less of an effect from the PS.

When I first started taking PS, I was taking a similar dose of fish oil to what you are taking. However, when I later increased my daily dose to 1000 mg of EPA and 200 mg of DHA, I found that the PS worked better and more consistently for me.

APSJ
04-07-09, 10:02 AM
Are you taking the GNC capsules with 300 mg of Phosphatidylserine- this one http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3172621 ?

This has 3x the amount of PS as the capsules I take. By the way, I'm glad you tried GNC because GNC and Natures Way were the only ones that worked very well for me. (I take Natures Way because it is less expensive.)

That's the one I'm taking. I'll have to try a smaller dose, and the Nature's Way brand. The one's I'm taking now are too expensive for regular use.


For me, 100 mg of PS lasts about 6 hours while I'm awake. If I'm asleep it lasts much longer. I can get through a full day (24 hours) with 3 100 mg capsules. I stay "on" it all the time, even when I'm asleep. I sleep much better when on PS and feel much more alert and focused when I wake up.

Also, If found that if I take PS continually, the effect seems to increase after several days of use. If I stop taking it, then it takes a few days for me to get back up to maximal effectiveness again.

The fish oil has synergistic effect with the PS. If you weren't taking it, I think its likely that you'd see less of an effect from the PS.

When I first started taking PS, I was taking a similar dose of fish oil to what you are taking. However, when I later increased my daily dose to 1000 mg of EPA and 200 mg of DHA, I found that the PS worked better and more consistently for me.

Its really interesting that it helps you sleep. I've been hesitant to take it after the morning because everything else that's successfully made me more alert in the past has interfered with my sleep. I may have to experiment with taking a second dose late in the day and lessening my medication at that time.

How long did it take before you noticed an increased effect from the fish oil?

ADHDTigger
04-07-09, 11:47 AM
Hey guys!

I'm taking the PS and Fish Oil also and have not only felt the increased effect, my partner has noticed a marked difference when I am on top of my supplements. I agree with Bookwurm, the effect seems to be cumulative. My partner is good about reminding me and I have various reminders all over the house.

I'm taking the GNC product and it seems to be the right strength. I will look into the Nature's Way product as well. GNC is too pricy for me too.

The Fish Oil I take is by Nature's Bounty. I found it at Walgreen's of all places and it is the highest concentration of EPA and DHA I have found- 720 mg EPA and 480 mg DHA per 2 gelcap dose. Dosing is twice daily. I also was able to find a DHA booster at 300 mg but I can never remember if the EPA needs to be higher or the DHA does.

If you watch Walgreens, they do Buy One, Get One deals frequently. I buy my CoQ10 during those sales because it is so expensive and I can generally buy a couple of months ahead.

One of my current projects is to figure out where the best pricing is and for what. Once I have a comparison for the basics, I'll be happy to pass it on.

Keep in mind that my results may be slightly different than yours- women have to also be doing something to deal with the impact of estrogen fluctuation. HRT isn't an option for me so I use Black Cohosh and Evening Primrose Oil to manage that. Still, I don't think that it is an exact science. I was using those prior to starting the Fish Oil et al and, while helpful, didn't really close the gap entirely.

steven d
04-07-09, 02:43 PM
I would advice you to use the fish oil more frequently and for a longer time. Because fish oil takes at least 6 weeks or even 4 months to work. It's best to use fish oil every day continuously without a break I think. Some brands of fish oil are actually quite cheap so you can use them every day.

The first time I tried it, I decided not to take my medication, to see if I'd notice anything, and I definitely did. I felt like I'd have much less trouble working, and the prospect seemed less overwhelming. When I actually tried to work, I found it very difficult, moreso than when I take medication, but less difficult than with nothing. I attributed this to the placebo effect.

Yes this can be the PS working. When I tried it I felt much more focussed, like I had magnifying glasses. Additionally I felt much more calmed and focussed as explained before (felt like I moved from hong kong to deserted island). Felt so clear and really there.. Crystalclear.. Yes that is the word...

The second time I took it I didn't notice anything, and decided to take my medication since I had to go to school. Later in the day, I felt like I was much more focused in class than I normally am with my medication alone. This time, I had already given up on the phosphatidylserine actually doing anything, so I'm less inclined to attribute the benefit to the placebo effect. In addition, I got very little sleep last night, so my focus would normally be worse.

Maybe the normal medication and the PS is working synergistic. Together they work even stronger then as a stand alone. This is exactly what "captain obvious" reported. So it's not that strange.

It's good to hear people reporting (good) results with using PS against ADHD.

One of my current projects is to figure out where the best pricing is and for what. Once I have a comparison for the basics, I'll be happy to pass it on.

Right now I am trying phosphatidyl choline supplements. Previously I tried lecithin granules, that contained (a littlebit of?) PS and alot of PC (phosphatidyl choline, the 'cousin' of PS). PC supplements are much cheaper then PS supplements. Bookwurm tried lecithin granules but it had no effect. But I had good results with lecithin granules. Maybe every brand is different (different kinds of lecithin have a different composition).

APSJ
04-07-09, 02:49 PM
I think I will try to be more consistent with it. So is it the EPA that's important in the oil?

bookwurm2
04-08-09, 01:27 AM
"Its really interesting that it helps you sleep. I've been hesitant to take it after the morning because everything else that's successfully made me more alert in the past has interfered with my sleep. I may have to experiment with taking a second dose late in the day and lessening my medication at that time."

PS makes it much easier for me to go to sleep on time and wake up on time. Also, when I wake up, I feel wide awake and alert. It was never like this before I took PS. For the first several weeks that I took it, I'd ocassionally wake up in the middle of night feeling wide awake, but this wore off. (Even then, I was sleeping better on balance.)

"How long did it take before you noticed an increased effect from the fish oil?"

I'd been taking fish oil for years before I first started taking PS. But when I upped my dose to 1000 mg of EPA per day, I saw an increased effect right away. This surprised me because I thought that if there would be any effect it would be over several weeks.

APSJ
04-08-09, 09:07 AM
I'd been taking fish oil for years before I first started taking PS. But when I upped my dose to 1000 mg of EPA per day, I saw an increased effect right away. This surprised me because I thought that if there would be any effect it would be over several weeks.

The reccomended dose for the fish oil I'm taking is two capsules and I've only been taking one, so I guess I'll see if doubling it makes a difference.

I'm still not entirely convinced that the effects I've seen aren't coincidental, or imagined, as I've thought natural(and medical actually) remedies have helped before, and later realized it was all in my head.

On the other hand, the only "natural" remedy that I take whose efficacy nobody would dispute(melatonin), is similar to this in the sense that its a supplement for a chemical the body produces naturally(as best I understand it), so I remain hopeful.

It seems like people generally feel that GNC and Nature's Way are the two brands that work best. I'm hesitant to try the NW 500 mg "complex" with 100 mg of PS, first because I've had good, but still questionable, results with 300 mg of pure PS, and I'm not sure what the other stuff in the "complex" is. Thus, I doubt taking a third of what I am now would be very helpful. Having used both, do you notice any difference between the 500 mg NW complex, and the 100 mg GNC capsules? I think it may work out to be cheaper to take 3 of the NW instead of one of the GNC.

bookwurm2
04-08-09, 01:06 PM
The complexes have several other phospholipids in addition to PS. The other phosopholipids are "natural" also.

I've also heard that people have had good luck with Source Naturals PS complex and the Vitamin Shoppe PS (also a complex). I have not tried those myself.

I suspect that GNC PS is also a complex. With supplements, the ingredient list isn't always as complete as it could be.

The Natures Way PS contains:

""Phospholipids: Phosphatidylserine...100 mg**, Phosphatidylcholine...45mg**, Phosphatidylethanolamine...10mg**, Phosphatidylinositol...5mg**, Fatty Acids: Linoleic Acid...85mg**, Linolenic Acid...10mg**, Oleic Acid...15mg**, Stearic Acid...6mg**, Palmitic Acid...27mg**, Capric Acid...51mg**, Caprylic Acid...120mg**, Minerals: Phosphorus...8mg...8%, Potassium...3mg**.[% U.S. Recommended Daily Allowance.], [** No U.S. RDA has been established.], Gelatin, Glycerin."

This is not on the label, but Steven D. found it on a web site and I then confirmed it with Natures Way customer service.

steven d
04-15-09, 08:49 AM
I'm still not entirely convinced that the effects I've seen aren't coincidental, or imagined, as I've thought natural(and medical actually) remedies have helped before, and later realized it was all in my head.

Maybe a rapid tolerance developed? Making that remedy useless? I have that experience with alot of meds (except genistein). Always when I start a new med or supplement, it works great the first days and after that it's like it's not working anymore.

The same appears to be happening with PS. I had great results the first days I used it worked great but now it's like very weak. Hopefully it will get better as I use fish oil longer.

APSJ
04-15-09, 09:30 AM
After the first couple of days of using it, I stopped noticing anything. I'm going to give it a little longer though, as I've got thirty of them.

bookwurm2
04-16-09, 01:04 AM
I've been taking it for well over a year now and it continues to work very well for me.

Captain Obvious
04-17-09, 05:07 AM
GNC??? The evil empire of nutraceuticals who deceives the masses into thinking that one should pay 50 bucks for a tub of protein?

www.bodybuilding.com

On there, NOW brand phosphatidylserine costs around 16 bucks for a bottle of 60 x 100mg. That's the best deal on the site.

That's equal to 20 x 300mg.... Compare this to GNC's 30 x 300mg price...

nuff said.

I'm not disputing the quality of GNC products. They work quite well... But one can buy supplements of equal or better quality online for half the price.

BB.com is an extremely trustworthy site. I've ordered from there for years. So security is not an issue.

steven d
04-17-09, 03:30 PM
It's now the third month of using fish oil. I'm not sure, but I got the feeling the PS/ PC is slowly starting to work again. I got that relaxed (nothing on my mind) feeling back.

FrazzleDazzle
04-18-09, 12:46 PM
May I pop in with a question for you PS takers? I tried one the other afternoon, and got a horrible stomach ache. Do you know if PS should be taken with food/without food? What works for you guys?

steven d
04-18-09, 03:27 PM
Maybe it's because it's a littlebit acid?

Then it should be taken with food.

FrazzleDazzle
04-18-09, 03:33 PM
Thanks, Steven. I tried this morning with food, and no bellyache! I do feel calmer. I am taking my son's leftovers from Source Naturals. I'll keep ya'll posted.

FrazzleDazzle
04-18-09, 06:31 PM
YIKES! Maybe 4 hours after taking it this morning, and eating normally, I had a little hypoglycemic episode. I have not had one of those in years! Could the PS have done that? This was certainly a surprise.

bookwurm2
04-18-09, 08:11 PM
Frazzle,

I've never heard of PS being linked to hypoglycemia. PS can impact cortisol levels. I'm read claims that PS can help "normalize" cortisol by affecting the feedback mechanism (raising it if too low and lowering it if too high) but I don't know how much research there is too support this. But its clear that PS often tends to reduce cortisol and this might increase your susceptibility to hypoglycemia. But is it possible that this is just a coincidence?

steven d
04-19-09, 05:33 AM
I really have no idea. I personally never had any side effects from PS/ PC or lecithin, even with megadoses.

Did you take fish oil for a long time prior to taking PS? The people who report succes are usually the ones that took fish oil for longer periods such as a year. It isn't that strange as fish oil really takes a long time to work.

Captain Obvious
04-19-09, 08:34 PM
A tip for those of you who have noticed no effects. Try sublingual dosing.

It can't be absorbed entirely sublingually, cause it's a liquid and won't stay put under your tongue, but try this:

Go out and buy a good quality source of Omega-3's. Pills or liquid, it doesn't matter.

Now, take a gram of the omega 3's (usually one gelcap, if that's the form you're using) and one 100mg gelcap of PS.

Chew up both capsules until your mouth is full of this fatty liquid. Don't worry, it doesn't taste bad at all. Actually kinda good. Peanut-buttery, just not so thick.

Hold this liquid in your mouth for 4-10 minutes. Somewhere around 2-3 minutes you'll get this sudden "rush" feeling.... Well, not really rush, cause it's a calming feeling...

But you'll get a VERY perceptible relaxation feeling that hits you hard and fast.

If you don't notice this, then you truly ARE a non-responder.

In fact, I never take PS directly orally... I always hold it in my mouth for about 4 minutes before I swallow. much more fun.

wait...wut?
04-20-09, 01:07 PM
after reading this thread i went out and bought a pound of HEB brand soy lecithin granules. they are 97-99% phosphatides, has 450mg phosphatidylcholine, 330mg phosphatidylinositol, 4350 mg linoleic acid, and 900mg linolenic acid per serving. i took it with around 500mg of dha and epa (500mg each), and within the hour i felt like i was in a better mood, could speak more clearly, and could understand people easily. i tried it again this morning before clinicals, and wow!!! i felt at ease, and processed thoughts quickly and efficiently.
on a side note i am currently not medicated and am willing to try anything. my first appointment is tomorrow! :) this stuff works great!

bookwurm2
04-21-09, 01:07 AM
Wait, where did you buy the HEB lecithin granules from? Are they available online?

I didn't find any google searching... does HEB stand for something?

APSJ
04-21-09, 12:22 PM
Now, take a gram of the omega 3's (usually one gelcap, if that's the form you're using) and one 100mg gelcap of PS.

Chew up both capsules until your mouth is full of this fatty liquid. Don't worry, it doesn't taste bad at all. Actually kinda good. Peanut-buttery, just not so thick.

Hold this liquid in your mouth for 4-10 minutes. Somewhere around 2-3 minutes you'll get this sudden "rush" feeling.... Well, not really rush, cause it's a calming feeling...

But you'll get a VERY perceptible relaxation feeling that hits you hard and fast.


I'm always interested to try new things that may help my ADHD, but the prospect of chewing a fish oil capsule is quite unappealing.

The PS capsules I have are filled with powder, are the gel ones more effective? From reading through the threads on PS, it seems like the GNC brand that I have is one of the more effective for a lot of people.

wait...wut?
04-21-09, 01:46 PM
Wait, where did you buy the HEB lecithin granules from? Are they available online?

I didn't find any google searching... does HEB stand for something?

HEB is a grocery store in texas. it is regional, mainly in texas. i dont think there are very many outside of texas. (it stands for howard edward butts) i just checked to see if they ship but they dont. check at a large supermarket.

steven d
04-28-09, 08:11 AM
Is there anything new regarding using phosphatidyl serine?

steven d
05-02-09, 02:16 PM
I have a question. Is the PS still working as good as previous? No tolerance?

bookwurm2
05-02-09, 07:42 PM
I've used PS continuously every day for over a year without developing any tolerance. Works good as ever. Lately I've been experimenting with some other supplements. The last few days I've been trying Carnosine.

steven d
05-08-09, 03:41 AM
What is the dosage l-carnosine you take and what brand?

bookwurm2
05-08-09, 01:43 PM
I am taking 500 mg. capsules of L-Carnosine. One capsule lasts me 24 hours. I am using the NSI brand from vitacost, but I expect that any brand would work. I am also taking Vitamin E (400 IU) and zinc (50 mg) because Vitamin E and zinc were also used in a sucessful double-blind study of L-Carnosine (but the study was for autism, not ADHD).

As far as I can tell, the L-Carnosine has the same effect as the phosphatidylserine complex.

According to phospholipid spectrum disorder theory, abnormalities in the phospholipids may be caused by oxidative stress. One possible cuplrit is copper-mediated oxidation. See http://www.scipub.org/fulltext/ajbb/ajbb4295-100.pdf . From what I've read L-Carnosine is strong anti-oxidant that can cross the blood-brain barrier and has copper-chelating properties. That is why I became interested in L-Carnosine.

But really, I can not say why it works--it might be because it is preventing the oxidation of phospholipids or it may be due to some other mechanism of action--however I can say that it works very well for me.

It is considerably less expensive than phosphatidylserine. If you are taking phosphatidylserine, you may want to try L-Carnosine.

If you have tried phosphatidylserine complex and it didn't work for you, it's quite possible you won't see any effect from L-Carnosine either...

steven d
05-11-09, 01:13 PM
I will try l-carnosine too. I have read very good things about it (it's an antioxidant and may even extend life and so on). The major reason I want to try it is because the PS still isn't working and maybe together with the l-carnosine it will work.

steven d
05-13-09, 07:31 AM
what's your current experience with l-carnosine bookwurm?

bookwurm2
05-14-09, 02:52 AM
It's still working great. I only have to take a capsule once per day instead of 3 times a day like I did with the PS.

steven d
05-19-09, 01:51 PM
I recently read a warning message about (l-)carnosine:

http://caprofile.net/CARNOSINEwarning1.html

I don't know if the warning message is a reason for panic, but the warning looks logical to me. Since there are no safety studies (clinical trials) conducted I think great care should be taken when taking carnosine.

steven d
05-19-09, 02:05 PM
Bookwurm,

Can you tell me what works best?

Phosphatidyl Choline + B6
or
L-Carnosine
or
Phosphatidyl Serine

I mean which one is the strongest?

bookwurm2
05-20-09, 12:32 AM
Carnosnemia is fairly rare genetic disease. The safety of L-Carnosine is not as well established as PS, however in the use to date, side effects are fairly rare and when they occur they are usually not serious. Some children experience increased hyperactivity, but this appears to the exception, not the rule.

bookwurm2
05-20-09, 12:39 AM
"Can you tell me what works best?

Phosphatidyl Choline + B6
or
L-Carnosine
or
Phosphatidyl Serine

I mean which one is the strongest?"

I'm going back onto PS after some time on L-Carnosine to compare the results. But so far I'd have to say that L-Carnosine is the strongest.

the PC + B6 seems to last longer than PS in increasing focus, but after I've been using it for several days it doesn't leave me with the same sense of "well-being" that the PS (and the L-Carnosine) gives me--it leaves me much more irritable and, well, not has happy. So I haven't been using the PC. I will keep it for short-term use for when I run out of L-Carnosine or PS.

steven d
06-08-09, 01:18 PM
Hey captain obvious,

May I ask you what's your experience with PS now? Have you discovered anything new?

Because the PS isn't working as good anymore as it used to I now use dexedrine along with PS. So far good results.

steven d
06-10-09, 09:46 AM
I now use Dexedrine. The dexedrine works a bit but I still miss the good old PS days. The dexedrine isn't that effective (my head is still foggy and reading is difficult) and it also has many side effects such as sleeplessness and headache. I never had this with PS. The PS felt more "natural"/ "healthy"/ "side effect free". I also feel nervous sometimes with dexedrine. I miss the old calm and relaxed feeling I had previously with PS. Even thought the PS still works a bit, but only for a short time.

steven d
06-22-09, 12:17 PM
I'm starting a new 'experiment'. Since I had good luck using high dosage herring fish oil (but that thing isn't for sale anymore) in the past, I will now try using a high dosage krill oil. Krill oil is very expensive but it's worth trying, since this is a different kind of oil compared with normal fish oil.

Since one capsule krill oil contains only small amounts of krill oil I have to take 7-10 capsules of krill oil in order to obtain the same amount of fish oil that 1 capsule of fish oil has! I will use nature's way krill oil.

bookwurm2
06-23-09, 12:55 AM
That sounds expensive! What type of krill oil are you taking? Let us know if you see any results...

steven d
06-24-09, 04:17 AM
It should cost around 3-4 dollars a day. I use nature's way "neptune" krill oil.

steven d
06-25-09, 01:16 PM
I now take 10 capsules of krill oil a day. I think it's working... Today I felt my work performance was dramatically increased. To such an extend that I had to sweat... I never sweat because I am always working with a very slow workpace.

steven d
06-29-09, 12:36 PM
This is the third day of using krill oil (10 caps a day). I'm very satisfied until now. I feel cooking is becoming easier and quicker as I can concentrate better. I also have more motivation to do stuff. I'll see what happens on the long run.

steven d
07-06-09, 07:51 AM
Do you think sublingual administration of krill oil is better then oral administration?

Sublingual administration is holding krill oil under the tongue for 5-10 minutes and then swallowing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublingual_administration

bookwurm2
07-07-09, 01:10 AM
That stuff (krill oil) tastes nasty if you bite open the capsules. I think I'll pass on trying sublingual administration of it!

steven d
07-07-09, 09:11 AM
Really? I never found it tasting bad. But I got the feeling that sublingual administration is (much) better then oral administration.

steven d
07-13-09, 08:55 AM
I am now 'experimenting' with sublingual administration of EPA fish oil. Since fish oil is much cheaper then krill oil and exists in a much higher dosage, I think it's better to use fish oil instead of krill oil anyway.

The krill oil did work, but not as well as I wished. So now I try fish oil sublingual administration.

chaosmind
10-27-13, 08:01 AM
This is old topic, so apologies if resurrection is not allowed. This thread has a lot of interesting information that I did not find anywhere else.

DS has autism and shows signs of ADHD but I am not in a mood to medicate him so soon. I think there are a ton of other issues more pressing than ADHD but the teacher at school has been complaining about his attention, so before she refers him to the school district with a suggestion of a medication, I would like to calm him down a bit with supplements, if possible. It is encouraging that many members participating in this thread found PS useful. I have been using Douglas Labs PS, mainly because it is from non-Soy plant source (1 gelcap in the afternoon, away from fish oil - No specific reason. I just didn't know you should use it with fish oil).

But if folks, mentioned Nature's way works best, I am willing to that route too. I just want to make sure that it is still the same product as it was in 2009.

Two other forms of Lecithin have been discussed on this thread,

I am curious if they are any better than Nature's Way brand.

And of course, the dosage, do you take it every time with fish oil?

For the fish oil, I am using Nordic Naturals Ultimate Omega (2.5ml 2X a day) and Nordic Naturals DHA (one gelcap 2X a day).

Is there any other comment you would like to make, I welcome all suggestions.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Dahkter Opioid
10-31-13, 08:45 PM
Thanks for reviving this thread as I found it highly interesting.

I believe that in some cases of ADD/ADHD there is just a high amount of glucocorticoids i the persons system. If there is something natural like phosphatidylserine in combination with fish oil (I prefer hemp oil) that lowers the abundance of those stress hormones, some people could possibly go off their stimulant therapy.

You are definitely right on avoiding soy based phosphatidylserine.
(more like, 'avoid almost everything derived from soy.' lol)

whereami
11-18-13, 03:34 AM
Big bump on this one....turns out you folks weren't crazy after all :)

Kind of huge news. Sorry if it's been covered elsewhere? I couldn't find it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23495677

That's three scientific studies in a row now, all confirming phosphatidylserine as a significant benefit in the treatment of ADHD.

All the studies seemed to use Soy-based. Are we sure that this is evil?

Looking forward to a revival of this thread. Just deciding if I want to start taking this.

Amtram
11-18-13, 11:58 AM
I wouldn't be so excited yet. That's an awfully small study, completely unblinded and measured by a single investigator, and using several testing modalities that aren't universally regarded as indicators of ADHD. The p-values are meh. The journal that published it doesn't even have an impact factor - that's an extremely important indicator of how valid this research is.

I would also be concerned with the chemical composition of a soy-based treatment, especially on pre-adolescents, because of the high levels of phytoestrogens. The impact might be less in Japan, where the study took place, and where soy products are already a significant part of the diet, but elsewhere there could be a negative impact on development during puberty in both genders.

TygerSan
11-18-13, 02:05 PM
Actually, as laboratory measures of attention go, the measures that they use aren't so bad. It is a small study in a relatively obscure journal, and it is really hard to determine how they did their statistical analyses without having access to the full text, but there is enough in the abstract to make me want to read the full study before passing judgment.

Amtram
11-18-13, 02:55 PM
The full text is available for free. That's what I read. Click the Wiley icon in the upper right.

APSJ
11-19-13, 08:27 PM
I haven't read the full study yet, but it's interesting to see research on this, as it's the only natural/alternative ADHD treatment I tried that was at all effective, albeit only for a few days as I recall. Skimming the study, it seems they tried it successfully for two months, though. Perhaps this will prompt a larger more structured study.