View Full Version : Neurofeedback, braingym, cogmed, learning breakthrough...


MuscleMama
11-05-09, 01:02 PM
Neurofeedback / biofeedback / neurotherapy
Brain Gym
Learning Breakthrough
Cogmed


I am researching all of these things to see if they might be appropriate (and affordable!) for my son. Any thoughts or experiences to share? Any other programs people have found helpful? Thanks!

Dizfriz
11-05-09, 02:52 PM
Neurofeedback / biofeedback / neurotherapy
Brain Gym
Learning Breakthrough
Cogmed


I am researching all of these things to see if they might be appropriate (and affordable!) for my son. Any thoughts or experiences to share? Any other programs people have found helpful? Thanks!

None of these have been validated as an effective treatment for ADHD. Neurofeedback has some indications of possibly being something worthwhile but the jury is still out.

Now some will be helped by any of the programs if for no other reason than the attention involved. I would recommend caution if they are very expensive.

You have to balance the cost vs possible results. If you have the discretionary income to spend, they probably will not hurt and could help. "You pays your money and takes your chances" is generally what you are looking at.

A small note: The Cogmed program is connected with David Rabiner. He is a respected researcher and if nothing else, he is not likely to be involved in a "Snake Oil" product. However, as he will freely admit, Cogmed is still a work in progress and needs more research.

He has some good articles on his web site. Here is a link to his web site map..
http://www.helpforadd.com/site-map.html

He also has a good article on the status of neurofeedback.
http://www.helpforadd.com/2007/september.htm

I was cautious about him at first as he was pushing a product but I have developed respect for his work.

Keep on researching. Knowledge is the key to dealing with ADHD

Dizfriz

Tara
11-05-09, 06:13 PM
Nintendo Brain Age and Lumosity are similar to Cogmed and more affordable. I heard Russell Barkely speak back in September and he suggested saving a bit of money and trying out Nintendo Brain Age instead of Cogmed. He also said that studies showed that Cogmed has the most boring using interface compared to other Working Memory Training Software Programs.

I also heard that Lumosity had similar results to Cogmed. However I don't remember if the research was done on the general population or if it was ADHD Specific.

Ms. Mango
11-05-09, 06:52 PM
Another one to add to your list is interactive metronome. There is one study that looks promising:

http://www.mcnattlearningcenter.com/services/im/files/IM.pdf

(This was the only link I could find that reproduced the entire article.)

Here is the link to interactive metonome:

http://www.interactivemetronome.com/IMPublic/Home.aspx

Our insurance covers this if provided by an occupational therapist. I've heard it costs $1,500-$2000 if paid out-of-pocket but can't confirm. I'd love to do it, but my son might be a bit too young to get most out of it. Also, it needs to be done at least three times a week for a total of at least 15 sessions. Scheduling nightmare! Maybe next summer...

Dizfriz
11-06-09, 08:32 AM
A very good and science based analysis of alternative treatments can be found at The National Resource Center on AD/HD: Funded by the CDC, it is the nation's
clearinghouse for science-based information about all aspects of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (AD/HD). http://www.help4adhd.org/ (home page)

And the article on complementary and alternative treatments, how to judge:
http://www.help4adhd.org/en/treatment/complementary/WWK6

Good information for those trying to evaluate alternative treatments.

Dizfriz

MuscleMama
11-06-09, 12:34 PM
Thanks, guys - good feedback :) We have a Nintendo DS, so trying out BrainAge/Lumosity is definitely doable.

I spoke to a local Dr (Needham) who does neurotherapy and really liked what she had to say and her approach - HOWEVER it would cost about $5500 for the full program! That simply isn't an option for us.

I spoke to a Dr in Braintree who has moved from doing neuropsych evals and counseling to exclusively working with cogmed and his program is $1500. It specifically targets working memory which does seem to be an issue for my son.

I am going to attend a free presentation at a neurofeedback center in Providence in a couple of weeks to learn more about it, but I'm sure the cost will be prohibitive.

I believe a local OT does the interactive metronome program so I will read up on that.

I wonder if it's possible to find any research studies where my son could get involved and receive free treatment. Boston isn't too far away, I will see what I can find (if anything). I also wonder if practitioners need to get so many hours of training before becoming certified and if we could work with someone that way for free. Hmmm...

The Learning Breakthrough program is only $400 to buy the kit and you do it at home, but I wonder if it will be a constant struggle to get my son to do it. My younger son doesn't have adhd, but does have gross motor delays and could probably benefit from it, too. Their website says they recently were endorsed by the Hallowell Centers, any thoughts on that? (I wonder if I could find it being resold on Ebay!) I do think my son(s) could benefit from the physical movement and potential motor improvements.

So many things to research and consider!

MuscleMama
11-06-09, 02:03 PM
From DizFriz's link above http://www.help4adhd.org/en/treatment/complementary/WWK6

Interactive Metronome Training
Interactive Metronome Training is a relatively new intervention for individuals with AD/HD. The Interactive Metronome (IM) is a computerized version of a simple metronome -- i.e. what musicians use to "keep the beat" -- and produces a rhythmic beat that individuals attempt to match with hand or foot tapping. Auditory feedback is provided, which indicates how well the individual is matching the beat. It is suggested that improvement in matching the beat over repeated sessions reflects gains in motor planning and timing skills.
The rationale behind IM training is that motor planning and timing deficits are common in children with AD/HD and are related to problems with behavioral inhibition that some experts believe are critical to understanding the disorder. In addition, these deficits are alleviated by stimulant medication treatment. Thus, it is plausible that interventions to improve motor timing and planning abilities directly, such as IM training, could also be helpful to children with AD/HD. There is no evidence that motor in-coordination is related to behavioral inhibition.
To date, there has been a single study of IM training for boys with AD/HD.15 This was a well-conducted study with appropriate control groups, and the results indicated that boys who received IM training showed improvements in a wide range of areas. Thus, this intervention appears to be promising.
Additional research using IM training in individuals with AD/HD is necessary, however, before the value of this approach can be known with greater certainty.



Also, that page linked to a page specifically about neurofeedback
http://help4adhd.org/en/treatment/complementary/WWK6A


Further Research Needed Neurofeedback continues to be an intervention that generates much interest and attention from both researchers and consumers alike. While there is enough evidence to warrant its continued study as a possible intervention to reduce AD/HD symptoms, current research does not support conclusive claims about its efficacy. Based on the available evidence and the cost involved, parents and others should continue to exercise caution if considering neurofeedback as an intervention for themselves or their child.



And the Lumosity website looks very interesting (and affordable)
http://www.lumosity.com/info/home

Vickie
11-06-09, 03:04 PM
To look for ADHD clinicals go to: http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term=adhd
There is a neurofeedback study in the Netherlands and there was a computer base treatment trial at Tufts in Boston but it is complete. You might contact them and see if data will be coming out soon or if they are planning a similar trial.

MuscleMama
11-24-09, 12:07 PM
We attended the neurofeedback presentation last week and got input from his pediatrician and therapists and have decided to give it a try. Our insurance will cover most of the preliminary testing so we will just need to pay for the sessions ourselves, which while not cheap, is doable. I was very impressed with Dr. Laurence Hirshberg at the NeuroDevelopment Center in Providence, RI - he went over a lot of science and research during his presentation which jived with what I have been researching and learning myself. He didn't promise a miracle cure, but said they do see measurable improvement in about 80% of cases, often quite significant.

My son seems to be taking a slight turn for the worse lately and I'm worried about him.

If anyone is interested, I was thinking I could start a new thread and post about the experience as we go along.

Here is the website of the NDC: www .neurodevelopmentcenter.com

They also provide Cogmed memory training and said the company is considering a new pricing structure - they're offering it for $800 (compared to $1500). Makes it a much more affordable option.

river09
11-24-09, 12:19 PM
this looks interesting...haven't tried, but who knows.
EFT...emotional freedom therapy

MuscleMama
11-24-09, 01:04 PM
this looks interesting...haven't tried, but who knows.
EFT...emotional freedom therapy


Interesting, but I don't think 'unresolved emotional issues' are the main cause of my 8 y/o's ADHD. While I do believe there is a 'connection between your body's subtle energies, your emotions, and your health', I don't see how this type of therapy is going to effect the neurodevelopmental change we're hoping for.

Ms. Mango
11-24-09, 07:33 PM
If anyone is interested, I was thinking I could start a new thread and post about the experience as we go along.



I'd be interested.

mctavish23
11-24-09, 09:30 PM
I hope it proves beneficial.

I recall we've had some interesting & informative dialogue on this topic in the not too

distant past.

For the record, the only true evidence based treatments ( as of today) are meds, behavior

management and a combination of the 2.

The neurofeedback research is very intriguing and I ( as in IMO) think it holds some

possible promise.

At any rate, I wish all of you much good luck.


tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

FrazzleDazzle
11-24-09, 09:39 PM
MuscleMama, it would definitely be cool if you had a running thread somewhere here about your experience with the NFB as you go along with it with your child. I did that with some of the movement-based therapies my son and I did, and it not only helps others who are looking for more information about a therapy, but it helps to look back and see the progress made along the way. If you wanted member feedback along the way, you could post a thread, or if you were not aware, we have the blog feature here that you could keep just your posts and other can comment on your entries, or you could do a journal thread (I think it's farther down on the sections page) where you can have a running thread of only your posts, and members only can read it-I belive non-members cannot access that feature.

MuscleMama
11-26-09, 03:38 PM
I've been reading thru some older threads about neurofeedback and found a link to this 3/09 article by David Rabiner which I thought was good:

New Study Supports Neurofeedback Treatment for ADHD
http://www.sharpbrains.com/blog/2009/03/11/new-study-supports-neurofeedback-treatment-for-adhd/

I keep coming back to the phrase "cautiously optimistic" when talking about this with family and friends. :)

FrazzleDazzle
11-26-09, 10:09 PM
Just a word of encouragement: If I were to do additional therapies for my son, it would be either IM or CogMed, to supplement what we have already done. I have done much reading and talking with individuals who have done both, both have great feedback from their participants and from the providers, and have promising positive research to support them. Neurofeedback, from feedback I have received, is a little more sketchy per user feedback. Like with any therapy, your individual mileage may vary, but we have these young ones in our hands for only so long and neuroplasticity is a strong possibility (actually at any age), if you have the money and the time to invest, it well may be well worth it.

When looking into CogMed, I did sign up for a period of time with Lumosity. It is fun and the games are very good and with a purpose, the program is easy to follow, and tracks your progress and moves you along by your individual scores. CogMed is MUCH more intense and for a longer period of time per session, but I think the activities are somewhat the same.

MuscleMama
11-26-09, 10:33 PM
Thanks, FrazzleDazzle. I'm actually wondering if it might be beneficial to do Cogmed after completing the neurofeedback. Maybe he would get more out of the Cogmed that way and maybe the Cogmed would help reinforce the neurofeedback. Or maybe not, I'm just bouncing ideas around in my head.

Maybe we can continue to try different therapies (as our budget allows). I may consider trying to do the Learning Breakthrough program at home over the summer with both boys. IM is another option to keep in mind, too.

The qEEG test is very interesting, I'm surprised I haven't heard more about it. It's accuracy in diagnosing adhd is very impressive, Rabiner had an interesting article about it on that sharpbrains site. (I'll find the link if anyone is interested) I'm so curious to see what it shows about my son. I've been wondering if it would give us any helpful info about my younger son, too. Perhaps his fine and gross motor issues reside in a certain area of the brain, too? He is a bit of a mystery, his issues aren't as obvious and 'in your face' as his brothers', but they are definitely real and we don't know why he has them. Heck, I'd be curious what a qEEG showed about my brain, too.

MuscleMama
12-02-09, 09:34 PM
I've been reading lots of interesting articles that I thought I'd share

New Study Supports Neurofeedback Treatment for ADHD
http://www.sharpbrains.com/blog/2009/03/11/new-study-supports-neurofeedback-treatment-for-adhd/

Neurofeedback/ Quantitative EEG for ADHD diagnosis
http://www.sharpbrains.com/blog/2008/11/23/neurofeedback-quantitative-eeg-for-adhd-diagnosis/

Promising Cognitive Training Studies for ADHD
http://www.sharpbrains.com/blog/2008/06/12/promising-cognitive-training-studies-for-adhd/


My son had a qEEG done yesterday so they can make a 'brain map' that will help guide the neurofeedback treatments. We had to pay $400 out of pocket because while my insurance will cover the test, the place we are going to is not a network provider. I believe it will be about 3 weeks to get the results of the qEEG. I have a meeting tomorrow to go over what will happen next.

He had to not take his Concerta for a couple of days before the test and he was a lunatic! I was shocked by how out of control he was. I don't remember him being this crazy before he started meds, it was like an ultra-nightmare rebound! Thankfully he is much better once he took the concerta again.

I am looking into getting a qEEG for my younger son and trying to find an in-network provider. Maybe it will give us some helpful info for him, too.

MGDAD
12-03-09, 01:45 PM
I read the second article listed. The poor accuracy of the attention rating questionaires was amazing. If those statistics are correct, it means the questionaires are almost useless. The 90% accuracy of the QEEg was impressive.

I wonder what you will do if you find out that the QEEg test says that your child does not have ADHD? Since you already know that the medication helps him?

MuscleMama
12-03-09, 03:51 PM
Isn't it amazing!? I find this stuff fascinating. I shared the articles with our pediatrician who was pretty impressed and interested. He said he'd be happy to write an order for a qEEG if I can find an in-network provider since he's curious what it would show and it can't hurt.

The meeting today with NDC was good. They asked lots of questions and gave me a few questionnaires for me and his teacher. It's hard not to be excited about treatment, it could really make such a positive difference for my son. I am very hopeful. We should have our first training session in a week or two. I asked about doing extra sessions during xmas vacation which they said is definitely an option (and would be convenient for me).

MGDAD, I honestly don't know what I would do, but I would be very surprised if it did show that. I guess I'll jump off that bridge if I come to it :D

Dizfriz
12-03-09, 05:00 PM
At the moment there are no tests that are considered valid for diagnosing ADHD. That inlucdes qEEG, Tova or any other test protocols.

The diagnostic protocol suggested by advised by American Academy of Pediatrics is pretty much what we have and is the standard used.

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics%3b105/5/1158

Perhaps this may change in the future but that is currently what we have.

Dizfriz

MGDAD
12-03-09, 07:10 PM
Diz,

A nine year old guideline is all that we have? Seriously.... There has been a lot more research done since then.

Although, one thing to note. It says to check for comorbidity of a variety of a lot of things, including mood dissorders. Therefore, even if following that outdated guideline, if you don't rule out mood dissorders, your not doing a thorough assessment. No?

Dizfriz
12-04-09, 10:44 AM
Diz,

A nine year old guideline is all that we have? Seriously.... There has been a lot more research done since then.

Yep, that is pretty much what we have. The American Academy of Pediatrics guideline reference I gave is considered to be current as far as I know. If anyone has information to the contrary, please let me know a cite. I am always interested in changes in the diagnostic or treatment protocols and there is always the chance that some new development in this area may may have slipped by me. I am no longer active in working with this and do not spend the time keeping up as I used to (I still have some back issues of the ADHD report I need to read).

On the qEEG, I am somewhat familiar with the work of Dr Rabiner and he is doing some good research into the diagnosis and treatment of ADHD using neurological methods. While his work shows some real promise, there is more work to be done, as I suspect he would readily admit, before it becomes an accepted diagnostic protocol and I wish him well. I try to keep track of his work. If he can could come up with a validated test for ADHD it would a real advancement.

In the meantime, to the best of my knowledge, my statement still stands, there are currently no tests considered to be valid for the diagnosis of ADHD and the AAP protocol remains standard for now. Hopefully this will change in the near future.

I do understand what you are saying on the protocol. While there has been a lot of work on trying to get a good accepted test for ADHD, it has been a long time without any real changes. There are some promising things in the pipeline but they must survive the rigors of scientific testing and validation.

Although, one thing to note. It says to check for comorbidity of a variety of a lot of things, including mood dissorders. Therefore, even if following that outdated guideline, if you don't rule out mood dissorders, your not doing a thorough assessment. No?Any good assessement for ADHD must look into the possibility of other disorders mimicking ADHD or comorbid with it. This is not always easy to do however and in fact the term "RO mood disorder", for example, on an assessment report usually means the there is a possibility of a mood disorder but it cannot be confirmed. This alerts someone reading the report to be aware of that possibility. In reality, it is often, if not usually, not possible be able to totally rule out mood disorders in young children presenting with ADHD.

The biggest diagnostic key for the existence of bipolar is a family history of bipolar. Without that confirmed, it becomes tricky to rule in or out and many cases of bipolar will be missed especially in children. Bear in mind that this is one of the cases where a false positive can have a big impact on lives and caution is necessary. I wish it was other but that is what we have for now.

One of the problems is that the better defined diagnostic symptoms often do not occur until mid to later adolescent. Lots of things going on to improve this but, as is so much in the field, it is work in progress.

Interesting points.


Dizfriz

MGDAD
12-04-09, 01:45 PM
Ok. Getting a bit off of the original topic, but I need to add something to this discussion of the nine year old "Treatment Protocol" that you listed. It may be the latest concise protocol, but if you are in the business of diagnosing children, you need to keep up with the latest research. Based on that research, you have every right and obligation to modify your diagnostic and treatment protocols, based on the latest research. I know there are publications for professionals, I have seen a professional periodical specifically on ADHD. Plus, there are plenty of professional conferences where you learn about the latest research, (there was a big one in Las Vegas a month ago). You dont have to follow the guidelines of a nine year old protocol to the letter.

There is plenty of research validating the qEEG test, as in its use in validating ADHD. Also, according to some of the articles above, it is valid evidence in a court of law, meaning it is generally accepted as valid in the scientific community. So, by saying that it is not in your nine year old protocol, thus it is not a valid tool to diagnose ADHD, just does not follow.

Same with those brain computer games. There is plenty of research showing that they can improve working memory, so again to say they are not proven techniques for helping kids with ADHD does not seem right either.

MuscleMama
12-04-09, 01:58 PM
Thanks, MGDAD, that's what I was thinking, but didn't know how to say. The 3 articles above are specifically saying that research has now shown that these things are effective. I expect we will start hearing more and more about these new ways to diagnose and treat adhd.

Dizfriz
12-05-09, 02:38 PM
MGDAD

Your bring up some interesting points that I feel need to be discussed. One thing of possible importance: The ADHD Report has a special issue "Focus on Assessment" which I have not received yet. I will review this when I get it and will post an update on assessment for ADHD since this is a subject of interest on the forum.

In the meantime: Ok. Getting a bit off of the original topic, but I need to add something to this discussion of the nine year old "Treatment Protocol" that you listed. It may be the latest concise protocol, but if you are in the business of diagnosing children, you need to keep up with the latest research. Based on that research, you have every right and obligationto modify your diagnostic and treatment protocols, based on the latest research. I know there are publications for professionals, I have seen a professional periodicalspecifically on ADHD. Plus, there are plenty of professional conferences where you learn about the latest research, (there was a big one in Las Vegas a month ago). You don't haveto follow the guidelines of a nine year old protocol to the letter. I am not really understanding your objection here and I think there might be some confusion. I refer to the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) diagnostic protocol because I feel it will help readers better understand how the diagnostic process is done. It has good graphics and I generally like the way it is presented. Despite your objections, it is still considered current. I normally used the protocol recommended by Russell Barkley but the AAP and the AACAP protocols are based on Barkley's work.

On another issue: I may misunderstand, but you seem to imply that because I sometimes refer to the AAP protocol on the forum that I did not keep up my training and neglected keeping up with the research on the assessment of ADHD. An interesting assertion considering my posting history on the forum. I really do not think you can back this up.

Now I freely admit that, mainly due to family medical issues, that I no longer spend the number of hours keeping up as I did before retirement (two years ago). I have not quit researching but simply have less time to spend at it. Hopefully this will change in the near future but I cannot guarantee it.

Now on to your objections: If you do not like the AAP protocol then perhaps you might look into the more recent AACAP (American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry) protocol dated 2007. It pretty much covers the ground advocated by the AAP but in some more detail to take in the latest data. http://www.aacap.org/galleries/PracticeParameters/JAACAP_ADHD_2007.pdf

The help4adhd recap of the AACAP protocol states: "These practice parameters focus on the assessment, diagnostic, and treatment planning process, emphasizing a developmental perspective. Recommendations are based on extensive review of the scientific literature and clinical consensus among experts in the subject. Assessment includes clinical interviews with the child and parents and standardized rating scales from parent and teachers. Testing of intelligence and and academic achievement is usually required. Comorbidity is common." http://www.help4adhd.org/en/treatment/guides/aacap

You might note that this pretty much supports my statements on the role of tests for diagnosing ADHD. If it is any help, I will now refer to both protocols when discussing the subject. The purpose of referring to these is to help parents understand how assessments for ADHD are done. If you have this objection, others may have similar questions so in that way your post was helpful-Thanks!

Back to this: Based on that research, you have every right and obligation to modify your diagnostic and treatment protocols, based on the latest research. No clinician has an obligation to change diagnostic or treatment protocols every time a new study comes along. I do feel I have the obligation to follow the diagnostic and treatment recommendations that reflect the current clinical consensus of those who are considered experts in the field. You may feel differently, but I consider this as an ethical obligation. I feel that I cannot use methods that have not received the consensus opinion of being a currently seen as valid primary instruments for diagnosing ADHD. As secondary instruments I can use any or all of the tests which I feel may be useful and for which I am trained.

Currently, to the best of my knowledge, testing procedures are generally seen as useful for backing up diagnosis and for discovering comorbid conditions but are not recommended as primary diagnostic tools. This is very much subject to change and I hope it does in the fairly near future.

There is plenty of research validating the qEEG test, as in its use in validating ADHD. Also, according to some of the articles above, it is valid evidence in a court of law, meaning it is generally accepted as valid in the scientific community. So, by saying that it is not in your nine year old protocol, thus it is not a valid tool to diagnose ADHD, just does not follow.As a note: Here is what Barkley had to say about the qEEG:"The EEG (QEEG) is showing some promise in accurately distinguishing children with ADHD from non disabled children, but has not yet demonstrated sufficient classification accuracy among disorders (a more stringent test) to merit an unqualified endorsement for diagnostic purposes at this time." "Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder- A Handbook for Diagnosis and Treatment" third edition (2006) page 362.

A point: Being admitted in a court does not imply that it is accepted by science. Some very strange things have been admitted as evidence in court.

OK, please show me where the qEEG is considered by the general scientific consensus of experts in the field to be validated for diagnosis of ADHD. This may have changed but I have not seen it in the literature but it is possible I could have missed it-been busy).

Hopefully the ADHD Report issue on assessment will shed some light. I am quite quite interested in this as I am always looking for data which will upgrade my knowledge. An integral part of science is to change when new information comes in.

I am looking forward to hearing from you on this. Same with those brain computer games. There is plenty of research showing that they can improve working memory, so again to say they are not proven techniques for helping kids with ADHD does not seem right either. I do not remember saying anything about computer games in the thread. Please point it out so I can address the issue.

I suspect that I perhaps did not communicate my thoughts as well as perhaps I should as you seem to very much misunderstand what I was trying to say. I am really puzzled where you got the idea that I had done no research after the AAP protocol was published. I will mark it up to my not communicating as well as I should. It does happen especially in a forum discussion where restrictions of time will result in perhaps shorter posts than would be ideal. Available time is a factor and it takes me a good bit of that to write more lengthy posts as I am really a slow writer. I will take responsibility for what seems to be misunderstanding on what I was trying to say.

Dizfriz

MGDAD
12-07-09, 02:13 PM
I did not mean to say that you had not stayed up to date. Although, I can see how that was implied in my post. My intent was to say that ones treatment protocol can be modified based on more current research. I am not saying to modify it based on one study, just to modify it based on newer research. For example, Cochrane reviews.

As far as the legality of the qEEG, that is based on info provided in the article listed below.

http://www.neurorehabinstitute.com/pdf/QEEG_Testing.pdf

Her is the quote from that article.

"QEEG is admissible in court by virtue of
the Daubert criteria of the scientific
method, which replaced the Frye standards
of “general acceptance” in establishing the
standards for admissibility of evidence in
federal court in a 1993 Supreme Court
decision. Since 1923, the Frye test had held
that expert testimony that is based upon a
scientific testimony is inadmissible unless
the technique is “generally accepted in the
scientific community.”

Dizfriz
12-07-09, 07:41 PM
MGDAD

I did not mean to say that you had not stayed up to date. Although, I can see how that was implied in my post. My intent was to say that ones treatment protocol can be modified based on more current research. I am not saying to modify it based on one study, just to modify it based on newer research. For example, Cochrane reviews. Thank your for your kind response, I appreciate it. Now on to the discussion at hand.

Again, I refer often to the AAP protocols on the forum because I feel it helps readers in understanding the diagnostic process, that is all. It is still considered to be current and in effect and no one has to follow it but it is there for a reason.

Do understand that clinicians can and usually do have their own protocols but these have to be backed up. A clinician always has to keep in mind that they may have to defend their work in court with a very nasty lawyer trying to tear the clinicians work apart or they find themselves having to defend to the license board if someone makes a complaint. Caution makes good practice and good sense.

You seem to under the impression that somehow I am against the use of the qEEG. Rest assured I am not. In fact I want it to succeed. I would be thrilled if it is validated as a diagnostic tool. We so much need something besides clinical judgement to make these diagnoses but the tools have to be valid.

I see the qEEG in the same category as neurofeedback. It is quite promising but has not yet passed the threshold to be considered as a validated diagnostic instrument. I do not think Rabiner would disagree with this too much. He is a very good scientist.

You might note that the help4adhd site only has a passing mention to the qEEG. It is the National Resource Center on AD/HD as established by the Center for Disease Control and reflects well the current consensus on the subject of ADHD.

As far as the legality of the qEEG, that is based on info provided in the article listed below.

http://www.neuropathologists.com/pdf/QEEG_Testing.pdf

Her is the quote from that article.

"QEEG is admissible in court by virtue of
the Daubert criteria of the scientific
method, which replaced the Frye standards
of “general acceptance” in establishing the
standards for admissibility of evidence in
federal court in a 1993 Supreme Court
decision. Since 1923, the Frye test had held
that expert testimony that is based upon a
scientific testimony is inadmissible unless
the technique is “generally accepted in the
scientific community.”
Admissibility in court is a different subject than the one being addressed. While this is not my area of expertise, I think that you will find that most published psychological tests will pass this threshold, the qEEG among them. This standard does not address the quality or validity of the instruments.

You might also note that this document is written by a member of a for profit clinic using this as as part of the package they are marketing. Nothing wrong with that as such but one must always approach with a grain of salt when the writer has a vested interest in the acceptance of what they are selling.

As an aside: Rabiner has a vested business interest in neurofeedback but discloses this up front so there is no breach of ethics. I was very cautious about him at first because of this but I have come to accept and respect him as a serious researcher.

I think that it may be useful to discuss why I continue to warn that different things are not accepted as validated tests or treatments for ADHD. I have seen all too many times parents desperate to get help for their kids spend money for expensive treatments or testing that they cannot afford. They may deprive themselves and the other children to do this and all too often get little or no results. I do not care if people use these alternative methods, I just want them to go in with their eyes open and especially if it is expensive then have some good information on which to base a decision.

Not too long ago someone posted here who presented himself as a psychologist selling neurofeedback made the claim that he could raise IQ by 20 points using this rather expensive treatment. This is bull but parents will be sucked in. If they have the discretionary income to do this I tell them to have it, it probably can't hurt and perhaps might help. If they don't then I strongly advise caution. I do not care if someone wants to get a qEEG. I do care that they know what they are getting into.


Oh yes, I looked at the Cochrane reviews and will have to go back to understand what they are doing. I put in the search term "ADHD" and got no result. I put in "Attention deficit" with the same result. I put in "Russell Barkley" again with no result. Probably not using it right.

I now normally use medline and google scholar to check research. I used to read Science Daily at least weekly to keep up. It isn't perfect as it is only press releases but it good on the newest research deemed worthy (by themselves) of press coverage. Might be worth your while to check it out if you are not familiar with it.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/

I always enjoy discussing with you.

Dizfriz

MGDAD, the oddest thing just happened. I was logging back the site to check something on the article you referenced and it was gone and in it's place was this message:

Neuropathologists.com

Buy this domain

The domain neuropathologists.com may be for sale by its owner! (http://www.sedo.com/search/details.php4?domain=neuropathologists.com&partnerid=14460&language=e&et_cid=25&et_lid=65)

Ten minutes hadn't passed since I was on it.

Strange.

Diz

Vickie
12-08-09, 01:47 PM
EEG instruments are registered with the FDA as class II devices and they just have to show that they are equivalent to a predicate device. In order to make the claim that they (and the software and database) can be used for diagnosing ADHD, the company must do clinical trials and prove it is acceptable for diagnosis.

One company, Neurolex provided pilot data in 2005? and then did a "pivotal" study from Dec 2007 to June 2008 but has not received approval or added the data to the clinitrials.gov site:
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00595751?term=eeg+adhd&rank=3 and http://neba.lexicor.com/

There are other studies (past and present) on diagnostic applications of eeg:
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term=eeg
as well as biofeedback:
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term=biofeedback+adhd

Just to add a little more info to this interesting discussion.

MuscleMama
12-11-09, 08:59 AM
My younger son had a consult with a neurologist at Childrens Hospital in Boston yesterday. It was a follow up to his evaluation for fine and gross motor delays. He wants to have a MRI done of his spine and brain just to check for any problems. I asked about the qEEG and he said it might be helpful so they scheduled one for him, too. They call it a BEAM there and said it might be a little different from what my older son had done at the Neurodevelopment Ctr. It won't be until February. Insurance should cover it, so that's good.

I have to drop off some forms at the Neurodevelopment Ctr today. They called yesterday and said the qEEG report is done and I need to schedule an appt with the Dr to go over everything and then the training sessions can start. So hopefully it will start next week!

*KJ*
12-11-09, 03:50 PM
My son had a BEAM at CHOB too.

It was VERY helpful.

I think the reason that it differs is that the results of the qEEG will be compared to a database. In that database is a collection of data from patients that have been confirmed to have differing diagnosis/syndromes.

An EEG generally looks for abnormal or haphazard activity (seizures for example) but the qEEG can see abnormal functioning (as in delayed or immature or atypical). The data when compared, I think is what changes it from a qEEG to a BEAM study...I think.

When my son had his, they suspected LKS. We later learned that he was having a metabolic reaction. After altering his diet the abnormal activity stopped and he was able to wean off of anticonvulsants.

Here is a link to CHOB's description, although it doesn't use the term BEAM.

http://www.childrenshospital.org/az/Site1509/mainpageS1509P0.html

I found a link a long time ago that explained the process...if memory serves there is a protocol for the test...where they will attempt to activate certain parts of the brain (using light, sound, voice, motor function, etc.) that 'map' is what is then compared to this humoungus database...they can then draw some pretty good conclusions about the functionality of the brain and then discuss treatments & interventions (which will not include neurofeedback).

eg.
"Your son's brain behaves identically to...."
"Your son's brain behaves similarly to...."
"Your son's brain behaves like a combo of...."

Things like ADHD, bipolar, skitophrenia, LKS, autism, etc etc are all in that database.

MuscleMama, does your Dr's name start with an "S" and sound similar to a frozen fruity desert?

MuscleMama
12-11-09, 11:23 PM
Thanks, KJ :) The neurologist we saw was a Dr. Coulter and I believe he said that a Dr. Duffy does the BEAMs. (is there a reason I shouldn't list the name here?)

How did they pinpoint the metabolic reaction?

lostsoul
12-11-09, 11:42 PM
Hi,

I haven't gone through the whole thread, but wanted to chime in my experience with COGMED.

I did the cogmed program last year. At first I found it useful and working, but then soon after I stopped I had lost all benefits that I gained. While this could be helpful, it would need to be done on a continuous basis... this is why nintendo's brain age game could be a good substitute.

My optometrist's son has ADHD and he said that a while after doing COGMED his son seems to be losing the benefits.

tessmesser
12-13-09, 04:06 PM
EEG Neurobiofeedback treatment to treat ADHD started in the 1970's. A recent (2009) thorough review of journal articles looking at all the published studies on the effect of EEG Neurobiofeedback and ADHD has been recently published. The reviewers concluded that this treatment is effective for both the hyperactive/Impulsive subtype of ADHD and the inattentive subtype of ADHD.

The studies report that it works and that the results are permanent. It is however expensive and NOT covered, at this point, by most insurance companies.

http://primarilyinattentiveadd.blogspot.com/2009/12/eeg-neurobiofeedback-and-adhd.html

Tess

Dizfriz
12-13-09, 06:02 PM
EEG Neurobiofeedback treatment to treat ADHD started in the 1970's. A recent (2009) thorough review of journal articles looking at all the published studies on the effect of EEG Neurobiofeedback and ADHD has been recently published. The reviewers concluded that this treatment is effective for both the hyperactive/Impulsive subtype of ADHD and the inattentive subtype of ADHD.

The studies report that it works and that the results are permanent. It is however expensive and NOT covered, at this point, by most insurance companies.

http://primarilyinattentiveadd.blogspot.com/2009/12/eeg-neurobiofeedback-and-adhd.html

Tess
Can you give a reference on the study?

Dizfriz

MuscleMama
12-13-09, 11:56 PM
Hi,

I haven't gone through the whole thread, but wanted to chime in my experience with COGMED.

I did the cogmed program last year. At first I found it useful and working, but then soon after I stopped I had lost all benefits that I gained. While this could be helpful, it would need to be done on a continuous basis... this is why nintendo's brain age game could be a good substitute.

My optometrist's son has ADHD and he said that a while after doing COGMED his son seems to be losing the benefits.

Thanks for your feedback. Do you mind if I ask how old you are? Did you follow up with the provider about losing the benefits? What was their response?

MuscleMama
12-13-09, 11:57 PM
EEG Neurobiofeedback treatment to treat ADHD started in the 1970's. A recent (2009) thorough review of journal articles looking at all the published studies on the effect of EEG Neurobiofeedback and ADHD has been recently published. The reviewers concluded that this treatment is effective for both the hyperactive/Impulsive subtype of ADHD and the inattentive subtype of ADHD.

The studies report that it works and that the results are permanent. It is however expensive and NOT covered, at this point, by most insurance companies.

http://primarilyinattentiveadd.blogspot.com/2009/12/eeg-neurobiofeedback-and-adhd.html

Tess

Thanks, Tess. I am very hopeful. I would also like to see the 2009 review you mentioned.

MuscleMama
12-14-09, 09:14 AM
This was not a good weekend. My son had a major meltdown about doing his homework for the gifted program. It was awful. He just can't get the information out of his head and on to the page. He gets so upset and frustrated and at one point said, "I'm worthless!" We are always encouraging him, I hate that he feels that way about himself at 8 years old. :( I don't see how he will be able to stay in the program if things don't change soon.

I brought both boys to the local high school on Saturday for the swine flu vaccine. It took an hour of waiting in a very long line, which was a painful experience. Why are my kids the only ones bouncing off the walls while all the other ones seem to be standing patiently with their parents?!? It's not like I was ignoring them, I was constantly watching them allowing them a little freedom to move around (because I know how hard it is for the older one to be in that situation, he describes it as "torture") and they would continue to take it too far. I was frustrated, irritated and embarrassed. I told my husband that night that I honestly don't know what I am doing wrong, it's not like I wasn't trying. :( I had my own little breakdown that afternoon, too...

I have a meeting with the NDC Wednesday afternoon and I think the training can start after that. I have to admit that I am really hoping this works. I am trying not expect too much, but we really need help.

MGDAD
12-14-09, 02:38 PM
It kind of makes sense that you would loose the benefits after quiting the training. Just like the meds quit working when you quit taking them.

Leaves you with the question of how you determine if a treatment "works" or not. Do the brain training games have to cause "permanent" increases in performance to be considered effective? That certainly is not a requirement when judging a medications effectiveness.

MuscleMama
12-17-09, 09:23 PM
Yesterday I met with the Dr to go over the qEEG. It was interesting, if a little hard to totally follow. My son's results were a little atypical in that he didn't have the majority of issues in the frontal lobe, but showed a lot of issues in the back of the head in the parietal lobe. He said it made sense considering he is very good at some things and not so good at others. He also showed some issues in the area of auditory/visual processing which could be the visual tracking and memory issues my son has. The Dr said we could start any time so I scheduled his first training session for today.

We went down tonight and he trained for 15 minutes. They always only do 15 minutes for the first session since some people have a strong reaction. I didn't really notice much difference tonight other than he did seem to be in a good mood.

He goes next week on Tuesday, which will be the only day next week because of xmas. The following week is school vacation and we're scheduled for 3 days that week.

Time will tell. :)

MuscleMama
12-18-09, 01:56 PM
I'm a little distraught. I just got back from the 504 plan review meeting for my younger son. He is in kindergarten and receives OT & PT for fine and gross motor delays. I was expecting that they would say that he will continue to receive the services for another year and that would be about it. Instead the OT, PT and teacher all expressed concern about his delays and that he is really struggling in the classroom and falling further and further behind. He is bright, friendly and social and does work hard, but he is having some trouble with attention, staying on task, motor planning and visual memory. He is showing some anxiety, too. The more they talked, the more it sounded just like my older son (diagnosed with ADHD). School is starting to become a little more difficult and he is having a hard time. I was a little bit blind-sided and really disheartened. They want to do a core eval which will include speech/language and some sort of neuropsych testing (I forget exactly what they called it).

I shared with them (for the 1st time) that his older brother has been diagnosed with ADHD and has many of the same issues. I also told them that he will be having a MRI and qEEG/BEAM done in the upcoming months. I have been noticing more and more ADHD-like behavior from my younger son and have been wondering if he is developing this himself or if he is copying his big brother. Based on what the teacher said it sounds like he is developing many of these same issues. :( I wonder if they are going to recommend that he repeat kindergarten. Although he does struggle with this stuff, he is also very smart and starting to read on his own. I'd hate to see him bored and feeling bad about himself.

I am glad they are going to do more testing and am anxious to find out what the tests are going to show. I am curious how the experience of going thru Childrens Hospital with insurance will compare to what we are doing at the NDC out of pocket for our older son. What will the neurologist recommend if the BEAM shows similar issues?

Why do both of my children have these neurological problems? I hate this.

MGDAD
12-18-09, 02:48 PM
So how do those qEEG results affect what medication he takes? Since ADHD is mainly a frontal lobe problem, and the meds are supposed to help with that, what do you do now?

MuscleMama
12-18-09, 02:56 PM
So how do those qEEG results affect what medication he takes? Since ADHD is mainly a frontal lobe problem, and the meds are supposed to help with that, what do you do now?

It doesn't affect what medication he takes. He is doing well with Concerta so that won't change, other than I have increased it from 18mg to 36mg lately with better results. I asked about the frontal lobe vs the back of the head stuff specifically and he said that new research is showing that the parietal lobe is also involved with attention and things like that so it isn't that unusual to see it. I asked specifically if the qEEG showed that maybe he doesn't have ADHD and the Dr said no, it doesn't show that and it does confirm many of my son's symptoms.

MGDAD
12-18-09, 03:14 PM
Parietal lobe from Wikipedia.

The parietal lobe plays important roles in integrating sensory information from various parts of the body, knowledge of numbers and their relations[1] (http://www.addforums.com/forums/#cite_note-0), and in the manipulation of objects. Portions of the parietal lobe are involved with visuospatial processing. Although multisensory in nature, the posterior parietal cortex is often referred to by vision scientists as the dorsal stream of vision (as opposed to the ventral stream in the temporal lobe (http://www.addforums.com/wiki/Temporal_lobe)). This dorsal stream has been called both the 'where' stream (as in spatial vision)[2] (http://www.addforums.com/forums/#cite_note-Mishkin1982-1) and the 'how' stream (as in vision for action)[3] (http://www.addforums.com/forums/#cite_note-goodale1992-2).
Various studies in the 1990s found that different regions of the posterior parietal cortex in Macaques (http://www.addforums.com/wiki/Macaque) represent different parts of space.


Interesting.

MuscleMama
12-22-09, 10:36 PM
He had his second neurofeedback late this afternoon. Not much to report again other than he was in a good mood tonight and nice to his brother.

FrazzleDazzle
12-22-09, 11:10 PM
Hey, the little things are such big things. It's good news if he's not usually in a good mood in the evening or nice to his brother. :-)

MuscleMama
12-24-09, 11:48 PM
Later the night of his 2nd treatment he woke up around 11pm crying slightly and disoriented and half-asleep. I thought it was his brother at first since Harry very rarely wakes up once he's asleep. I rubbed his back for a minute and asked him what was wrong and if he'd had a scary dream. He finally said that he had a dream where he was trying to do math, but couldn't do it and was really frustrated. (Interesting!) He settled back down after a minute and went back to sleep. In the middle of the night he came to my bed and I was so tired I let him crawl in with us. The next day he had a fever and he's been sick, so I'm not sure if his sleep disturbance was from the neurofeedback or getting sick.

He said that last night he had an intense dream that I was going to get rid of his little brother and he was really upset and trying to stop me. So it sounds like he has had some vivid dreams. Tonight for Xmas eve we had family over and he was a little more low-key than usual, which was nice.

Merry Xmas and Happy Holidays, everyone! :)

MuscleMama
01-06-10, 03:45 PM
Quick update - he has had 6 sessions as of yesterday and I really don't see any changes. He is usually in a fairly good mood after the treatment and has mentioned a few vivid dreams, but otherwise I don't notice anything significant. I'm a little disappointed since they said you usually start to notice something by the 5th session, but still hopeful.

We're going twice a week and have paid for 20 sessions at which point they will re-evalute. If there has been no change then they will do another 20 sessions at no cost.

A little off-topic, I just read a book about "twice exceptional" kids who are both gifted and learning disabled. It was very interesting and described my son very accurately. I now feel that instead of thinking that he may have to drop out of the gifted program he's in (1hr/week) that the program will need to adapt to him, and I'm willing to advocate for that if necessary. I hope it doesn't come to that, but it made me see it in a different light.

MuscleMama
01-08-10, 03:31 PM
Session 7 yesterday. I talked to one of the directors about how I was disappointed by not seeing any results so far and she said definitely not to worry yet. They did a new protocol yesterday. Last night he had this laughing fit where he was literally laughing uncontrollably. It was funny, but also a little strange. We'll see how the weekend goes.

MGDAD
01-08-10, 03:50 PM
Session 7 yesterday. I talked to one of the directors about how I was disappointed by not seeing any results so far and she said definitely not to worry yet. They did a new protocol yesterday. Last night he had this laughing fit where he was literally laughing uncontrollably. It was funny, but also a little strange. We'll see how the weekend goes.

Did the director say when you should start to worry?

meridian
01-08-10, 04:00 PM
Well, this thing is just a $100 toy, but it could at least be fun!

Google "Mattel Mindflex"

MuscleMama
01-08-10, 04:06 PM
Did the director say when you should start to worry?

Not sure if you're being a wise @ss :)

I didn't word that well, she basically said that plenty of people take a while to get results and different protocols (working in different areas of the brain) affect people differently.

MGDAD
01-11-10, 03:45 PM
I am skeptical of a lot of things, and people. So, yes I was beinng a bit of a wise @ss.

So your not seeing progress with your son, and the director reassuringly says don't worry, it can take time for some people. In my skeptical brain, that can mean two things. 1. Please keep spending money on our treatments. Ill just keep telling you to be patient to keep you coming for treatments. 2. Some patients take as long as X number of treatments, so you should keep trying until X long.

If they cant tell you what X is, then they are really just saying the first thing. (1.) IMHO

*KJ*
01-12-10, 09:18 AM
Well, this thing is just a $100 toy, but it could at least be fun!

Google "Mattel Mindflex"

I looked at some reviews, it doesn't have very many good ones.:confused:

*KJ*
01-12-10, 10:31 AM
Hi MuscleMama,

Just noticed I never did reply or tell you about our experience with Cogmed.

It's been about a year now since we first began it. I did notice some good improvements soon after starting it, and even after completing it. Problem was that DS didn't enjoy it too much, so getting him to do it was like pulling teeth.

The intitial 5 weeks was completed, even some of the "calastenics" that are provided after...but only about 25% of them...then nothing. I think we still have a little time to do some, but I doubt it will ever happen. It just gets painfully boring.

As far as it's effectiveness this far out. It's kinda hard to say...course there are always good days, and bad days. And I do find that my son easily regresses when he is not constantly practicing things...not sure if that is common with ADHDers or if that is a lingering ASD trait he has.

Nevertheless, I would have to say that a good amount of the benefit has been lost. His memory is still good, but his focus is back to where it used to be. Infact I think school work keeps his focus better in line than Cogmed did. As you know we are fresh off Christmas break, so his focus is junk right now...but I'm confident that once he get's back intot the groove of school that he will be manageable (which would be about where he was jsut after completing Cogmed).

As for the Doctors @ CHOB, I think it's just common practice not to mention the by name. We haven't said anything bad, but I think you just want to keep that stuff 'private.' As for the BEAM interpreter, INDEED! I have heard FABULOUS things about him, AND he also did DS's analysis.

Have you ever heard of LKS? That was one of DS's similarities. I don't want to get too far off subject. But if you haven't heard of it and you have a chance check that out (Landau Kleffner Syndrom). DS had some similarities there, at the time he had no speech and from the brainwave activity they could see that his speech center was virtually inactive (and consistent in some ways to other patients with it)...and that his overall brainwave pattern was immature (perhaps displaying the 30% rule???). We were counseled not to expect him to ever have speech.

He was treated as though he was LKS (with anticonvulsants) and the neuro wrote up a bunch of recommendations for therapy, (speech, communication specialist/augmentive devices, OT, play therapy, etc). Our hero is this guy (the one whose name sounds like a fruity frozen dessert :rolleyes:) But really the whole team is amazing.

I was a bit concerned because originally DS responded very negatively to the anticonvulsant (it was actually a nightmare that you really don't want to know about)...so I asked for a consultation with Dr. R (who is the - no lie- world's leading expert on LKS and who is on staff in the neuro dept @ CHOB too). He was amazing too...said that he had already reviewed DS's file (which was SO huge beyond just neuro stuff) and it was his opinion that DS had a metabolic condition and NOT LKS. But his time with me didn't end there, he spent 60 minutes with me, rolled his chair in front of the door, parked it there and literally did not move until I understood all that I needed to. :) He finally recommended that Dr. S do some labs to evaluate his metabolic state...all came back fine though :rolleyes:.

A few months later DS was scheduled for a full developmental assessment. This too was done @ CHOB, so the Dr had all his medical history at her fingertips. She diagnosed him as PDD (since he had begun speaking by then, thanks to the 2nd anticonvulsant, if he had not he would have recieved autism, and oh since he responded so well to the anticonvulsants LKS was ruled out and his neuro diag changed to seizure disorder) but she was concerned about these 'swings' that DS would have. The swings were pretty predictable and included physical as well as mental/neuro type symptoms. She went to the metabolic clinic and spoke to a Dr who had us come in. After much discussion about life with DS, she suggested that he was fructose intolerant. A metabolic condition, since fructose is metabolized in the liver not in the digestive track. To confirm this diag definatively a liver biopsy is necessary (there are some genetic tests, but they do not test for all the variants). No one would ok a liver biopsy for a child unless it's absolutely necessary...and it wasn't. The idea: if it walks & talks like a duck, it's a duck...so we restricted his diet and it was literally a miracle the change in him. Meantime we proceeded with the genetic testing...all came back negative.

Long story short...it seems it was a transient case of it. It's been documented a few times, but most cases are permenant and are life threatening. By this point we know that's not the case. But we also know through trials that it was most definately present before...several trips to the ER to deal with it and lots of complex partial seizure activity to boot! We eventually saw a GI to manage the fructose intolerance, and with much hesitation DS was treated for overgrowth. And it was all he needed to start the process toward tolerating fructose. If we had to guess why it happened it would be the round of antibiotics at 3 days old that likely set the imbalance. Then the 10 months of zantac that destroyed any acid that might have been keeping it at bay. Then a another round of antibiotics for an ear infection that sent us to the ER because he stopped eating & drinking & had a stubborn case of thrush that hung around for months!

So it seems the fructose would just sit in his stomach unable to be processed, and available for all sorts of nasties to feed and thrive off of.

How that lead to where we are now is all a bunch of speculation, could be low blood sugar lead to seizures, which lead to developmental issues. It could be the exotoxins of the overgrowth influenced his development, it could be nutritional deficiencies...could be a whole host of things. Bottom line if that Developmental Ped didn't push us, and the neuro didn't get the seizures under control...lord knows where DS would be today...I shutter to think!

I checked back today because I am anxious to see how your DS does with his eval. I hope it is helpful. I don't want you to have a whammy like we did, but do hope they are able to offer you insights that are just as monumental as they were for us! Please do continue to post all your updates!

I am sorry to read that you are not seeing what you expected or hoped for your older son!!!! I'll be praying that things 'click' somehow! Consider discussing him with the neuro when you see him in Feb as well...they may have soem advice for you!

Good Luck & looking forward to more updates!
KJ

MuscleMama
01-12-10, 10:44 AM
I am skeptical of a lot of things, and people. So, yes I was beinng a bit of a wise @ss.

So your not seeing progress with your son, and the director reassuringly says don't worry, it can take time for some people. In my skeptical brain, that can mean two things. 1. Please keep spending money on our treatments. Ill just keep telling you to be patient to keep you coming for treatments. 2. Some patients take as long as X number of treatments, so you should keep trying until X long.

If they cant tell you what X is, then they are really just saying the first thing. (1.) IMHO

I see your point, but I feel like it is too early to think like that. We paid up front for 20 sessions and they will pay for the next 20 if there are no measurable results after 20 sessions. That's just not the vibe I get from them (fwiw). Here is a copy/paste from their website:

Number of sessions needed:
Unfortunately, there is simply no way to predict how many sessions will be needed to attain the goals our clients specify in advance. We ask all those considering neurofeedback to commit themselves to a minimum of 20 sessions. Some of our clients are able to attain their goals within this time frame.

Roughly speaking, there seems to be a relationship between the severity of the problem and the length of training required. Less severe difficulties (with attention, mood, anxiety, for example) can sometimes be resolved within 20 sessions. More severe difficulties may require a longer period of training. For some types of difficulty (for example, autistic spectrum disorders) regular ongoing training may be best. In these instances, we recommend that the individual carries out the training at home under our supervision and coaching.

I can see that something like this is not easily measureable and predictable. Different people will need more or less time, different protocols, etc. Makes sense to me. Of couse I'd love for my son to respond quickly and dramatically!

Anyway, my husband and I have noticed that since the last session (Thurs of last week) that our son has been a little more low-key and nicer to his brother. I also noticed that he has not been watching as much TV and has been more interested in working in his 'lab' and playing and looking things up on the computer.

Also right around the same time that we started the neurofeedback I felt that my son was doing more poorly and I upped his Concerta dose (from 18 to 36) a few times with good results. I have not seen the need to do this in a couple of weeks, perhaps the neurofeedback is helping there.

MuscleMama
01-12-10, 10:57 AM
Wow, KJ, what an ordeal! I'm so glad your son is doing better. I'm going to read your post over a few times, that's a lot to take in :) Thanks for the Cogmed feedback, too. That's 2 people who have said the results don't seem to stay over time. Hmmm...

My younger son has his MRI tomorrow for his spine and head. I'm a little nervous. I also realized that he has this subtle spot on his back right over the spine that could mean something. It's very subtle and is only noticeable right when he gets out of the bath, but reading up on tethered cords and things like that makes me wonder if it is indicative of something. Sometimes google can give us too much info and things to worry about!

MuscleMama
01-19-10, 11:36 PM
Today was my son's 10th neurofeedback session. Still not seeing much of anything for results. sigh...

Finally heard back from the Dr on my younger son's MRI tonight. They said the results would be available Weds afternoon and I have been anxious and aggravated that I didn't hear anything. Here was his response to my email:

"The MRI is abnormal and I would like to have a chance to go over it with you this week, if possible. I could show you what we are seeing and what it means for him. Is there a time this week that would be good for you?"


So now I am even more anxious and really want to know what it is. It could potentially be good in that there is a cause for his issues and a way to treat it, but it's hard not to worry. Hopefully I can get in to see him tomorrow.

Shawver83
01-20-10, 03:52 AM
I stumbled onto this forum and am really interested in reading about your son's continued progress with neurofeedback. My five year old son was diagnosed with ADD in November after repeated problems in school. He tested to be very gifted, which is pretty common with ADD/ADHD kids from what I've heard. He simply refuses to do any work at all in school, and is impulsive and somewhat aggressive with the other kids. He goes to a private Montessori school, and they've basically given us about a month to get his behavior straightened out or withdraw him. My sister-in-law is a psychologist who is helping us out with him. He started doing neurofeedback sessions with an associate of hers in her office in December. He's had a little over 20 sessions so far--things got a little hectic and I lost exact count, but at least 22 or 24--and so far no results for us. She tells us it's too early, that it will take around 40 to 50 sessions to see improvements. We've amped up the sessions, taking him in twice a day, five days a week in a desperate attempt to get results before he gets kicked out of school. We're also trying to get an appointment with a psychologist to see about possibly getting him put on meds if these feedback treatments don't kick in soon. He's going to have to improve either with feedback or meds one, or he won't last the school year. At this point though, no improvements yet. In fact, he was sent home from school for misbehavior yesterday, first time in a month or so that's happened. I'm not sure how long I'm willing to keep plugging away at it until I give up, we'll see.

MGDAD
01-20-10, 01:26 PM
..... He's had a little over 20 sessions so far--things got a little hectic and I lost exact count, but at least 22 or 24--and so far no results for us. She tells us it's too early, that it will take around 40 to 50 sessions to see improvements. .....

Funny how the answer is always more sessions. At least they gave you a number. Not that I know whether this technique works or not, but I am a bit skeptical. I bet, if it works, it is more like an alternative to meds, in that the benefits are eliminated as soon as you stop the treatments. Good luck to you all though. I hope it does work for you.

BTW, only a Psychiatrist (MD) can prescribe medications. A Psychologist is a PHD.

Shawver83
01-20-10, 11:08 PM
I'm a bit skeptical, too, but we'll see. There are times we think we see improvements, then the next day is back to the usual. For instance today he had a great day, but who knows what tomorrow will bring. We don't normally have two good days in a row! We have an appt. with a psychiatrist (sorry, I accidentally put psychologist last time!) Friday to see if she recommends medication for him. We were told that any gains he made with neurofeedback would be permanent--in other words, the benefits would stick even after treatments stopped. That remains to be seen, I guess. Apparently some of the other parents have been complaining about our son, so that's why the school is giving us this ultimatum about getting the impulsive and aggressive behavior corrected right away. I really don't have enough faith in the neurofeedback helping quickly enough, if at all, so we'll see what other options we have. We'll still keep plugging away with the sessions though, and give it more than enough chance to work before I pass final judgement, though my patience is wearing thin!

MuscleMama
01-27-10, 09:08 AM
Update - session #12 yesterday
We're still not seeing dramatic results, but a subtle overall improvement. My in-laws say that he's been much better in general. Maybe I'm just too close to see it, like when your kids grow and everyone says, "Wow they've gotten so big!" but you don't see it until you look at old photos.

Interestingly his teacher told me Monday that she is seeing an improvement in his writing and his negativity about writing. That was great to hear. She also said he was a little more hyper last week, but was able to settle down, but she had to speak to him more than usual. That jives with the protocol they've been doing recently.

Just to brag a bit, he was one of the top 5 kids in his grade and made the 3rd grade spelling bee team. They had the spelling bee this past Friday night and he did great! They worked as a team and he was very calm and focused and behaved great. I was really proud of him :)

The update on my younger son is that he has a small syrinx around T8 (but no associated problems so he didn't think it was an issue) and he has a thickened, fatty filum terminale which is a streak of fatty tissue in the base of his spinal cord. It is often seen with a tethered cord, but his isn't tethered. The fatty filum can cause leg muscle weakness and sometimes pain. The neurologist wants us to see a neurosurgeon to see if surgery might be worthwhile. If not, they will probably monitor it with regular MRIs because it may or may not get worse with time.

So this explains some of his issues, but not all. From his teacher:

I have seen anxiety increase as things have become more difficult and we are moving at a much faster pace than we did at the beginning of the year. I also see increased anxiety when a lesson involves fine motor skills- such as writing, coloring, and cutting. Some days I worry about the amount of shaking his hands do when trying to complete certain tasks. I have been working with him on slowing down. He needs lots of reassurance when he feels things are getting hard.

He went to a friend's karate bday party this weekend and refused to participate. He was the only boy sitting off to the side and I was frustrated with him. As they went along they began to do more complicated things with punches, kicks, blocks, etc and I realized that he can't do those things. It made me really sad to see the gap between what most kids his age can do physically and what he can do. He still goes down stairs one step at a time. Also, it seems that I am constantly repeating myself to him and he cannot keep simple commands in his mind for more than a few seconds. Things like "get dressed", "sit down and eat", "finish picking that up" - he gets distracted and wanders away from the task over and over.

MGDAD
01-27-10, 01:27 PM
Thanks for the update, and it is great to hear your son is seeing improvements from the treatments.

As to your younger son. All signs of ADHD. Gross motor delays, fine motor delays, poor working memory, etc.

LilaADHD
01-27-10, 03:55 PM
Have you ever heard of LKS? That was one of DS's similarities. I don't want to get too far off subject. But if you haven't heard of it and you have a chance check that out (Landau Kleffner Syndrom). DS had some similarities there, at the time he had no speech and from the brainwave activity they could see that his speech center was virtually inactive (and consistent in some ways to other patients with it)...and that his overall brainwave pattern was immature (perhaps displaying the 30% rule???). We were counseled not to expect him to ever have speech.

He was treated as though he was LKS (with anticonvulsants) and the neuro wrote up a bunch of recommendations for therapy, (speech, communication specialist/augmentive devices, OT, play therapy, etc). Our hero is this guy (the one whose name sounds like a fruity frozen dessert :rolleyes:) But really the whole team is amazing.

Good Luck & looking forward to more updates!
KJ[/quote]

Hi KJ,
My middle son got the LKS varient diagnosis when he was about 4 yrs old by a doc in Chicago. We prayed the whole treatment including steroid's would be his miracle. But today he is still as autistic as the day is long...but that is another fourm..lol. It is interesting to read about others who have lived through the diagnosis hell like we have. Thanks for sharing.

MuscleMama
01-27-10, 04:38 PM
Hi KJ,
My middle son got the LKS varient diagnosis when he was about 4 yrs old by a doc in Chicago. We prayed the whole treatment including steroid's would be his miracle. But today he is still as autistic as the day is long...but that is another fourm..lol. It is interesting to read about others who have lived through the diagnosis hell like we have. Thanks for sharing.

Have you looked into neurofeedback for autism? From some reading I've done, it looks interesting. Here's something from the place we go:

http://www.neurodevelopmentcenter.com/index.php?id=63

Shawver83
01-27-10, 10:56 PM
Thanks for the update, I've been eager to hear how the neurofeedback has been going for you. On our end, we just completed 32 sessions as of today, and unfortunately no noticeable improvements yet. In fact, we're going to start him on Intuniv tomorrow as the school has run out of patience with his behavior and we really can't wait much longer for results from the neurofeedback. We do plan to continue it, and even continue it over the summer after school lets out. I'm just hoping he's able to swallow the pills, that alone is iffy. Right now our plan is to have him on the Intuniv until the end of school, then take him off of it while he continues the feedback sessions. Before school starts again in the fall I guess we'll have to determine whether or not he's able to do without the medication. Please keep us updated on your progress with the sessions, as well as what happens with your younger son. I'll let everyone know if we have any major breakthroughs with the feedback!

MuscleMama
01-27-10, 11:05 PM
Shawver, if you don't mind me asking, how experienced is the practitioner? I think they can really vary in terms of experience and expertise.

Shawver83
01-28-10, 08:26 AM
I'm not real sure, actually. My sister-in-law is very experienced, but one of her associates is doing my son's sessions. She has confidence in him
and says he's good, but I've wondered about it myself. Unfortunately my sis-in-law can't treat him because she says it's a conflict due to him
being related to her. In the area where I live there's no one else less than a 2 hr. drive who can do the sessions, so we're sort of stuck and hoping for the best.

MuscleMama
01-28-10, 08:29 AM
Did they do a qEEG first to make a brain map?

Here are some resources you can check to see if there is anyone near you:

www.eegspectrum.com/Providers/ (http://www.eegspectrum.com/Providers/)

www.eegdirectory.com (http://www.eegdirectory.com/)

http://www.isnr.org/cart/pract_find.cfm?Alpha=&Zip=&theSearch=Search

www.bcia.org (http://www.bcia.org/)

www.resourcenter.net/Scripts/4Disapi6.dll/4DCGI/resctr/search.html (http://www.resourcenter.net/Scripts/4Disapi6.dll/4DCGI/resctr/search.html)?

www.smartbraingames.com/providers.asp (http://www.smartbraingames.com/providers.asp)

LilaADHD
01-28-10, 11:20 AM
Have you looked into neurofeedback for autism? From some reading I've done, it looks interesting. Here's something from the place we go:

http://www.neurodevelopmentcenter.com/index.php?id=63


Thanks for asking,

Yes I looked into LENS neurofeedback and the technician said my son was too severe and she was afraid to do him. I had my oldest daughter with depression do a few sessions of LENS but she didn't like it so we quit. It was making her feel worse like something was wrong with her. (Having nothing to do with the treatment just her feelings) With LENS it is said to only be 20 sessions shorter than regular neurofeedback.

Lila

MuscleMama
01-28-10, 01:54 PM
Thanks for asking,

Yes I looked into LENS neurofeedback and the technician said my son was too severe and she was afraid to do him. I had my oldest daughter with depression do a few sessions of LENS but she didn't like it so we quit. It was making her feel worse like something was wrong with her. (Having nothing to do with the treatment just her feelings) With LENS it is said to only be 20 sessions shorter than regular neurofeedback.

Lila

:( I'm sorry.

I hadn't heard of the LENS, but googled it after reading your post. Very interesting, I'm going to ask about it this afternoon at our session.

Shawver83
01-28-10, 09:28 PM
Did they do a qEEG first to make a brain map?

Here are some resources you can check to see if there is anyone near you:

www.eegspectrum.com/Providers/ (http://www.eegspectrum.com/Providers/)

www.eegdirectory.com (http://www.eegdirectory.com/)

http://www.isnr.org/cart/pract_find.cfm?Alpha=&Zip=&theSearch=Search

www.bcia.org (http://www.bcia.org/)

www.resourcenter.net/Scripts/4Disapi6.dll/4DCGI/resctr/search.html (http://www.resourcenter.net/Scripts/4Disapi6.dll/4DCGI/resctr/search.html)?

www.smartbraingames.com/providers.asp (http://www.smartbraingames.com/providers.asp)


Thanks for the info; unfortunately, nothing else even remotely near us. Yes, they did do a qEEG and brain map first. It showed lots of activity around the front of the brain, confirming the ADD I guess. I'm starting to get discouraged about the feedback sessions, though we do plan to continue plugging away with them for a while yet before we give up. He's had 36 sessions so far with absolutely no effect. They did tell us it would take around 50, so we'll see. We tried to start the Intuniv this morning, he wouldn't swallow the pill. He had an absolutely horrible day at school, and even acted up for the first time at martial arts class, which he's never done before. We actually had to force the Intuniv pill down his throat tonight, it was a little traumatic at first but he got over it pretty quickly. We just want to get the medicine in him so he can get better. My ultimate plan is for the feedback to eventually kick in so that he can ditch the pills, but that remains to be seen! Do keep us posted on how things go for you, hopefully you'll have much quicker success!

MuscleMama
01-28-10, 09:36 PM
I hadn't heard of the LENS, but googled it after reading your post. Very interesting, I'm going to ask about it this afternoon at our session.

So I asked about it and they were not big fans of the LENS neurofeedback. They do offer it, but said they have seen very little results, far less than the 'regular' neurofeedback. They said most people they tried it with had no results, but the few that did were the more extreme, aggressive cases. She summed it up with, "Meh."

MuscleMama
02-19-10, 05:58 PM
Session #19 today. Still the same - a subtle overall improvement, but nothing significant or dramatic. He does have occasional times where his writing is much better, but they are few and far between (but better than nonexistant like before).

The doctor will have both the school and I fill out evaluations again and if there's no change he would like to continue for another 20 sessions at no charge. He said that there are still things he hasn't tried and he doesn't want to give up if we don't. My son says he doesn't want to keep going, but we will if we qualify for more sessions. We'll see...

Shawver83
02-19-10, 06:27 PM
I was wondering how you were doing with the neurofeedback, glad to hear an update. We're still plugging along here, as well. We've had about 46 sessions so far, I think. As far as I can tell, it's made no difference yet. At least not an appreciable difference. It's hard to tell now because we had to start him on Intuniv, which made a dramatic difference. So any gains he's made right now are probably due to the medication. Even on the medication, he's still having slight issues and we're still tweaking the dosage, so I assume that without it he really wouldn't be showing much improvement at all. And the kicker is, my sister-in-law tells me that being on the medication will make the neurofeedback take LONGER to work. She's told us that it could take a year or two for him to be 'cured' of the ADD and able to function in class. We plan on keeping it up over the summer and seeing what happens. Right now I'm not real optimistic, but won't give up hope yet. I've gotta say though, if we were having to pay anywhere near regular price for these sessions I sure wouldn't continue for that long.

MuscleMama
02-19-10, 06:53 PM
Did she actually use the word "cured"? That is kind of a red flag to me. Our Dr is very careful not to overstate the possible benefits, I don't think he'd ever say that. I'm glad you're not paying a lot for all those sessions.

Shawver83
02-20-10, 12:20 PM
I believe she did use the term 'cured.' She said that the abnormal brain waves shown on the qEEG that indicated ADHD would show up as normal after completed treatment. I'm not real optimistic about that, but we'll give it a chance. Right now I'm just hoping for any improvement at all, though there certainly hasn't been enough that we're able to stop the medication yet.

MuscleMama
03-11-10, 09:58 PM
Hi, all. So we finished up 20 sessions and saw no significant improvements :( The center had the teacher and I fill out evaluations again and gave him some type of computerized test of attention again. He qualified for an additional 20 free sessions and I'm going to take advantage of them. Hopefully they will finally hit on the right protocol that will help him. We will also meet with the director to go over the first 20 sessions. While I'm disappointed by the results so far, they have been professional and I still feel positive about the experience in general.

Hopefully I will have more, better news to report in the upcoming weeks.

Shawver83
03-12-10, 02:00 AM
Thanks for the update, hope it goes well for you. We're still plugging away at it, but after 50+ sessions I can't say we've seen measurable results. Of course, he's taking Intuniv now, so that makes it hard to tell, but even on the Intuniv he's having difficulties, so I'm pretty sure that without it he'd be even worse. Since it isn't costing us much, we'll keep plugging away with it for a while, but I really don't hold out much hope. If it does end up helping, it probably won't be enough for him to function without some type of medication.

MuscleMama
04-17-10, 05:18 PM
So we're several sessions into the second round of 20 free sessions. I asked them to try the LENS neurofeedback last week and 1) my son likes it more (he was starting to really hate going) and 2) I think I see a little bit of results (he is very sweet and relaxed immediately after). Just 2 LENS sessions so far, but maybe...

Shawver83
04-19-10, 08:41 AM
That's great, hope you get results! As for us, we're still plugging away. I've lost count of the number of sessions we've had, but I'm sure we're around at least 60 or so now. We're going to do another brain scan in the next month or so to see if any improvement has been made. He had a pretty good week in school this past week. With him being on medication, it's hard to tell whether it's improvement from that or from neurofeedback, but I'm willing to bet it's from the medication. We're going to keep at it for a while. Good luck and keep us posted as to any results you get!

elke61
04-25-10, 11:06 PM
Could you describe what a session is like? I have been interested in neurofeedback and I've read through this thread. You say you're son was getting bored.
-how long does a session last
-does your son feel drained or energized after
-do you have to talk him into going to the sessions

thx, Elke

MuscleMama
04-26-10, 11:23 AM
Could you describe what a session is like? I have been interested in neurofeedback and I've read through this thread. You say you're son was getting bored.
-how long does a session last
-does your son feel drained or energized after
-do you have to talk him into going to the sessions

thx, Elke

The regular sessions are around 45 minutes and the lens sessions are around 20-30 I think. He doesn't seem to be either drained or energized, sometimes he's grouchy and sometimes he's pretty mellow and nice.

He has been a trooper about going, but lately is getting negative about it. Considering he's been over 20 times and isn't feeling any results it's understandable. Since switching to the lens treatment he hasn't complained about going. I've told him how we're going to finish the second round of 20 sessions and then that will be it and he seems to understand.

MuscleMama
04-26-10, 11:30 AM
I just read the book "Stopping ADHD" by O'dell and it is an interesting premise. She says roughly 75% of kids with learning difficulties have retained the STNR reflex which makes their bodies more difficult to get comfortable. This leads to trouble sitting still comfortably, which leads to difficulty paying attention and staying in your seat.

I have been researching retained primitive reflexes because this is something my younger son seems to have a significant problem with (see his thread ;)). He didn't test positive for the STNR, but my older son does seem to have some of these things.

The book describes a crawling program that helps to integrate the reflex and many issues disappear. I'm not totally sure I buy it, but am going to look into something like this for him that we can work on over the summer (can't hurt, might help). Maybe the developmental optometrist I am going to start working with for my younger son can suggest some things for my older son, too. She also is an Interactive Metronome provider which is interesting. I would also like to work on writing with my older son this summer, maybe with the Handwriting Without Tears or some other program.

I told me boys the other day that this is going to be "the summer of therapy" :D

Elainehix
01-03-11, 09:54 PM
My child has dyspraxia (extreme clumsiness and motor coordination/planning difficulties) AND ADHD and a visit to an occupational therapist can really help. My son used to trip on air, seemed "careless" constantly falling out of his seat, etc. I took him to an OT and he did INTERACTIVE METRONOME, and his motor coordination DRASTICALLY improved. I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown trying to teach this child how to ride a bike when he was 6-7, it was as if his two legs were not on the same body. However, the summer after interactive metronome( age 7 1/2). It was like I was teaching a totally different child and he learned that very first day. Now, some may say that this was due to his normal dvelopment over the 6 mos since I had previously tried to teach him this skill, but I don't think it was. My husband and I both noticed that his gait changed (less loose like a noodle) and he stopped falling/tripping after this therapy. Maybe this doesn't affect your child, but perhaps this will help someone else.

Beyond coordination, IM also reportedly helps attention. If you google interactive metronome there are studies in peer reviewed journals that have shown IM therapy to be as effective as Ritalin. My son's attention did improve but not as markedly as his coordination after treatment.His hyperactivity also showed improvement. I am considering doing it again despite it's expense ($1,500 of whick my less than stellar insurance paid 60%) because the improvement was permanent unlike medications whose effects are transient at best, though, yes, we still use those too. I guess this has been the only thing which I could say permanently improved his coordination and attention, whic makes it a "must try" in my book. No negative side effects another big plus.
Good Luck!!
Elaine
Mother to ALexander the Great, age 9, ADHD
And Georgie, age 6, who is just a normal little stinker

LINKS TO RESEARCH (I bold faced the specific one re: ADHD treatment with IM):
McGrew, Kevin S, Taub, Gordon, Keith, Timithy Z. (2007). Improvements in interval time tracking and effects on reading achievement. University of Central Florida, Institute for Applied Psychometrics, University of Texas. Psychology in the Schools, 44(8), 849-863. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/Research/taub2007.pdf)


Jones, LorRainne. (2004). Improving motor planning and sequencing to improve outcomes in speech and language therapy. 83rd Annual American Speech and Hearing Association, New Orleans, LA. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/Research/SLP-Comprehensive%20Report.pdf)

Jacokes, Lee E. (2003). Pathways Center final statistical analysis. Unpublished white Paper. Pathway Learning Center, Chicago, IL, Interactive Metronome. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/Research/PathwaysFinalReport.pdf)

Diamond, Susan J. (2003). Processing speed and motor planning: the scientific background to the skills trained by Interactive Metronome technology. Unpublished white paper. Interactive Metronome. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/Research/Diamond%20-Whitepaper.pdf)

Cason, Cindy. (2003). Learning problems and the left behind. White paper presented at the National Association of Elementary School Principals, Anaheim, CA. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/Research/Cason%20Report%203-04.pdf)

Jacokes, Lee E. (2003). Interactive metronome performance training of St. Thomas Aquinas high school. Unpublished white paper. Interactive Metronome. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/Research/St.Thomas%20Report.pdf)

Gorman, Patrick. (2003). Interactive Metronome- Underlying neurocognitive correlates of effectiveness. Unpublished white paper. Interactive Metronome. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/Research/Dr.Gormman%20NEUROCOGNITVE%20CORRELATES%20OF%20EFF ECTIVENESS%2002.pdf)

Libkuman, Terry M, Otani, Hajime. (2002). Training in timing improves accuracy in golf. Journal of General Psychology, 129(1), 77-96. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/Research/Journal%20of%20Psychology.pdf)
Kuhlman, Kristyn, Schweinhart, Lawrence J. (2002). Timing in child development. High/Scope Educational Research Foundation, Ypsilanti, MI: High/Scope Press. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/Research/High%20Scope%20Research.pdf)

Greenspan, Stanley I, Shaffer, Robert J, Tuchman, Robert F, Stemmer, Paul J, Jacokes, Lee E. (2001). Effect of Interactive Metronome rhythmicity training on children with ADHD. American Journal of Occupational Therapy, 55(2), 155-162. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/Research/Efffect%20of%20IM%20Training-ADHD.pdf)

Burpee, Jeanetta, DeJean Valerie, Frick, Sheila, Kawar, Mary, Koomar, Mary, Fischer, Deborah Murphy. (2001). Theoretical and clinical perspectives on the Interactive Metronome (IM): A view from a clinical occupational therapy practice. American Journal of Occupational Therapy, 55(2), 163-166. (http://www.addforums.com/forums/Research/Theoretical%20Perspective-%20OT.pdf)


http://www.addforums.com/forums/images/misc/progress.gif

Dizfriz
01-04-11, 06:13 PM
The current status on IMT seems to be:
http://www.help4adhd.org/en/treatment/complementary/WWK6

"Interactive Metronome Training

Interactive Metronome Training is a relatively new intervention for individuals with AD/HD. The Interactive Metronome (IM) is a computerized version of a simple metronome -- i.e. what musicians use to "keep the beat" -- and produces a rhythmic beat that individuals attempt to match with hand or foot tapping. Auditory feedback is provided, which indicates how well the individual is matching the beat. It is suggested that improvement in matching the beat over repeated sessions reflects gains in motor planning and timing skills.

The rationale behind IM training is that motor planning and timing deficits are common in children with AD/HD and are related to problems with behavioral inhibition that some experts believe are critical to understanding the disorder. In addition, these deficits are alleviated by stimulant medication treatment. Thus, it is plausible that interventions to improve motor timing and planning abilities directly, such as IM training, could also be helpful to children with AD/HD. There is no evidence that motor in-coordination is related to behavioral inhibition.

To date, there has been a single study of IM training for boys with AD/HD.15 This was a well-conducted study with appropriate control groups, and the results indicated that boys who received IM training showed improvements in a wide range of areas. Thus, this intervention appears to be promising.

Additional research using IM training in individuals with AD/HD is necessary, however, before the value of this approach can be known with greater certainty."

For what it is worth.

Dizfriz

MuscleMama
01-04-11, 07:46 PM
Dizfriz, do they say anything about long-term, lasting benefits? How recent is that quote above?

FrazzleDazzle
01-04-11, 09:15 PM
MuscleMama, did you know that my son and I completed the Bender/O'Dell protocol? I journaled about it here (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29180&highlight=stnr). Through the online community at the time, I received a very informative booklet that covers all of the retained reflexes and included simpler/shorter/supposedly just as effective protocols to correct the retained reflexes. I also did a home-based version of the IM that I posted with others on the forum here (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60674&highlight=metronome), with some interesting benefits. Hope that helps some.

Dizfriz
01-04-11, 09:58 PM
Dizfriz, do they say anything about long-term, lasting benefits? How recent is that quote above?
I pulled it off the site today. The stuff on the resource center is usually pretty much up to date but what I quoted is all they showed. The search engine is down so it might be worthwhile checking back later.

Dizfriz

Shawver83
01-07-11, 09:58 PM
Well, I figure I might as well weigh in with the end results of our neurofeedback experience. My son just finished a year of sessions, five days a week. I long ago lost count of how many sessions he had. He even went through a period of a couple months where he had them twice a day. The final verdict? No discernible difference. They did another brain map on him and said that the results showed that his brainwaves were now normal and that he should be able to manage without medication. Unfortunately, that's not the case. He apparently did well in sessions and his brain map improved, but he's not carrying those results over to school performance. He now takes Intuniv and Focalin XR, with fairly decent results. Of course, we were told that being on the medication would 'slow down' the neurofeedback results and make it take longer. The reason we stopped the sessions is because they moved their office to a town a bit further away and it was just too much of a drive. We did buy a second hand Play Attention neurofeedback system to have him do at home every now and then. I think it's bunk, but my husband figures it can't hurt. I wish we'd been able to avoid the medication route, but no such luck. It was also mentioned to us in the beginning that ADHD meds would lower his IQ, which I flatly don't believe, but it just added to the anxiety of putting him on them.

MuscleMama
01-08-11, 03:29 PM
ElaineHix, thanks so much for your post. My younger son is diagnosed with dyspraxia. I suspect he also has ADHD, but it's hard to diagnose with all his other issues. My older son has ADHD. They both seem to have most difficulty with impulsivity.

As you can see in my signature, after lots of research into different things and 6 months of ineffective neurofeedback, we have begun neurological reorganization therapy. I am hopeful that this will make a big difference for both boys.

The IM information is very interesting and definitely something I will look into. Thanks for all the links!


Shawver, I am so sorry you worked so hard and had no results! How frustrating for you. :(