View Full Version : Desoxyn Question


mbm1512
02-27-09, 09:02 PM
Hello,
I'm new to the forum, this is my first post. I have a question about desoxyn, but I'll describe my situation first. I am a male 20 year old college student with a bad case of ADHD. I didn't get diagnosed till I was 18, but it was cool because it explained a lot about my life and a lot of stuff made sense. At first they tried me on Ritalin which didn't do that much, but they could tell I definitely had ADHD by my reaction to the medicine(Steadier hands, no impulsivity, calmer, better handwriting). Since Ritalin worked, I tried Adderall next. I don't like the effects amphetamines have on my body at all, (sweaty,heart rate up,no hunger, insomnia sometimes) so I decided to try CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) and see how effective I could be at controlling my ADHD without medicine (since I see my ADHD as a blessing in some ways, why should I have to take meds? Who is my psychiatrist trying to make me act like with this drug?). With some luck I found out that one of my best friends from childhood has ADD and his mom told me about a counselor to see. Turns out the guy was an ADHD specialist and is pretty well known in the ADHD realm. He taught me alot of things and I learned more about myself from those sessions than any other event I know of. I highly recommend anyone with ADD or ADHD see someone like this. His techniques worked and I went about 7 months with no meds, and still performed well. I started taking meds again recently because I am a finance major and its the end of my junior year, needless to say the workload and study time is immense, more than I can handle by myself it seems. I started taking Adderall, but I tried Vyvanse when I heard about it last month, didn't like it so I went back on Adderall. I have a pretty cool doctor that understands how dosages for these meds is very personal and changes with each individual so he lets me basically tell him what I want, to achieve the most efficient treatment. I am a large athletic person and it takes more of any substance to achieve the same effects as other people. With Adderall I honestly need 60-90 mg to have proper effects. 3 30mg XR's daily is too much in my opinion and I don't want to take it because it's too much on my body. So yesterday I went in to get a refill and I got Desoxyn instead. I read briefly on the net about it and it said that a smaller dosage was needed than Adderall. He started me on 10mg daily, which is about 1/4th of what I need I think, but thats how you have to do new meds. I am very impressed. Although I don't like the fact that it only comes in short acting form, it does do the job and it is more clear headed than when I am on Adderall. So my questions are...

How long does Desoxyn last usually? My Dr. said that he thought that I would only need to take it once daily, but I can assure you that the pills don't last all day.

In your experiences with Desoxyn, what is a normal effective dose for you? Even at 20mg daily the script costs about $400, is this normal?(Before insurance pays most)

Are there alot of negative side effects that street meth has? As in, will my teeth rot because of Desoxyn?

Also, they say that street meth has a very bad withdrawal. How bad is the withdrawal from Desoxyn if I discontinue use after the month? I guess I basically want the DL on Desoxyn since it's a rare script and I can't find much out about it (Even my doctor had never heard of it or prescribed it). Thank you for any advice/help!

ecu20
02-28-09, 06:19 AM
Hello,
I'm new to the forum, this is my first post. I have a question about desoxyn, but I'll describe my situation first.
...

I don't like the effects amphetamines have on my body at all, (sweaty,heart rate up,no hunger, insomnia sometimes) so I decided to try CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy)
So amphetamines had a too speedy of a feeling for you, sounds like you were on too high of a dose... Moving on.


I started taking Adderall, but I tried Vyvanse when I heard about it last month, didn't like it so I went back on Adderall.

Vyvanse is more closely related to desoxyn than adderall is. Adderall is more likely associated with the "amphetamine" effects you speak of, insomnia, sweaty, heart rate,etc. The L-Amphetamine portion attributes to that, with D-Amphetamine being more related to CNS effects (D-amphetamine is dexedrine and pretty much vyvanse).


(Adderall) 3 30mg XR's daily is too much in my opinion and I don't want to take it because it's too much on my body. So yesterday I went in to get a refill and I got Desoxyn instead. I read briefly on the net about it and it said that a smaller dosage was
So you hate amphetamine feelings, but the amphetamine in Adderall is ok? And 90mg of XR?! That's alot of amphetamine for a person who hates the speedy feeling of amphetamine......

And you do realize desoxyn is methylated amphetamine correct? Yet amphetamine is too speedy... OK.


it does do the job and it is more clear headed than when I am on Adderall. So my questions are...
As long as you don't feel that darned "speedy feeling," then it's all good! Although I am curious as to why methamphetamine is OK for you, but amphetamine is too speedy.


How long does Desoxyn last usually? My Dr. said that he thought that I would only need to take it once daily, but I can assure you that the pills don't last all day.
"Following oral administration, peak methamphetamine concentrations are seen in 2.6-3.6 hours and the mean elimination half-life is 10.1 hours (range 6.4-15 hours)" - http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/research/job185drugs/methamphetamine.htm (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/research/job185drugs/methamphetamine.htm)


Are there alot of negative side effects that street meth has? As in, will my teeth rot because of Desoxyn?
Most negative side effects are due to abuse, misuse, and unknown purity due to god knows what fillers drug dealers use to cut their product with.

Pharmaceudical Desoxyn SHOULD NOT cause you problems granted you follow your usual hygiene practices, and drink a bit of extra water daily.

Typically methmouth is due to people going on meth binges and not caring for a second about hygiene, but only caring about the next score of a gram bag.


Also, they say that street meth has a very bad withdrawal. How bad is the withdrawal from Desoxyn if I discontinue use after the month?
Again, depends on the person. Methamphetamine and amphetamine withdrawl is psychological, with mild tiredness as a minor physical side effect.

The craving for wanting meth is all in your head, it's not a "you will break out into shakes and could die due to withdrawl side effects" kind of drug.


I still don't understand you not liking the "amphetamine effects" related to l-amphetamine, then you go take 90mg of adderall XR, along with liking adderall more than vyvanse. You should be taking vyvanse because it is more "smooth" than adderall, with less side effects you speak of. Desoxyn IS an amphetamine also!! Sheesh..

mbm1512
02-28-09, 01:12 PM
Cheers for answering all my questions!
You're right, I dunno why I feel that way towards adderall. Basically, Adderall puts me into the "zone" where I become an autonomous task machine, whereas Desoxyn is more like, I have the ability to do what I need to, but I can also just hang out or do what I usually do. On adderall Ill catch myself doing useless tasks for no reason just to fill time. I know that Desoxyn is an amphetamine group too, but I guess it has less negative physical effects on me because the dose I have to take is much less than the adderall equivalent. Seeing how we adhd folks react so oppositely to stimulants than other people, who's to say that a stronger one (desoxyn) won't have a larger calming effect on me? Alot of people take the meds in an effort to boost their motivation, but for me its about slowing stuff down. My mind constantly races at 1000mph unless I have had a few brews or I have taken a stimulant. So does any of this make sense? Haha probably not, but thats not uncommon with me.

dacres
02-28-09, 04:22 PM
OMG METH MOUTH IS NOT CAUSED BY THE CHEMICAL METHAMPHETAMINE.

Meth mouth is just because people who abuse meth (or anything like it!) get a nice combination of dehydration, craving for sugary snacks like soda and candy and staying up for 4 days without brushing teeth. Also anything in the amphetamine family can cause jaw clenching, (MDMA [ecstasy] is probably most notorious, ever wondered about the pacifiers at raves?) so basically it's a recipe for disaster: No brushing, dry mouth, sugar and grinding.

And ADHD people do NOT have a paradoxical reaction to stimulants. Stimulants will will make ANYONE focus at an amazing level, and that just happens to be a gorgeous effect for an ADHD person.

ecu20
02-28-09, 09:48 PM
OMG METH MOUTH IS NOT CAUSED BY THE CHEMICAL METHAMPHETAMINE.

Meth mouth is just because people who abuse meth (or anything like it!) get a nice combination of dehydration, craving for sugary snacks like soda and candy and staying up for 4 days without brushing teeth. Also anything in the amphetamine family can cause jaw clenching, (MDMA [ecstasy] is probably most notorious, ever wondered about the pacifiers at raves?) so basically it's a recipe for disaster: No brushing, dry mouth, sugar and grinding.

And ADHD people do NOT have a paradoxical reaction to stimulants. Stimulants will will make ANYONE focus at an amazing level, and that just happens to be a gorgeous effect for an ADHD person.

Actually, meth mouth _IS_ caused by the chemical methamphetamine. it's a known fact that bruxism, and xerostomia are side effects of meth. Those two things (basically teeth grinding and dry mouth, respectfully) combined with a lack of oral hygiene and high calorie sweet foods as a diet will more than likely cause it.

dacres
02-28-09, 09:56 PM
Did you read my entire post? ;)
If not, go back and re-read it.
The common assumption is that the acidity or other digestive effects of methamphetamine cause meth mouth, when in fact it is caused by side effects and is in no way unique to methamphetamine.
Silly boy.
I used MDMA many a time, I know how these drugs roll.

attention
03-01-09, 03:27 AM
"So yesterday I went in to get a refill and I got Desoxyn instead."

Really? you went to get more Adderall which you don't like, and unfortunately received Desoxyn? poor you:(

dacres
03-01-09, 04:19 AM
Haha, I don't think he was saying it was a bad thing.
In fact he seemed to think rather positively of it.

ecu20
03-01-09, 03:22 PM
Alright you want to be picky and supercilious, that's fine. I can play. ;)

OMG METH MOUTH IS NOT CAUSED BY THE CHEMICAL METHAMPHETAMINE.

Without the side effects of dehydration, dry mouth, AND TEETH CLENTCHING (all side effects like i said of meth), this WOULD NOT HAPPEN.

Meth mouth is just because people who abuse meth (or anything like it!) get a nice combination of dehydration, craving for sugary snacks like soda and candy and staying up for 4 days without brushing teeth. Also anything in the amphetamine family can cause jaw clenching, (MDMA [ecstasy] is probably most notorious, ever wondered about the pacifiers at raves?) so basically it's a recipe for disaster: No brushing, dry mouth, sugar and grinding.
So odds are without an initial catecholamine modulating drug (ie MPH, AMPH, MDMA, MDA) none of the so called meth mouth would get to that effect.
If it isn't a contributory to the effects, then why don't regular functioning people walk around with pacifiers to counter their bruxism? Why don't regular people get 24/7 dry mouth??

Please tell me why this does not occur to normal, non-drug abusing people, since you know so much about pharmacology because (as you state): "I used MDMA many a time, I know how these drugs roll."


And ADHD people do NOT have a paradoxical reaction to stimulants. Stimulants will will make ANYONE focus at an amazing level, and that just happens to be a gorgeous effect for an ADHD person.
Sorry chief, the paradoxical effect that was reported was that instead of agitating and causing an exponential increase in hyperactive persons with ADHD, it calmed them down. The focus happens none the less it is the CALMING effect that is paradoxical, and is very clear in many reports if you cared to READ it fully.


Speaking of READING:
Did you read my entire post? ;)
If not, go back and re-read it.

Oh I indeed read it fully, and even re-read it before posting.



The common assumption is that the acidity or other digestive effects of methamphetamine cause meth mouth, when in fact it is caused by side effects and is in no way unique to methamphetamine.

How would digestive effects be the common assumption? It's a common assumption that dry mouth and oral hygiene neglect cause meth mouth.

However common an assumption may be, the ACTUAL reason for meth mouth is very related to METH and it's side effects.

A side effect is IN RELATION TO INGESTING A DRUG. Side effects don't just happen out of the blue to normal drug abstinent persons. It requires a person to INJEST A DRUG to experience the drug's side effect!

Since meth causes the side effects of dry mouth, dehydration, teeth grinding, tightened jaw muscles, a person must be aware even moreso that when injesting this substance there is an INCREASED risk for worse oral hygine due to the sides. With extreme meth use, a desire of nothing more than obtaining more meth to continue the binged high, of COURSE a person will neglect hygiene when binging on meth.

Since i'm sure you can relate easier to this example, say you were to injest MDMA and use it for a week long binge being continuously hopped up on it. Lets say you don't have a pacifier. Would you agree that your teeth would grind down to stumps if you were to do this say, every other week for a year?

If you say no then you are an idiot.



Silly boy.

Way to be mature, yes i'm sure you know everything there is to know about methamphetamine pharmacologically speaking, since you took Biology 101! :)

ecu20
03-01-09, 03:25 PM
"So yesterday I went in to get a refill and I got Desoxyn instead."

Really? you went to get more Adderall which you don't like, and unfortunately received Desoxyn? poor you:(

Haha, I don't think he was saying it was a bad thing.
In fact he seemed to think rather positively of it.

I think if you read the poster's comment, you would realize that he is pointing out the irony of the original poster CLAIMING he had a mixup at the pharmacy pertaining to two of the most controlled, regulated, watched, and documented drugs in the pharmacy (amphetamine and methamphetamine).

Pharmacies don't just "mess up" prescriptions, let alone highly abusable schedule II substances that would cause the DEA to swoop down faster than you could imagine when they report a loss of a month's worth of desoxyn missing from it.

dacres
03-01-09, 03:40 PM
Sigh. There's no arguing with you on this one. I was just saying, people always have the idea that there is something special and unique to methamphetamine due to some sort of acid it produces in your mouth or some such idea like that when really anything in the amphetamine class is capable of it. I would say I definitely worded it poorly, however. I'm agreeing with you, so why are you arguing? I just said that the SIDE EFFECTS DO CAUSE IT. THAT'S WHY PEOPLE USING AMPHETAMINE CLASS THINGS GET IT. However, it isn't due to some sort of chemical reaction in the mouth from meth, and it certainly isn't unique to it.

And I just assumed by what he said that he meant he went to his doctor and his doctor instead decided to try Desoxyn. I worked in a pharmacy, and there's no way you could switch up two CIIs, and it'd be amazing Desoxyn was in stock in the first place. Plus, as I'm sure you would know, you can't just go to the pharmacy for a refill on CIIs, you have you get another script from your MD. So it just made sense to me that he got his new script from his doctor and after discussing his dislike of Adderall his doctor decided Desoxyn might be a good idea.

The mere suggestion of a mix-up with Desoxyn and Adderall is too far-fetched to even consider. And I can well imagine how fast the DEA swoops down. Even if they weren't CII, they don't look even close to the same, so the pharmacist would notice and wouldn't sign off on it.

Oh, and I tested out of 101 the year I was supposed to take it. :D

mbm1512
03-01-09, 04:43 PM
ok! To clear things up, they did not accidentally switch meds on me! I went in and specifically asked for it. Sorry if that was not clear. In no way did I just accidentally end up with the stuff. That doesn't happen

mbm1512
03-01-09, 04:45 PM
well now im confused..... I do grind my teeth sometimes and end up with dry mouth. Sooooo I'm gonna get methmouth? First it was the stuff people eat and the lack of hygiene, now it sounds like you guys think its the chemical itself...

dacres
03-01-09, 05:03 PM
To clarify, it's the combination of those things, all of which can be caused by amphetamine-class things.

They can cause dry mouth, grinding, cravings for sugary snacks, and to forget to brush teeth, etc. I know my first post was poorly worded, but I meant that the drug doesn't directly cause meth mouth; it's indirectly through the side-effects and amplified by the negligence of the user. That's why it is more common street meth abusers. They hit it super hard, stay up for 4 days, and then sleep for 2 days. So you have extreme clenching, probably no teeth-brushing in the 4 days since you'd associate that with getting up and going to bed, then no teeth-brushing for 2 days because you're asleep, add to that your mouth is probably bone dry and your teeth are probably still grinding, and the 15 acidic sodas you drank are probably not improving the situation. The part where I take issue is that amphetamine and MDMA would do the same thing; it's not unique to meth, it's just seen more with meth because street meth is way more common than street speed (because it is absolutely ridiculous how easy it is to reduce pseudoephedrine into methamphetamine). And although Adderall abuse is fairly common, people abusing Adderall generally have better hygiene and education. (Though they are naive enough to think Adderall and amphetamine are not the same thing... sigh.)

I'd recommend chewing gum, perhaps a mouthguard at night? and making sure to drink enough fluids and maybe use a dry-mouth mouthwash/toothpaste if you feel your teeth are deteriorating. Meth mouth is not really a condition of its own, it's just the result of all those side effects which can have a dramatic negative effect on your teeth. So, it's not like you're going to wake up and your teeth will be black and falling out, you'd notice a progression.

Just take preventative measures and be observant of anything dental concerns.

mbm1512
03-01-09, 06:30 PM
Alright, thank you. That makes sense.

As for the Desoxyn, today is day 3. I tried it first on Thurs afternoon. Then all day Friday. took Saturday off, and took it again today (Sunday). It's weird, I don't really know how I feel about it yet. It's not THAT much different from Adderall to be honest. The only difference I notice so far is the fact that on Desoxyn (as previously stated) I have the ability to stop working and just "hang out" whereas on Adderall I often find myself doing things like oh cleaning under my bed... Or other things which would normally be the last things I would ever think to do. Desoxyn is also less of a "RUSH" to be honest. I took it when I woke up which was late, 1245 pm mountain time. 3x5mg. I felt it within 45 min. When I take Adderall I can tell when it kicks in because I'm in the "ZONE". Desoxyn, not so much, more passive drug. Which to me screams "WTF.... Isn't this the ultimate stimulant?" Anyways, gonna go to the library for a study session, which is what I usually do when I take Adderall, so I'll let you all know how it works.

dacres
03-01-09, 09:07 PM
Actually that is completely true!
Methamphetamine is in many ways a "weaker" stimulant.

Adderall ---smoother---> Dexedrine ---smoother---> Desoxyn
(l&d-amphetamine)----->(d-amphetamine)---------> methamphetamine

As you move up the chain, it's not that you're getting heavier stimulant effects, usually they actually seem to kick less hard. It's not so much that the stimulants become more potent, it's that they have progressively less side effects generally. (All people react differently to each drug, so this is of course not always true.)

I think the perception tends to be that Desoxyn is heavier than Dexedrine which in turn is heavier than Adderall; really the case tends to be that Adderall slams harder and that causes bad side-effects in some people. Dexedrine and Desoxyn both tend to be more smooth. This is a positive thing for some and negative for others.

There is just such a massive stigma attached to methamphetamine because of its widespread abuse. This stigma is why Desoxyn is so rare. Methamphetamine is really only more common because for abuse it is probably more likeable because higher doses of amphetamine-class things tend to be more euphoric with less of an insane pounding/rushing feeling than regular amphetamine. Also, it is actually easier to synthesize methamphetamine than amphetamine. I mentioned this above, but I'll just illustrate it, you may be quite shocked.

This is methamphetamine:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Methamphetamine-2D-skeletal-.svg/200px-Methamphetamine-2D-skeletal-.svg.png

This is sudafed (pseudoephedrine):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v507/Mack2150/800px-Pseudoephedrine-1.png
As you can see, all that must be performed is a process to remove the OH group. To make amphetamine you would have remove another group.

So, really, there is too big of a fuss made of methamphetamine; there is just such an extreme stigma attached but really it is no more serious than Adderall or Dexedrine, in fact for many it is much tamer and more effective in controlling their symptoms with less side-effects. However for many Adderall is sufficient, and Adderall seems to have the least stigma; although Ritalin is probably the least infamous, hence why many people get started on Ritalin rather than Adderall.

So yeah it is totally normal that you are feeling less of a rushing feeling than Adderall, it should be much smoother, and perhaps when/if you titrate up you will see some excellent symptom control. :)

ecu20
03-04-09, 01:00 AM
To clarify, it's the combination of those things, all of which can be caused by amphetamine-class things.

They can cause dry mouth, grinding, cravings for sugary snacks, and to forget to brush teeth, etc. I know my first post was poorly worded, but I meant that the drug doesn't directly cause meth mouth; it's indirectly through the side-effects and amplified by the negligence of the user. That's why it is more common street meth abusers. They hit it super hard, stay up for 4 days, and then sleep for 2 days. So you have extreme clenching, probably no teeth-brushing in the 4 days since you'd associate that with getting up and going to bed, then no teeth-brushing for 2 days because you're asleep, add to that your mouth is probably bone dry and your teeth are probably still grinding, and the 15 acidic sodas you drank are probably not improving the situation. The part where I take issue is that amphetamine and MDMA would do the same thing; it's not unique to meth, it's just seen more with meth because street meth is way more common than street speed (because it is absolutely ridiculous how easy it is to reduce pseudoephedrine into methamphetamine). And although Adderall abuse is fairly common, people abusing Adderall generally have better hygiene and education. (Though they are naive enough to think Adderall and amphetamine are not the same thing... sigh.)

I'd recommend chewing gum, perhaps a mouthguard at night? and making sure to drink enough fluids and maybe use a dry-mouth mouthwash/toothpaste if you feel your teeth are deteriorating. Meth mouth is not really a condition of its own, it's just the result of all those side effects which can have a dramatic negative effect on your teeth. So, it's not like you're going to wake up and your teeth will be black and falling out, you'd notice a progression.

Just take preventative measures and be observant of anything dental concerns.

Now that you clarified where you are coming from, I am comfortable saying that our explanations are close to being one in the same.

For my reasoning, I was arguing that you stated "meth mouth" was not caused by meth, only by the side effects. However, since meth is the primary action that initiated the side effects, the side effects would fail to occur without meth use. This explains my reasoning that if meth causes the side effects, and the side effects cause "meth mouth," then it's safe to assume that meth mouth would not occur without meth causing the side effects it does.

At the very least, meth (due to the increased rate of reported side effects at any noticeable dosage) is an exponentiating agent of negative results experienced from neglecting oral hygiene.

In short, in even theraputic doses it promotes gum drying and dry mouth in a good amount of persons prescribed it, which leads to an increased risk of poor oral health (if said person doesn't already have poor oral health issues).


In an attempt to put it in perspective, it would be similar to argue that miracle drug X moderately inhibits your immune system, and to an even higher extent the higher the amount of drug X is used. A low majority of persons on drug X experience sicknesses that is identifiable to drug x's effects on your body.

I am stating that drug X causes the sicknesses (since drug x -> weakened immune system -> sickness), and you are saying that lowered immune systems cause sickness :).

Honestly, I really don't TRY to argue, it's just encoded in my DNA or something :D.

Contrapunctus
03-10-09, 03:00 PM
Meth is less potent at releasing NE than d-amphetamine, but more potent at releasing DA and 5-HT. This explains why meth is less physically stimulating yet more euphoric than d-amp at higher doses.

mbm1512
03-13-09, 02:54 PM
Yeah your right, thats how I would describe it. I've never taken enough to really feel an intense euphoria (since it would take about 20 probably which is oh 100 bucks or more worth) its just not worth it. But sometimes, just a little, I'll notice a really nice calming body high that I can compare to eating MDMA. But I don't like taking Desoxyn for book work as much as I do for adderall. I love Desoxyn for crusing through my normal life better though, its easy to be on and I honestly forget I'm on it alot. Honestly, Adderall gives me a more intense "Druggish"(Meaning this feels illegal) feeling than Desoxyn. Next month I'm having my dr write me a 3 week script for Desoxyn and a 7 day script for Adderall XR's. See how that works out. I'm also surprised how long this sh*t works! I thought they are short acting so I took 15mg in the morning and I took another 20mg around 230 pm. Oops, no sleep that night, next thing I know the sun is coming up. Won't make that mistake again. Does Desoxyn make anyone else really cold? I mean given I'm in colorado but I still get like chilled to the bone sometimes when I'm just sitting around. Thanks. Michael

mbm1512
03-13-09, 05:25 PM
Oh, and to amend my original post... I was wrong, these are not short acting and they have me up just as long as Adderall does. Lasts too long sometimes in my opinion.

merovingian
03-31-09, 01:22 AM
"Following oral administration, peak methamphetamine concentrations are seen in 2.6-3.6 hours and the mean elimination half-life is 10.1 hours (range 6.4-15 hours)" - http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/research/job185drugs/methamphetamine.htm (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/research/job185drugs/methamphetamine.htm)
Huh, well anyway the FDA and anything from the manufacturer will tell you that the biological half life is 4-5 hours for the Desoxyn 5mg sold today which is I think more along the lines of what the OP was asking about. http://www.drugs.com/pro/desoxyn.html
From link above...
In humans, methamphetamine is rapidly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract. The primary site of metabolism is in the liver by aromatic hydroxylation, N-dealkylation and deamination. At least seven metabolites have been identified in the urine. The biological half-life has been reported in the range of 4 to 5 hours. Excretion occurs primarily in the urine and is dependent on urine pH. Alkaline urine will significantly increase the drug half-life. Approximately 62% of an oral dose is eliminated in the urine within the first 24 hours with about one-third as intact drug and the remainder as metabolites.

ecu20
03-31-09, 01:36 AM
Huh, well anyway the FDA and anything from the manufacturer will tell you that the biological half life is 4-5 hours for the Desoxyn 5mg sold today which is I think more along the lines of what the OP was asking about. http://www.drugs.com/pro/desoxyn.html
From link above...
In humans, methamphetamine is rapidly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract. The primary site of metabolism is in the liver by aromatic hydroxylation, N-dealkylation and deamination. At least seven metabolites have been identified in the urine. The biological half-life has been reported in the range of 4 to 5 hours. Excretion occurs primarily in the urine and is dependent on urine pH. Alkaline urine will significantly increase the drug half-life. Approximately 62% of an oral dose is eliminated in the urine within the first 24 hours with about one-third as intact drug and the remainder as metabolites.

Read the bold. It all depends on what their test subjects took before and after consumption. Odds are they consumed some type of acidic food/drink such as orange juice etc.

I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say that saying methamphetamine's halflife is shorter than amphetamine's halflife is vastly incorrect (which is what you are presuming).

merovingian
03-31-09, 04:10 AM
I'm going to have to go out on a limb and say that saying methamphetamine's halflife is shorter than amphetamine's halflife is vastly incorrect (which is what you are presuming).
I'm not sure how I got on this limb with you comparing methamphetamine's half-life to amphetamine's or why it's relevant. I believe the OP was referring to Desoxyn specifically not methamphetamine's in general.

Wikipedia doesn't seem to support your statement and says...
Methamphetamine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine) 9-15 Hours
Amphetamine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamine) - 12 hour average for d isomer and 13 hour for l
Lundbeck, Inc. (http://www.lundbeckinc.com/products.php?prodid=1) - Clicking on the link named "prescribing information and boxed warning" and then searching the pdf for "half-life" you will find the stated half-life is 4-5 hours. I doubt you will find any reputable website that would dispute this.

But what puzzles me most is how you presumed that I presumed that methamphetamine's half-life is shorter than amphetamine's half-life when I never mentioned any comparison in the only other post I have so far in this thread. Care to explain? And why is your comparison relevant to anything we are talking about or the relevant to the OP's original question about the half life of Desoxyn which my first post had addressed?

ecu20
03-31-09, 05:26 PM
I'm not sure how I got on this limb with you comparing methamphetamine's half-life to amphetamine's or why it's relevant. I believe the OP was referring to Desoxyn specifically not methamphetamine's in general.

Wikipedia doesn't seem to support your statement and says...
Methamphetamine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine) 9-15 Hours
Amphetamine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamine) - 12 hour average for d isomer and 13 hour for l
Lundbeck, Inc. (http://www.lundbeckinc.com/products.php?prodid=1) - Clicking on the link named "prescribing information and boxed warning" and then searching the pdf for "half-life" you will find the stated half-life is 4-5 hours. I doubt you will find any reputable website that would dispute this.

But what puzzles me most is how you presumed that I presumed that methamphetamine's half-life is shorter than amphetamine's half-life when I never mentioned any comparison in the only other post I have so far in this thread. Care to explain?

I don't have the time to argue this, but wikipedia's sources do not even have the information of which they are quoted. Take MAMPH's wiki, it quotes this article for it's halflife. Can you find the halflife?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12507968?dopt=AbstractPlus

Taking wikipedia's statements for facts is dangerous. At best, I recommend using their sources after you confirm what it says. Some of the time, it's just a randomly quoted research page that has nothing to do with the fact.


And why is your comparison relevant to anything we are talking about or the relevant to the OP's original question about the half life of Desoxyn which my first post had addressed?If you had read my post, the halflife was first relevant to his dosing, where his doctor thinks that taking only one dose will be sufficient.

But you responded back 15 days after my post to argue with an unbiased research report on halflife of a drug, and ask how I AM RELEVANT??? REALLY?! :rolleyes:

mbm1512
04-04-09, 02:08 PM
Hey guys, I got another question. For those of you who are currently (or previously) on Desoxyn,how long did you allow yourself to have before sleep time when you took the meds? Yesterday I woke up late, for myself around 1130, and I took the 3 i should've taken plus the 3 i would've taken at noon. At 3 am I was in bed and couldn't sleep because my heart rate was slightly elevated. Not high, but enough to keep me from entering a comfortable pre-sleep state. This is rather obnoxious. My dr. reassured me last week that it is short acting. I took some at 4 pm to study for a test the next day like i would with a short acting adderall, annnnd I didn't sleep that night. Am I the only one that feels like this stuff is active for a good 14-16 hours? Maybe my prescription is too high. What are you guys on? I get 3x2 daily. But i usually take about 2 extra so about 40mg daily. When i was on adderall i took between 60-90 daily

merovingian
04-06-09, 04:01 PM
Can you find the halflife?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12507968?dopt=AbstractPlus
This is the abstract you have linked to, here is the actual published article...
http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/49/1/121#T3
In our study, plasma METH half-lives were not dose dependent. METH half-lives averaged 9.3 3.7 h after the low and 11.1 7.2 h after the high dose, providing an overall mean half-life of 10.0 5.2 h, in agreement with those reported previously (9.1 2.2 h after http://www.clinchem.org/math/sim.gif10 mg/70 kg METH; 1112 h, 11.8 3.3, 13.1 3.8, and 11.2 3.7 h after http://www.clinchem.org/math/sim.gif1518.5 mg/70 kg; 9.1 4.0 h after 30 mg/70 kg; see Table 3http://www.clinchem.org/icons/fig-down.gif (http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/49/1/121#T3) ) (16 (http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/49/1/121#R16))(17 (http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/49/1/121#R17))(18 (http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/49/1/121#R18))(20 (http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/49/1/121#R20))(21 (http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/49/1/121#R21))(22 (http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/49/1/121#R22)). Thus, as expected, the METH half-life was less influenced by drug formulation. As with plasma, the mean oral fluid METH elimination half-lives in our study (7.1 2.3 and 8.1 1.9 h after 10- and 20-mg doses of METH, respectively) were not significantly different between doses and averaged 7.6 2.1 h. Oral fluid elimination half-lives were comparable to those in plasma.

Taking wikipedia's statements for facts is dangerous. At best, I recommend using their sources after you confirm what it says. Some of the time, it's just a randomly quoted research page that has nothing to do with the fact.
I never claimed Wikipedia's support as fact, but in this case the support for the facts were pretty spot on.

If you had read my post, the halflife was first relevant to his dosing, where his doctor thinks that taking only one dose will be sufficient.
And I'm guessing that most doctors don't prescribe it that way as the FDA approved starting dose is 5mg twice daily to be raised by 5mg per day, each week.
My dr. reassured me last week that it is short acting. I took some at 4 pm to study for a test the next day like i would with a short acting adderall, annnnd I didn't sleep that night. Am I the only one that feels like this stuff is active for a good 14-16 hours?
In what seems support of your original claim about the Desoxyn half-life, the numbers seem higher than those claimed in the FDA approved prescription documentation. However, the abstract of the article specifically states they used sustained-release tablets...
Methods: Eight participants received four oral 10-mg S-(+)-METH hydrochloride sustained-release tablets within 7 days. Three weeks later, five participants received four oral 20-mg doses. Blood samples were collected for up to 24 h and oral fluid for up to 72 h after drug administration.Furthermore, the more you take seems to noticeably increase the half-life. See the bottom of the chart for Desoxyn 10mg and 20mg doses... http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/49/1/121/T3

Now if these are in fact sustained-release (yours should be IR), you Doc is probably going by the book assuming a 4-5 hour half-life. It seems plausible to me (a laymen) that perhaps you are very sensitive to the insomnia side effects where you need for instance 90% elimination to be able to sleep but 50% or more to focus? Perhaps you should have your Urine pH tested to see if it's too alkaline which could also be an indication of a separate health issue. Also, perhaps there is a way to highly increase your urine pH for 10-12 hours which might help flush your system when you want to sleep but won't interfere with the following days dose. Just a thought, hope it helps.

merovingian
04-06-09, 10:46 PM
Okay, my last post might seem confusing. First at 40mg daily your about twice what you should be 1 month into treatment which might account for some of your increased insomnia, other than that you might have a problem with the pH of your urine as I said before. It's also possible at your dose that the half-life has increased significantly but I don't think it should be THAT much, have you talked to your doctor about this?

mbm1512
04-07-09, 01:45 AM
What kind of alkaline should one expect on desoxy in a urine test?

merovingian
04-07-09, 04:34 AM
It varies really. I think 7 is normal and swings between 4.5-8 depending on several factors including diet, when and how the test is conducted and if you have any related health conditions.

I wouldn't worry about it, but I would certainly inform my doctor about the insomnia and go ahead and ask if it could be as a result of an imbalance in your Urine pH. Come prepared as she may scoff.

http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/48/10/1703

From the article:
By the way, methamphetamine = (MAMP) and amphetamine = (AMP)
MAMP is excreted primarily in urine, with little biliary excretion of the parent drug or metabolites (20 (http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/48/10/1703#R20)). In normal urine (pH 68), 3754% of a dose is excreted as parent drug and 47% as D-amphetamine (AMP) (21 (http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/48/10/1703#R21))(22 (http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/48/10/1703#R22))(23 (http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/48/10/1703#R23))(24 (http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/48/10/1703#R24)). Each unit increase or decrease in urinary pH produces a respective 7-h increase or decrease in the MAMP plasma half-life (21 (http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/48/10/1703#R21)). Therefore, the percentage of the dose excreted as parent drug can range from as low as 2% in alkaline (pH http://www.clinchem.org/math/ge.gif8.0) to 76% in acidic urine (pH http://www.clinchem.org/math/le.gif5.0). After administration of AMP, urinary excretion of AMP is similarly affected by urinary pH (1% and 74% excretion in alkaline and acidic urine, respectively) (25 (http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/48/10/1703#R25)). It has also been reported that the renal clearance of MAMP exceeds that of the average renal filtration rate, suggesting the involvement of an active transport mechanism in the excretion of MAMP (23 (http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/48/10/1703#R23)).

Might as well ask if this can work in your favor and if you should change your evening diet to clean your system of the Desoxyn so you can sleep at night. I really have no idea if this is a feasible strategy or if it's even healthy and I'm not a doctor, but I think the evidence suggests that it would be worth asking him about. Don't forget that the study is based on using a sustained release methamphetamine with a significantly longer half-life than the 5mg tablets sold by prescription today. Are you by chance a vegitarian or have a diet heavy in veggies, citrus fruits or legumes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legume)? This could also explain an Alkaline urine pH which could cause prolonged effects of the Desoxyn. If you decide to test the cleansing theory, I might recommend cranberry juice about an hour before your pill is supposed to wear off, I've tested it on many a female subject to help lower their urine pH from time to time and it seems to do the job. If you want to really pimp it for the sake of science you could get a home pH tester and measure your results. :cool: I'm curious how long it takes to lower ones pH and for it to get back to normal.

mbm1512
04-07-09, 09:34 AM
Good ideas! I have recently adopted a diet that has transitioned from mostly proteins from dairy and meats, to intaking about 2/3 of my diet as fruits and veggies and 1/3 meats and dairy. This is just in an effort to help my cross training, but also to help with the draining effects of desoxyn. I was under the impression that vitamin c weakens the effects of this medication. Are you saying that it doesn't?

merovingian
04-07-09, 10:13 PM
I was under the impression that vitamin c weakens the effects of this medication. Are you saying that it doesn't?
Well, I'm not clear on the facts but my loose understanding is that calcium ascorbate which is a type of vitamin C will alkalize the blood and therefore cause your urine to be acidic where as ascorbic acid which is another type of vitamin C does the opposite, seems backwards right? Again, I need to do more research to verify any of this, however, if that is true than it would seem to suggest that depending on which vitamin C you are using, the supplement could push the pH in either direction.

My interest in vitamin C is mainly as an anti-oxidant which as I understand it crosses the blood brain barrier and may help reduce neurotoxicity from H202 that may possibly stem from long term use of these sort of psychoactive drugs. Don't quote me on any of this cause at this point I really don't KNOW if any of this is true or should even be of concern if the medication is taken as prescribed.

Yellow
05-19-09, 12:26 AM
do any of you, or do any of oyu know anyone on desoxyn who also is treated with an SNRI or SSRI?

longtrmADD243
09-04-12, 07:24 PM
I think if you read the poster's comment, you would realize that he is pointing out the irony of the original poster CLAIMING he had a mixup at the pharmacy pertaining to two of the most controlled, regulated, watched, and documented drugs in the pharmacy (amphetamine and methamphetamine).

Pharmacies don't just "mess up" prescriptions, let alone highly abusable schedule II substances that would cause the DEA to swoop down faster than you could imagine when they report a loss of a month's worth of desoxyn missing from it.
What he meant is that he went to the doctor to get a new adderall prescription, but the doctor ended up writing one for Desoxyn instead. You misunderstood what he meant because pharmacies don't allow you to keep multiple refills for those two medications. You have to bring in a hardcopy each and every time you need a refill.