View Full Version : Anyone with LD-NO, or non-verbal LD, or competing diagnoses?


APSJ
04-07-09, 03:00 PM
I'm curious as to whether anyone else on the forum has learning issues in addition to ADHD that include a nonverbal learning disability or learning disability-not otherwise specified, or has had trouble getting a consistent diagnosis.

My ADD(as it was then known), was diagnosed early on. I was also later diagnosed variously with "right hemisphere dysfunction" a non-verbal learning disability, and learning disability -NOS(visual memory impairment).

The first, I think, is a no longer used term, the latter two were based on evaluations that each ruled the other out. I've never met anyone else with either, at least that I know of, and would really like to hear about how others with similar issues have experienced them.

I was told by one person familiar with my situation that I'm just "neuroatypical" and don't fit into any of the standard categories. This makes me wonder how useful some of these categories are, particularly for non-verbal issues.

On the one hand, the "NOS" label is a little frustrating, because it feels a little like doctor code for "who knows?" If I saw "bacterial infection-NOS" on my medical chart, I'd be rather alarmed.

On the other hand, if these things are more a matter of where people fall on a spectrum, than discrete medical conditions, its actually more accurate than trying to shoehorn them into an accepted category.

APSJ
04-07-09, 05:40 PM
Visual memory impairment in action: I previewed this thread and completely missed the lack of an S in LD-NOS. How appropriate.

TygerSan
04-09-09, 11:55 AM
The LD-NOS diagnosis comes into play b/c non-verbal learning disorder is not a possible diagnosis in the DSM-IV (diagnostics and statistical manual, 4th edition) . . . so it means that there is a learning disability present, but it doesn't fit "neatly" into any of the pre-defined diagnostic boxes. . . they may add the NVLD syndrome to the next edition of the DSM, but I don't know if that's in the works or not. It's sort of like PDD-NOS, means that you're autistic-like but have enough other quirks that the diagnosis doesn't fit 100%.

I was diagnosed as having an LD in visuo-motor processing, which I believe makes me kind of NLD-ish.

A lot of ADHDer's show right-hemisphere dysfunction as well . . . I'm always a little confused by the overlap btw ADHD and NVLD.

APSJ
04-09-09, 06:31 PM
The LD-NOS diagnosis comes into play b/c non-verbal learning disorder is not a possible diagnosis in the DSM-IV (diagnostics and statistical manual, 4th edition) . . . so it means that there is a learning disability present, but it doesn't fit "neatly" into any of the pre-defined diagnostic boxes. . . they may add the NVLD syndrome to the next edition of the DSM, but I don't know if that's in the works or not. It's sort of like PDD-NOS, means that you're autistic-like but have enough other quirks that the diagnosis doesn't fit 100%.

I see, so the LD-NOS diagnosis is(or can be) a NVLD diagnosis , that explains a lot.

I was diagnosed as having an LD in visuo-motor processing, which I believe makes me kind of NLD-ish.

A lot of ADHDer's show right-hemisphere dysfunction as well . . . I'm always a little confused by the overlap btw ADHD and NVLD.


I read in another thread on this forum that some people with ADHD are good at picking up on non-verbal communication. This is where I've come to think the NVLD comes in for me, as I'm very poor at this unless I'm with someone I've spent a lot of time around. I also physically carry myself differently than most people, I feel like my movements are much more deliberate, particularly in social situations, where I have to work at appearing appropriately serious or relaxed, making eye contact, and having an approrpiate facial expression(to name a few things).

I never had brain imaging done, so I'm not sure where the right hemisphere dysfunction came from. It doesn't seem like a very helpful diagnosis("we've narrowed it down to this half of your brain")

QueensU_girl
04-10-09, 01:08 PM
I think the thing with NVLD not being in the DSM is that it is hard to describe it. Other kids can pick up on kids with it, as they sense them as being 'weird' and not fitting in.

NVLD sounds like it also has what doctors call "neurological soft signs", IIRC.

APSJ
04-12-09, 04:14 PM
Other kids can pick up on kids with it, as they sense them as being 'weird' and not fitting in.

This was certainly true for me, and remains true today. I can act fairly normally in certain settings, but although I don't say inappropriate things, or do anything overtly unusual, I think my expressions, tone of voice, and posture, are always a little off, and I can see that people react to me differently.

Losti
04-13-09, 06:53 AM
Good to see a thread in this sub-forum. I was diagnosed with a receptive and expressive language disorder at 6. My non-verbal IQ also appears to be inbetween the 10 to 20 percentile according to wechsler tests.

APSJ
04-13-09, 06:19 PM
Good to see a thread in this sub-forum. I was diagnosed with a receptive and expressive language disorder at 6. My non-verbal IQ also appears to be inbetween the 10 to 20 percentile according to wechsler tests.

Do you know if your nonverbal subtests were basically the same or if there were a few that were particularly difficult? I have a 26 point difference between verbal and peformance IQ, but looking at the individual subtests, the difference between my lowest performance subtest and my highest verbal subtest is 11 points(which I think is equivalent to a 110 point discrepancy since the full scores have a mean of 100 and the subtests of 10). I'd love to see a breakdown of what each component test of wechler is supposed to be evaluating.

Losti
04-15-09, 06:55 AM
Alright i don't normally do this, but here are my results for you guys to see and perhaps discuss or relate with. The results were for me at age 6, 8 and 10. Some results are left out as i may not have been tested for it at some ages. As you can see i did have struggles with non-verbal skills (and still do), but was never diagnosed with NLD, just ADHD and a language disorder, affecting my receptive and expressive skills.

My Verbal, Non-verbal and full scale IQ by age.
http://img4.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iqreal.jpg
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My percentile within Non-verbal subtests by age.
http://img4.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iqperfour.jpg (http://img4.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iqpercentilee.jpg)

My percentile within Verbal subtests by age.
[URL]http://img4.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iqvb.jpg

The Verbal Comprehension Index includes four tests:

Similarities: Abstract verbal reasoning (e.g., "In what way are an apple and a pear alike?")
Vocabulary: The degree to which one has learned, been able to comprehend and verbally express vocabulary (e.g., "What is a guitar?")
Information : Degree of general information acquired from culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture) (e.g., "Who is the president of Russia?")
Comprehension [Supplemental]: Ability to deal with abstract social conventions, rules and expressions (e.g., "What does Kill 2 birds with 1 stone metaphorically mean?")
The Perceptual Reasoning Index comprises five tests

Block Design (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_design_test): Spatial perception, visual abstract processing & problem solving
Matrix Reasoning: Nonverbal abstract problem solving, inductive reasoning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning), spatial reasoning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_awareness)
Visual Puzzles: non-verbal reasoning
Picture Completion [Supplemental]: Ability to quickly perceive visual details
Figure Weights [Supplemental]: quantitative and analogical reasoning
^ The above is for the ADULT Wechsler IQ test. Below are for the Childrens one which i took.

The VCI's subtests are as follows:

Vocabulary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocabulary) - straightforward questions over the meaning of words
Similarities - asking how two concepts are alike
Comprehension (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehension) - questions about social situations or common concepts
Information (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information) (supplemental) - general knowledge questions
Word Reasoning (supplemental) - children are presented with one to three riddle-style clues and asked to determine what the tester is describing.
The PRI's subtests are as follows:

Block Design - children put together red-and-white blocks in a pattern according to a displayed model. This is timed, and some of the more difficult puzzles award bonuses for speed.
Picture Concepts - children are shown rows of pictures, and are asked to find a common bond with one picture in each row.
Matrix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix) Reasoning - children are shown an array of pictures with one missing square, and select the picture that fits the array from five options.
Picture Completion (supplemental) - children are shown artwork of common objects with a missing part, and asked to identify the missing part by pointing and/or naming.
The WMI's subtests are as follows:

Digit Span (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_Span) - children are orally given sequences of numbers and asked to repeat them, either as heard or in reverse order.
Letter-Number Sequencing - children are orally given sequences of letters and numbers together, and asked to repeat them in both numerical order and alphabetical order.
Arithmetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic) (supplemental) - orally administered arithmetic questions. Timed.
The PSI's subtests are as follows:

Coding - children under 8 mark rows of shapes with different lines according to a code, children over 8 transcribe a digit-symbol code. Time-limited with bonuses for speed.
Symbol Search - children are given rows of symbols and target symbols, and asked to mark whether or not the target symbols appear in each row.
Cancellation (supplemental) - students are to mark lines through objects that do not belong in a page of randomly-arranged objects and one of orthogonally-arranged objects.
All from wikipedia.

APSJ
04-15-09, 09:31 AM
Alright i don't normally do this, but here are my results for you guys to see and perhaps discuss or relate with. The results were for me at age 6, 8 and 10. Some results are left out as i may not have been tested for it at some ages. As you can see i did have struggles with non-verbal skills (and still do), but was never diagnosed with NLD, just ADHD and a language disorder, affecting my receptive and expressive skills.

I've always thought that "full scale IQ" was not particularly meaningful, and your results certainly seem to support that, as your verbal and performance overall are in the same range, but your subtest scores are very different.

Comparing your results to my most recent(also on the children's test, at 15), I also had my lowest score on picture arrangement, and I got the same score on coding, but I only did slightly better on block design, which is one of your highest scores. My highest non-verbal was object assembly.

On verbal, comprehension and similarities were my highest scores, while arithmetic was significantly lower.

In my case, the lower scores are attributed(according to this evalutation) to memory problems, which is supported by significantly below average "visual immediate" and "visual delayed" scores on the children's memory scale.

Its interesting that we both got such poor scores on the picture arrangement and coding subtests, given the other differences, and different diagnoses. The problems I attribute to my NLD or LD-NOS, as opposed to my ADHD, are all social. In addition to missing or misreading non-verbal cues consistently, I often have a "flat affect"(I'm constantly asked what's wrong, or why I'm not happy when something good happens.) I also rarely laugh, and never when not with people I know well(although the latter is partly self-conditioning, as if I did, it would be a socially innappropriate times).

Thanks for posting the info about the subtests.

TygerSan
04-15-09, 10:14 AM
I also have a big gap between most of my Verbal and Performance scores (IIRC, around 50 points). But in my case, I think some of it has more to do with the speed at which I do the tasks more than not comprehending the tasks. (not true for the block design, though, I just suck at that kind of stuff). I also had problems in the verbal section with the digit span (#'s backwards) and the oral arithmetic (working memory impairment, anyone?). It's been so long since I've been tested, I don't really remember how I did with the coding and sequencing, but apparently not very well.

NEWLYNLD
04-21-09, 07:45 PM
Hello:

I was tested about six years ago, but never really knew what to do with the information (except get accommodations for grad school). I recently was told by a counselor that my profile falls into the category of NVLD. I decided to go to this counselor because I am scared to reenter the work world. I have posted on various forums with the following:

I am still shaky about being categorized as someone with NVLD. I do exhibit some of the classic symptoms discussed online. I have a 40 point difference between my verbal comprehension and perceptual organization scores (in favor of verbal). I have terrible visual-spatial and fine-motor skills, weak visual memory, poor organization and time management skills, and a weak working memory. This has led to obvious problems in areas such as math, handwriting, tying shoes as a child, etc. I am quite bad with directions, though not to the point of being incapacitated (i.e., I can drive a car and get around fine). I simply cannot remember street names, and have some difficulty, compared to others, remembering which roads to turn down. Ultimately, though, I wouldn't consider this to be a huge deficit, since I still get to where I need to go, and don't often get lost.

On the other hand, I believe I am competent in some areas that seem critical to a NVLD diagnosis. For example, socially, I have never really had much of a problem: I am able to grasp facial expressions, irony, sarcasm, humor, etc. I do have social anxiety that has seemed to worsen over the years. I feel, though, that this is due more to my learning disabilities, rather than any weaknesses in social perception. Also, I have been very athletic my whole life, and this too does not seem to fit with an NVLD diagnosis. I read somewhere that children diagnosed with NVLD don't like to play with blocks or Legos; I was obsessed with both (though, I don't know how adept I was at building with them).

Overall, this problem weighs heavily on me. I just completed my Master's degree, but I am terrified of reentering the work force. I was let go at a job out of college because of inattention to visual detail, and I am convinced that I am going to be screwed again. I believe that I am a reasonably intelligent person (I am in the superior range for verbal ability). I guess my main problem with this diagnosis is that seems that social problems are a primary symptom of NVLD, but I donít feel that I really experience this at all. I have had many friends over my lifetime and no teacher, friend, or colleague has ever noticed anything out of the ordinary (at least not to my knowledge :)

If anyone wants to discuss this diagnosis, please let me know!

APSJ
04-21-09, 07:56 PM
On the other hand, I believe I am competent in some areas that seem critical to a NVLD diagnosis. For example, socially, I have never really had much of a problem: I am able to grasp facial expressions, irony, sarcasm, humor, etc. I do have social anxiety that has seemed to worsen over the years. I feel, though, that this is due more to my learning disabilities, rather than any weaknesses in social perception. Also, I have been very athletic my whole life, and this too does not seem to fit with an NVLD diagnosis. I read somewhere that children diagnosed with NVLD don't like to play with blocks or Legos; I was obsessed with both (though, I don't know how adept I was at building with them).


I loved legos and blocks as well. I also have no problem with irony or sarcasm. Humor I can have trouble with, but I may just had an odd sense of humor. I do have social problems, but their origin is not entirely clear to me. Once I get to know someone well, I'm fine with them, and it was suggested to me that this means I don't have NLD. I think the memory issue is the most significant for me socially, as it keeps me, for example, from remembering faces, or quickly identifying them.

NEWLYNLD
04-21-09, 08:06 PM
Interesting, I was always told that the social component was essential. I totally agree that memory makes social situations difficult, though it in a different sense for me. I can remember faces fine, it is conversation that can be difficult. I frequently don't remember a lot of the things that my friends do, and consequently feel embarrassed. I can't make connections to past experiences quickly enough. My counselor believes that my memory is ok, but that I have difficulty making connections for fluid conversation.

APSJ
04-21-09, 08:22 PM
Interesting, I was always told that the social component was essential. I totally agree that memory makes social situations difficult, though it in a different sense for me. I can remember faces fine, it is conversation that can be difficult. I frequently don't remember a lot of the things that my friends do, and consequently feel embarrassed. I can't make connections to past experiences quickly enough. My counselor believes that my memory is ok, but that I have difficulty making connections for fluid conversation.

I generally don't have trouble remembering things my friends do, unless my ADHD prevented me from hearing about them in the first place, but I do sometimes fail to make connections that seem obvious between what someone is talking about currently and a past experience they had, unless I'm alerted to consider it in that context. For example, if I talk to someone at work one week about an event that they're going to, and then I see them a week later, and they say "so it went really well, I'm really happy about it" I will often have no idea what they are talking about and will assume it has to do with what they are currently doing(ie work), instead of putting it in the context of our last interaction.

APSJ
04-22-09, 11:56 AM
I've been trying to think of examples of experiences that seem to reflect my LD rather than my ADHD. I think of them now and then, but then quickly forget, but one just occurred to me.

I had the HARDEST time learning division, because my teachers kept telling me that its the opposite of multiplication. For years, I couldn't understand this. I thought "multiplication means that you have this number, this many times, so the opposite of that would be NOT having this number this many times." For example, the opposite of 8 x 8, as far as I could tell would be 8 not x 8. It seemed self evident that the opposite of multiplying 8 by 8 was not multiplying 8 by 8, so 8 / 8 must be 8. Although I was taught the proper steps to divide numbers, I never really understood what they meant until a better teacher eventually sat down with me, and explained that dividing a number by X was dividing a number into X number of groups.

TygerSan
04-22-09, 05:16 PM
On the other hand, I believe I am competent in some areas that seem critical to a NVLD diagnosis. For example, socially, I have never really had much of a problem: I am able to grasp facial expressions, irony, sarcasm, humor, etc. I do have social anxiety that has seemed to worsen over the years. I feel, though, that this is due more to my learning disabilities, rather than any weaknesses in social perception. Also, I have been very athletic my whole life, and this too does not seem to fit with an NVLD diagnosis. I read somewhere that children diagnosed with NVLD don't like to play with blocks or Legos; I was obsessed with both (though, I don't know how adept I was at building with them).

I kind of have a theory about this. . . If you go back to the primary literature about NLD (I'm talking Byron Rourke here), and look at the group of ppl he used for his catalouging of the syndrome, the *highest* full scale IQ in the group is one of 70, with a VIQ in the *low* average range, and a PIQ of much lower than that. I think he also based alot of his theory on ppl with genetic syndromes like William's syndrome. I just can't help thinking that those of us with higher verbal "abilities" may also have better coping mechanisms that allow us to do things like metaphor processing, and parsing social situations, albeit in a "different" way.

(coming as someone who's thought processes have always been a little bit skewed)

NEWLYNLD
04-30-09, 12:13 PM
Thanks Tyger,

Your theory is an interesting one: maybe introduce it to an academic and they can conduct a study :)

For better or worse, I have been obsessing over my diagnosis since learning about it. I have emailed some professionals in the field, and have spoken to another professional (who knows me personally, and briefly went over my testing).

Some have said that, without the social component, the NVLD diagnosis is not useful. Another professional told me that my profile fit that of NVLD, but that having social difficulties would imply Aspergers.

I know I shouldn't be overly concerned with a 'label' per se, though, for me, it seems easier to explain my difficulties to others with this term, rather than saying something like, "yeah, I suck at visual stuff."

APSJ
04-30-09, 03:28 PM
Some have said that, without the social component, the NVLD diagnosis is not useful. Another professional told me that my profile fit that of NVLD, but that having social difficulties would imply Aspergers.

I know I shouldn't be overly concerned with a 'label' per se, though, for me, it seems easier to explain my difficulties to others with this term, rather than saying something like, "yeah, I suck at visual stuff."

I've been told different things as well. One person said that I had NVLD, another that my social problems weren't severe enough to warrant that diagnosis, and suggested that the best label for me was just 'neuroatypical'.

I say I have NVLD for the sake of simplicity, because its marginally easier to explain than 'visual memory impairment' and 'neuroatypical' is a bit too broad(and I'm not sure if its technically a real word). I've actually never told anybody I don't know well about the NVLD. In general, I reveal as little about my disorders as I can. I explain that I have fine motor problems when needed to explain my handwriting, and I tell people that I have ADHD occassionally, but I feel like NVLD, aside from being poorly defined and very hard to explain, has somewhat more of a stigma attached to it than ADHD.

angie1960
04-30-09, 04:07 PM
My daughter was diagnoses with NVLD - and it morphed into a personality disorder. We were told she did not have ADD but I think it's strange that she grew up to self medicate with METH and now my granddaughter who I am raising had ADHD and is taking "speed" to combat this. -- very strange

DTownDave22
02-08-10, 11:25 PM
Didn't read over this article yet, but thought you might find it of interest. http://jcn.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/12/2/107

I'm starting to suspect I may have some features of a non-verbal learning disorder but I'm such a visual learner, but I have aspects of my spatial and visual abilities that seem off though as I may have mentioned in another thread.

chips
02-09-10, 08:20 AM
I was diagnosed ADHD-C with significant co-morbid NVLD by a psychiatrist that specialises in ADHD last year. At the time of my asessment it showed I had quite a problem with reading out loud, phonetic dsylexia & miss or not read what it is in front of me as my brain is way ahead of my verbal abilites in reading. But I have a great ability to spell. I can spell these huge words but for the life of I can't pronounce them. I just can't get the word out & get very frustrated.

During the assessment I was told I had some Asperger's but ended up being classified with NVLD as I had too much empathy.

I have always had a lot of problems with fitting in socially & constantly feel very awkard. I never know how I am supposed to react in social situations so I tend never to speak to anyone. When people do speak to me I am constantly trying to work out what I am supposed to say. I really have no idea.

I have great difficulty in expressing my emotions & the only real way I can do this is by writing them down. To tell someone in person is so very difficult. Emotions for me can be either in excess or not there at all. It really does depend on the situation for me. For example when a family member got hurt I didn't get upset as I felt nothing but I was on the phone calling for assistance. I can be very level headed in these situations but detached from feeling.

Eye contact for me has also been a big issue. I feel like it hurts for me to look at people in the eye when I speak to them as well as trying to think & listen I can't look at people as I am trying to concentrate so much on what they are trying to tell me.

I have a real difficulty with spatial awareness. I have no idea of size for example in area & get lost very very easily. I can be told so many times or go to somewhere & still have no idea of where I am!

There are other things but can't think what they are at the moment!

ADHDKylee
05-18-10, 08:37 PM
I'm diagnosed with NLD... I don't find it to be all that useful because no one has ever really heard of it at my school therefore I don't get much understanding or help. I get more help for my ADHD because everyone knows what that is. I also developed BPD from having untreated ADHD and NLD and childhood emotional abuse apparently. Some people say that it really depends on who you go to... If you go to a psychologist like I did, they will diagnose NLD, but psychiatrists are more likely to diagnose Asperger's. My psychologist tells me there aren't many differences and so she's having me tested by the psychiatrist for AS as well because apparently it's also possible to have both. I find it all confusing. Especially the name, seeing as it doesn't just affect learning... It affects almost all aspects of life.

Werl
05-19-10, 01:55 PM
I have dyslexia. Hence my other screen name is aixelsyD (the capital 'D' is a must for the joke).

TygerSan
05-19-10, 03:08 PM
I'm diagnosed with NLD... I don't find it to be all that useful because no one has ever really heard of it at my school therefore I don't get much understanding or help. I get more help for my ADHD because everyone knows what that is. I also developed BPD from having untreated ADHD and NLD and childhood emotional abuse apparently. Some people say that it really depends on who you go to... If you go to a psychologist like I did, they will diagnose NLD, but psychiatrists are more likely to diagnose Asperger's. My psychologist tells me there aren't many differences and so she's having me tested by the psychiatrist for AS as well because apparently it's also possible to have both. I find it all confusing. Especially the name, seeing as it doesn't just affect learning... It affects almost all aspects of life.
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NLD isn't in the DSM-IV (nor will it be in the DSM-V apparently). Since it's neither officially recognized as a syndrome by the psychiatric "bible" nor a well-known entity in the educational world, it's an extremely frustrating diagnosis to have, IMHO.

I have no idea how I first stumbled across NLD, but it describes more of me than just about any other diagnosis . . . I'm not quite inattentive enough to be ADHD, not nearly impaired enough socially to be on the autism spectrum. I also have visual-spatial memory and reasoning deficits, so that doesn't fit ASD either.

That said, when I was younger I did kind of have weird, almost obsessive interests (my mom used to read me the red cross first aid handbook as a bedtime story), but not to the extent that I wouldn't talk about anything else. I don't really have that obsessive an interest now, though.

ADHDKylee
05-19-10, 04:48 PM
NLD isn't in the DSM-IV (nor will it be in the DSM-V apparently). Since it's neither officially recognized as a syndrome by the psychiatric "bible" nor a well-known entity in the educational world, it's an extremely frustrating diagnosis to have, IMHO.

I have no idea how I first stumbled across NLD, but it describes more of me than just about any other diagnosis . . . I'm not quite inattentive enough to be ADHD, not nearly impaired enough socially to be on the autism spectrum. I also have visual-spatial memory and reasoning deficits, so that doesn't fit ASD either.

That said, when I was younger I did kind of have weird, almost obsessive interests (my mom used to read me the red cross first aid handbook as a bedtime story), but not to the extent that I wouldn't talk about anything else. I don't really have that obsessive an interest now, though.

My social problems are that I'm either too outgoing or too shy and I don't usually approach anyone first. I have a hard time making eye contact and reading people's facial expressions, body language, and tone of voice. It depends who the person is though. I also never know what to talk about... I usually dominate the conversation and talk about psychology or cats, two things which I can spend all my time talking or thinking about and never get bored.

I also flap my hands and twist my fingers at times as well and I think and remember most things in pictures and by using pictures... Which is why I don't understand how I have NLD. I have no idea of people would consider my impairments severe enough to be on the spectrum, but my parents always said my obsessive interests, need for routine and rituals, and social problems always stood out to them the most.

I think they honestly might as well just put NLD as the same thing as Asperger's really, and have two different types of it or something. Not everyone with AS is good visually anyway... I really don't understand it. I do know that NLD is a pointless thing to say you have though seeing as no one knows what it is or understands it.

Werl
05-19-10, 08:10 PM
Does dyslexia count?

TygerSan
05-20-10, 08:57 AM
Yup, dyslexia is a co-existing condition and an LD. Welcome :)

This particular thread is mostly about NLD b/c that's where it veered. . . It is, however one of the few active threads in this subsection. Unfortunately this particular sub-section of the forum isn't as active as some of the others.

Werl
05-20-10, 11:19 AM
My dyslexia is a nonverbal learning disorder.

ADHDKylee
05-20-10, 05:42 PM
My dyslexia is a nonverbal learning disorder.

What do you mean?

Werl
05-20-10, 06:01 PM
my bad, I googled 'NLD' and read an exert from an article. not understanding what they meant by 'non-verbal' thinking that it means that your ability to speak is unaffected. Sorry.

Princess Moon
05-21-10, 12:14 AM
I was not diagnosed with NLD, but I think I might have it, I have some of the symptoms. I have defecits in fine motor skills and visual-spatial skills and was really bad at math. I was diagnosed with Learning Disorder NOS. I have bad handwriting, I'm bad at driving, I drop and spill things sometimes, I got lost a lot, I have a bad visual memory, I have trouble recognizing faces, but I can read nonverbal communication, I understand sarcasm and social nuances and don't take things literally and don't talk in monotone and didn't have the same type of social trouble that others had. I have a lot of NLD symptoms, though. I think I might have a mild case of NLD that went undiagnosed. They called what I had Learning Disorder NOS. I have weaknesses in fine motor skills and visual-spatial skills. I was bad at making arts and crafts and jewelry and stuff. I think my learning disability can't really fit into one category. I think I seemed too normal to get diagnosed with NLD, but I had a lot of the symptoms, I couldn't draw a line with a ruler, I was really bad at art and drawing. I have deficits in fine motor skills and visual-spatial skills, but my gross motor skills were fine and I don't take things literally and understand social cues, I have some NLD symptoms. My visual-spatial organization is a weakness.

Princess Moon
05-21-10, 02:39 AM
My weaknesses are fine motor skills (bad handwriting, bad at art, bad at drawing, bad with using glue or scissors, bad at making jewelry, dropping and spilling objects) visual-spatial skills (bad at driving, getting lost, remembering faces) and visual-spatial organization (I have bad organizational skills) I am bad at math and science. However, I did not have a lot of the other weaknesses people with NLD have. I can read nonverbal communication fine, I didn't have the same types of social troubles a lot of NLD kids have and never was diagnosed with NLD but instead with Learning Disorder NOS. I think I have something in between ADD and NLD. I think ADD and NLD are similar. I have many NLD symptoms, but there are also NLD symptoms I don't have. So who knows? Maybe I have some type of learning disability where you have weaknesses in organization, fine motor skills, visual-spatial skills, attention and visual-spatial organization. There's probably so many undefined learning disabilities.

Werl
05-21-10, 08:05 AM
Sounds like you have a case of dyslexia. Except for the since, math, and driving that is exactally what I am.

TygerSan
05-21-10, 08:50 AM
Yeah, it's really hard to figure out where LD's of any sort end and ADHD begins. . . there's so much overlap.

Werl is saying that he has many of the same weaknesses as us, except for perhaps some difficulty with reading (NLD ppl tend to be quite good at the reading stuff, except for some comprehension issues. Decoding tends to be above average). . .

I am similar to Princess Moon except I'm pretty good at the math and science. . . the math is hard sometimes b/c I don't have very much in the way of spatial working memory, which means I get lost easily with multi-step problems.

I still would like to get someone to study ppl with NLD-like symptoms with high(er) IQ, as a lot of what is written is about ppl with very borderline IQ's so weaknesses like metaphor processing and figurative language may be less apparent in those who have the cognitive capacity to override the literalness of their own brains (if that makes sense at all?)

ADHDKylee
05-21-10, 04:02 PM
I think most psychologists now require you to have social deficits to be diagnosed as NLD but I'm not quite sure. Mine says I have two different types of NLD. Perceptual NLD and Social NLD. So you would think you don't need social deficits to be diagnosed with NLD. I know my psychologist told me once... I should probably ask her again... I know it was my social deficits that stood out and got me the testing but I'm not too sure if it's required for a diagnosis.

stanwshura
05-21-10, 07:18 PM
Actually, since dyslexia is a disability in which one has difficulty processing(written) language, and Nonverbal Learning Disability is a disability defined, often among other things, as a difficulty processing, interpretting, understanding (or sometimes in my case even *perceiving* - at least to the level of conscious awareness) *nonverbal* information/stimuli/input, the latter cannot be defined as a type or variant of the former.

The two are among the "invisible" disabilities - those not immediately obvious to most of the general public - but that is where their similarities end.

-stan

APSJ
05-26-10, 07:09 PM
I was diagnosed ADHD-C with significant co-morbid NVLD by a psychiatrist that specialises in ADHD last year. At the time of my asessment it showed I had quite a problem with reading out loud, phonetic dsylexia & miss or not read what it is in front of me as my brain is way ahead of my verbal abilites in reading. But I have a great ability to spell. I can spell these huge words but for the life of I can't pronounce them. I just can't get the word out & get very frustrated.

That's interesting, I've never had issues with reading out loud, at least that aren't clearly attributable to anxiety, or with pronunciation, in general. However, I occasionally mispronounce an unfamiliar word thats composed of two familiar ones because I don't notice that it's made of two words, which govern how it's pronounced. Can't seem to think of an example at the moment.

I'm a good speller generally, but occasionally make bizarre mistakes, which always make sense phonetically. I remember, for example, that in second grade i got airplane wrong on a spelling test by spelling it 'aeroplane'.

During the assessment I was told I had some Asperger's but ended up being classified with NVLD as I had too much empathy.

For some reason Asperger's was never considered for me, and the only explanation I've gotten is that my social issues weren't serious enough.

I have always had a lot of problems with fitting in socially & constantly feel very awkard. I never know how I am supposed to react in social situations so I tend never to speak to anyone. When people do speak to me I am constantly trying to work out what I am supposed to say. I really have no idea.

This pretty much describes how I am around others I don't know well. What's perhaps most frustrating is that I really can't tell how I'm doing. It's inevitably the days where I feel like I'm succeeding in seeming normal that someone points out my awkwardness.

I have great difficulty in expressing my emotions & the only real way I can do this is by writing them down. To tell someone in person is so very difficult. Emotions for me can be either in excess or not there at all. It really does depend on the situation for me. For example when a family member got hurt I didn't get upset as I felt nothing but I was on the phone calling for assistance. I can be very level headed in these situations but detached from feeling.

This could largely apply to me as well. I can get overwhelming emotional responses to seemingly trivial things (always negative), but other times seem cold to others, or even myself. The hurt family member situation is one where I seem to detach. I think, for me, that it may be something of a defense mechanism.

Eye contact for me has also been a big issue. I feel like it hurts for me to look at people in the eye when I speak to them as well as trying to think & listen I can't look at people as I am trying to concentrate so much on what they are trying to tell me.

I've gotten much better at this, but always have to consciously control it. First, I have to remember to make eye contact, then to look away periodically to avoid seeming creepy, etc., but doing this makes it even harder than usual for me to attend to what someone is saying.

I have a real difficulty with spatial awareness. I have no idea of size for example in area & get lost very very easily. I can be told so many times or go to somewhere & still have no idea of where I am!

Yep, me too. Have to be very careful crossing the street, as I'm horrible at gauging how soon an approaching vehicle will reach the crosswalk. I also bump into things pretty constantly unless I'm really familiar with my surroundings (like at home).

Some people say that it really depends on who you go to... If you go to a psychologist like I did, they will diagnose NLD, but psychiatrists are more likely to diagnose Asperger's. My psychologist tells me there aren't many differences and so she's having me tested by the psychiatrist for AS as well because apparently it's also possible to have both. I find it all confusing. Especially the name, seeing as it doesn't just affect learning... It affects almost all aspects of life.

I was being seen by psychologists and a psychiatrist when I was diagnosed, and as best I can tell, the two relevant diagnoses were NLD by one psychologist, and LD-NOS-visual memory impairment by another. I wish I could find what the psychiatrists view was, or if he just followed along.

I think it makes sense to think of it as a learning disability if you think about it in terms of learning spatial information, social cues, etc. as opposed to knowledge. I feel like there are non-trivial differences between NLD and Asperger's, particularly regarding empathy and spatial awareness, and I can more generally relate to written accounts of experiences written by those diagnosed with NLD than those written by people diagnosed with AD, but its not always the case. Of course, given the similarities there's got to be a lot of misdiagnosis in both directions assuming they are distinct conditions.

NLD isn't in the DSM-IV (nor will it be in the DSM-V apparently). Since it's neither officially recognized as a syndrome by the psychiatric "bible" nor a well-known entity in the educational world, it's an extremely frustrating diagnosis to have, IMHO.

I agree entirely. It seems like it will fall under Autism Spectrum Disorder in the DSM 5, just going by the symptoms, but I have to think that the huge jumble of people being brought under that umbrella is going to be a big step backwords as far as understanding the differences between the conditions of those now diagnosed with separate conditions.

I have no idea how I first stumbled across NLD, but it describes more of me than just about any other diagnosis . . . I'm not quite inattentive enough to be ADHD, not nearly impaired enough socially to be on the autism spectrum. I also have visual-spatial memory and reasoning deficits, so that doesn't fit ASD either.

My ADHD diagnosis was an easy one, and I don't question it. I don't think there's a single symptom that I dont have, and that I haven't at one time or another had to a degree that was significantly impairing. I don't think inattentiveness of the variety involved in ADHD is a symptom of NLD, although I know there are various lists of symptoms, since there's no official criteria.

I also find it frustrating that one needs to meet the criteria for one condition or another in order to be diagnosed and treated. I've never seen a shred of research suggesting that all significant, and impairing, neurological differences necesarrilly will fall into easily defined categories, and frankly, it seems rather counterintuitive that they would.

My social problems are that I'm either too outgoing or too shy and I don't usually approach anyone first. I have a hard time making eye contact and reading people's facial expressions, body language, and tone of voice. It depends who the person is though. I also never know what to talk about... I usually dominate the conversation and talk about psychology or cats, two things which I can spend all my time talking or thinking about and never get bored.

I'm never too outgoing, although perhaps was as a kid at times, but the rest pretty well matches my experience...if given an opening to talk about something that especially interests me I can go on forever, and tend to forget that others might not care to know as much as I do about something.

I also flap my hands and twist my fingers at times as well and I think and remember most things in pictures and by using pictures... Which is why I don't understand how I have NLD. I have no idea of people would consider my impairments severe enough to be on the spectrum, but my parents always said my obsessive interests, need for routine and rituals, and social problems always stood out to them the most.

I get strong fixations on topics or activities as well, and am not sure where the ADHD hyperfocus ends and the ASD/NLD special interests start, or if they're one or the other or a combination of the two.

I do strange repetitive things sometimes that seem somewhat similar to stimming behavior, but doesn't quite match up with the accounts I've read by those with AD or Autism.

My weaknesses are fine motor skills (bad handwriting, bad at art, bad at drawing, bad with using glue or scissors, bad at making jewelry, dropping and spilling objects) visual-spatial skills (bad at driving, getting lost, remembering faces) and visual-spatial organization (I have bad organizational skills) I am bad at math and science. However, I did not have a lot of the other weaknesses people with NLD have. I can read nonverbal communication fine, I didn't have the same types of social troubles a lot of NLD kids have and never was diagnosed with NLD but instead with Learning Disorder NOS. I think I have something in between ADD and NLD. I think ADD and NLD are similar. I have many NLD symptoms, but there are also NLD symptoms I don't have. So who knows? Maybe I have some type of learning disability where you have weaknesses in organization, fine motor skills, visual-spatial skills, attention and visual-spatial organization. There's probably so many undefined learning disabilities.

I'm also bad at all the things you list, and as you know, also got the LD NOS diagnosis at one point. I do, however, have serious issues with social interaction, particularly non-verbal cues. It's interesting that you don't because I've always attributed these difficulties largely to visual memory issues, which also seems like the obvious culprit in the other weaknesses you listed. I wonder why you escaped it?

I've seen NLD described as similar to ADHD frequently, but although I'm not an expert, everything I've read, which is a lot, seems to suggest that they're quite distinct. In particular, NLD is, at least according to some, caused by a dysfunction in the white matter of the right hemisphere (I now recall that at one time the term 'right hemisphere dysfunction' was thrown around as a possible diagnosis for me, while ADHD is often described as involving issues with left hemisphere functioning, and the prefrontal cortex.

I entirely agree that there are probably an awful lot of conditions that people have that have yet to be identified. Again, very frustrating.

Princess Moon
05-27-10, 12:56 AM
My main issues are weaknesses in visual-spatial skills and fine motor skills and organization and inattention. I do have some social skill weaknesses, and made some social errors in the past, but that was more when I was on medication that changed that, Effexor somehow caused that part of NLD, I had alright social skills, but when I went on Effexor, it somehow messed with that.

I was able to develop normal relationships and be adored a lot. I was able to have relationships and attract others. My social errors were subtle and not noticed a lot. My social skill weakness was deficits in pragmatic language, bringing up a topic, saying the right thing at the right time, saying stupid things, knowing when to join a conversation.

However, now I'm good at that and know what to do. Growing up, I did alright socially and had normal relationships so my pragmatic language weaknesses weren't noticed, but they did exist. I think I got away with it because I was pretty and nice and naive, so when I said silly things it would appear cute or ditzy or sweet or adorable instead of annoying or weird.

My visual-spatial skills and fine motor skills were my main weaknesses. A lot of people found my NLD like traits lovable and cute, like when I accidentally put on two different shoes, both left shoes and wore them to school because of my visual-spatial weaknesses, it was amusing. My social skills were okay, I had some pragmatic language deficits, but it was so subtle I got away with it, except when I was on the medication Effexor, that's when I noticed something was off.

I passed for normal for the most part and I don't think anyone could really notice my NLD symptoms because they were mild. Sometimes I look at past relationships and wonder if they knew about these NLD traits. My fine motor skills were weak, I had bad handwriting, I dropped objects, I was bad at making jewelry. I had weak visual-spatial skills, I got lost, I had trouble remembering faces, I was bad at math, I was bad at driving.

I made some mistakes in past relationships when I was younger, I communicated my emotions wrong sometimes in the past, but that was more do to some subtle pragmatic language issues, but I did not take things literally, I understood social cues, I read facial expressions right, my trouble was occasionally I might say something off topic or random or stupid. I was good at having intimate relationships and one on one, it was harder with new situations.

Now I do well socially, but a lot of times I wonder if people just liked me for my looks and if I was liked because I was good looking because of some odd things I said in conversations. I was not diagnosed with NLD, but now that I'm aware of it I look back at past relationships and wonder if they knew I was different. I was able to have normal relationships, but there were some communication mistakes I made that messed up many past relationships I could have fixed if I knew about NLD. My weakest areas though were visual-spatial organization and fine motor skills.

I have bad handwriting, can't draw a line with a ruler, was bad at jewelry and arts and crafts and spilled things or accidentally dropped things or had trouble holding objects and got lost and had trouble remembering where I was. I did really bad in school. NLD actually can work to my advantage, I can seem very sweet and cute and naive and that intrigues a lot of people in the party scene, a lot of rebellious guys found my innocence and naivete endearing. However, many people took advantage of my naive side growing up, but most people liked a lot of the silly things I did, they appeared cute. But sometimes I wonder if others like me just because I'm good looking or if my social skills improved.

NLD made me wonder about past relationships and worry that people like me because I'm good looking and that they looked past my NLD/ADD because of that. I had normal hobbies and interests, I liked soap operas and teen dramas and read teen magazines, my interests were considered normal so that was kind of missed. I think my anxiety disorders/anorexia were mainly caused by the NLD. I have a different type of NLD.

My organizational skills are bad, I lose things and my room was really messy and disorganized. I have really bad handwriting. I bad at holding objects and was really bad at making jewelry and arts and crafts. I was so bad at art. I had trouble drawing and trouble using glue and scissors. I would get lost and had trouble learning to drive. I have very bad organizational skills when it comes to writing and that's why this message is so random and disorganized. I failed every math test I ever took. My organizational skills are the weakest area. My ADD is more notible than the NLD symptoms.

I went to tons of top neurologists in the city who were "experts" as a child to see what was wrong and none of them said I had NLD as a kid, they all said I had just ADD because I seemed normal and Learning Disorder NOS. Because of that my NLD traits were missed. Now I don't know if I should ask to be reevaluated after all this time. Maybe there's something that exists between ADD and NLD, because I have more ADD symptoms than NLD symptoms, it's confusing.

Princess Moon
06-15-10, 11:06 AM
My NLD I think has somehow changed. The social part changed a lot, but the visual-spatial and fine motor skill and visual-spatial organization deficits are still there. The social part changed a lot from one point in the past. I am doing very well socially now. I appear very cool socially and now it makes me wonder if I had NLD in the first place or just deficits in fine motor skills or visual-spatial skills or if it's possible to cure NLD. I feel like the social part of the NLD just disappeared. Things are going really well socially and it's amazing how I've matured. I attract many cool guys and have had relationships in the past. I have deficits in visual-spatial skills and fine motor skills and visual-spatial organizations skills, but appear very cool socially. I've skinny and attractive, so for awhile I thought that was why, but now I'm wondering if somehow got all these better social skills the past couple years. I was able to have relationships and attract really cool guys, I had a lot of trouble at one point in college and other times in the past briefly, but now I am doing really well socially and appear very pretty and cool.

My deficits are in visual-spatial skills, fine motor skills, executive functioning and organization. Because I was attractive and skinny I got away with a lot of my issues. I have anorexia now and I have a shallow heart beat so now I'm so scared that my anorexia will ruin everything now that my NLD is somehow gone, I still have visual-spatial deficits and fine motor skills deficits and organizational deficits, but my life has gotten together and I fit in socially and things are really going well socially and I am "cool" and so much has changed but now I hear my anorexia has put me at a serious risk and it's crazy that my NLD is practically gone at the same time my anorexia is damaging my heart. It's crazy that just when things have gotten together and my learning disability problems seem to have disappeared, I'm anorexic and have these new issues.

My main deficits with my learning disabilities were poor visual memory, bad handwriting, bad at drawing, bad at making beads, bad at making jewelry, bad at arts and crafts, getting lost, bad sense of direction, bad at driving, bad at writing essays, bath at math, tripping over things, spilling things, dropping things, being late, bad organization, losing things, having trouble finding things. However, because of my disability, at one point I went to a school with ADD/ADHD kids and met so many cool guys, I find myself naturally drawn to guys that are rebels and have ADD/ADHD, I often attract guys that are rebels or impulsive because they seem to be drawn to the sweet, naive side that my ADD and NLD show on me, but for awhile I thought it was just because I was attractive, but now I know that the ADD/NLD actually works in my favor. Recovering from my learning disabilities makes me realize I have to recover from anorexia now because my life has really gotten together and I have to recover from the anorexia, too. Sorry this is off topic but because of my learning disabilities, my writing is very disorganized and off topic, but I feel like my NLD symptoms have somehow disappeared or something.

I still have deficits in fine motor skills and visual-spatial skills, but somehow things are going well socially and I've changed so much. I tend to attract guys and be attracted to guys that are rebels or have ADD/ADHD or are impulsive or are musicians, I think my innocence and naivette with my NLD really draws that type of rebel guy in. Anyone else feel they tend to attract and be attracted to rebel or impulsive type people? Sorry this message is long and goes into so many topics, I just have difficulty writing clear, organized essays without going onto different topics or tangents, I think that's part of NLD. This thought just came to me.

I have deficits in fine motor skills, visual-spatial skills, organization and attention. However, so much has changed and my deficits are mild. My ADD and anorexia and anxiety now are more of issues than the NLD traits, however the fine motor skill deficits and visual-spatial skill deficits and visual-spatial organization deficits and visual memory deficits still around around. Things have changed so much and really gotten together, but now I have to deal with the results of the anorexia and it's like, one thing gets reall better and great just at the time another thing gets really serious, it's like a twist of fate or something.

Sorry my messages seem long of off topic or weird or random, I have difficulty expressing myself in writing and am better in person, my thoughts just get so jumbled up and disorganized when I express them written without taking time to fix them. I have so many thoughts going on now and need a lot of time to organize them, sorry my messages are confusing, disorganized or messed up. It kind of feels like it's possible to recover from NLD, the visual-spatial and fine motor skill deficits still exist, but the social part disappears and things can get so amazing and great. I sometimes wonder if maybe I have something in between ADD and NLD, not yet discovered. Who knows? Sorry for my morning rambling/weird essay. I was able to attract the cool rebel guys, the rebel types of guys. A lot of people in rebellious crowds and musicians and ADD/ADHD types are drawn to NLD/ADD types. Anyone else notice that or is that just my experience? I attracted those types of guys usually.

Sorry, typical NLD style, I have long, off topic, disorganized, repetetive essay, sorry about that. I'm not sure what to write or say or how to express my thoughts into a clear, organized essay, that is one of my weaknesses along with bad handwriting, bad sense of direction, bad organization and bad at math. I think my learning disability I have doesn't have a label. I appear normal, so these invisible type of disabilities aren't noticible until I have to do certain tasks.

Princess Moon
07-12-10, 05:19 PM
I recently looked at my old IEP. My performance IQ was 73, my verbal IQ was 103 and I was in the low average intelligence range. It also said I had strengths in social judgment and weaknesses in fine eye motor speed, visual perceptual organization, visual sequential organization, visual alertness to detail, accuracy, listening, written expression, oral expression, math, processing, skill solving, listening, organization, distractibility, being late, losing objects. It also said I had adequate life skills for my age. Maybe I really have a different diagnosis.

amusing
07-12-10, 06:08 PM
I was diagnosed with ADHD in the mid 90s. Four years later, I had to undergo a second round of testing (now that I was on meds for the ADHD) to determine whether I would be allowed accommodations when I sat for the state bar exam. As a result of the second round of testing, I was diagnosed as having a non-verbal learning disability (NVLD), as well as ADHD.

The psychologist who conducted the second round of testing in 1999 explained that my NVLD was the opposite of dyslexia in that my intake of information was correct, but organizing the information for output & the output itself, whether oral or written, is quite time-consuming for me - not to mention exhausting.

ElfMusic
07-13-10, 02:48 AM
I have been diagnosed with NVLD, as well as ADHD-Inattentive Type. This was through a battery of tests administered by a psychologist (including Wechsler, et al.,) and it has been only recently that I have learned about the overlap and confusion between NVLD and Aspergers, and the various traits that overlap between those and ADHD. From diagnosis until present, most of my learning has focused on ADHD, and if anyone has recommendations for specifically NVLD resources, it would be good to know. I think the main reason I was not diagnosed as having Aspergers had to do with empathy- even that is conditional. I can read emotions easily, but social cues are a different matter. I hate chitchat, and find it much easier to get to know someone through music, or doing volunteer work together, or in a situation with some degree of roleplay (e.g., Renaissance Faires, where the proper greetings and ways of approaching people are part of a persona, plus there is an expectation of approaching new people- but that's another post entirely.) I don't read much of the second layer of communication used by cliques to designate "in-group". I also tend to process language first and foremost tonally and gathering the emotional content, and then processing the meaning. As far as visual-spatial processing, I have lousy depth perception, and poor eye-hand (hand-eye?) coordination (but much better ear-hand coordination.)

As far as the tendency of Aspies to take phrases literally, I've always easily understood metaphors and turns of phrase, and I love puns- the more groan-inducing the better- but the fact that I even notice the literal meaning of the phrases probably separates me from most NTs, who just swallow phrases whole without breaking them apart. (As an aside, I abhor the misuse of the word "literally." I had to resist commenting on a recent post in which a woman said "my son literally lights up when..." Unless he has bio-luminescense- um, no.)

The main thing that I seem to find more info about among Aspies than those with NVLD, is the sensory issues: I can not touch velvet- it feels like the way fingers on a chalkboard sound. Higher pitch cracking noises can overwhelm my senses- I have had to leave buses because someone on board was clipping fingernails. I am really particular about the materials I have next to my skin. I don't like being touched in light ways (or by most people)- I will shake hands, but I'd prefer a bear-hug to a light hand on the shoulder because the latter makes my senses feel unbalanced.

I know the initial post here was to find out who else on the forum has NVLD or LD-NOS, and I feel I may have gone off on tangents, but the definition covers so much range and, as I mentioned before, so much overlap, that I felt I had to better describe my traits here.

Werl
07-15-10, 09:04 PM
I can now say that I may have a non-verbal LD. That's actually a little funny.

lemming
12-11-10, 07:53 AM
I'm a good speller generally, but occasionally make bizarre mistakes, which always make sense phonetically. I remember, for example, that in second grade i got airplane wrong on a spelling test by spelling it 'aeroplane'.




This is pretty O/T, but i just thought I'd interject by saying that technically, you weren't wrong. The British spell it aeroplane :)

APSJ
12-12-10, 07:27 PM
This is pretty O/T, but i just thought I'd interject by saying that technically, you weren't wrong. The British spell it aeroplane :)

Really? I wonder if that teacher remembers! Want to go back and have the record set straight! :D

Actually, that wouldn't be the first time that's happened...I absorb words by reading without memorizing specifically...so they just look right or wrong...I recall spelling "mom" with a 'u' "mum" and being marked down for that, probably also in second grade or thereabouts, because was reading a book where they did.