View Full Version : Is fibromyalgia a psychosomatic disorder?


Trooper Keith
12-05-09, 01:58 AM
I believe there is compelling evidence that fibromyalgia may be a psychosomatic disorder. Currently there is no scientific consensus as to a cause. It remains a medically unexplained syndrome that despite great efforts continues to elude us with regards to etiology.

The first-line treatments for fibromyalgia are psychiatric medications - tricyclic antidepressants and anticonvulsants. There are also two other psychiatric medications, Cymbalta, an SNRI, and Lyrica, an anticonvulsant. Neurontin (gabapentin) is a very common treatment, as is amitryptiline. All of these medications are neurologically active with no known effect in the rest of the body.

Many doctors are skeptical of the disorder entirely: because there is no known cause, it is difficult to diagnose the disorder. Diagnosis is done entirely on case history and current symptoms - symptoms which have no clear cause. In fact, one of the diagnostic criteria for fibromyalgia is that we don't know what is causing the pain. This in and of itself makes evidence-based practitioners skeptical of the validity of the diagnosis.

No genetic information can be obtained on the syndrome because we know of no physical causes, so we can't do trait analysis. For this reason it's virtually impossible to link the disorder to other disorders, as is being discussed in another thread.

There is no doubt that there exists an empirically validated syndrome referred to as fibromyalgia - I'm not questioning that. There is, however, some evidence that this disease is psychiatric in origin.

sarey
12-05-09, 02:15 AM
One word.
No.

I have M.E & like FM, there is no "specific" known cause, just speculations & ideas on what could be the cause, however, it is VERY real, & is NOT psychosomatic, as is FM, I find it extremely insulting and upsetting that people believe otherwise. There is evidence that both M.E & FM are medical illnesses, in fact, M.E can be life threatening. FM is very real & not psychosomatic.

If it is a condition without a cause, then it is not psychosomatic, as psychosomatic is a cause.

Trooper Keith
12-05-09, 02:16 AM
My, what a well reasoned and thought out argument you have made there.

You will surely convince everyone.

sarey
12-05-09, 02:19 AM
Edited, happy now?

Trooper Keith
12-05-09, 02:22 AM
Perhaps you should learn to read more carefully.

There is no doubt that there exists an empirically validated syndrome referred to as fibromyalgia - I'm not questioning that.

I think maybe you are confused as to what psychosomatic means?

Also, it's not a matter of there being no "specific" known cause, it's a matter of there being "absolutely no known cause at all period despite years of research." There are a whole mess of conflicting hypotheses, none of which have any real empirical support.




Edit: for the record, CFS actually even responds to cognitive behavioral therapy. Regarding it being life threatening, the mortality rate of CFS is not higher than the general population, and the deaths associated with it are typically suicides. It, too, is likely psychosomatic.

sarey
12-05-09, 02:23 AM
Well, I've said my part, I don't think it is psychosomatic, & people who have this dreadful, disabling medical illness will more than likely be very upset with people who believe it is, I know I was.

Trooper Keith
12-05-09, 02:27 AM
You do not understand what "psychosomatic" means. Though to be fair, I'm giving you a lot of credit by asking if it's psychosomatic, because it may well be just a somatoform disorder. I'm conceding that real-life stressors might exacerbate real symptoms, instead of it being entirely psychological in nature, which it may well be.

sarey
12-05-09, 02:28 AM
You don't seem to be understanding my answer. I know what it means thank you very much, I've been told myself before my diagnosis, and continue to be told, that it is psychosomatic & it is in my head. It is not a psychiatric disorder, it is a medical disorder.

Trooper Keith
12-05-09, 02:31 AM
"Psychosomatic" does not mean it is all in your head. Again, you do not understand what psychosomatic means.

But it's awfully ballsy to say it's a medical disorder and not psychiatric, when there is no known medical cause, and it only seems to respond to psychiatric treatment. Especially CFS, seeing as it actually responds well to cognitive behavioral therapy without any kind of medical intervention at all.

sarey
12-05-09, 02:34 AM
CBT works on the stress management and emotions, as stress makes M.E worse.
M.E is a medical condition, and it is life threatening, and there is scientific evidence that it is so.
A girl has died from M.E, and there is evidence of significant reduce in blood volume, and multiple things wrong in the system entirely.

Trooper Keith
12-05-09, 02:40 AM
CBT works on the stress management and emotions, as stress makes M.E worse.
M.E is a medical condition, and it is life threatening, and there is scientific evidence that it is so.

CBT causes actual symptom reduction (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VB8-4R1KVVV-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ea26a594e3ed952e51744458209f94dd) in CFS, not just stress management.

CFS is a medically unexplained syndrome. There is scientific evidence that it is not life threatening (http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=462726), and most of the deaths associated with it are suicides or due to unrelated medical conditions.

There is no consensus on any kind of medical cause.

The only thing that there is any consensus on is that there are a cluster of symptoms that, when they occur without any known cause, comprise a syndrome which we call CFS. There's no evidence that there is a medical cause. There is also a lack of evidence (http://journals.lww.com/co-psychiatry/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2006&issue=11000&article=00013&type=abstract) showing discriminant validity from the purely psychological somatoform disorder.

sarey
12-05-09, 02:41 AM
Seriously, I'm not in the mood for someone like you. It has been proven to be a medical condition, & it has killed someone, & it can cause death & can be life threatening, It's a shame you're so ignorant but that's your choice. Have a nice day. Well, or not. =)

Trooper Keith
12-05-09, 02:49 AM
Seriously, I'm not in the mood for someone like you.

Someone who has reasoned a conclusion based on evidence?

It has been proven to be a medical condition,

No it hasn't. Proven by whom? Cite a source.

& it has killed someone,

Allegedly. Most of the associated deaths are suicides or unrelated. There are a few that are medically unexplained, but they can't be associated with the CFS. Cite a source.

& it can cause death & can be life threatening,

So you've said. Where are you getting this information?

It's a shame you're so ignorant but that's your choice.

One of us appears to be ignorant, but it's not the guy who is actively researching this as we speak.

Have a nice day. Well, or not. =)

It's past midnight, but hopefully I'll go to bed soon, I work in the morning. Thanks for your well wishes! I hope you're doing well too. =]

sarey
12-05-09, 02:54 AM
Okie dokie, here is my source;
http://www.hfme.org/methemedicalfacts.htm (http://www.hfme.org)

I've researched this heavily as I have it thank you.

Go have a nice read & look around.

Byedebye now. Arrogance. Urgh. They say it's bliss, & it really isn't for those who are on the receiving end. Tut.

Trooper Keith
12-05-09, 03:04 AM
I looked around. I noticed a distinct lack of proposed causes. There is a camp that believes the "epidemics" are caused by mass hysterias - something not entirely unheard of in the psychiatric community. I'm still poking around but this is a pretty one-sided website. It's hard to find websites that argue the other viewpoint, mainly because people with CFS are remarkably vocal about their desire for the disorder to have a physical cause. A lot of this website falls into the "epidemic" camp, which associates the condition with a "viral attack on the brain" but to date we have never found a "CFS virus." Are they proposing that any virus can cause CFS? I honestly don't know.

If we ever do find a real cause, my opinion on the matter will immediately reverse. So far, no dice, though I admit you've shown that there is some compelling research going on.

Which viral infection do you believe precipitated the onset your CFS?


At any rate we've gotten thoroughly off track here - we're supposed to be discussing fibromyalgia, something which you have failed to address entirely.

sarey
12-05-09, 03:06 AM
I didn't actually, I stated that FM is a not a psychosomatic disorder, it is a medical illness & it is considered one. & That page has a lot of RE's and the WHO consider M.E a neurological disorder, and it is known as more than 20 other more type of disorders, & it has proof of being a medical illness. & we, who have M.E, want people to recognize that this is a medical illness, we don't WANT a medical illness, we want recognition thank you.

Adios. I'm outie.

Trooper Keith
12-05-09, 03:14 AM
I didn't actually, I stated that FM is a not a psychosomatic disorder, it is a medical illness & it is considered one.

It's considered a medically unexplained syndrome. There's a slight difference.

& That page has a lot of RE's and the WHO consider M.E a neurological disorder, and it is known as more than 20 other more type of disorders, & it has proof of being a medical illness.

The disease appears to affect nerve function, though there's no known cause for that effect. But again, you're talking about CFS, not fibromyalgia.

& we, who have M.E, want people to recognize that this is a medical illness, we don't WANT a medical illness, we want recognition thank you.

I recognize that you have an illness and it must be very troubling for you. I also recognize that said illness has no known cause and remains a medically unexplained syndrome. There is no consensus as to the cause, even within the medical community. There is no one symptom of CFS, aside from fatigue, that appears in every CFS patient - it's not as if everyone has the same pathophysiology, everybody has a different pathophysiology, which does not do wonders for the idea of it being a single syndrome.

Again, I sympathize with your condition and hope you the very best with it.




However, you derailed back to CFS. We're supposed to be discussing fibromyalgia, which you still haven't addressed except to make some unsubstantiated claims.

sarey
12-05-09, 03:24 AM
Oh my dear, there are about 46 symptoms in M.E, and every person who has it, which is over 47 people from a forum, and many many more, experience A LOT more than fatigue. CFS is the wrong term for it & it does this, makes people think that's the one symptom, no my dear, there are multiple symptoms which every patient who has M.E must have to be diagnosed. And you know why that is? Because there are different severity of this illness, no one patient will experience the same as the next, just as with every illness, and with how severe it can be or how mild it can be.

& this is allowed opinions, you have yours, I have mine, yours isn't based on any facts, just opinions. I've said my piece now, as I said, for the last time, adios.

Trooper Keith
12-05-09, 03:29 AM
Oh my dear, there are about 46 symptoms in M.E, and every person who has it, which is over 47 people from a forum, and many many more, experience A LOT more than fatigue.

But does everyone experience all 46 symptoms?

Bedtime, looking forward to this thread in the morning.

sarey
12-05-09, 03:33 AM
I'm sure you are.

& No, but those who are more severely affected will more than likely experience more of them than those who are mildly affected. I've met many who have shared 20/30+ symptoms like I do. Fatigue is NOT the only symptom shared.

I won't be here posting further, I'm tired of the ignorance, I get enough of that from elsewhere. Just bare in mind how this could affect others with this illness. Adios.

sarey
12-05-09, 05:21 AM
Oh & fyi, there is evidence that M.E is a medical illness.
http://www.sleepydust.net/CFS-real-or-all-in-mind.html
& This is the amazingly strong woman who died as a result of M.E
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_Mirza

and, here is your evidence that FM is real & evidence proves it is not psychosomatic.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Is-Fibromyalgia-Simply-in-Your-Head,-or-is-it-Real?&id=170093
http://www.hopkins-arthritis.org/arthritis-info/fibromyalgia/articles/finding-fibro-evidence-suggests-pain-in-fibromyalgia-is-real.html
http://www.drpodell.org/fibromyalgia-disability-evidence.shtml

=) Adios.

Archon
12-05-09, 06:07 AM
A definition of Psychosomatic Disorders

Psychosomatic disorders or psychophysiologic illness involve symptoms that are caused by mental processes of the sufferer rather than immediate physiological causes. If a medical examination can find no physical or organic cause, or if an illness appears to result from emotional conditions such as anger, anxiety, depression or guilt, then it might be classified as psychosomatic.

So the main argument here is that it is a medical illness vs a psychosomatic illnesses? Why is it so important that it be a medical illness?

Psychosomatic doesn't imply malingering necessarily.

sarey
12-05-09, 06:34 AM
FM is not caused by emotions though, people with FM can be laughing and smiling, but they'll still be in pain. And as my links suggested, there is evidence in the brain that proves this is not psychosomatic.

Archon
12-05-09, 07:30 AM
FM is not caused by emotions though, people with FM can be laughing and smiling, but they'll still be in pain.

I never meant to suggest otherwise.

From "Is Fibromyalgia Simply in Your Head, or is it Real?" (which is a loaded question, it could be real AND in your head.)
MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) scans given to fibromyalgia patients indicate that FMS patients have a heightened response to pain stimuli. That is, individuals with fibromyalgia seem to experience pain far out of proportion to what would be considered normal.
MRI scans of the brain you'd imagine. This still suggests it's psychiatric.

Doubtless, it may be a number of years before fibromyalgia syndrome is more completed understood. However, many signs, and ongoing research, indicate that the condition is not psychiatric in nature, but, rather, can be tied to a physical origin.
Many psychiatric disorders can be tied to a physical origin too, so that doesn't mean that FM is not a psychiatric disorder.

All the other links you've provided suggest that the problem lies within the brain. I'm confused :(

sarey
12-05-09, 07:58 AM
The brain, not the mind love. The brain has chemicals, and these chemicals that are in those with FM that are irregular are not seen in those without FM. Conclusion: It is a medical condition/neurological condition.

Archon
12-05-09, 09:02 AM
The brain, not the mind love. The brain has chemicals, and these chemicals that are in those with FM that are irregular are not seen in those without FM. Conclusion: It is a medical condition/neurological condition.
The brain is the mind though :(

I don't think there is a chemical present in FM that is not present in the regular population. At the very least I don't see any evidence to suggest that there is :confused:

sarey
12-05-09, 09:10 AM
Read closely.

"
Evidence that fibromyalgia is a neural disorder.
No one disputes that fibromyalgia patients report that mild stimuli cause severe pain—we call this hyperalgesia. They also report that stimuli which shouldn’t normally cause pain, are to them painful. We call this allodynia.

But how do we know that patients are not just “making it up”. Do they actually experience the pain they report? This is a fair question since most patients “look well” and speak easily despite their reported pain.

Several lines of research now provide objective evidence of physical abnormalities in the pain signaling pathways of fibromyalgia patients. These confirm the patients’ self-reports.

For example, Gracely measured regional blood flow in the brain by functional MRI. In response to low level pressure fibromyalgia patients had increased regional blood flow in multiple areas of the brain. These changes in blood flow coincided with the patient’s report of pain. The same modest pressures, when applied to controls, did not cause pain and did not cause much cerebral blood flow alteration.

The authors concluded “… that fibromyalgia is characterized by cortical or sub-cortical augmentation of pain processing”.

Gibson, using cerebral evoked potentials also confirmed the increased pain sensitivity of fibromyalgia patients, as have several others. (10-14)

Staud and colleagues have published many papers on the phenomenon of temporal summation or wind-up. (15-17).

Temporal summation means that pain intensity increases when as you repeatedly apply the same intensity of painful stimulus. Both FMS patients and normal show temporal summation, but their patterns are different.

FMS patients report pain at much lower stimulus intensity than do normals. As we repeat the initial stimulus, pain increases more rapidly than it does for controls. Once the stimulus is stopped, pain decays more slowly. If a very low level of stimulus is maintained, FMS pain continues indefinitely. Controls stop feeling pain despite continuing even if we continue such a low level stimulus.

If healthy persons are tested both before and after intensive exercise, their sensitivity to pain decreases after exercise. For persons with fibromyalgia, it’s just the opposite. Vigorous exercise increases sensitivity to pain. These are all documented differences in the pain sensitivity of fibromyalgia compared to that in controls.

Cerebrospinal fluid studies also document objective changes with FMS. (18-20) These include:


An increased level of substance P, a pro-inflammatory mediator
An increased level of nerve growth factors
An increased level of CFS opiate levels
A reduced CFS levels of the neurohormone, Serotonin.

We also have animal models in which local injury can induce a diffusely increased sensitivity to pain similar to fibromyalgia. Activation of NMDA receptors plays a central role in inducing experimental fibromyalgia. In animals Ketamine, an NMDA antagonist can prevent neural sensitization. In humans, ketamine improves fibromyalgia pain in about 50% of patients. (21-23)

Taken together these studies confirm that fibromyalgia patients actually feel the pain they report, and that abnormal neural sensitization plays a central role.

But, if FMS is mainly physical, psychological factors can also play a role. About half of all fibromyalgia patients become anxious or depressed as the result of their chronic illness. Also a history of depression, anxiety and/or post-traumatic stress disorder is more frequent among people who develop FMS than it is in controls.

However, perhaps half of patients with fibromyalgia have no personal history of depression or anxiety and do not develop mood disorders, despite continuing illness.

And while several anti-depressant medicines can improve FMS pain, most often anti-depressants improve the fibromyalgia patient’s mood, but do not markedly reduce their level of pain.

Our best explanation is that fibromyalgia and disorders of mood share common risk factors. When both are present, each tends to make the other worse. This is a more complex and holistic model than “it’s all in your head”.

Dr. Hudson, a leading expert concludes:
“...our data are not consistent with the hypothesis that FMS is caused simply by mood disorder; rather, they are consistent with the hypothesis that FMS and mood disorders share important common–and possibly heritable causal factors.”
The bottom line for the family physician: This is a physical not mainly a mental illness. But, when anxiety, depression, poor coping skills, etc co-occur with fibromyalgia, it is important to give each the attention it deserves. It is also important to avoid the common error of blaming the patient for the frustration and complexities of this illness. (24)"

sarey
12-05-09, 09:13 AM
Oh &
"According to Dr Perricone (of The Perricone Prescrition), a pain neurotransmitter called substance P exists in abnormally high levels in the brains of fibromyalgia patients."

Trooper Keith
12-05-09, 09:31 AM
Oh &
"According to Dr Perricone (of The Perricone Prescrition), a pain neurotransmitter called substance P exists in abnormally high levels in the brains of fibromyalgia patients."

I don't have time to address the other post right now, I'm on my way to work, but you realize this makes no sense, right? Pain has to do with sensory organs, or with misfiring of the brain, there is no "pain neurotransmitter" and neurotransmitters do not work that way. What kind of doctor is Dr Perricone?

Oh, he's a dermatologist who makes his money writing books. I see.

sarey
12-05-09, 09:44 AM
lol, Okay then. I'm standing by what I've said, FM and M.E are both legit medical conditions. Deal with it. Because those who have these illnesses have to put up with people like you.

Bye now.

iforgot813
12-05-09, 01:52 PM
<o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" http:="" www.addforums.com="" forums="" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype> Several correlational studies have revealed that a substantial amount of subjects suffering from fibromyalgia (<st1:stockticker w:st="on">FMS</st1:stockticker>) and Rheumatoid arthritis (RA) have one thing in common – a gene on Chromosome 6 that codes for the antigen group: HLA DR4 (Hemminki et al. 662).
HLA types are known to exhibit the classic mendelian mode of inheritance. Each person has two HLA halotypes, and inherits one from each parent, which means there is a 50% chance of receiving a specific halotype from a parent. Each halotype contains three different antigen types, meaning one person has 6 antigen types. Since none of the discussed disorders are completely caused by genetic factors, this information tells us that the probability of having a genetic predisposition to these rheumatoid and autoimmune disorders is 50% on the maternal side of my family tree. The link between genetic predisposition and environmental triggers is heavily studied because it is hypothesized that the growing cases of autoimmune and rheumatoid disorders are associated with the ever changing environment. As human development continues, exposure to synthetic compounds increase while natural environments decrease, and the immune system may overreact as a result (Fassbender 136).
Those with halotypes that react adversely to synthetic environments may eventually fade out over several generations due to natural selection, but as of right now, the amount of rheumatic and autoimmune disorders is nearing epidemic numbers (Wallace & Clauw 34).

i had to write a paper last year, here's a piece of it. I don't know if its helpful, but I was proud of it! i'll post my sources if you want to see them

Trooper Keith
12-05-09, 06:33 PM
I would like to see your sources. I'm also curious about your wording: "a substantial amount." How does that translate? What constitutes a "substantial amount?" Is it a majority? A significant majority (P=0.05)? Why is it only a "substantial amount" if it is a genetic predictor? Basically, you're saying there are people with FMS who don't share this gene, and people with RA who don't share this gene. If FMS is predicted by this gene, what is the cause in people who don't possess the gene?

It's awfully flimsy to propose a cause for something that not everyone with the condition has.

blueroo
12-06-09, 07:25 AM
Sarey, if you weren't so busy trying to fight, you might learn something if you listened to KMiller. He's not saying FM doesn't exist. He never did. He's trying to sort out the science and help you understand.

A few links to FM sites isn't evidence. The word of a few people on your forum aren't data. And it's hard to take you seriously when you keep dismissing any evidence you don't like and keep threatening to leave the conversation if you don't get your way. That is not how adults carry on a discussion.

Megs
12-06-09, 12:02 PM
It seems that the term psychosomatic is not clearly defined in this thread. Personally I am confused... so if some of you can further clarify the definitions that you are using.

KMiller:

Is depression, anxiety, and all disorders that involve brain chemistry psychosomatic? You said:

The first-line treatments for fibromyalgia are psychiatric medications - tricyclic antidepressants and anticonvulsants. There are also two other psychiatric medications, Cymbalta, an SNRI, and Lyrica, an anticonvulsant. Neurontin (gabapentin) is a very common treatment, as is amitryptiline. All of these medications are neurologically active with no known effect in the rest of the body.

For instance, would I be correct to conclude that you believe that FM:
IS a medical condition
Is the cause of brain chemistry imbalances or the like
CAN be brought on by stresses in life (as depression can also be)
Can only be treated by fixing the brain issues, not the pain issues.

Is that psychosomatic?

FM wouldn't be psychosomatic if it was the cause of physical issues outside the brain, such as inflamed basal ganglia?

Now is there a difference between psychosomatic and neurological disorders such as ADHD? Particularly the idea that depression is not always permanent and ADHD is?

I am ONLY interested in KMiller's response to the questions... possibly Archon's as this is what I think they are trying to say... so I can understand.

Sarey:

You believe that FM and ME are both medical conditions?

Do you believe that the problems originate from the brain and imbalances in brain chemicals, or imflammation in basal ganglia... you have been jumping back and forth and I can't seem to follow.

But this is not psychosomatic since we do not control our brain chemicals?

Are psychosomatic disorders only those that are brought on by stress (i.e. throwing up during high stress times) and can be 'cured' when the stress is gone?

Is depression psychomatic since it may include an emotional onset, but is also an imbalance in the brain and cannot be controlled?

Again only interested in Sarey's answers... I do not particularly care what anyone else has to say, or what is the right answer... just looking at the differences in each side's definitions so I can figure out what the heck they are fighting about ;)

Cheers

Trooper Keith
12-06-09, 12:46 PM
It seems that the term psychosomatic is not clearly defined in this thread. Personally I am confused... so if some of you can further clarify the definitions that you are using.

Sure.

Is depression, anxiety, and all disorders that involve brain chemistry psychosomatic? You said:

The "somatic" in "psychosomatic" refers to physical sensations. Feelings of aches and pains associated with major depression would be psychosomatic. Nausea or hypertension associated with anxiety is psychosomatic.

For instance, would I be correct to conclude that you believe that FM:
IS a medical condition

Inasmuch as psychiatric conditions are medical, yes.

Is the cause of brain chemistry imbalances or the like

Yes.

CAN be brought on by stresses in life (as depression can also be)

Exacerbated by them, certainly. The causes aren't known, so we can't really say that it's "brought on" by stresses, because we don't know what brings it on.

Can only be treated by fixing the brain issues, not the pain issues.

Right, drugs like Lyrica and Cymbalta affect the brain and are much more successful at treating pain associated with FMS and CFS than opiates are.

FM wouldn't be psychosomatic if it was the cause of physical issues outside the brain, such as inflamed basal ganglia?

FMS wouldn't be psychosomatic if it were caused by physical issues outside the brain, but your example doesn't work because the basal ganglia are inside the brain. The problem is that FMS is not caused by physical issues outside the brain, or at least there's no evidence of such.

Now is there a difference between psychosomatic and neurological disorders such as ADHD? Particularly the idea that depression is not always permanent and ADHD is?

The difference is in the "somatic" part. ADHD does not have physical symptoms. Psychosomatization is when physical symptoms are caused by psychological mechanisms.

For example, somatoform disorder is defined by physical symptoms which mimic physical diseases, when there is no physical cause. It is a psychiatric condition and responds well to therapy. One of the points I made earlier in this thread with regards to CFS was that so far there is limited research that shows that CFS is valid as a construct that's not just a variation of somatoform disorder.

The thing is, we have to be careful before dismissing things as somatoform disorder - many times things that appear to have no physical cause do in fact have a physical cause that we just haven't found. In the case of the medically unexplained syndromes, however, the problem is that extensive research has been done, the systems directly associated with the symptoms (even loosely) have been checked, and still no physical cause can be found. Because of this, we can't dismiss the possibility that the symptoms are caused by psychological mechanisms.

sarey
12-06-09, 03:12 PM
Well, I'm not an adult (Y)

You believe that FM and ME are both medical conditions?
I do not just believe, it is a fact.

Do you believe that the problems originate from the brain and imbalances in brain chemicals, or inflammation in basal ganglia... you have been jumping back and forth and I can't seem to follow.
It has been proven in a young woman that her spinal cord was inflamed due to the M.E, this proves it is a medical condition, but there are also other system dysfunctions, in the brain, immune system, thermo system, hormonal system, body clock, cardiovascular, muscles, etc and there is a vast amount of proof.

But this is not psychosomatic since we do not control our brain chemicals?
Brain chemicals can be out of place in unhealthy people, and it can be a psychosomatic thing, but M.E and FM are not just wacked out brain chemicals. And there are certain brain chemicals that make it a psychosomatic disorder or a medical illness.

Are psychosomatic disorders only those that are brought on by stress (i.e. throwing up during high stress times) and can be 'cured' when the stress is gone?
Well, apparently so. When you are stressed, and you throw up, when the stress goes, I'm assuming the throwing up will at least subside. With M.E and FM, that doesn't happen. You could be laughing, smiling, but still suffer a great deal.

Is depression psychomatic since it may include an emotional onset, but is also an imbalance in the brain and cannot be controlled?
Depression is a psychological condition, there are certain chemicals, like I said, that can either make it psychiatric/psychological, and certain chemicals that can make it a medical condition. Just with any medical condition, there are irregularities in the body system, and certain irregularities that make it a medical condition.

Trooper Keith
12-06-09, 03:18 PM
Sarey, you are aware that something does not become a fact just because you say so, right?

Also, the problem with "proving" something is caused by CFS is that in order to "prove" it is caused by CFS, you simply don't find a cause. It's impossible to prove that CFS caused spinal cord inflammation because in order for something to be a symptom of CFS (and therefore be caused by it), it must not have a known cause.

sarey
12-06-09, 03:22 PM
Whatever "KMiller", I'm not saying it a fact based on my opinion, It is a medical condition by the World Health Organization, & it has been for a while, There are a lot of proof proving it is, & I'm not going to sit here & listen to you tell me otherwise. Bye now. =)

Trooper Keith
12-06-09, 03:26 PM
You can call me Keith. =]

I'm beginning to think you're not reading what I'm saying, seeing as I acknowledged it was a medical condition on this same page. You are attacking a straw man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman), and not addressing my actual points at all.

Megs
12-06-09, 03:27 PM
Thanks KMiller.So in your opinion, these causes for FM (that Sarey quoted as 'proof' that FM is not psychosomatic):The authors concluded “… that fibromyalgia is characterized by cortical or sub-cortical augmentation of pain processing”.

Cerebrospinal fluid studies also document objective changes with FMS. (18-20) These include:


An increased level of substance P, a pro-inflammatory mediator
An increased level of nerve growth factors
An increased level of CFS opiate levels
A reduced CFS levels of the neurohormone, Serotonin.

Would be psychosomatic.

So it seems the argument is in the name. I think that when Sarey hears that if someone claims a disorder is psychosomatic that we believe that it is a result of weak character or that we can 'will the disorder away'. You are not saying that... just saying that the pain that is physically felt is caused by a disorder or imbalance in the brain, regardless of how it is caused. Its not about if people are 'making it up'. I know you have never once said that.

Now I could be wrong about what Sarey believes psychosomatic to be... Maybe we will hear her answers.

sarey
12-06-09, 03:31 PM
FM and M.E are not psychosomatic, it's proven otherwise & is classified as a medical condition, causes or not, there are many medical conditions without a cause, yet they are still considered a medical condition.

You people don't know how severely disabling it is every single day, whether you're crying or laughing, it hurts, and it's exhausting, and your whole body is out of whack, 24 7 now for me since last year. & we have people like you to deal with. Well, skip me out on that this time.
It is a medical condition, end off really... it is classified as one, not psychosomatic.

Megs
12-06-09, 03:31 PM
wow lots have happened since I composed my post... will catch up

Megs
12-06-09, 03:33 PM
But, psychosomatic disorders ARE medical disorders...

Trooper Keith
12-06-09, 03:33 PM
Megs, all of those things seem like they could be physiological results of the psychological mechanisms, but the main problem with them is that those symptoms are not present in every person with CFS.

I'm proposing that the pain that is physically felt is the result of psychological mechanisms, and that other symptoms are a result of the body responding to the psychological distress. Note that this is just an idea I'm putting forth to stimulant conversation, and that there is no consensus on this - we don't know exactly what causes FMS. I'm just saying that I find the evidence that it is caused by psychological factors compelling.

I'm not saying that the pain isn't real, or that people should be able to just "stop feeling pain," any more than I would say that depression isn't real, or that people with an anxiety disorder should "stop feeling anxious."

Trooper Keith
12-06-09, 03:39 PM
FM and M.E are not psychosomatic, it's proven otherwise

It is not proven otherwise. The only way to prove otherwise would be to find that it is something else. Right now, we have not found that it is anything. That is in fact the basis of my proposition.

& is classified as a medical condition, causes or not, there are many medical conditions without a cause, yet they are still considered a medical condition.

Actually, there are not that many medical conditions without a cause. Pretty much CFS, FMS, "mutiple chemical sensitivity," Gulf War Syndrome, and somatoform disorder (which is psychiatric). We know what causes everything else. And we strongly suspect that Gulf War Syndrome is psychiatric.

You people don't know how severely disabling it is every single day, whether you're crying or laughing, it hurts, and it's exhausting, and your whole body is out of whack, 24 7 now for me since last year.

I understand that it must suck, but the fact that it sucks doesn't make what you're saying true. The fact that you have symptoms that suck doesn't mean those symptoms have a physical cause (and in fact by definition they must not have a physical cause, because if they do, you don't have CFS).

& we have people like you to deal with.

People who think that the fact that your condition responds to psychiatric treatment might indicate psychiatric origins? You should be happy people like me exist - if we didn't, drug companies wouldn't waste time developing psychiatric medications like Lyrica or Cymbalta for FMS or CFS.

It is a medical condition, end off really... it is classified as one, not psychosomatic.

I have not yet once in this thread said it is not a medical condition, just for the record.

sarey
12-06-09, 03:40 PM
Like I said, there are certain CHEMICALS that make something psychosomatic and physiological.

& lol, I'm done here, I put up with this crap from doctors and my family, I'm not glad there are people like you.

Trooper Keith
12-06-09, 03:44 PM
Like I said, there are certain CHEMICALS that make something psychosomatic and physiological.

I honestly don't understand what this sentence is meant to say. Uh, I agree that there are chemicals involved. I'd even go so far as to say those chemicals might be in the brain and might be related to physiological symptoms caused by psychological mechanisms (seeing as psychological mechanisms and neurochemical activity complement one another).

Megs
12-06-09, 03:57 PM
Me: You believe that FM and ME are both medical conditions?
Sarey: I do not just believe, it is a fact.

Me: Do you believe that the problems originate from the brain and imbalances in brain chemicals, or inflammation in basal ganglia... you have been jumping back and forth and I can't seem to follow.
Sarey: It has been proven in a young woman that her spinal cord was inflamed due to the M.E, this proves it is a medical condition, but there are also other system dysfunctions, in the brain, immune system, thermo system, hormonal system, body clock, cardiovascular, muscles, etc and there is a vast amount of proof.

Comment: Can anyone see the answer to my question in this response? Furthermore conclusions cannot be drawn from ONE case study.

Me: But this is not psychosomatic since we do not control our brain chemicals?
Sarey: Brain chemicals can be out of place in unhealthy people, and it can be a psychosomatic thing, but M.E and FM are not just wacked out brain chemicals. And there are certain brain chemicals that make it a psychosomatic disorder or a medical illness.

Comment: Can you find me scientific sources that differentiate 'medical' brain chemicals and the 'non-medical' brain chemicals?

Me: Are psychosomatic disorders only those that are brought on by stress (i.e. throwing up during high stress times) and can be 'cured' when the stress is gone?
Sarey: Well, apparently so. When you are stressed, and you throw up, when the stress goes, I'm assuming the throwing up will at least subside. With M.E and FM, that doesn't happen. You could be laughing, smiling, but still suffer a great deal.

Comment: A depressed person can laugh and smile too.

Me: Is depression psychomatic since it may include an emotional onset, but is also an imbalance in the brain and cannot be controlled?
Sarey: Depression is a psychological condition, there are certain chemicals, like I said, that can either make it psychiatric/psychological, and certain chemicals that can make it a medical condition. Just with any medical condition, there are irregularities in the body system, and certain irregularities that make it a medical condition.

Comment: Sure those depressed people are crazies because it is their 'psychological' brain chemicals... My FM is fine because its my 'medical' brain chemicals

Megs
12-06-09, 04:06 PM
Megs, all of those things seem like they could be physiological results of the psychological mechanisms, but the main problem with them is that those symptoms are not present in every person with CFS.

I'm proposing that the pain that is physically felt is the result of psychological mechanisms, and that other symptoms are a result of the body responding to the psychological distress. Note that this is just an idea I'm putting forth to stimulant conversation, and that there is no consensus on this - we don't know exactly what causes FMS. I'm just saying that I find the evidence that it is caused by psychological factors compelling.

I'm not saying that the pain isn't real, or that people should be able to just "stop feeling pain," any more than I would say that depression isn't real, or that people with an anxiety disorder should "stop feeling anxious."

K, got ya ;)

I tend to agree with you KM... I would also speculate that there are mechanisms in the brain involved... though there is no point in arguing issues to someone who will not listen.

ginniebean
12-07-09, 12:24 AM
Well, I have absolutely no idea what the cause of FM is. I have worked on several clients with FM as a Massage Therapy. It's a very unusual condition. I noted that it was as if every time my clients came in they came in with a different body. By that I mean, the trigger points (sore spots) weren't stable, they'd just show up anywhere. This made treatment a very temporary relief.

All I know is that the pain is real, and so are the trigger points and that's all I had to know.

Imnapl
12-07-09, 01:25 AM
I don't have the link close at hand, but the news carried an interesting report about a study. Researchers chose a test group of healthy, young, university students. The test subjects slept in a sleep lab and just as they would go into the most restful sleep, someone would wake them up. After a few days of disrupted sleep resulting in sleep deprivation, the test subjects displayed symptoms of fibromyalgia. I don't know a lot about fibromyalgia, but what I do know is that I will never allow pain to disturb my sleep on a regular basis, nor will I use a prescription sleep aid.

NoReally
12-07-09, 01:22 PM
The brain, not the mind love. The brain has chemicals, and these chemicals that are in those with FM that are irregular are not seen in those without FM. Conclusion: It is a medical condition/neurological condition.

The brain is the mind though :(

Seems to me this is the heart of it? Sarey is seeing some kind of separation between brain and mind, and associates the word "psychosomatic" as implicating her mind, when it is the brain chemicals that are at issue? Thus psychological disorders (to Sarey) are disorders of the mind, & medical disorders are disorders of the brain?

Just trying to understand where Sarey's coming from. I don't personally see a difference between brain and mind so I'm not claiming that as my opinion.

But, psychosomatic disorders ARE medical disorders...

I think that's the point. Psychosomatic doesn't mean someone is making it up or faking it...it means that the physical origins of the disorder are related to the brain rather than the other body parts. Right? (The brain is just another part of the physical body.)

Sarey: I would think that what matters most is finding out what is causing fibromyalgia, and what can help it. If what helps it is psychiatric medicine, then so be it.

Lunacie
12-07-09, 01:45 PM
I've suffered from Fibromyalgia for over 40 years, from before hardly anyone knew there was a name for this syndrome. No one knows for sure yet what causes it, and there wasn't a lot of research until recently into possible causes. It may be a neurotransmitter problem similar to Sensory Defensiveness. It may be auto-immune, with a genetic tendency triggered by an illness or some other stress. Testing for brain issues concerning ADHD is still a relatively new branch of research, but similar testing may reveal the underlying causes of FM. I seriously doubt it will turn out to be a psychomatic disorder.


While the underlying cause or causes of FM still remain a mystery, new research findings continue to bring us closer to understanding the basic mechanisms of fibromyalgia. Most researchers agree that FM is a disorder of central processing with neuroendocrine/neurotransmitter dysregulation. The FM patient experiences pain amplification due to abnormal sensory processing in the central nervous system. An increasing number of scientific studies now show multiple physiological abnormalities in the FM patient, including: increased levels of substance P in the spinal cord, low levels of blood flow to the thalamus region of the brain, HPA axis hypofunction, low levels of serotonin and tryptophan and abnormalities in cytokine function.

Recent studies show that genetic factors may predispose individuals to a genetic susceptibility to FM. For some, the onset of FM is slow; however, in a large percentage of patients the onset is triggered by an illness or injury that causes trauma to the body. These events may act to incite an undetected physiological problem already present.

Exciting new research has also begun in the areas of brain imaging and neurosurgery. Ongoing research will test the hypothesis that FM is caused by an interpretative defect in the central nervous system that brings about abnormal pain perception. Medical researchers have just begun to untangle the truths about this life-altering disease.


from The National Fibromyalgia Association (http://www.fmaware.org/site/PageServer?pagename=fibromyalgia_causes)

PickMeUpRoadie
12-14-09, 12:34 AM
FM and M.E are not psychosomatic, it's proven otherwise & is classified as a medical condition, causes or not, there are many medical conditions without a cause, yet they are still considered a medical condition.

You people don't know how severely disabling it is every single day, whether you're crying or laughing, it hurts, and it's exhausting, and your whole body is out of whack, 24 7 now for me since last year. & we have people like you to deal with. Well, skip me out on that this time.
It is a medical condition, end off really... it is classified as one, not psychosomatic.
The problem with your stance here is that you have not produced a significant amount of peer-reviewed professional sources. You are citing non-profit organizations' websites primarily, without a primary source for almost any of the cited information.

The problem with FM is it is sort of a catch-all. Its very hard to classify a disease or syndrome when so many similar symptoms, yet very different causes exist under the same classification. Much more research needs to be done to definitively classify FM from other disorders/diseases/conditions, but most of the information existing in medical and other peer-reviewed journals say that it is linked to some sort of phenomenon related to emotions and stress. This isn't to say that it isn't real, it is just saying that in most of the studies out there regarding the source of FM it has a psychologically based trigger.

search EbscoHost or any other journal database and just look at the abstracts. Then formulate a conclusion.

And never cite Wikipedia. Wikipedia is user generated content, often with a bias on less understood articles.

sarey
12-14-09, 03:57 AM
duh, of course emotions/stress will exacerbate symptoms, stress/emotions do that with every illness out there. it does not mean it is the direct cause.

serotonin junky
12-15-09, 06:27 PM
This I found quite by accident when searching through neurotransmitter info trying to understand it.

1. Digestive System<O:p</O:p
Acetylcholine is produced in the Intestines where its function is to enhance the process of peristalsis, thereby helping to prevent Constipation.<O:p</O:p

2. Metabolism<O:p</O:p
It has been hypothesized that Acetylcholine malfunction (especially in its relationship with Nicotinic Receptors) may be an underlying cause of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS). The rationale is that Acetylcholine malfunction in the Peripheral Nervous System may account for the physical (muscle) Fatigue experienced by CFS patients and that Acetylcholine malfunction in the Central Nervous System may account for the mental Fatigue experienced by CFS patients. Insufficient release of Acetylcholine at the Neuromuscular Junction is an underlying cause of many cases of (muscular) Fatigue<O:p</O:p
http://www.antiagingdoctor.co.za/?p=33

sarey
12-15-09, 09:15 PM
^^ yes, CFS/M.E is a disorder which does affect the CNS, & inflammation of the spinal cord has been found as evidence, as has a lot of other things that are dysfunctional and irregular in the bodies system, the WHO classify it as a neurological disorder and a medical illness.
but the OP is on about F.M.

Lunacie
12-16-09, 09:35 AM
I have learned something from reading this thread. Most of my research in the last few years has been on Autism, Sensory Disorders, and Anxiety Disorders - so I was still under the impression that FM might be an auto-immune disease. I have learned that has been ruled out. So now I learn that it is classified by some as a neurological disorder. In a way that makes sense. Wish I had time to do some reading on that, but we have to go to school early today for a 3-year update on my Autistic granddaughter.

serotonin junky
12-18-09, 05:41 AM
Interesting article I was diagnosed long ago with fibro and it was after taking prozac I have long thought it had something to do with that drug.
Very interesting story as until very recently serotonin syndrom was thougth to come on suddenly and be life threatening. This is a case where it was a gradual build up from long term use. I wonder how many people have been misdiagnosed hence mistreated. I also wonder what serotonin and fibro have in common really more questions than answers thought I would post in case some have this diagnosis and are taking serotonin.
Misdiagnosis of Serotonin Syndrome as Fibromyalgia and the Role of Physical Therapists

Gregory M Alnwick
GM Alnwick, PT, DPT, is Staff Physical Therapist and Master Clinician, Genesis Rehabilitation Services, Gorham Outpatient Clinic,
Submitted July 23, 2006; Accepted February 15, 2008


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</TD><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; WIDTH: 95%; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-TOP: 0in" width="95%"><O:p</O:p

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Background and Purpose: With increased use of serotonergic medications,<SUP> </SUP>a condition triggered by serotonin excess within the brain and<SUP> </SUP>spinal cord has emerged and may be gaining prevalence. The purposes<SUP> </SUP>of this case report are to describe how to identify serotonin<SUP> </SUP>syndrome in a patient who is taking citalopram (a selective<SUP> </SUP>serotonin reuptake inhibitor) on the basis of signs and symptoms<SUP> </SUP>and to promote the ability of physical therapists to recognize<SUP> </SUP>such signs and symptoms.<SUP> </SUP>
Case Description: The patient was a 42-year-old woman referred<SUP> </SUP>for physical therapy with a diagnosis of fibromyalgia. The physical<SUP> </SUP>therapist recognized that the patient's symptoms did not resemble<SUP> </SUP>those of fibromyalgia and recommended referral to a neurologist<SUP> </SUP>for further diagnostic testing.<SUP> </SUP>
The good thing about this is this lady had a complete recovery after the drugs were stopped and months of physio. yeah

PickMeUpRoadie
12-18-09, 11:44 PM
My mother has been Dxed with Fibromyalgia. However, I have my doubts about that being the cause of symptoms, but rather a complement of symptoms from a more treatable condition.

My evidence-
-Insensitivity to first line dental anesthetics (I read something that said mostly it is Lidocaine, and no longer Novacaine used, suggesting hypokalemia)

and

-A recent discovery of my ADHD being cured by potassium supplementation, suggesting there may be a genetic component.


I realize that this is obviously not enough evidence to make a scientific observation, but what do others think? It is just a hunch of mine. I have suggested this to her, but she is leary about it since I informed her that she would have to d/c her Naproxen Sodium due to increased chance of K toxicity.

Lunacie
12-19-09, 11:01 AM
My mother has been Dxed with Fibromyalgia. However, I have my doubts about that being the cause of symptoms, but rather a complement of symptoms from a more treatable condition.

My evidence-
-Insensitivity to first line dental anesthetics (I read something that said mostly it is Lidocaine, and no longer Novacaine used, suggesting hypokalemia)

and

-A recent discovery of my ADHD being cured by potassium supplementation, suggesting there may be a genetic component.


I realize that this is obviously not enough evidence to make a scientific observation, but what do others think? It is just a hunch of mine. I have suggested this to her, but she is leary about it since I informed her that she would have to d/c her Naproxen Sodium due to increased chance of K toxicity.

I am also very sensitive to dental anesthetics - but a few months ago I added potassium supplements to my own regimen with no noticable improvement in my FM symptoms, or ADHD-I symptoms either. I'm glad you've found it helpful, and it's possible that your mom could do a trial run of the supplement to see if it helps her.

But I balk at the word "cure". I think ADHD is more complex than simple potassium deficiency, although that might cause symptoms similar to ADHD.

PickMeUpRoadie
12-19-09, 11:12 AM
But I balk at the word "cure". I think ADHD is more complex than simple potassium deficiency, although that might cause symptoms similar to ADHD.

Well, for me, the word cure seems to do it.

If it ends up being a simple K deficiency for me then it may be more properly considered a side effect of a different issue.

But w/e. To each their own, and I do see what you mean from POV as well.

Lunacie
12-19-09, 11:16 AM
Well, for me, the word cure seems to do it.

If it ends up being a simple K deficiency for me then it may be more properly considered a side effect of a different issue.

But w/e. To each their own, and I do see what you mean from POV as well.

I wasn't saying you didn't cure your condition. I was saying that if taking potassium supplements "cured" you, then it cured a potassium defiency, not an actual case of ADHD. I'm not sure you understood me.

forinstants
03-24-10, 10:20 AM
Sorry, I am a newbie and haven't read every single post yet, but for me, I don't think it's psychosomatic. But I do think psychological events affect me in a physical way.

I get stressed. I tense up. The muscular tension causes the fibro to flare. The fibro exhausts me and the CFS kicks in.

My missing link for the past 9 years has been ADHD.

How could I explain to people that forcing myself to remember to check the mail was equally as stressful to my mind/body as remembering and attending a doctor's appointment? My mind/body could not separate small stressors from big stressors.

With ADHD, having to remember *anything at all* is a huge stressor for me...

Now with the new ADHD medication, I'm doing better than ever with all of my symptoms (though not cured). This was without psychotherapy. Could psychotherapy help? Sure, I could learn not to tense up, how to distinguish between low stress and high stress.

But would it work as well or consistantly as medication -- NO WAY.

I've spent many months in therapy -- interspersed throughout the years (usually six months at a time) and was dx with either depression or anxiety. But as we know today, it was ADHD.

DonnaK
04-11-10, 05:55 PM
There are many scholarly articles supporting the view that fibromyalgia, cfs, and related syndromes are physical neurological manifestations of susceptible individuals' reactions to the same heavy metals in our environment, food, dentistry, etc. that do not affect non-susceptible individuals strongly enough to elicit a debilitating reaction.

from http://www.springerlink.com/content/p8172g407l50p288/
"...low-grade chronic exposure to mercury may induce a state of systemic sensitization as verified by Hg-specific lymphocyte reactivityin vitro..."

from http://www.naturefinder.net/Autoimmune%20and%20Mercury.pdf
"Mercury and other toxic metals inhibit astrocyte function in the brain and CNS(119), causing increased glutamate and calcium related neurotoxicity(119,333,226) which are responsible for much of the Fibromyalgia symptoms."

(119)(a) L.Ronnback et al, "Chronic encephalopaties induced by low doses of mercury or lead", Br J Ind Med 49: 233-240, 1992; & H.Langauer-Lewowicka,” Changes in the nervous system due to occupational metallic mercury poisoning” Neurol Neurochir Pol 1997 Sep-Oct;31(5):905-13; &(b) Kim P, Choi BH. “Selective inhibition of glutamate uptake by mercury in cultured mouse astrocytes”, Yonsei Med J 1995; 36(3): 299-305; & Brookes N. In vitro evidence for the role of glutatmate in the CNS toxicity of mercury. Toxicology 1992, 76(3):245-56; & Albrecht J, Matyja E. Glutamate: a potential mediator of inorganic mercury toxicity. Metab Brain Dis 1996; 11:175-84.

from http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0161475499700199
"Wilcoxon rank sum tests showed that patients with fibromyalgia had significantly higher calcium and magnesium levels than the control subjects at α = .025 and .05, respectively." (can people make their calcium level higher psychosomatically?)

from https://www.emersonecologics.com/Content/PDF/ProductSheets/SUP29.pdf
"Aluminum toxicity may play a role in symptoms experienced by magnesium- deficient fibromyalgia patients since magnesium is needed to help the body block the toxic effects of aluminum."

from http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/13590849208997961
"We present data supporting a critical role for magnesium and malate in ATP production under aerobic and hypoxic conditions; and indirect evidence for magnesium and malate deficiency in FM." "Adequate magnesium levels prevent this toxic effect of aluminum..."

Thousands more if you just search.

The sensitivity to heavy metals like mercury, aluminum, etc. surely is as believable as the sensitivity some people have to the much more benign peanut? Yet peanut butter was banned from my daughter's school due to one child's peanut allergy, lest he smell it in the cafeteria and have a fatal reaction.

Lunacie
04-12-10, 08:41 AM
Thanks for the info/links, DonnaK. I had noticed that many of my FM symptoms became less troublesome after I added a combination of Magnesium/Calcium/Zinc to my regimen. I thought I was just in remission or that my symptomology had changed but maybe it's due to the addition of magnesium in my diet?

xav
04-13-10, 09:33 AM
Hello ,

Not wanting to offense anyone but i have a very serious question :

Why does it matter so much if fibro. is or not a psychosomatic disorder ?

Suffering from back pain and cruralgia which go more bad as years go by , some doctors start to talk to me about fibro.
In my case , as i understand it , it may be a small case of fibro with the risk being of aggravation in the futur.

With my small medical knowledge it s seem to me , from my readings, that fibromyalgia is an hypersensitivy of the cerebral center that control the feeling of pain. Probably because this center ( hippotalamus ? ) was too much stress after years of continuous pain whatever the reason of this pain.

Imnapl
04-13-10, 07:45 PM
With my small medical knowledge it s seem to me , from my readings, that fibromyalgia is an hypersensitivy of the cerebral center that control the feeling of pain. Probably because this center ( hippotalamus ? ) was too much stress after years of continuous pain whatever the reason of this pain.That is approximately my understanding as well. Simply put: chronic pain makes the brain do funny things. I have seen what improperly treated chronic pain can do to people and as soon as my sleep is disturbed for more than a couple of nights, I visit the doctor to find out why or fix it.

Mary
04-14-10, 08:49 PM
I can say one thing for myself. I took 1.5 mg of melotonin to induce sleep a few nights ago. I slept better and longer and wasn't in so much pain. However... that was the only night I did take it, because it was a test of sorts. I've not got as good a sleep the nights since. My Fibro pain is worse because of the lack of sleep and I've spent the last 3 days in misery. No money to fill scripts to help ease that pain either.

So tonight.. I'm going to try it again and see how my night turns out.

forinstants
04-24-10, 08:19 AM
There is a test that proves that the Fibro pain reaction is real. They squeeze your thumb while looking at the pain centers in your brain. But it's too expensive a test for many people.

How many disability cases would get proven with this test?

I think there are many different types of Fibro. I've met many women, three personal friends too, with Fibro, and we each present differently.

Some have very little fatigue. Some are like me, lots of fatigue. Some can eat anything. Some are sensitive to foods. Some can handle all kinds of emotional stress. Some can't handle any emotional stress at all. Some have semi-fit bodies. Some have bodies broken down from sprains, breaks and surgeries.

I'm thinking there's more than one cause of the pain. More than one reason that Fibro exists. I mean, all that Fibro really means is that someone has severe pain without a known source, right?

And for some people (men included), it will be a more psychosomatic cause than physical (with the physical being the way their body perceives pain), and for others it will be a very physical cause (chemical sensitiviities, weak bones or muscles, a virus, etc.)

I have learned not to take it personally when someone says, "It's all in your head," because low-and-behold, they come back to me a couple years later asking me why they are in so much pain, could it be Fibro?

Trying to make a one-size-fits-all Fibro is very self-defeating.

Imnapl
04-24-10, 01:33 PM
I'm thinking there's more than one cause of the pain. More than one reason that Fibro exists. I mean, all that Fibro really means is that someone has severe pain without a known source, right?No. Fibromyalgia is an unusual/exagerated reaction to chronic pain - what causes the original chronic pain is not the issue, it's the body's response to the pain that is universal.

I have learned not to take it personally when someone says, "It's all in your head,"It is - unless your brain, the pain control center, is situated somewhere else in the body. :)

If you think about phantom limb pain, is it easier to understand the brain, pain, body connection?

Sit-n-Spin
04-24-10, 03:20 PM
I wasn't saying you didn't cure your condition. I was saying that if taking potassium supplements "cured" you, then it cured a potassium defiency, not an actual case of ADHD. I'm not sure you understood me.

I see you mention magnesium, too. I've been prescribed magnesium (along with B2) by my headache specialist for migraines. My pain specialist also recommended magnesium even though a test shows I am not deficient. My headache specialist said it won't cause all to go away, but can reduce the frequency and severity of them. Even if they "cured" my migraines I would still think of myself as a migraineur since only the magnesium would be preventing them. I am open to neurological problems being cured or treated by supplements (although I'm not against medications at all). I'm open to ADD or Fibromylagia being if not a deficiency of something at least a sensitivity to or inability to process certain nutrients others are able to do just fine.

On another note, I tend to feel all my pain on the left side. Does anyone have a theory on that?

Sit-n-Spin
04-24-10, 03:23 PM
Hello ,

Not wanting to offense anyone but i have a very serious question :

Why does it matter so much if fibro. is or not a psychosomatic disorder ?

Suffering from back pain and cruralgia which go more bad as years go by , some doctors start to talk to me about fibro.
In my case , as i understand it , it may be a small case of fibro with the risk being of aggravation in the futur.

With my small medical knowledge it s seem to me , from my readings, that fibromyalgia is an hypersensitivy of the cerebral center that control the feeling of pain. Probably because this center ( hippotalamus ? ) was too much stress after years of continuous pain whatever the reason of this pain.

Good point. My BP went up last week probably due to taking my ADD meds along with having a migraine. I learned after my C-section that pain can cause BP to rise. Does that make it psychosomatic? I mean, it's not like I suddenly had clogged arteries. It was "just" in my brain, but I certainly had high BP because of it.

Imnapl
04-24-10, 09:05 PM
I'm open to ADD or Fibromylagia being if not a deficiency of something at least a sensitivity to or inability to process certain nutrients others are able to do just fine.You contradict yourself in the same sentence! If one is unable to process certain nutrients, one will develop a deficiency.

On another note, I tend to feel all my pain on the left side. Does anyone have a theory on that?There is lots of information available on the internet.

Imnapl
04-24-10, 09:10 PM
My BP went up last week probably due to taking my ADD meds along with having a migraine. I learned after my C-section that pain can cause BP to rise.Pain kills. Pain management is a big consideration when determining the length of post-surgical hospital stays.

Sit-n-Spin
04-24-10, 11:42 PM
You contradict yourself in the same sentence! If one is unable to process certain nutrients, one will develop a deficiency.

There is lots of information available on the internet.

I'm not sure that not being able to use something properly is technically a deficiency. I am not deficient in magnesium according to tests, but two doctors have me taking it anyway.

Is their information specifically on why someone would have pain on one side? I don't know why my doctors have never explained why this is. Can a person have more testosterone on one side than the other?

Imnapl
04-25-10, 12:54 AM
I'm not sure that not being able to use something properly is technically a deficiency. I am not deficient in magnesium according to tests, but two doctors have me taking it anyway.Why?

Can a person have more testosterone on one side than the other?What are your symptoms?

Sit-n-Spin
04-25-10, 10:44 AM
Why am I taking the magnesium? To help lessen the frequency and severity of my migraines (along with B2) and to help with relaxing muscles.

As far as the testosterone question, I have all my pain on my left side. Now that I've stopped taking birth control (and somewhat with it) I have more hair loss on my head on my left side and have more hair growth (the fuzzy kind) on my chin on the left side with almost none on the right.

I did a little searching last night using the term "unilateral" and other related search terms. I found one man who'd written on a forum about his hair loss all over his body only on the left side. No answer as to why, though. I also found some information about having only one ovary be poly-cystic. I have PCOS, but wonder if I need to have one ovary removed. Oddly, when I had my first ultrasound when pregnant at about six weeks (had some spotting) the woman doing it made a comment like, "Huh, I can't see your left ovary." She didn't even know about the other problems. So, something strange is going on.

I have appts this week with the dermotologist, the endocrinologist and the psychiatrist. I'm pretty upset about all the hair loss probably from going off the pill a couple of months ago, but maybe also a little from the Vyvanse. And my head itches so much I can't stand it! I put liquid Benadryl on it last night. I have sores in my head, too. I had none of this before. If anyone knows of something to put in my hair to ease the itching please let me know!

I have read that feverfew can help with the migraines and saw palmetto with hair loss. If anyone knows about either of those please post or PM me. Thanks!

Imnapl
04-25-10, 10:52 AM
And my head itches so much I can't stand it! I put liquid Benadryl on it last night. I have sores in my head, too. I had none of this before. If anyone knows of something to put in my hair to ease the itching please let me know!Any history of psoriasis in the family? Easy to miss or assume it's just dandruff. Are you able to purchase T-Gel shampoo, or something similar, where you live. The endocrinologist sounds like a very good idea.

xav
04-25-10, 10:52 AM
hello,

more i read about add and other illness, more i understand the very little extend of pratical knowledge the medical science have to offer about our neural system ( brain and entire body ).

Just yesterday i have come to realise that my frequent and almost unstoppable need to sleep where i am stress is a relative common illness and even have a name : narcolepsya.

Of course in the past 3 years of multi exam not a doctor have had that idea ; when i said that i tend to fall asleep docs start to talk about a slow digestion ...
But , i let the docs in their ecosystems of theory and let go to the funny part :

As i read about narcolepsya i found what is the main suspect about this sidease : the hypotalamus and some neurotransmetters inside it !!

Now i have a very very naive question :
what are the proba that three different disease ( add with it s bad memory, fibro , narcolep. ) are founded regulated, if not originated, from the same region of brain and still be really three different disease ??

Sit-n-Spin
04-25-10, 11:00 AM
xav, I have the same sort of issues, finding that treatments for one problem are recommended for some other problems I have. The doctors have not been very helpful about connecting the dots.

Imnapl, No psoriasis at all. And it's not dandruff. It came on very suddenly over the course of about two days, with the second day being unbearable, about two weeks after I started the Vyvanse. I went off it and took Visteril until it was better then started the Vyvanse again. Same thing. In fact, I'd just gone for my follow-up and refilled my prescription a day or two before it started again. That's how suddenly it comes on.

xav
04-25-10, 03:41 PM
to all :

Just remember that i am a French where add is almost unknow and where generally the medical practice and the law are very different from the anglo saxon world.

What ever your contry i start to realise that doctors have more and more patients, less and less time for each of them and simultaneously the medical knowledge is more and more complex.

As one doc has frankly said to me : "we have nothing to propose to you to really cure you because we can't go inside the brain to measure precisely the neurotransmetters and the hormones like we do with a blood taking in the arm for the body" . No other specialist has been so honest and frank with me.
I know because my treatment is temporary and can't be extand much ( problem with intelligence, memory , skin sensibility and shaking hands ... ) and all specialist tend to be very confused when i asked them what to do in the medium and long term as treatment ?
Just as an example : no specialist has propose to me to alternate some medicine between pain treatment , muscle cramps and sleep disorder ....

Two of my children are almost adults, my little girl is an ado and i m prond of them (even with the difficulties ) but now as years start to add i have the feeling that i am on my own to have the best possible treatment and , in the futur when i ll be an old man, i think i will have to be very careful to not be classified as an mentally ill senescent old person ....

Sit-n-Spin
04-25-10, 04:08 PM
I know I've written this repeatedly here, but magnesium can help with muscles. And I've read some people think it helps with AD/HD. I found that interesting because my headache specialist and pain specialist both have me taking magnesium (and B2 from the headache specialist).

xav
04-25-10, 04:24 PM
yes magnesium is good for muscle, but as many medicines , not too much ...

speaking of medicine i have an idea and a pratical problem :

- problem first : this forum is good, almost too good so it's huge and it s not always easy to decide where to write something that i want to retrieve regulary for many years .

- what for ? that's the idea : I would like very much to have a place where write a table of my treatment and it's evolution in time . This table would contain the names of medicine and also the scientific name of active molecule of medicine ( to be able to skip the national difference between countries in the name of medicine ) and at least the reason what for each medicine is prescribed.

each people could participate to such a table and learn a little from the experience of others. The youngers would be able to understand to problem of older people, which they will become one day and all will be able , hopefully, to see in advance some problems between medicine combinaison.

The goal of such a table is absolutly not to try to auto diagnose but to have much clearly informations in the relations between medicine, illness and medical history.
For me , even with many years of science study ( but not in medical field ) i find difficult to follow and remember ( add ? right ! ) the relations between neurotransmetters and hormones. And don't speak to me about the many types of neuro medoc !

Lunacie
04-28-10, 01:46 PM
Why am I taking the magnesium? To help lessen the frequency and severity of my migraines (along with B2) and to help with relaxing muscles.

As far as the testosterone question, I have all my pain on my left side. Now that I've stopped taking birth control (and somewhat with it) I have more hair loss on my head on my left side and have more hair growth (the fuzzy kind) on my chin on the left side with almost none on the right.

I did a little searching last night using the term "unilateral" and other related search terms. I found one man who'd written on a forum about his hair loss all over his body only on the left side. No answer as to why, though. I also found some information about having only one ovary be poly-cystic. I have PCOS, but wonder if I need to have one ovary removed. Oddly, when I had my first ultrasound when pregnant at about six weeks (had some spotting) the woman doing it made a comment like, "Huh, I can't see your left ovary." She didn't even know about the other problems. So, something strange is going on.

I have appts this week with the dermotologist, the endocrinologist and the psychiatrist. I'm pretty upset about all the hair loss probably from going off the pill a couple of months ago, but maybe also a little from the Vyvanse. And my head itches so much I can't stand it! I put liquid Benadryl on it last night. I have sores in my head, too. I had none of this before. If anyone knows of something to put in my hair to ease the itching please let me know!

I have read that feverfew can help with the migraines and saw palmetto with hair loss. If anyone knows about either of those please post or PM me. Thanks!

You mentioned you take ADD meds - my daughter has been having an itchey rash on her shoulders, up the back of her neck, and onto her scalp. The doctor doesn't know for sure that the Concerta is causing it, but after she finishes this prescription (to finish the school year) she's going to prescribe something different and see if there's a change. It could be exzema, but that's usually more widespread than just the head and shoulders, eh?

Sit-n-Spin
04-28-10, 03:22 PM
That's what I have. It's kind of like a heat rash behind my ears, a little between my breasts and a little on my back. That I could rationalize was a heat rash (maybe not so much behind the ears as it got worse), but then I got it kind of around and under my nose. I've never had heat rash there. And my head is not full of sores!!! It's horrible. But, to answer your question about being widespread, it's mostly my head and behind my ears.

I went to the dermatologist two days ago and he gave me something (an oil) to put on my head. He did not say it was anything like eczema or psoriasis. I had the reaction after a couple of weeks, but had also had a new hair product used on me by my hairdresser (a root lifter) so we weren't sure if that had caused it. I went off the meds and took prescription Vistoril (strong antihistamine) until it was better then tried the Vyvanse again. It was okay about the same amount of time then suddenly got bad again. We did realize that both times correlated with my period so maybe that aggravated the condtion. I am going to try Concerta in a few days and will go back on birth control because I can't take the hormonal fluctuations, and my hair is falling out!

Let me know what you try and how it works out. Does it wax and wane with her hormones at all?

mrsmith
12-10-10, 08:24 PM
One word.
No.

If it is a condition without a cause, then it is not psychosomatic, as psychosomatic is a cause.
I think psychosomatic just means there is a psychological factor.

You can for example see the connection statistically without knowing the exact connection? (As I think they ca with the effects of Whiplash?)

PickMeUpRoadie
12-10-10, 10:42 PM
I think psychosomatic just means there is a psychological factor.

You can for example see the connection statistically without knowing the exact connection? (As I think they ca with the effects of Whiplash?)

Psychosomatic (psyche-mind, soma-body) literally means a condition of the body brought on by the mind/brain. A condition of no known origin is called idiopathic, although some people argue that that just means we didn't FIND the cause yet.

Illiterati
12-11-10, 01:21 AM
Having it myself, I am quite well aware that it exists, and I know other people (former in-laws) who have fibro as well.

And I have always understood psychosomatic to mean that it's all in your head. Not brain chemistry, but as in people who are hypochondriacs.

mrsmith
12-11-10, 01:11 PM
I think if your psychology makes you respond different to stress or different to pain, you can also say it is psychosomatic.
(Though I don't think it is well defined).

And also not like it is one condition with a unknown cause. Think it is more like a state you are in (Like a country in recession)

INaBOX
01-14-11, 11:52 PM
I was reading a little bit about this tonight because I was told I have it today .. and it's been said that fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, lupus, depression .. quite a long list.. is actually due to a bacteria infection. There's a type of therapy people have been trying with high success rates.. but I'm just learning about it myself.

PickMeUpRoadie
01-15-11, 01:21 AM
I was reading a little bit about this tonight because I was told I have it today .. and it's been said that fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, lupus, depression .. quite a long list.. is actually due to a bacteria infection. There's a type of therapy people have been trying with high success rates.. but I'm just learning about it myself.
Can we have a source please? Unless the source is a well-regarded, peer-reviewed medical or psych journal, such claims have no useful backing. A flashy website will get your attention, but don't you think this would have been all over the news if it is true?

I'm not trying to attack you, but rather push you towards more reputable sources of information.

Lunacie
01-15-11, 11:41 AM
Can we have a source please? Unless the source is a well-regarded, peer-reviewed medical or psych journal, such claims have no useful backing. A flashy website will get your attention, but don't you think this would have been all over the news if it is true?

I'm not trying to attack you, but rather push you towards more reputable sources of information.

Those of us who suffer from fibromyalgia are always interested in whatever theories are being proposed and studied, but we don't always have the time or energy to inspect each and every bit of research that is being undertaken. Some of the theories include genetic variations, changes to the nervous system and what causes them, activation of immune cells and what causes it.

NIAMS, the National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Diseases, (http://www.niams.nih.gov/Health_Info/Fibromyalgia/default.asp) is undertaking several lines of research into the problems that cause or accompany fibromyalgia.

This is a forum for support as well as dissemination of information. There is no definitive source for information on the cause of fibromyalgia at this time, so even if it were necessary to provide proof of a claim that was not made, it's not available. We're talking about theories at this point. As much as we wish there were more definitive answers, you won't get them by demanding peer-reviewed data from someone who only recently learned she has fibromyalgia. I think your response was out of line.

INaBOX
01-15-11, 03:54 PM
Here's the website anyway. It seems to be a method people are trying that have positive results. I'm not recommending it nor am I saying this is the answer .. I'm simply forwarding a link I found last night and am wondering if anyone's heard of it and/or tried it. It's interesting at least.

Check it out and let me know what you think:
http://www.marshallprotocol.com/

Here's the dr himself:
http://www.trevormarshall.com/

Lunacie
01-15-11, 04:06 PM
Here's the website anyway. It seems to be a method people are trying that have positive results. I'm not recommending it nor am I saying this is the answer .. I'm simply forwarding a link I found last night and am wondering if anyone's heard of it and/or tried it. It's interesting at least.

Check it out and let me know what you think:
http://www.marshallprotocol.com/

Oh, I didn't realize you were talking about the Marshall Protocol. I have a friend who suffers from Chemical Injury Illness along with two of her three daughters, and they started this treatment about 3 years ago. Unfortunately we lost touch with each other (it was an internet friendship) so I don't know whether it proved helpful or not.

Anyway, the Marshall Protocol sounds like a real bugger, at least in the beginning, but for people like my friend who was completely housebound and could not be around any chemical odors at all, she figured sometimes things get darker before the dawn.

INaBOX
01-15-11, 04:09 PM
EDIT (sorry) they have a new website now:
http://curemyth1.org/

Fortune
05-30-11, 03:26 AM
I found this comprehensive article on fibromyalgia (http://listserv.nodak.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0704A&L=CO-CURE&P=R6222&I=-3) which, despite its texty ways, was published in the April 2007 issue of the Journal of Clinical Rheumatology. The paragraphs get a bit long, so that can be an issue.

It seems pretty solidly neurological, based in pain processing in the brain. Also, it lends itself to multiple hypersensitivities, not just chemical. The author rather extensively covers the possibility that fibromyalgia is psychosomatic and offers the conclusion that it is in fact, not (not that being psychosomatic would make it any less valid, as ulcers have also been considered psychosomatic).

Yes, I know. Old thread is old.

sarahsweets
05-30-11, 09:13 AM
I do not know much about FM or CFS so I wouldn't be able to say if its medical pyschosomantic or neurologial or pyschiatric. I was wondering if those with good medical knowledge might help me understand. I have 2 friends. One friend has FM and CFS she takes cymbalta and a huge slew of diferent narcotic pain medicine. The other friend takes cymbalata and some vitamin supplements. The first friends kind of balks at natural remedies of any kind and that's her perogative of course while the other friend wants nothing to do with pain meds. What role does narcotics play in the treatment for FM or CFS?

What I mean is, would pain medicine also "treat" or help with the possible pyschiatric portions of the condition? Like do narcotis help in a psycological sense or just purely a physical sense? Do they effect more than the pain recepters? What role does addiction play in the regular use of narcotics for a chronic condition?

Fortune
06-10-11, 02:24 AM
What I mean is, would pain medicine also "treat" or help with the possible pyschiatric portions of the condition? Like do narcotis help in a psycological sense or just purely a physical sense? Do they effect more than the pain recepters? What role does addiction play in the regular use of narcotics for a chronic condition?

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5627229_fibromyalgia-narcotic-pain-treatment.html

tudorose
06-12-13, 07:24 AM
I believe there is compelling evidence that fibromyalgia may be a psychosomatic disorder. Currently there is no scientific consensus as to a cause. It remains a medically unexplained syndrome that despite great efforts continues to elude us with regards to etiology.

The first-line treatments for fibromyalgia are psychiatric medications - tricyclic antidepressants and anticonvulsants. There are also two other psychiatric medications, Cymbalta, an SNRI, and Lyrica, an anticonvulsant. Neurontin (gabapentin) is a very common treatment, as is amitryptiline. All of these medications are neurologically active with no known effect in the rest of the body.

Many doctors are skeptical of the disorder entirely: because there is no known cause, it is difficult to diagnose the disorder. Diagnosis is done entirely on case history and current symptoms - symptoms which have no clear cause. In fact, one of the diagnostic criteria for fibromyalgia is that we don't know what is causing the pain. This in and of itself makes evidence-based practitioners skeptical of the validity of the diagnosis.

No genetic information can be obtained on the syndrome because we know of no physical causes, so we can't do trait analysis. For this reason it's virtually impossible to link the disorder to other disorders, as is being discussed in another thread.

There is no doubt that there exists an empirically validated syndrome referred to as fibromyalgia - I'm not questioning that. There is, however, some evidence that this disease is psychiatric in origin.

There is a problem in the central nervous system and how it processes pain. I see it as a 'wiring' problem.

The thing is it resembles some aspects of sensory processing disorder and almost everyone I know (in real life) with fibro has an autistic child so I do wonder if there are any links there too.

For me personally I have had so many factors that could have triggered this. Viral - epstein barr and RRV
Other - PTSD, being hit by a car whilst on bike,
with the final straw being a blood donation.

To be honest the first line of defence meds are a crock.

Anti-depressants are prescribed not because it's all in ones head but (in theory) because of the calming effect on the central nervous system (something to do with serotonin dampening pain signals). There seem to be very few people who this works for and most of the time the side effects outweigh any benefits.

The anticonvulsants are not for the brain but for the body. In theory to stop the pain - spasm - pain cycle. Not because it's all in one's head.

The current theories around treatment are worth **** and currently there is not a lot of help out there. More research is needed but if they're looking at this purely as a psychosomatic disorder it's no wonder that they haven't come up with any decent treatments.

Triggers for me are gluten, casein, chocolate, caffeine and citrus. Also overdoing it, being physically forced into uncomfortable positions (being squashed on a train) the cold weather and stress.

With only one psychological trigger which is probably a trigger for every condition on the planet I don't see this as a psychiatric condition, rather a condition involving the hardware of the body/brain. Also if this was psychosomatic then food wouldn't have such a profound detrimental affect on the condition.

I don't eat chocolate anymore. Can you imagine how hard that is??? The way I deal with it is that when I see chocolate I see pain. I've tested this many times and the results are the same. The pain starts in my fingers and then spreads and then I find it hard to walk and all my muscles end up in knots that takes my DH ages and ages to try massage out.

Drastic changes to diet are what I've ended up doing in the absence of any decent help from the medical profession.

Yes I'm frustrated!!!!!

Lunacie
06-12-13, 10:08 AM
Thank you for sharing what you're learning about fibromyalgia, Tudorose.

It makes sense to me that it may be related to sensory processing disorder.
Does having a grandchild dx with Autism count? Or maybe just that I'm
probably on the spectrum myself according to my Connor's test?

I had mono when I was 20, isn't mono related to Epstein Barr? I was in a
car crash and got whiplash when I was 21. Also damaged my left knee at
about the same age.

I'm scratching my head though because my symptoms are bad this week
even though I increased my dose of antidepressant last week and started
taking ibuprofen for tendonitis in my hand. Seems like those would lessen
the fibromyalgia pain and other issues, no?

Or is the inflamation from the tendonitis spreading and bringing back the
pain, etc?

fracturedstory
06-24-13, 02:47 AM
Psychosomatic usually refers to doctors being baffled about finding a neurological cause. So, according to some neurologists creativity is a psychosomatic process. I've not seen a lot of research on Todd's paralysis that happens after a seizure. It does make sense though. Your whole brain and body is recovering from the convulsions.

It seems like what scientists don't understand they don't believe in. Had they been physicists they wouldn't believe in 70% of all matter. So, theorizing is sometimes a good thing. We get to answer eventually.

I've gone through such severe stress that had led to some physical symptoms (not always pain) and doctors have no clue what causes it. We call them shut downs and I've had about 3. It's usually referred to as a nervous breakdown or hysteria. Our emotions can cause some dramatic changes in the body. So I doubt psychiatric processes are separate from neurological changes. Funny how we know how the brain is plastic now but many medical professionals seem to be stuck in a Copenhagen interpretation view of mind.

I had chronic fatigue syndrome from ages 13 to 20 following 4 long months with pneumonia. A change in diet and a regular exercise routine helped change things around.

As a neurologist who does research in epilepsy puts it 'psychosomatic doesn't make it any less serious.' Particularly for seizures. They just can't medicate those kinds.

Anyway, sorry for stealing the thread and not really talking about fibromyalgia but it does irritate me how people don't take certain disorders seriously. I can kind of relate about getting pain from cold weather or being in a position for too long. And the spreading to me almost sounds like epilepsy except the spreading is often tingling or myoclonic jerking.

Interesting how you can pick up on similarities in different disorders. Sensory sensitivity to pain is awful too. The neurons are actually overreactive which makes you experience the sense more intensely. When you dumb down the emotion (with meds) you're still sensitive but are not reacting to the sensitivity like you would without the meds.
When I'm dealing with severe period pains I find that when the pain begins to numb from muscle relaxants that the emotional pain will make me think I'm still experiencing the pain. I did read an article about how closely linked pain was to emotions and memory. All these processes are working with each other. Nothing is separate.

I even think mental illness can change the brain dramatically. I've had over a year with PTSD and I can't just will my way out it. I don't believe it anymore so now I'm cured. No. You have to work on yourself and this will take years to get your mind and brain back to where they once were.

Anyway, I think I've prattled on long enough.

I'm now finding the hidden cause to fibromyalgia to be quite of a challenge and it intrigues me.

And also sometimes my sensory sensitivity can spike or completely flip into hypoactive territory, i.e I can feel pain. It's very temporary these days. There's definitely some crazy neuro processes going on in my brain. I've got a mood disorder, epilepsy and a hormone disorder and they all cause some very interesting experiences for me. Experiencing pain could even be a form of synesthesia. I should stop now before my ideas get too wild.

Fortune
06-24-13, 03:07 AM
Regarding sensory sensitivity - it is a common part of fibromyalgia, not just sensitivity to pain.

As far as the causes of FMS go, I linked a paper in response #97 which goes into detail about possibilities.

tudorose
06-24-13, 04:51 AM
This article suggest a physical cause. I'm not sure what to make of it yet. Think more research needs to be done.

http://guardianlv.com/2013/06/fibromyalgia-mystery-finally-solved/

Fortune
06-24-13, 05:04 AM
Yeah, that article seems to fall prey to common science media failings.

Here's an article with more details:

http://www.intidyn.com/Newsroom/article-0009.html

And this appears to be the paper:

http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/80/1_MeetingAbstracts/S17.006

BACKGROUND: Fibromyalgia is characterized by chronic widespread pain, severe fatigue, sleep disturbances, cognitive dysfunction and other co-morbidities. The pathophysiology of fibromyalgia is unknown. Current therapies are marginally effective. Fibromyalgia research has focused on mechanisms of central sensitization; however, there are indications that peripheral ischemia may be sensitizing afferents in deep tissues. Since serotonergic/noradrenergic reuptake inhibitors can provide therapeutic benefit, we hypothesized that a fibromyalgia pathology might involve convergence of dense sympathetic, C and A-delta sensory innervation on arterioles and arteriole-venule shunts located deep in the dermis. Previous studies demonstrate that noradrenergic sympathetic terminals mediate vasoconstriction, whereas sensory terminals contribute to vasodilation by releasing the vasodilatory and pro-inflammatory peptides, calcitonin gene-related peptide, and substance P. The sympathetic innervation can inhibit the sensory innervation through an alpha 2 receptor mechanism.

DESIGN/METHODS: We used multi-molecular immunolabeling to evaluate the innervation in 3mm punch biopsies from glabrous palmar skin and upper thoracic back skin in 24 female fibromyalgia patients and 23 age-matched female control subjects.

RESULTS: The arteriole-venule shunts , which are only in the palmar skin, had excessive innervation in fibromyalgia patients consisting of abnormally high sensory to sympathetic proportions.

CONCLUSIONS: This arteriole-venule pathology may contribute to the severe pain and tenderness in the hands of fibromyalgia patients. Since sensory-mediated dilatation of the arteriole-venule shunt diverts blood flow from capillaries to conserve heat, the excessive imbalance os sensory innervation may be related to aggrevated fibromyalgia symptoms under cold conditions. Such peripheral neurovascular patholgy in the glabrous skin of fibromyalgia patients may result in wide-ranging ischemic effects contributing to symptoms of diffuse deep pain and fatigue.

I'm kind of dubious as it doesn't mention/address people with FMS who are sensitive to heat (like myself). However, it does look hopeful.

tudorose
06-24-13, 05:16 AM
I'm kind of dubious as it doesn't mention/address people with FMS who are sensitive to heat (like myself). However, it does look hopeful.

I thought it was a problem with both extremes of temperature and the inability to regulate it.

Fortune
06-24-13, 05:33 AM
I thought it was a problem with both extremes of temperature and the inability to regulate it.

It is. From what I've come across when trying to research it, some people are sensitive to cold, some to heat, and some to both. My mother and my niece are sensitive to cold. I'm sensitive to heat.

The study's focus on heat makes me wonder, but it's hardly a central thing. I think I sounded more doubtful in my last post than I actually am. if this turns out to be true, it's great news, and I am glad to see progress being made.