Hello everyone,

Its really great to finally find a place where I can read about soo many experiences and find that, with most of these readings, I seem to be staring at a perfect reflection of myself.

To cut a verrrry loooong story short. I have always had a problem with my temper and mood. I would seem to get angry at the slightest of things, ending up seriously blowing my fuse, and then 10 or 15 minutes later I am extremely tired and sleepy and look back at what I had just said or done and feel really stupid and regretful. My days would almost always follow a distinct pattern, although not always to the same degree of severity. I would wake up unmotivated, take very long to get going, grumpy, lethargic. Then that would end up transitioning to non-specific anxiousness, and jitteriness. Later in the day, always after lunch: period of between 12 pm and 3-4 pm was always the worse. It consisted of extreme lethargy, mental fuzziness, concentration impaired especially if I had a subject that was a non-science one. I further noticed that this was made worse if I consumed a meal high in carbs. After 4 pm, a gradual decrease in symptoms, which turned into irritability and then relative euthymia by 7 or 8 followed by a very alert mode at night, not disphoric, but just good enough that I would be able to be civil and get stuff done, e.g assignments. I was called the bat, the vampire, Nicodemus etc.

Eventually tried Paxil, made me into a walking zombie, numb, no sexual desire, delayed ej, samnolent, more irritable, more restless. Zoloft, prozac, Celexa was like a sugar pill, all the same.
NASTY. Manerix irritabilty dominated. Doc Thought I was bipolar, i thought so too, tried Li = nauseated zombie, Valproate=nauseated, dysphoric. Tegretol=tachycardia, zombie, lethargic, unemotional.

Then came good old coffee and cigarettes which helped the days be a little more bearable. But guilty because I knew what I was doing to myself. Buproprion was alittle better. Then one day I was out of everything including coffee.

I found some caffeine pills RELUCTANTLY popped a 200 mg , and within 30 minutes I was as calm as if I had taken a Valium, but no drugged feeling. Pure serene calmness, coherentness, so unbeleivable it was SCARY!! Even the ambient colours seemed to take on a brighter tone, racy thoughts slowed to an acceptable level

As Methylphenidate is a schedule II substance, and even with my medical background I couldn't obtain them like that. Not a dishonest person so I sat back and though about going to psych as my doc said that he could not handle that.

Then it seemed like the stars were aligned in my favour. A friend had a kid who was diagnosed with adhd. She never used the Ritalin. I ask her for them. I wanted to see what would happen. Took 10 mg. In 1 hr I was so calm I slept for about 5 hrs. WHOA!!!!!!!! Took 5 the next day and I though wow, this is weird.

the Ritalin is now finished. But luckily I got some bupropion XL which, is nothing like the Ritalin, infact I noticed that it maked me irritable.

DOES A PERSON WHO REACTS THIS WAY TO STIMULANT DRUGS AN ADD'er? IS IT CONCLUSIVE?

PLEASE SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS WITH ME.

The only thing about ritalin I dont Like is the fact That it gives me slight palpitations and hand tremor, but it makes my "head" so calm, and life so bearable, I am actually calm enough to read but not enough to fall asleep after 1 page.

Could I take a hydrophilic beta blocker with it to control the peripheral symptoms? Or will they go away with time. Or would Adderall be a better choice?

Thanks for taking the time to read

I would say these are questions to ask a doctor.
The more posts I read on this board the more I learn that every person reacts differently to the same medication.

Couple of things,

It is not unusual for cigarrettes and coffee to produce some relief. I use them myself. :-) Caffeine pills work for the same reason, but caffeine is a short acting stimulant.

There are some three hundred stimulants in the family that the two molecules that are used to treat ADHD are in. Only these two actually seem to work. Methylphenidate, and amphetamine. These same two molecules occur in every stimulant med on the market right now whether it be extended release or the regular variety. These are much longer acting than caffeine, and they seem to work, NOT because they are stimulants, which is a function of the right handed isomer of the molecules, but because the left handed isomer seems to mimic a nuerotransmitter ADDers appear to be short of. A dosage response curve of an ADDer looks more like the insulin response curve of a diabetic (a replacement curve) than the typical response curve you'd see in a person recieving a stimulant.

Having said that, a postive response to a stimulant med, while suggestive, IS NOT diagnostic. This is a mistake many doctors that are not well versed in ADD diagnostic criteria make. You really should seek an evaluation by a specialist in ADD who can do a full evaluation. While these drugs are considered quite safe, safer, in fact than tylenol, this is with the caveat that you are taking them under the care of a doctor and not experimenting on yourself. If you were a rapid cylcling bipolar and tried that little experiment you could have landed yourself in a psych ward. If you had a pre-existing health issue you were unaware of like hypertension or something similar it might well contra-indicate stimulant meds. Lastly, the dosage on these meds is closely monitored when administered. It's tuned basically. It takes a little time to get it right, but it works. The side effects you experienced may have been a matter of taking too much, or may simply have been normal side effects. Again, I can't over-emphasize the importance of getting an evaluation from a qualified professional. I know how much you want to be functional, but these drugs are class two controlled substances. Let the professionals do the diagnosing. If the difference is as night and day as you are describing you are probably right. You can't diagnose yourself though, and in anycase there are so many other factors involved that you would be doing your health no favors by short cutting it. Listen to FightingBoredom see a specialist in ADD get an evaluation.

No lecture is intended. Just pointing out the facts. Wellbutrin, by the way, is considered a non-stimulant medication. Though I've been told it is just a stimulant by another name. Different pathways. It acts on dopamine if I'm not mistaken.

Well, there's all kinds of facts, so you have to qualify those point's, sometimes.

To answer the original question: YES, there is a contrary effect. Ritalin and Adderall both display it. I really don't know about any of the others.

That was a well thought out post, too. I'd say you've got your answer pretty well knocked. Now all you have to do is relax and work your way through the diagnostic process. (keep smiling...)

We can pop either drug and sleep like babies. The coffee and smoking thing is also a common experience, but under some circumstances Ritilin and coffee can be a bad combination. (dream away...)

While a positive response is not sufficient for diagnosis, a contrary response is starting to gain momentum as a good indicator that the diagnosis was correct, and vice versa. In other words, if a patient doesn't have the experience, the doctor should consider possible alternatives.

And be careful interpreting the neurotransmitter and chemistry stuff. We're reasonably certain that the usual hypotheses are wrong, because they assume the biochemistry is more or less directly associated to the experiential context. There is at least one logical layer between the neurotransmitters and a person's experience of the response to the drug. It's more like the relationship of a projector bulb to the story in a movie, or the ideas the movie is trying to project. The two types of projection are similar in name only.

I tried strattera for two months, and that about knocked me out for the first few days. I quit that and was started on Wellbutrin XL 300mg in mid-late febuary. I usually take a nap after I take it in the morning, but then I'm up all night.

As for caffiene (yummmm), it helps me thinks clearer and not quite so fast. In that sense, it calms me and helps me sleep. It doesn't help me stay asleep though.

The docs are still experimenting meds with me, so I don't have a whole lot of experience with stimulants.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, but I just thought I'd tell you how I react to those things.

Cyndi

That intrepretation is based on a best guess. Good call pointing that out though Stabile. I get so enthusiastic sometimes details that seem very self evident to me somehow don't make it into the written word.... Somebody named E-boy needs to proof read more. The original best guess in question was asked at a symposium regarding the current standard of care for adult ADD. The question posed was why stimulant meds work on ADD. The doctor pointed out that not all stimulant meds do work, and of the 300 or so with a long enough action time to be useful only two molecules have ever been observed to have the desired effect, as mentioned above. He said that clinicians don't necessarily measure things based on rigorous analytical processes designed to determine what characteristic is best to measure. The measure the things that are easy to measure. Central nervous system stimulant, measure degree of stimulation. Which seems straight forward enough until he pointed out that they were quite certain that the stimulant effect had nothing to do with the therapuetic effect of the drug. The stimulant effect was due to the right handed isomer of the molecule and they knew it was the left handed isomer that was producing the effect. THIS IS WHERE HE ACKNOWLEDGED THEY DIDN'T ACTUALLY KNOW ANYTHING FURTHER, BUT THEORIZED, THAT THE LEFT HANDED ISOMER ( which I think I was clear on at least was a tenative conclusion at this point) WAS A LOOK ALIKE FOR SOME NUEROTRANSMITTER THAT WASN'T BEING PRODUCED IN ENOUGH QUANTITY, OR BEING METABOLIZED AWAY TOO QUICKLY.

Based on the sorts of recent genetic discoveries they have made with certain types of mutations in uptake systems for serotonin and the fact that in at least one of these cases two different mutations residing on one gene have been found to actually substantially increase efficiency of serotonin re-uptake in individuals with both mutations (who have severe cases of medication resistent OCD and other anxiety disorders.). Considering the likely multiple genes involved in ADD something that looks as though it could also be borne out as investigations into recent findings continue it could well be that higher efficiency uptake systems are at play in the above postulated system as well. I highly doubt such a system is a stand alone gene and I very much doubt it is a disorder. I therefore would not be at all suprised if they did find paired up mutations that substantially increased uptake efficiency for the mystery neurotransmitter too.

How can I compare ADD that I insist is adaptive with OCD which anyone can see is maladaptive? Easy. How many OCDers have you met from prior to six thousand years ago? None? Me neither. So, how do we know then that the pathological behavior is not the result of modern societal pressures on what would otherwise simply be a highly tuned fight or flight response, rather than an anxiety disorder. Seems to me that extra bit of reactivity to a potential threat and in otherwise serene enviroment would be a survival edge and not at all likely to lead to mental illness. Two things bear me out on this. One, there is a huge amount of genetic loading with anxiety disorders. You can have the gene and never develop the disorder. So, circumstances and environment are the key players interacting with that genetic loading to create pathology. Secondly, we fall back on those lovely population geneticists. Remeber that 2% figure? Well OCD affects something like 2-3 percent of the population which would put it comfortably in the adaptive zone genetically.

Natural selection can result in some amazingly complex structures over time. Considering the difference in propogation rates, I would really like to know the relative ages of the genes involved. At least one of the involved genes with ADD is only about 40,000 years old. If the OCD genes are older than ADD is a spectacularly successful adaptation and propagated quickly. If it is roughly the same age, or younger than it would be fair to say we could see at least as much or more complexity in the variation in the ADD Genes and their various expressions.

That's stretching my layman's genetic's about as far as they will go though.

I'm OK with all of that, but we know something about how the brain works that changes the whole game of trying to figure out how the drugs work.

The assumptions about genetics, the biochemistry of neural networks, and how drugs affect their operation are all based on the idea that the networks directly support the workings of the brain that we experience as the mind, and the model of reality in which conscious experience occurs.

One of our fundamental hypotheses is that the raw networks of the brain support a logical structure that in turn supports the logical structures related to consciousness and the mind. Not all higher level functions are indirectly supported like this, but the logic central to conscious experience is at least one and in some cases as many as three levels removed from the actual firing of neurons.

The actual function of the neurons supporting conscious experience is to model neural structure. In a sense, the system of neurotransmitters and inhibitors that one might want to measure or adjust in order to treat ADD exists as part of a model of neural function, not as actual biochemistry. The known effects are measured in the system that models the biochemistry, and the effect can't translate directly for many reasons.

One reason is that it's unlikely that these neural systems actually directly emulate the operation of the underlying neural networks, except in certain functions like short term memory and some associated with learning. So you can understand why we are reluctant to draw any conclusion from the chemistry of the drugs and the biochemistry of the brain, and also why the pharmacology is still largely directed by heuristics. Physicians apply what works.

And many of the effects of ADD are social effects, which adds another whole level of logical indirection between the brain chemistry and the experience. It is entirely possible that social effects could be related to measurable differences in brain chemistry, which would really make things confusing. Are differences in serotonin levels due to an underlying genetic difference contributing to ADD, or is the experience of living with ADD leading to a measurable difference in serotonin levels? I've never seen any research addressing that question, even though measurable differences in brain chemistry suspected to be related to cultural differences have long been reported.

BTW, we believe that the drugs that are effective are acting more like a buffer system than a direct tweak of the underlying biochemistry. In other words, Ritalin might act to change the equilibrium point for certain neurotransmitters or inhibitors, or perhaps some combination. If you're below the equilibrium point, your levels increase; levels higher are driven down. The drugs that work well probably tend to fall between the natural equilibrium points of ADDers and normals.

As to why that would work we really don't have a clue. We might be able to hypothesize something based on our research, but we just haven't had any time to think much about it.

Interesting how my post has sparked soo many intricate responses. Thanks! Very interesting views I must say!

On an updated note, the bupropion HCL is doing squat! Another odd experience I had yesterday was with sudafed. Sinuses were giving me trouble, and I took a Sudafed tab. Felt as if I had taken Ritalin. It keeps getting weirder and weirder!!!!!!!

Anyhow, I did take our advice and have an appointment with a psych in 2 weeks.

And before I duck out once more, I do have a question for you all.

I have noticed that Wellbutrin XL has a nasty effect on my short term memory. I pick up something and forget where I put it. Its not the Odd forgetfulness of your average person, At least not That I think, but it has happened numerous times lately.

Anyone ever heard of this or experienced it. Goodness maybe I need some Aricept, LOL!!!!! :~|))))))

Oh and while I am on that subject, I have read some interesting articles about Adult ADD/ADHD and the use of galantamine [Reminyl]]

I've had trouble with Sudafed myself lately, and my wife's had nasty side effects for years.

I've never had Wellbutrin, but I'm familiar with something similar to your description of a short term memory problem.

When you say you pick up something and then forget where you put it, are you talking about this: picking up a tool, using it to perform some operation A, then laying it down, picking up another tool, performing a second operation B, then, needing to perform operation A again, you're unable to locate the first tool...

Or, you pick up a tool, place it where you need it to perform operation A, become involved in some other operations, lose sight of the fact that operation A needs to be performed (though you'll remember it later), and now, you can't find the tool, either to put it away, or give it back, or (most likely) perform operation A on a different piece of equipment or in a different context.

In the first scenario, you might dust the TV, put the dust cloth down, vacuum the drapes, go to dust the pictures on the piano but you can't find the dust cloth.

In the second scenario, you take the dust cloth and the vacuum into the living room, dust the TV, put the dust cloth on the piano next to the pictures, vacuum the drapes, go into the dining room, vacuum the drapes there, then the seat cushions, rearrange something, put the vacuum cleaner in its spot by the kitchen, start dinner, and later, you can't find the dust cloth to save your life.

Most of the reasons that these kinds of things happen are not involved particularly with short term memory. The most common one for us is this: when we multitask, we sometimes set interrupts. We begin an action, expecting to have some event or object play a part in reminding us to complete the action, or initiate the next step. We can be extremely good at this, particularly if we feel the need to be as efficient as possible (as in, under the gun again).

So I might pick up the dust cloth meaning to go into the living room to dust the pictures on the piano. I set an interrupt on the pictures and head out, thinking about what to make for dinner. When I get to the living room and see the pictures, the interrupt I set fires, I remember that I came in to dust, and do it.

Until one day when Kay moves the pictures off the piano and puts some of her dolls there instead. What happens next is one of two things: either I find myself untold minutes later, standing in a trance staring at the dolls and wondering why I'm there, or I walk right past the dolls, through the dining room and back into the kitchen, where I stand in a stupor, wondering why I'm holding the dust cloth.

If that sounds familiar, it's the interrupt thing, not short term memory problems.

Kay and the kids used to poke fun at me when I did this sort of thing. Then one day I finally found the right words to explain it, and they realized they did the same thing. So now we poke fun at each other, but it's hard to get upset.

Originally posted by E-boy
Couple of things,

It is not unusual for cigarrettes and coffee to produce some relief. I use them myself. :-) Caffeine pills work for the same reason, but caffeine is a short acting stimulant.

There are some three hundred stimulants in the family that the two molecules that are used to treat ADHD are in. Only these two actually seem to work. Methylphenidate, and amphetamine. These same two molecules occur in every stimulant med on the market right now whether it be extended release or the regular variety. These are much longer acting than caffeine, and they seem to work, NOT because they are stimulants, which is a function of the right handed isomer of the molecules, but because the left handed isomer seems to mimic a nuerotransmitter ADDers appear to be short of. A dosage response curve of an ADDer looks more like the insulin response curve of a diabetic (a replacement curve) than the typical response curve you'd see in a person recieving a stimulant.


Funny that you would say that because I have been reading many medical journals that say the left handed isomer is the less involved one and that it causes the undesired side effects (tic, peaks and valleys, comedown etc), in fact they just came out with a "highly refined and improved" version of methylphenidate that is called dexmethylphenidate HCl (Focalin) that is supposedly MUCH better than regular Ritalin because they have been able to eliminate the left handed Isomer and just put the Dextro into the medicene. Also isn't Dexedrine all right isomers? These things seems to contradict what you and Eboy just said.

Here is some general information of the clinical trial they just did:

General Information
Focalin, a refined formulation of Ritalin (d,l-methylphenidate HCl), has been approved by the FDA for the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Whereas Ritalin contains both the d and l isomers of methylphenidate, Focalin contains only the more active d-isomer. Isomers are compounds that contain the same number and type of atoms, but have different structures.





GABAPHENIDATE, it isn't a paradox, it is one of the most if not the most widely abused prescription drug on college campuses in the USA for the reason you just named. Even on people who are non ADHD it will calm them down significantly and make them focus and alert (good for all night studying), I have had good friends who have asked to buy it from me for double price because they realize what this drug does for them. This also leads alot of people to try to get diagnosed because they are like you in that they take the medicene and see how focused they are, and along with the myth that it will make you bounce off the walls for non ADHD think they have to be ADHD because the way the medicene is affecting them. There was even a recent survey that showed a pretty high percentage of parents with ADHD children will take their medicene when they feel "under the gun", "stressed out" or have a big deadline to meet. I'm not trying to discourage you from getting the eval done but rather telling you some of the pitfalls that comes with going in for it, my best friend was just rejected for the Dx and he "wasted" $500.

Point Taken Humis77. But I have to admit, and maybe I might not be "the best" observer of "my" own behaviour, it transefers me into a person with ALOT, and I mean ALOT less agitation, grumpinesss, anger. I can take much more stress and be civilized NOT OBLIVIOUS, to criticism or even "acid humour". I do not get bored either. I would say the change is dramatic!!! obviously I dont get fuzzy and drowsy in the afternoon, and I can sleep at night.

To:

Stabile, I think you are right when you mentioned multitaks, as I do do taht alot. And I think tahts how I misplace stuff.

Thanks again.

But no one has answered the question about stimulants qnd fast heart rate? Does it go away after a while?

Yo, humis77 et al:

I find it interesting that you've got an actual source to back up your opinion of the levo- dextro- thing (the PDR blurb for Focalin) but no back up for the urban legend that Ritalin is widely abused.

I'd love to hear of any. I've been asking the question for years, even before the 60 Minutes thing that was such a joke.

When the school nurse in my son's high school insisted that she had to have possession of his Ritalin, I put in a call to the head of the DEA in this region. He was helpful, friendly, polite, open, a real Boy Scout all around. We had a great time talking for about fifteen minutes, and he said straight out that there was no more of a problem with Ritalin than with most ordinary prescription drugs of all kinds. Pills disappear from unattended bottles mostly because people are curious, or stupid or both, and that's about all there was to it.

He said it was effectively off their radar and he wouldn't think about it twice a year if it wasn't for the persistent rumors. And he said there appeared to be no real market for it.

Now, that was in '95, I think, so things could have changed. But I still haven't seen any real stats, and the story hasn't changed a bit, so I really doubt there's anything new.

The other thing he said was that my son's meds and how he used them were a private matter between him and his doctor, and that he doubted the nurse even had the right to know that Bryan was being treated. The privacy of the doctor patient relationship trumps the in loco parentis responsibilities of the school administration until there is legally sufficient reason to suspect that something bad has happened.

I talked to the Principal, and the Nurse called to apologize. End of problem.

By the way: I got the opposite take on the levo- dectro- thing, too. The idea that the inactive isomer is responsible for side effects is standard drug research mantra. It's one of those things that they consider always worth checking out, just in case. The idea that the levo- impurity might actually be the active ingredient for us was exactly what they meant. The hypothesis was that our effect is a side effect. It's a neat idea, but none of it is proven.

I'll be real interested to see if Focusin, sorry, Focalin works. (Anybody see that particular Simpson’s episode?) It could be a pretty definitive experiment, and I can do it myself. Believe me, I'll know in a few minutes if it's working right (pun intended), and there won't be any doubt about it.

If it does, so much for the levo- dextro- idea, at least for Ritalin. Personally, I still think my original opinion was correct: the drug company just Focalin it to make a buck, and they're using smoke and mirrors to play out the standard take about the inactive isomers.

And Gabaphenidate, you go ahead and do your thing. The medical community isn't going to shoot you down; you just need to find a doctor that will allow you your dignity, and listen to what you’re saying. No money or time wasted, I believe.

And of course, there is a contrary effect, just as we've all described. Jeeze.

I guess things have changed since '95 ;)

From personal experience I know for certain that Adderall is is WIDELY abused in college. I go to a major university and in my fraternity and the greek system in general, a conservative number of people I know who have used it illegally is close to half. Everyone I have talked to has either tried it once, knows where to get it, or has a friend that uses it regularly or use it all the time themselves. The market here is mainly for Adderall as it appears to be the new sexy drug and goes for 5-8 dollars per 10 mg tablet, but Ritalin is also used by a smaller niche market of people.

There has been a six-fold increase in emergency room visits associated to Ritalin abuse over the past decade, according to the Drug Abuse Warning Network, which tracks drug abuse data for federal health authorities. There were 271 Ritalin-related emergency room visits in 1990 and 1,478 visits in 2001. (Thats a HUGE increase and only counts people who were so stupid as to overdose, not people who are taking it in normal doses for study)

In November 2002, a University of Wisconsin study published in the Johns Hopkins News-Letter found that as many as one in five college students have illegally used drugs such as Ritalin or Adderall. (Just as a reference if applied to my university that would be an astounding 6000 students that have used stimulant drugs illegally...and there isn't rampant abuse going on with it?)

Federal drug officials said Ritalin is among the top controlled prescription drugs reported stolen in the United States. The Drug Enforcement Administration also lists methylphenidate, Ritalin's generic name, among a dozen or so "drugs of concern." ("Drugs of concern" is pretty serious...not sure what DEA agent you were talking to)


http://www.jhunewsletter.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/11/22/3ddd766faebeb (John Hopkins Newsletter)

http://www.ndsn.org/FEB98/trends.html (National Drug Strategy Network: trends of drug abuse in college students)

http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/children/01/08/college.ritalin/index.html (Ritalin abuse in college age students)

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/Living/GMA030225Ritalin_abuse.html (Ritalin abuse in college age students)

http://www.ithaca.edu/ithacan/articles/0309/04/news/2popping_pill.htm

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=18749&pid=1115

http://www.bupipedream.com/102103/wire/w4.htm

http://www.universitydaily.net/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/01/27/4015c6444ea98



Ritalin
found: typically bought from students with a prescription for Ritalin, for diagnosed Attention Defecit Disorder

Ritalin is a prescription medication that has been in use since the 1960's for the treatment Attention Defecite Disorder, and is most frequently prescribed to children and adolescents. Sometimes considered a "miracle drug," as it helps almost everyone to focus, calm down, and better be able to study, the drug has ben extremely over-prescribed throughout the years. Recently, prescriptions for Ritalin to college-age students have increased, due to the misdiagnosis of stress, depression, anxiety, etc. as ADD. As more students on campus possess the drug on a regular basis, it becomes more accessible to those without a prescription, and therefore more heavily used.
A typical dosage of Ritalin is about 5-20mg, and pills are sold illegally for approximately $5-10 each. While Ritalin can improve study habits or provide a pleasurable "buzz," its after effects are often melancholy, lethargy, dry mouth, loss of appetite, inability to sleep, psychosis, or depression.


ADDERALL ABUSE

Adderall is a reformulated version and close cousin of the ADHD medication Dexedrine. Dextroamphetamine (Adderall, Dexedrine) is classified as Schedule II controlled substance, a classification given to medical drugs with the highest abuse potential and dependence profile.

Drug Enforcement Agency data on methylphenidate (Ritalin, Conceta) and amphetamine (Dexedrine, Adderall) shows that both have high abuse liabilities. These substances are powerful stimulants and Adderall abuse, along with Ritalin abuse, is extensive.
Adderall abuse can lead to marked tolerance, escalation in Adderall dosages and addiction. Although the majority of Adderall abuse cases cited pertain to adults, case studies also profile adolescents who abuse their Adderall medication.

Other Adderall abuse reports students selling their Adderall medication to friends and schoolmates. Because Dextroamphetamine (street name “dexies”) can have a retail value in the high school parking lot, doctors often avoid prescribing Adderall medication to teenagers.


Really I could post links, stories, statistics, studies, and personal accounts all day long but it starts to threadjack what the original purpose of this was.

Thanks Stabile!

From my standpoint, I really cant understand why someone would want to abuse essentially a sympathomimetic. I mean, from what I understand is that if a "normal" person takes something llike ritalin, they feel awfull!! The weird thing about me is that, as late back as I can remember, I could not take pseudoephedrine or Ventolin syrup. It would shake the stuffings out of me, aaaaah! I had started drinking coffee some years ago, however, and its always had a calming efffect.

Its strange how something could be "SO IN YOUR FACE" AND YET YOU ARE APPARENTLY SOOOO Blind To it!! I never really payed conscious attn to the fact that it did this! I guess it was just habit. The cigarettes too. Like I said in my earlier post, it was only when i actually took 200 mg of pure caffeine that it really hit me......and then a couple of days back when I took pseudoephedrine because I had no choice [sinuses hurt like hell] and then another shock at how I reacted......Quietness in what I could describe as its purest form.

aih! I am confused. In college, pharmacology classes suggested taht "normal" folk dont react to stimulants the way ADD'ers do, and then Humis77 goes says something different? hmmmmmm...................

Makes me wonder, is it this way with all Sympathomimetics? From what I understand iits like a negative feedback mechanism involved.........................maybe Dinintel/Aslenix [Clobenzorex], Salbutamol, Clenbuterol, Fenoterol, would do it. I mean I am not stupid enough to experiment with these drugs, but it does make one wonder?

I read an interestingly theory Last nite on ADD/ADHD and it suggested a hypodopaminergic + hyperadrenergic state. So physio/somato/pharmacologically speaking, this could help explain why ADD'ers [hypodopaminergic] lack motivation, sluggish etc. and [hyperadrenergic] anger, frustration etc. = a exaggerated flight or flight response?????? hmmmmm SOunds too simple though.............Annteresting approach would be to try L-dopa/peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor with a noradrenergic agent Like Strattera or Reboxetine =dopa augmentation and reuptake inhibition of NE leading to downregulation/inhibited firing of NE neurons?

I'm not sure whether there is much point in beating yourself up trying to find an optimum here. There are contrary effects, which means that the whole understanding of the drug's action is probably not applicable. On top of that, we know that the model of the brain that is used to form hypotheses is incorrect.

But gnawing on a thing until we get it is one of the most common ADD traits, one reason they try to rule out OCD (which is nothing like what you're doing). The best thing to do is try to see it happening, smile at yourself, and consciously pick a different thing to chew on.

****************

And while we're on the subject, humis77: DAWN's data doesn't support the idea that Ritalin is abused; anyone interested should first go to the DAWN 'myths and facts' section, then download DAWN's data and take a look. Ritalin is drug number 1268 or 1269, I think. Remember, DAWN data is unconfirmed anecdotal ER reports from sample hospitals in a sample of metropolitan areas.

The rest of the sources cited are either broken links or news stories, a bunch of which refer directly or indirectly to one student wire service release. If you check the facts in depth, I suspect you'll find the Boston University student that was put in a coma by Adderall abuse is just a rumor. There aren't any references to the story in any of the major news services I checked.

The thing is, there is a feel to urban legend, and this has it in spades. I don't know the reason you dropped the idea that our drugs are abused into the thread, but let's let it go, OK? --TR

Bringing it up? All I did was say it wasn't a paradox and that a whole lot of college students take it for its calming effects illegally. My original post was just giving an example of how it isn't a paradox and how widespread and popular the use is. How is what Gaph did not the same thing as students who take it illegally? 5 in a day? If I took that many in one day I would end up in a coma.

Actually I took one excerpt out of each link that I posted, I just checked them and they all work, I would hardly say the John Hopkins U (they have one of the top medical research facilities in the world) is "just a student wire release", or ABC, CNN, NDSN, and the DEA, all of which say the drugs are being rampantly abused.
Besides, I would put more credence to the student wire services than anything else, who else would know better how rampant the abuse is than someone who sees it every day? The fact is I brought up the "real stats" that you challenged me to (as well as many first hand accounts from the students themselves) and now you don't want to admit that I proved you wrong. Nowhere have I stated a myth, the only thing I said was that Ritalin and Adderall are among the highest if not the highest abused drug on college campuses nationwide.
If you would like to discuss it more please email me because I still have about 50 articles/studys/surveys I could send to you, though the ones I posted make it clear how rampant the abuse is.

Stabile, that is part of the urban myth of Ritalin that has been broken down for a while now, I think it was put out to prevent other people from wanting to take it. Soldiers have been using it since it was sythesized and still used it (issued by the govt.) for alertness and focus while driving a jet, on the field etc. Refer to my post above about Ritalin: "Sometimes considered a "miracle drug," as it helps almost everyone to focus, calm down".

OK, that's about enough for me.

I repeat: there is a paradoxical effect. That's the subject, yes? Not Ritalin abuse.

By the way, Gabaphenidate et al: you can't call yourself a really warped coffee user until you do what we do. We roast the green beans ourselves and grind the still warm beans to brew some of the best coffee on the planet. Anyone can do it, and its actually cheaper than any other coffee source we know, even taking the cost of the roaster and grinder into account.

And it is way better than Starbucks. We buy from sweetmarias.com.

humis77, you latch on to something just like a person with ADD...

You should read what I wrote a little more closely. I didn't say the Johns Hopkins link was a news story, but it was the broken link.

It seems OK now. But guess what? It IS a news story:

"A preliminary study at the University of Wisconsin has shown that.."

Based on a preliminary study from a different school.

I'll email the rest of what I have to say, and that's it for me.

Some other place and time...

Originally posted by GABAPHENIDATE


I read an interestingly theory Last nite on ADD/ADHD and it suggested a hypodopaminergic + hyperadrenergic state. So physio/somato/pharmacologically speaking, this could help explain why ADD'ers [hypodopaminergic] lack motivation, sluggish etc. and [hyperadrenergic] anger, frustration etc. = a exaggerated flight or flight response?????? hmmmmm SOunds too simple though.............Annteresting approach would be to try L-dopa/peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor with a noradrenergic agent Like Strattera or Reboxetine =dopa augmentation and reuptake inhibition of NE leading to downregulation/inhibited firing of NE neurons?


I have reboxetine as a base med and would take adrafanil to get past daily drowsy episodes that on many occasions used to require a sleep to get past. I did try modafinil but interestingly enough it wasn't as effective as Adrafinil.

I now have Reboxetine as a base and methyphendate (generic) as my primary ADHD med and have found my sleep issue COMPLETELY solved, my concentration somewhat better, but still lack any improve on the short tert/working memory problems.

Sleepzalotlessnow

It's to bad that this thread took a turn for the worse into "Stimulant Abuse"! :(

It was getting very interesting and I was thoroughly enjoying the dialog. :)

Oh well, c'est la vie on our ADD forums! :)

By the way, Gabaphenidate et al: you can't call yourself a really warped coffee user until you do what we do. We roast the green beans ourselves and grind the still warm beans to brew some of the best coffee on the planet. Anyone can do it, and its actually cheaper than any other coffee source we know, even taking the cost of the roaster and grinder into account.

And it is way better than Starbucks. We buy from sweetmarias.com.

Crap... yet another hobby to pursue.:faint: I LOVE COFFEE... and I'm tired of paying the price for SBuks(but it's soooo good)... So you are saying I can make coffee that tastes better than starbucks AND IS cheaper?:eyebrow:

The wife is gonna hate me for it but....:rolleyes: OH well!:D

Love this thread!

I'm wondering what conclusion Stabile came to re:Focalin, as I'm taking that med right now. ;-p

And speaking of, I'm curious where I would find out how many ADD patients are trying a combo of both the methylphenidate and amphetamine salt drugs?

Some people take a couple dexedrine and are able to sleep. Anythings possible ...