View Full Version : Cacophony of noise


Logic
11-09-09, 07:32 PM
This happened to me this evening:

I was at the sports centre for my martial arts class, the layout in the sports hall is like this (the hall is split into eight sections):

Badminton____Badminton____Dance Troup____Dance Troup



Badminton____Martial Arts____Body Pump____Badminton



As you can see from my crude representation, the Body Pump class was directly in front of our class.
The Body Pump class had two students in it, but the instructor insisted on turning his boom box up so loud that I swear I could feel my internal organs vibrating with his dance music. He was also wearing a headset microphone which amplified his voice through his sound system.
His music interfered with the Dance Troup, who were rehersing to music also, they in turn, had to turn up their music to allow for his overly loud music.

Imagine if you will, hearing some super-fast dance music (the kind that has chipmunks singing on it) with a huge bassline, and then hearing Michael Jackson's 'Thriller' being played equally loud over the top of it, then add to this mix the people playing badminton, who by now are shouting in order to communicate with one another, the whiny voice of the body pump instructor cracking over the music intermittently, and then try to pay attention to my own instructor at the same time... It was like being punched in the face with noise. I couldn't think straight, see properly, hear anything (besides the cacophony of noise), and all I wanted to do was curl up in a ball with my fingers in my ears, or just smash the Body Pump guy to bits for being so inconsiderate and having no respect for the opther people using the hall!

I ended up standing motionless, my eyes shut, and switching between having my fingers jammed in my ears to clenching my fists.
My instructor noticed I had shut down, and pulled me aside, using me as a subject to demonstrate submissions on (can't explode when I'm being pinned down right? :o).

He told me afterwards when we were driving home (we car share) that he pulled me aside and suddenly switched from his lesson plan to practicing submissions because he thought I was going to explode as I had 'that look' on my face and didn't want to see me lose it.

Anybody else get overwhelmed like this by sounds?

Logic

Driver
11-09-09, 07:46 PM
Yup. Restaurants, clubs, bars, pubs, etc, are just too loud for me and overwhelm me. I can only last a short amount of time as it drains my energy quicker than water through a colander.

ginniebean
11-09-09, 09:02 PM
Yup. Restaurants, clubs, bars, pubs, etc, are just too loud for me and overwhelm me. I can only last a short amount of time as it drains my energy quicker than water through a colander.


I have the identical experience, but I'd also include large shopping malls or grocery stores at peak hours. I think the term for this is 'flooding'. It can happen in a number of different situations but essentially is pretty paralyzing, difficult to recoup the lost energy, and generally I'm wrecked for several hours after.

novagal
11-10-09, 10:32 AM
Are you kidding me? Reading about this made my eyes tear up, literally. That would be enough to make me curl up on the floor in a fetal position. I love loud music - my music on my headphones, in my car, or at a concert, but only one thing at a time. Anything more is total overload.

I'd have had to go running out of the class.

CircularingCats
11-10-09, 10:42 AM
All these things are big triggers for me. However, they're not audio noise but rather "visual noise" -- as I am deaf.

But other than the audio aspect, these settings would drive me batty.



Cats:)

~Ødd~Scr~θθball
11-10-09, 10:50 PM
Hi Logic! :D You have perfectly described what happens with those of us who suffer from Sensory Integration Disorder.Just reading about it made me hyper~alert, nervous, dizzy and tired~Same thing that used to happen to me when I was in School ~Circa 1960's and 70's~:eek::rolleyes::p;) but I must say You showed amazing courage and strength in the face of such sensory overload. I would have had to exit the premises immediately! :eek: Thank Goodness your instructor was sensitive enough to be aware of what was happening with you and stepped in to help you re~focus. Kudos to you both! :D
As for That insensitive Body Pump Oaf of an instructor could the groups affected report him to the Sport Center Higher~ups? Proof being Audio and Video if necessary. It seems so unfair for one instructor to ruin things for others and my guess he'll do it again. Shudder Shudder!!!! but you and your class could be armed and ready for a well executed ambush! :D
Best of Luck to you. :D:D:D

:):cool::D:cool:;):rolleyes::):cool::D

Driver
11-10-09, 11:30 PM
Speak of the devil. Thanks to lack of sleep I'm struggle to perform in an open plan office from all the noise.

CptNemo
11-10-09, 11:56 PM
Yes to all of the above,but I have a twist:

Bass.
Just sends me up the walls.
Even when it doesn't seem that loud,but I can still feel the vibrations.

Driver
11-11-09, 12:24 AM
Yes to all of the above,but I have a twist:

Bass.
Just sends me up the walls.
Even when it doesn't seem that loud,but I can still feel the vibrations.

If I'm in a happy/hyper/fun mood, then I love bass...but when I'm tapped out, I loath it.

Logic
11-11-09, 12:00 PM
~Ødd~Scr~θθball: The only reason I think I didn't do something stupid, like go over and pull the plug on the boom box - which I've done in the past and gotten myself a 6 week ban from training for 'aggressive conduct', was down to my own instructor noticing I was on the verge of total shutdown.
Guess I should thank him for that! I hate desperately wanting to train, but not being allowed to even go and watch.

Driver: In regard to the mood thing affecting love/hate of bass, I'm the same.
If I'm in a happy/hyper/fun mood there's nothing I like more than to have some heavy bass line to work out to, but If the mood is sour or I just want peace and quiet, I'd rather work out in silence and count my reps than hear anything that even threatens to be 'bassy'.

Adversely, I work in a loud club environment and get exposed to loud, bass filled music quite often, but with the ear-plugs and radio chatter it doesn't seem to bother me. I think I'm always distracted though with other things at work though so it doesn't premeate my consciousness enough to cause annoyance.

I think it's 'layers' of noise that bother me, like my description above that seem to have the worst effect on me.

Logic

Kunga Dorji
11-12-09, 02:25 AM
This has been a big problem for me over the years. Now that I am improving I have only just been able to see it for what it is.

I find especially when I am tired that sensory overload really gets to me. Especially un co-ordinated or aggressive noise.

I have finally grasped that this overload is what has caused me to lose it and speak impulsively on so many occasions.

Thankfully my wife grasps this too- and we have agood strategy to allow me to mentall debrief and settle when I come home too tired to function well. I usea relaxation exercise when I get overwhelmed.

I find that music can reall cut through the overload- but I need to choose something thatt will entrain my agitated state and take it somewhere more useful.
An example of this would be exercise. In some circumstances I find the really tight rock of the old (Bon Scott) AC/DC pulls everything together and turns it into a positive drive.

Equally another example would be some of Neil Youngs heavier music- where his combination of a really frenzied solo that pulls into a fantastically poositive message ( Love and Only Love is a good example )- will pull me into a good state.
I am wondering if I might usefully explore some baroque music, Gregorian Chant or Tibetan chanting. I think the integrative possibilities of music need to be taken more seriously. However- using something that I find personally meaningful is vital. My choices apply to me and my own internal understanding and should not be imposed on anyone else.

Also - my IPod is a great defence against this sort of bombardment in shopping centres. One does not have to be accessable all the time.

Kunga Dorji
11-12-09, 02:29 AM
Another comment here is that in previous centuries many people with high levels of sensitivity would have been drawn to a monastic tradition of one kind or another, and their sensitivity would have been celebrated and respected. This is not to say that I would want to live as a monk- but I do think that our "one sizs fits all' democratic obsessions serve us poorly.

Brookeslost
11-20-09, 12:29 PM
Many days I have sensory overload with sound(today for instance). My kids' toys that are WAY too loud make me wanna scream when they play with them for a long period and push the same button over and over. Repetition of most kinds for a long time make me wanna scream! But its usually the loudness of them as well as the repetition. But I can listen to music over and over very loud and have no problem either.

Logic
11-20-09, 06:08 PM
Confirmation that I'm less than useless in environments with noise/visual interference:

I spent some time yesterday giving a statement to the Police as my bank card has been 'cloned' (not going to get into that story... it's waaaay too long and far too complicated to even begin to think about it just now) and because it's a small villiage station - they don't even have cells there, an officer came through to the waiting room with a clipboard and started taking details from me there.
The phone kept ringing, there were two young women waiting to be seen also and were having a loud discussion about the car parking at the local shop, somebody's mobile phone kept ringing and the door kept clattering open as one of the women kept going outside to mess with her phone/smoke. The constables radio was chattering away, and he didn't make any effort to turn it down.

I couldn't concentrate, and the constable noticed this after I failed to confirm my own name for the second time and had begun squirming in my seat as I resisted the temptation to stand up and walk out.
He stood up and told me to follow him, I went after him and was directed into an interview room.
Generally, interview rooms are pretty quiet, no windows, one door.
This one was the same, only the place was decorated with about twenty colourful posters declaring the dangers of drugs and drink.
The constable still hadn't turned down his radio and it crackled and screeched, beeping and clicking loudly.
I asked him to turn it down, but he said he needed to hear it.
I thought maybe he was deaf as it was so loud.

He read back the details he already had, I was absorbed in reading the posters and idiotically said "what?" when I realised there was a long pause and he had probably asked me a question.
This process went on for about an hour, the same 'tuning out' of the radio noise and distractions around me resulting in the officer looking a little bit peeved with me, eventually asking me "What's your problem?" at the same time he told me to move my chair back as I was making the table wobble with my leg-shaking :o

I begun scuffing my feet on the floor, concentrating on the noise that made rather than the whiny radio chatter, when a carpet-tile came loose resulting in my right leg moving further forward than I intended and kicking him in the shin beneath the table.
It took him about three seconds to stand up and shout at me, I stood up also and decided it was definitely time to leave.
His raised voice had attracted another officer and between them I was made to stand facing the wall, hands clasped behind my back, my toes, knees and nose touching it for about ten minutes (act like a kid - get treated like one I was told), all the while being lectured, after which I was taken by the elbow and led back through the corridors, back through the waiting room (which was now empty thankfully) and outside into the car park.
I was shoved away and told to "get lost".

In all fairness, I'd have probably done that to me too if it was the other way around; and I had no idea why I'd just been kicked in the leg and the only excuse I was hearing was "the carpet tile came loose..."

*ugh...*

Logic

Driver
11-20-09, 11:18 PM
Why didn't you simply say, "I'm sorry, can we go somewhere more quiet? The noises are distracting me and I'm struggling to concentrate."

Logic
11-21-09, 10:11 AM
I don't know to be honest. I guess I'm so used to 'putting up and shutting up' than dealing with it in a reasonable way.
I think that last time I asked to go somewhere a bit more muted, I remember the odd looks I got and a comment along the lines of; 'just ignore it'.
I assume that if others don't appreciate the stress of the environment they aren't going to understand what it's doing to me, and offer me a solution that works for them (like ignoring it) which is never going to work for me.

A few places are okay, like the hospital, when I end up there I always ask to sit somewhere other than the large, noisy waiting room. They oblige by getting me a seat in the corridor or putting me through in an empty triage room. I sort of expect hospitals to be a bit more accommodating though, I don't expect the same from 'average joe' if that makes an sense at all.

Logic

Driver
11-21-09, 10:18 AM
Lose the machismo and start owning your weaknesses.

kristabell318
11-21-09, 11:03 AM
I have these kind of episodes alot, I also have 3 very loud kids, but its also at friends parties or just in the car if the traffic is very loud, my husband doesn't get it, he is ADD as well on Adderall like me and doesn't have the same things happen, he will put in very loud harsh music and I almost feel like I am gonna have a panic attack trying to cope with it...I thought it was the meds at first but then realized they have just kinda made it become more often I shut down from loud sounds...My son got worried about me a week or so ago, when his 2 year old sister was throwing a fit and I just finaly walked away and sat on the kitchen floor with my hands over my ears humming gently, I had to explain that mommy just couldn't take sissys screaming at the momnet so I went to calm down...Thats really scary when you have to explain to a 9 year old with a look of panic on his face why mommy shut down for a few.....Makes me feel like I am crazy..

kristabell318
11-21-09, 11:13 AM
Many days I have sensory overload with sound(today for instance). My kids' toys that are WAY too loud make me wanna scream when they play with them for a long period and push the same button over and over. Repetition of most kinds for a long time make me wanna scream! But its usually the loudness of them as well as the repetition. But I can listen to music over and over very loud and have no problem either.

That is excatly the way I get with the kids noise...Wow!!!!I have wanted to on some occasions(never done it) Just throw the toy out the window...
My Father was the same way I think thats where I get it from he would take the batterys out of everything when I wasn't looking and tell me it most be broken..

To the Comments about Bass, I am the same way, Sometimes Bass drives me up walls, but other times I enjoy it....I always found it strange...and its kinda hard to know which day or time it will be okay, its makes my Husband so mad..He doesn't have the issue so he doesn't understand, he just thinks I am being difficult..or a pain on purpose.

CptNemo
11-21-09, 12:08 PM
I don't know to be honest. I guess I'm so used to 'putting up and shutting up' than dealing with it in a reasonable way.
Logic

Oh man!

With friends,I just say 'man that noise is killing me!'.
I try to smile,to show that I'm not mad,but I think I would prefer getting poked repeatedly with a pin. It really is painful.

I compare it with letting them know they are stepping on my foot.

I wouldn't expect much courtesy if I was being tossed in jail,but you were there to have them do their job.

"I've got this weird thing where sometimes I just can't alot of noise" or something!

I hope you follow through with what you need to do.

Brookeslost
11-21-09, 12:39 PM
I have these kind of episodes alot, I also have 3 very loud kids, but its also at friends parties or just in the car if the traffic is very loud, my husband doesn't get it, he is ADD as well on Adderall like me and doesn't have the same things happen, he will put in very loud harsh music and I almost feel like I am gonna have a panic attack trying to cope with it...I thought it was the meds at first but then realized they have just kinda made it become more often I shut down from loud sounds...My son got worried about me a week or so ago, when his 2 year old sister was throwing a fit and I just finaly walked away and sat on the kitchen floor with my hands over my ears humming gently, I had to explain that mommy just couldn't take sissys screaming at the momnet so I went to calm down...Thats really scary when you have to explain to a 9 year old with a look of panic on his face why mommy shut down for a few.....Makes me feel like I am crazy..



OH my this sound like MY life too! Nice to know Im not the only one! :) I have a 7 week old baby and her crying is VERY loud and kinda painful sounding at times when she cant sleep and I can not calm her......I have to just let her cry for a while and my 3 yr old will say.....shes crying momma!! Im like yes I know can I have a min or two please lol If my husband is home he tends to add to the chaos a lot with WAY LOUD playing with them and running up and down the halls shrieking making the dogs bark like mad cause he likes it......I HAVE to CHECK OUT!! Or just leave the room totally......or Ill scream at him to knock it the EFF off! He knows I cant take it, but forgets or puts his playing first I dunno lol He doesnt get it cause he SOOO doesnt have it!

CptNemo
11-21-09, 12:57 PM
Those cheap little disposable ear plugs can be a life-saver,sometimes.
Note that you will still be able hear things...kids talking,etc.
They just turn the volume down a little,and I've found them to 'lower the treble' on noises,too. (Like little munchkins shrieking.):)

ginniebean
11-21-09, 01:02 PM
Strangely enough, kid noises never bothered me, I could have 6 boys in the house making a horrible racket and it would definitely bother other people but I'd just tune it out. Now if they wanted my attention constantly, that would not be good.

Brookeslost
11-21-09, 01:17 PM
Those cheap little disposable ear plugs can be a life-saver,sometimes.
Note that you will still be able hear things...kids talking,etc.
They just turn the volume down a little,and I've found them to 'lower the treble' on noises,too. (Like little munchkins shrieking.):)


I had my husband bring me home some from work once and they were pink! I lost them! I was always forgetting about them! haha

Brookeslost
11-21-09, 01:18 PM
Strangely enough, kid noises never bothered me, I could have 6 boys in the house making a horrible racket and it would definitely bother other people but I'd just tune it out. Now if they wanted my attention constantly, that would not be good.



My 3 yr old son DOES badly....and especially since having the baby hes stepped it up quite a bit. As soon as I am feeding her he NEEDS this or that and will say it over and over and over again! He frustrates me with the saying things over and over! But since being on the meds I can ignore it a bit more and tell him I will NOT answer him acting like that....he says it back to back without even giving any time for anyone to respond.....grrrr stop it kid! lol

kristabell318
11-21-09, 03:07 PM
My 3 yr old son DOES badly....and especially since having the baby hes stepped it up quite a bit. As soon as I am feeding her he NEEDS this or that and will say it over and over and over again! He frustrates me with the saying things over and over! But since being on the meds I can ignore it a bit more and tell him I will NOT answer him acting like that....he says it back to back without even giving any time for anyone to respond.....grrrr stop it kid! lol

That sounds like my 5 year old little girl, she's very jealous of her baby sissy, so she will jump up and down on the spot asking or saying something over and over and over and over....drives me crazy.....Sometimes she even sings loudly and high pitched to herself but right next to me, Bless her heart I love her so much but the child can't sing, its more than painful...I wish she would find a more positive way to ask for attention because I am not gonna give into that kind of tactic to get it, then she will thank thats proper..And I have tried to show her other ways...But she's 5 so she goes back to the annoy you till you look, yell, get on to her or something, I guess even bad attention is attention for them..I really wish she could get the fact that her sissy needs more attention than her just because she is trying to break her neck every few seconds..I am very sure my daughter is ADHD...she has all the signs, she's just so young, and its not effecting her in school, I am at a wait and see stage..

My 2 year old is just in that phaze, she's testing me over and over again every minute of everyday...she climbs everything, gates can't hold her, and she screams in my face when shes put down and told "no don't climb, you will hurt Bella" then after a few times of taking her down repeatedly is when we get the tantrum, where she is laying on the floor screaming as loud as she can thrashing about....and I can't take it...My Husband will just laugh and say thats a good one, pitch it better, it makes her madder..But thats how his mom dealt with him as a child, so theres no talking to him about it..
We have a dog too...and I am so wishing I didn't get her, I love her, but my goodness how much can I take her high pitch bark sends me through the roof....So I have a 5 year old girl, 2 year girl running around the house sceaming and a dog barking because they have her excited....My son trying to tell me about a movie idea or video game idea he has or turning the tv up to 60 so he can here something he's watching ...and I just want to scream SHUT UP!!!!!!....But I can't so I lock the door somewere in side and tune it out, every now an then I remove myself....But like sitting in the kitchen floor, my son saw me, and he is way to sensative anyway..I normally hide in the bathroom, but that doesn't work because with in a Minute or two, My son or Daughter is beating like a wild child on the door, Mama Bellas Doin______....its crazy...


Will most def try some ear plugs, may be the only way to save my mind over the next couple of years, or maybe head phones, so I can listen to some tranquil music...LoL...Gotta try something...

Have thought of going ot work just to remove myself from the enviroment, but I can't bring myself to it, My 2 year old is my last kid...I want to be there for her, not shove her in daycare because mommy can't take the noise...

Brookeslost
11-21-09, 06:10 PM
My 2 year old is just in that phaze, she's testing me over and over again every minute of everyday...she climbs everything, gates can't hold her, and she screams in my face when shes put down and told "no don't climb, you will hurt Bella" then after a few times of taking her down repeatedly is when we get the tantrum, where she is laying on the floor screaming as loud as she can thrashing about....and I can't take it...My Husband will just laugh and say thats a good one, pitch it better, it makes her madder..But thats how his mom dealt with him as a child, so theres no talking to him about it..
We have a dog too...and I am so wishing I didn't get her, I love her, but my goodness how much can I take her high pitch bark sends me through the roof....So I have a 5 year old girl, 2 year girl running around the house sceaming and a dog barking because they have her excited....My son trying to tell me about a movie idea or video game idea he has or turning the tv up to 60 so he can here something he's watching ...and I just want to scream SHUT UP!!!!!!....But I can't so I lock the door somewere in side and tune it out, every now an then I remove myself....But like sitting in the kitchen floor, my son saw me, and he is way to sensative anyway..I normally hide in the bathroom, but that doesn't work because with in a Minute or two, My son or Daughter is beating like a wild child on the door, Mama Bellas Doin______....its crazy...


Will most def try some ear plugs, may be the only way to save my mind over the next couple of years, or maybe head phones, so I can listen to some tranquil music...LoL...Gotta try something...

Have thought of going ot work just to remove myself from the enviroment, but I can't bring myself to it, My 2 year old is my last kid...I want to be there for her, not shove her in daycare because mommy can't take the noise...


OMG our lives are so much the same!! Even my newborns name is Bella lol When she is 2 my son will be 5......and my 11 yr old is a lot of help sometimes but my son loves to annoy her as well with constant asking of ?s and what not, asking her to play, opening her door just to hear her yell at him......and 2 dogs here and as much as I love them as well.......One is a big fat one always in the way or begging for food and the other one is small with a yappy loud bark and they bark at everything!!! ITS FANTASTIC! and I totally know what ya mean about going in the bathroom or your room for peace and quiet. Many ppl would say thats kids come on....buts its the way I hear all of it and process the rest of the world and life....they just dont get it!

CptNemo
11-21-09, 06:38 PM
My 3 yr old son DOES badly....and especially since having the baby hes stepped it up quite a bit. As soon as I am feeding her he NEEDS this or that and will say it over and over and over again!

I know I'm steering this thread in the wrong direction,but I couldn't resist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNkp4QF3we8

Brookeslost
11-21-09, 09:15 PM
LMAO! Ok that drove me nuts and cracked me up all at the same time.....thanks :) Yep my son is a TON like that!

Logic
11-21-09, 11:12 PM
Lose the machismo and start owning your weaknesses.

yes sir. duly noted. :cool:

Logic

Kunga Dorji
11-22-09, 07:17 AM
Lose the machismo and start owning your weaknesses.

That would make me a rich man!

stef
11-22-09, 08:31 AM
AAAh we were in a very noisy restaurant last night! You had to raise your voice to be heard. 6 people; 2 different conversations:
on my right my friend and her neighbor were having a very nice discussion about i don't know what; she would ask a question and he would reply in great detail. The neighbor, is the nicest man and really knowledgable but I usually realise, I 'm not following what he's saying anymore! oops .On the other side, heated debate between my husband and our friend about "consciencious objectors" during wartime. I had to decline, I was told my opinion was "naive". but I had no better argument (this friend, loves to debate and usually any conversation turns into a heated debate at some point!). Aaah I couldn't follow either conversation with the constant background noise!

Pfoo! plus the wine - and my feet were roasting, i was wearing slim jeans with boots - well I was just so happy when they finally brought the check!

PickMeUpRoadie
11-22-09, 11:54 AM
Thankfully it takes alot to do this to me. However, I am more susceptable than neurotypical folks.

I am a musician and sound engineer for live and recorded performances. And thankfully, I can listen to the loudest brass or marching band for an infinte amount of time. But give me something like a parade with all the fire whistles and I will almost start rolling on the floor. There is something about the dissonance. And the huge amount of undertones (a phenomena that rarely occurs in music) in the fire truck sounds make me want to shut down. This "undertone" happens with multiple children's voices as well.

seamstress
12-14-09, 12:04 AM
Anybody else get overwhelmed like this by sounds?


Yes. But, it's kind of mind numbing sometimes. After listening to loud music for extended periods of time, other little noises don't seem to bother me. It's likey my brain tuned them out, because it got habituated to noise. And, I felt tired, but this soothing (kind of unexpected) sense of calm washed over me. I felt drowzy and my eyes grew heavy and I was able to feel like going to sleep. My head was kind of blank too.

This wasn't good for the ear drums though! It migh have been that my brain threshold for pain was surpassed or something.

Aside: I don't know how the quote at the top came to be so coloured. Lol but too apathetic to change it right now.

Kunga Dorji
12-14-09, 03:57 PM
Anybody else get overwhelmed like this by sounds?
Yes. But, it's kind of mind numbing sometimes. After listening to loud music for extended periods of time, other little noises don't seem to bother me. It's likey my brain tuned them out, because it got habituated to noise. And, I felt tired, but this soothing (kind of unexpected) sense of calm washed over me. I felt drowzy and my eyes grew heavy and I was able to feel like going to sleep. My head was kind of blank too.

This wasn't good for the ear drums though! It migh have been that my brain threshold for pain was surpassed or something.

Aside: I don't know how the quote at the top came to be so coloured. Lol but too apathetic to change it right now.

I find disorganised discordant sounds the problem, esp high pitch. Good rock, well played- no problem.

Kunga Dorji
12-19-09, 08:36 PM
I've been thinking about this thread a great deal lately. I find shopping centres an assault on my senses- I am much more vulnerable to them than I was.

Conversely, the comfort and ease I feel in a natural environment is getting stronger every day.

I am reminded that our hunter gatherer and agricultural pasts would have us most comfortable in these environments- this is where we grew to species hood.
I find it instructive that many of may ADD friends and patients feel the same comfort and pleasure in the natural environment. I am amazzed by the people who do not value it, but just see the environment as a thing to be exploited. In a way I think love of nature would be a good way to sort the wheat from the chaff when looking for kindred spirits.