hi everyone!

i'm thinking of starting to read "a return to love" by marianne williamson. i've read it before (i read it about once a year - it's one of my absolute *favorite* books!;-), but this time i thought i'd try something different:
i think it'd be "cool" to not only read it, but read it "together" with someone, and then discuss what i (we) read!
:D
please pm me if you're interested in doing this - i think it could be a lot of fun, and *very* interesting/uplifting!
:D

Can you give us a short book review?
Cheers! Ian.

sure!
;-)

quoting off the back of the book:

" in 'a return to love', marianne williamson shares her insights into how the practical application of love every day can provide an answer to the problems that confront us, whether these are in our relationships, our careers or our health...and shows how by practicing love we can make our lives more peaceful, loving and fulfilling."

Sounds interesting. I might go for it. I certainly believe in the principle of love, and all its positive applications in overcoming obstacles in our complicated lives.

Jon

great!
:D
then just get the book (it's available in paperback), and...
no, wait - do you think we should wait a while and see if someone else wants to join our little book club?
:yin-yang:

do you think we should ask to be put in a private forum?

Sounds good, I will look for it. I just don't know how soon it will be that I can get to the book store.

okay!
:D

how about if we start june 14?

:yin-yang:

I'm going to search for it on ebooks!

June14th will be good for me as I am very busy up till the 13th!

:D

if monday's okay with you, i thought we'd start our little "book club" by reading the preface, introduction and chapter 1 "hell".
:D
is a chapter per week okay?
or maybe one week for a chapter, and then one week of discussion?
what do you think?

:yin-yang: :uhh: :D

I just got the book Gabriella, and am enjoying it. I had read a little about "A course in miracles" a long time ago. I'll be ready tomorrow as I already read the preface, and will read chapter one before sleep.

sounds great!
:D
(wow - we've just started our own little book club!)
:D :yin-yang:

I have always stated that I do not nessecarily believe in a higher power but I have always felt guided by love or have tried to be . So as I read, I realise love is the higher power, and that I have do have faith. Eventhough it is not faith in the way of "God has a plan for me" Yet I do have faith in the energy of love. And my life goes well because of it. I believe that I see things with love and approach them from a loving view most often. Occasionally I lose this focus and scream at my kid. The book is a great reminder to relax and love and to teach my child this simple miracle!

Yet I do have faith in the energy of love. And my life goes well because of it.
:cool:
yes, i feel this way too!
:)
when i (temporaraily) loose this faith (i e when "life" gets to be a little *too* much), i find that my life "stops" (i don't really know how to describe this, but when this happens, *nothing* i do seems to work) and it's not until i remind myself that "thy will be done", that things begin to fall back into place...

as i said earlier, i read this book at least once a year, and each time i find something new in it!
:D

hey jelly - r u ready for chapter 2?
:D
hope u r, cuz i am!
;)

Yes I have read a few or more chapters.

i have two favorites from this chapter:

1. "changes in life are always going to happen; they're part of the human experience. what we can change, however, is how we perceive them."

2. "whether we love, or close our hearts to love, is a mental choice we make, every moment of every day."

when i was a child, my father physically, mentally and psychologically abused me. i'll never forget how, when we were having dinner, he used to just sit and watch me, waiting for me to tip my glass of milk over, so he could laugh at me...
of course i *always* did, although i tried/concentrated hard *not* to do it, because i *knew* that was what he was waiting for...

he also physically, mentally and psychologically (and sexually) abused my mother, and therefor she didn't find the strength to get a divorce until i had turned 13.

after this, i have only seen my father a couple of times (i'll turn 37 in december).

i *hated* him for years!

after i was diagnosed with adhd and add with asperger syndrome traits two and a half years ago, i began thinking about what "things" were like for me growing up.

i've always known that i'm very much like my father: i *look* like him and i have his hot temper!

being diagnosed made me realise that i probably "got" at least *some* of my neuropsychiatric difficulties from him - i think he'd get a diagnosis somewhat like mine, were he to be tested...

he was born and raised in germany.
he was born in august of 1941. he never knew his father, because he died in 1945, he was a soldier in ww2.
he had a *hellish* childhood.

i've known about this for a very long time, but i've always felt that he was *very* selfish to let *his* lousy childhood *"infect"* *my* childhood...

a couple of months ago, my mom told me my father (who was treated for prostate cancer a couple of years ago) is suffering from bone cancer.

i was *very* surprised when i realised that - after the first thought of "YES! serves him right!" - the lasting feeling was/is "so???"

this may seem "coldhearted" and "out-of-sync" with "a return to love", but...
for *me*, it's a *gigantic* step towards who i want to be/AM!
to *me*, it's a sign of "acceptance"...

i'm on my way towards making peace with my past, and the fact that i wasn't diagnosed until i was 34 years old...

does any of this make any sense to you?
:confused:

Gabriella, I am not sure about your response to your abuser/fathers illness and am concerned I am way off base. I will say what I think you mean.
That you are feeling at peace in that you do not feel an big compassion for his problems or guilt that you should? If thats the case, I think that that is good.

Sounds like being as your dad didn't have a father figure he didn't have a model or good behavior or ungood to learn from. (Not meant as an excuse, just a circumstance of the cycle.

My mom lost her mom at an early age also, and as her father was kind yet silent not very physical, I feel she didn't have the cuddling/talking experience to pass on. As I was touch deprived and never recall hearing "I love you" from my parents.

This knowlege of the circumstances helped me to not take it personally. I give my son what I wanted. I think through my son I relish in the love he shows he feels from his Dad and I.

I appreciate these words of wisdom (I like the rest too)
"Without love, our actions are hysterical.
Without love, we have no wisdom."

I was talking to a friend today and said..
"Without creativity, intelligence seems useless."
It is a bit of a parallel on a smaller scale don't ya think?

Your first quote on change, reminds me of one of my favorite sayings
something like "The only thing in life we can count on is change"

Then the second quote you quoted is along the lines of taking full responsibility for your actions.
That was the most important step in my recovery from lifes bumps and bruises.

Just to realise that no matter what the situation, I have the power to change it.

Come to think about it everything I have read so far can be condensed down to just that. You can either Love/accept or be miserable. But it is important to read the message in many different formats.

To me just believing in our power to make things positive works.
And perhaps others find more comfort believing in a supeme being or force.
While I clearly feel that is intergrated within us or perhaps better said we are intergrated in the supreme force, we are all one. I feel the oneness more and more as I grow and grow.
Now it's your turn can you relate/understand my ramblings?

I am really over joyed with personal growth. I am presently working on acceptance. Which is funny as I feel it is a weakness in me. But I have been told by students and friends that they are comfortable with me as I am non-judgemental.
There must be a difference between accepting others ways of being. And to be non-judgemental. I have to think about it.

I appreciate these words of wisdom (I like the rest too)
"Without love, our actions are hysterical.
Without love, we have no wisdom."

I was talking to a friend today and said..
"Without creativity, intelligence seems useless."
It is a bit of a parallel on a smaller scale don't ya think?

wow! i *really* like that!
may i quote you on that one, and make it one of my favorite aphorisms?

Your first quote on change, reminds me of one of my favorite sayings
something like "The only thing in life we can count on is change"

melissa etheridge (one of my favorite singers/songwriters) has written a song called "change". the chorus ends "...the only thing that stays the same is change..."
:cool:

Then the second quote you quoted is along the lines of taking full responsibility for your actions.
That was the most important step in my recovery from lifes bumps and bruises.

Just to realise that no matter what the situation, I have the power to change it.

Come to think about it everything I have read so far can be condensed down to just that. You can either Love/accept or be miserable. But it is important to read the message in many different formats.

To me just believing in our power to make things positive works.
And perhaps others find more comfort believing in a supeme being or force.
While I clearly feel that is intergrated within us or perhaps better said we are intergrated in the supreme force, we are all one. I feel the oneness more and more as I grow and grow.

marianne writes in this book "once we trully understand that God's will is that we be happy, we no longer feel the need to aske for anything other than that God's will be done."

for people who don't believe in a "God", it must be *very* okay to replace the word/name "God" with the word/name "Love", don't you think?
it makes *total* sense to me, anyway...

Now it's your turn can you relate/understand my ramblings?
yes - *YES* i can both relate to and understand them, and i don't think they're "ramblings" at all!

I am really over joyed with personal growth. I am presently working on acceptance. Which is funny as I feel it is a weakness in me. But I have been told by students and friends that they are comfortable with me as I am non-judgemental.
There must be a difference between accepting others ways of being. And to be non-judgemental. I have to think about it.
here are *my* thoughts on this:
maybe acceptance/forgiving is something that we have have to work on on a *personal* level, whereas being non-judgemental is something we have to work on on an *interpersonal* level (i e in our relationships with other people)?
i don't know about *you*, but *i* find i have a *much* harder time accepting/forgiving *myself* than i have accepting/forgiving other people...

here are *my* thoughts on this:
maybe acceptance/forgiving is something that we have have to work on on a *personal* level, whereas being non-judgemental is something we have to work on on an *interpersonal* level (i e in our relationships with other people)?
i don't know about *you*, but *i* find i have a *much* harder time accepting/forgiving *myself* than i have accepting/forgiving other people...

I think your right, I think that it isn't about others, it is the mirror of my disowned traits that others remind me of. And it only happens with people I am intimately involved with or close family members.

So was I off target about your first post? :confused:

i don't feel guilty for my first thoughts of "Yes - serves him RIGHT!"
but i was/still am very "impressed" with myself that my *second* thought/feeling (and the one that's been with me ever since then) was "so???"

by hating him (as i did for *many* years), i let him continue to "infect" my life, although i haven't seen him in such a long time.
what "good" does it do me (i e what *bad* does it do *him*) if i spend my life hating someone who really doesn't care/doesn't even *know* about my hate?
it only fills *me* with negative energy (or rather: sucks energy out of me), and i'm finally at the point in my life's journey (spelling!) where i'm not going to let myself do that to myself anymore!

about a month ago i watched this tv program about a woman (she was either from australia or new zeeland) who had been mentally, physically, psychologically and sexually abused by her father for most of her childhood. he continued to have her locked up even after she became an adult, and she ended up becoming pregnant with his child. after *many* years, she finally managed to break free from him.

she said something which stuck in my mind, and - i think - helped *me* to realise *my* part in my non-existant relationship with my father:
"i wanted him dead - i wanted to kill him! but then i realised that if i *did* kill him, i'd be exactly like him - i'd be the kind of person i *don't* want to be... i'm *not* like him - i'm a *kind* person..."

i'm *not* a "hater"...
:yin-yang:

I agree with you completely. And am glad I was on track.
That is absolutly wonderful that you are moving on. Until you did he was still ruining your life.
Are you close with your mother? Does she understand what happened. If My questions bother you or re innapropiate I appologise.

The next chapter entitled "You" has so much stuff I would like to quote, like..

"Just as a sunbeam can't separate itself from the sun, and a wave cant separate itself from the ocean, we can't separate ourselves from one another. We are all part of a vast sea of love one indivisible divine mind."

Interesting that the last chapter mentions that freud defined neurosis as a separation of self. Makes perfect sense. My theory when I was very little and still is.. everything is alive, I believed as a toddler that being angry at anything, even a rock, implanted negative energy and the accumalation of the negative energy of the world could cause the scales to tip in a bad way. So I wanted to not contribute. The hard part was I didn't have kindred souls in my understanding of energy when I was so young. I see my son is similar in that he thinks so deep. Yet he is more childlike in that he doesn't carry the burden of the world on his shoulders.
When were abused I think we either become abusers ourselves or caretakers, or both.
I am a caretaker, but on the mend.

my mom...
well...
no, we're not close, and never have been...

*she* thinks we're close, though, and brags about how "nobody knows gabriela better than i do!" - *totally* unaware (i think - i *hope*!) of the fact that *"everyone"* knows me better than she does...

she's always *"known"* there was "something" "wrong" with me - that i wasn't/still am not like other children/(now adult) people...

she tried to get the doctors to take her worries about me seriously, but they never did, and i can only imagine the grief, frustration and anger this must have filled her with (in fact, i think she's *still* filled up with those feelings), and i don't blame her for finally "giving up" on me...

of course she *hasn't* "given up* on me - she's just handed over the relay stick (is that what it's called?) to *me* - now it's *my* turn to try to get the doctors to believe me (us), and since i now *finally* have found such a *wonderful* doctor, this is something that has made me stronger!

unfortunately she seems to think she didn't do such a very good job as a mother, because she seems to think (and now i'm "reveling" in one of the ANTs dr daniel amen mentioned in his book "healing add"!;-) that it's no coincidence that the network of people i've built around myself (a network of people whose input, knowledge, calm and wisdom i *very* much appreciate and benefit from - people who help me grow as a human being) to 100% consists of women - i think she feels *"threatened"* by this fact on some (possibly/hopefully) unconscious level...
i'm almost 100% sure she thinks i'm somehow trying to find a "replacement" mother...
:confused:
of course *she* had a lousy childhood too, and so she's "only" a scared/insecure child deep down, but *why* should that be *my* problem/something that *i* need to consider???

*why* do i feel that that's something i need to consider in my relationship with my mother???

during all those years i spent hating my father, i used to think that *he* was the *BAD* guy, and my mom the *GOOD* guy, but when the hate i felt for my father faded, i was left with having to deal with the feelings i had/have for my mother...

i suddenly realised that the feeling that crept into my head when i thought of her was "contempt"...
(this was almost *more* of a shock to me than when i realised i no longer "want" to hate my father!)

i actually thought she was selfish, weak and BAD for not having the guts to walk out of that dysfunctioning (*NON-functioning*) relationship/marriage *sooner* (i e when she was in the maternal ward giving birth to my younger brother, and she called my father's girldfriend to ask if *she* would ask him to please come join her in the maternal ward...), because if she'd walked away sooner, then *maybe*...

but, *NO* - *STOP*!

i'm finally starting to realise that a diet of "maybes" isn't going to do me any good, and so i'm trying to stop myself from allowing those to enter my thought system!

more on my mom later - i have to take my dog for a walk now!
:)

so, are *you* close to your parents?

Yes, in many ways and no in some. You and I have a lot of similarities in our lives.

I viewed my father as the "Bad guy" and tried to stand by my mother. Yet in return my mother decided I was the "Bad guy". And seemed to resent me. And decided who I was and labeled me a "Manipulator," among other hurtfull comments. I spent a lot of time expecting her one day to see me in a different light. I eventually made the choice to keep her in my life (via phone and mail, she lived many states away, I was about 16 and on my own.)I had two choices, divorce my mother or keep her, so instead of withdrawing from her as I was so hurt by her non acceptance for the conscious, caring person I really was. I decided to keep her as I wanted myfuture chldren to have a grandmother. I decided I had to stop setting myself up for her disapproval, no expectations, to just accept she would never know/love the real Jellybean.

About 10 years later I ended telling her (during one of my rare visits) my pain and dealings with it. Then for the first time, she admitted many of her foibles where I was concerned. Her mistake to let me decide I didn't want to be cuddled and touched. She admitted to feeling hurt and rejected by me when I was a baby. (consequently I became extremely over independant behaving by age 3) Anyway her admittance of her mistakes was very freeing for me. As in the past she would say.."oh come on now, you know how you are." That pretty much was the end of the discussion.

On a deeper level I have always felt kindred with her (but I feel like that about most humans) She once told me she never felt a bond with me when I was born and didn't love me. I never forgot that. But I couldn't believe it fully.

But on the otherside of things she made sure we had what we needed, and music lessons. Going to great legnths to follow through although I didn't practice much or feel like going to the lesson. I knew she cared a lot, but resented that she didn't openly accept me for my goodness. I am a hugging type person. She is not.
We have music in common/teaching and an obsession with understanding the human mind also in common. I am spiritualy more open minded, she is athiest.
My Father wasn't emotionally available although he lived under the same roof. He wentto prison when I was 15 and thus my mom got out from under his rage. My mom choose to move out of the state with my little sister (7 years younger than I) I choose to be on my own. my brothers 2 and 4 years older left home about the same time. My oldest brother has never been heard from again. I havent seen him in 25 years. I was the last to speak with him. He basically had to divorce the family I think.
Thats almost what I did to save my soul.
From my and my mothers research weve concluded. Aspergers and adhd run rampid in our family tree on both sides, I think my sister is also bipolar-she wont get help.
(so far).

My Dad (dead by 60 from drug and alchohol abuse) seemed to be full blown aspergers, no empathy. I always thought him to be a narcisist as well as my oldest brother. But it was probably aspergers syndrome. My other brother almost 2 years older claims to recognize in himself aspie traits among other things.

Gabriela, are you an only child?

I decided I had to stop setting myself up for her disapproval, no expectations, to just accept she would never know/love the real Jellybean.

yeah, that's where i'm pretty much at right now, too...
i started taking concerta in mid-march, and haven't spoken to her since.
i don't think it's my taking concerta that made her give up on me - i think she just couldn't handle the fact that her firstborn suffers from depression, and has to be medicated for it...
guilt...shame...
(these are the feelings i'm guessing she's having)

my mom turned 60 on march 28.
before i started taking concerta, she'd told me that she was going to take me, my younger brother michael and his family (wife sara and their children nelly, 3½ years and hanna, 5 months) to mallorca, spain in august.
then "the cold war" began, and as i said earlier, we haven't spoken since...

i *did* get a postcard from her a few weeks ago, though (she lives about an hour's drive from where i live). she wrote: "hi gabriela! because of our "frosty" relationship, i've DECIDED we're not going to spend the holiday together this year. YOUR MOTHER."

this means that i'm not going to spain with them in august.
it's *okay* with me, because this way *she* is the one who's made the decision, and so she can't (like she's been able to in the past) blame *me* for being stubborn, childish or whatever she wants to call me...


He basically had to divorce the family I think.
Thats almost what I did to save my soul.

i know what you mean! the only one in my family i talk to is my grandmother . i call her about once a week.
she doesn't expect me to be anyone else than the person i am, and so we've always gotten along *great*!
:)


Gabriela, are you an only child?
no, i have a brother, michael, who's 2½ years younger than i am.
he's married, owns a house, has a steady job - in short, he's *all* the things i am *NOT*!
:rolleyes:

Hi Gabriela,
I am having trouble accessing this section of the forums and thus is whyI haven't been keeping up. I can only get to this thread through your posting history, weird huh?
I am too lazy to figure whats wrong.
I have been reading slower than usual, yet very much enjoying and relating to the book.
nearly everything I read I is along the lines ramblings throughout my life.
I am in the relationship section and I feel it is speaking directly to me as the lessons apply. I'd say it was perfect timing. (my reading the book right now.)
I thank you for showing me it.
It is very hard for me discuss it in order from section to section as I am impulsive/spontaneous.
But I plan to do so, so lets talk about the 3rd chapter now. I am going to review and I'll try to post tomorrow.
j9

I'd say it was perfect timing. (my reading the book right now.)
I thank you for showing me it.
you're welcome!
:)
It is very hard for me discuss it in order from section to section as I am impulsive/spontaneous.
But I plan to do so, so lets talk about the 3rd chapter now. impulsive/spontaneous?
you and me both!
:D
let's see - 3rd chapter...
hey - it's about *"you"*!
;)

the first thing i'd like to comment on is this:

"go for the light and darkness will disappear...we get in life that which we focus on."

if my mind's preoccupied with thoughts and feelings of *hate*, then there's *less* "space" for thoughts and feelings of "love", right?

was it mahatma ghandi who said "BE peace"?

but, it's so *very* hard to root out all those tiny negative words like "not", "never", "must", "have to" (okay - so *that* one's actually *two* words, but...;-) and so on, isn't it?

oh gawd...
i want to be *perfect*, but i'm all "god, give me patience *NOW*!"
:o
(and i *know* that this chapter *started* with the thought that we're all *already* perfect when we're born, but...)

any ideas on how to rid oneself of "all you've added on since"???

take care,

gabriela