View Full Version : Subluxation of the atlas and neck pain.


Kunga Dorji
01-02-10, 08:53 AM
<meta http-equiv="CONTENT-TYPE" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> <title></title> <meta name="GENERATOR" content="OpenOffice.org 3.1 (Unix)"> <style type="text/css"> <!-- @page { margin: 2cm } P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm } --> </style> Soon after starting treatment for ADHD I decided that coaching was all very well, but a smart person would choose to learn meta – organisation. In other words I chose to learn about attention, and learn about learning. I had started training in meditation.


What kept holding me up was my neck pain though. I had had this for so long I had almost forgotten about it. I did know that it would get set off when I worked too hard or when I got emotionally unsettled.In fact one of the issues I would have if confronting a difficult issue with
my daughter was the sure knowledge that I would end up with a days headache afterwards. Maintaining a good, stable meditation posture was very hard.


I had also forgotten the issue of the strange sensations that went with the neck pain. Areas of pins and needles- , neuralgia in the head, episodes of lightheadedness, and episodes of agitation. A curious, intermittent tinnitus. Odd pains in the frontal sinuses.Acutely cold fingertips or toes- sometimes involving one hand and the opposite foot. An absent sense of smell. None of this made any anatomical sense to me as a doctor. I didn't ask anyone- I did not think any conventional doctor would know and it seemed a given that chiropractic meant indefinite ongoing visits- expensive and hard to fit in. I also realise now that I never could stand still because of low level neck discomfort, and sitting had to be in a very upright position. Looking down at a table was almost always hard- one of the reasons that “stuff” would pile up undone and things would get lost. I would see agitated in queues- due to discomfort and often be cranky at the checkout at shops- pain again.




We went on holidays a couple of weeks ago. The neck pain was set off by the awful seat in the plane- and became worse on the last day. When on the last day I had a fight with my daughter I asked her why she was being so difficult she asked me why I was always angry with her. Then I finally got it. She was used to me being hypersensitive when I was in pain. She would read the pained expression on my face- and be ready for a fight. The inevitable would happen- and when I became upset my neck would go into spasm, all the headaches would start and everything would go downhill.
Then all the rest of the symptoms would set in.


This time we did something different. We had to fill in the day before our plane came in – so we hired a car and went up into the hills behind the Gold Coast. My neck was killing me and I felt I needed something more relaxing and entraining a calmer state than my usual selection of music on my IPOD. We dropped into a New- Agey sort of shop – all crystals and incense- looking for a mediation tape. Incidentally I picked up a brochure on something quite new to me. A treatment called AtlasPROFILAX. The claim is that a malrotated atlas ( first cervical vertebra) is very common in humans- and it causes back and neck pain, odd pins and needles and strange crawling sensations. Not only that but it chronically irritates the sympathetic nerves and causes a tendancy to very marked anxiety and anger responses. ( Since I have been doing relaxation exercises I have been aware of these sort of symptoms arising even when alone and all is calm- just from sitting reading too long.)
It may also interfere with venous drainage of the brainstem and upper spinal cord.


In my case I know it was associated with being unable to stand still, and being unsettled when made to do so, with being unable to tidy up- making my disorganisation worse, and with my misreading the emotional content of many situations, not to mention having a short fuse. I also know that whenever these events would happen my appetite would briefly surge. ( I think that the sympathetic stimulation was kicking off CRF and cortisol production- stimulating appetite – and weight gain). The neck pain was also destroying my sleep.


I had the Atlas Profilax treatment 2 days ago and cannot recall being so comfortable in years. I could feel that my atlas was out of place once I thought to look- and in fact the worst pain had always been at the back of the neck at the base of the skull.
The treatment is a form of massage and I would think very safe unless you had osteoporosis.
I felt the bone drop back into place and the range of movement I have in my neck is quite amazing-- even though I have been cautious. ( I note here that I have had many minor bumps to my rear bumper as I struggled to back out without hitting trees or posts).
The most amazing thing is the emotional stability- very little unsettles me in the last few days. I had had to think about applying relaxation treatment to many situations that just dont bother me. It was not cheap- but the practitioner clearly knew what she was doing. Her understanding of the anatomy and physiology was better than mine. Given that this is likely to be a long term success- I think the $250 was well worth it.


The other contributor to this problem was deteriorating eyesight making reading harder.


I worked today- and almost ½ of patients came in with awkward posture and neck pain. I am sure that this issue is very significant not only in ADHD but also hypertension, diabetes, obesity and osteoporosis. this is yet another point that the medical profession has missed in our professional arrogance and our eagerness to preserve our closed shop.


The bottom line is that neck pain markedly enhances my physical and emotional sensitivity- already high- and causes sleep deprivation. By Christmas Day a week ago i had had no sleep for 48 hours due to neck pain. The sound of my kids unwrapping their presents just about sent me into orbit. My sister in law sniping at her ADDish husband nearly caused me to commit murder.


I think that other people are developing procedures that do the same as what i had. I was unsure about mentioning the name- but there are good demo videos and testimonials on You Tube- so look for yourselves.

FrazzleDazzle
01-02-10, 11:36 AM
Thank you so much for sharing this, Barliman. I have worked for a chiropractor for 10 years, after first being a vERY reluctant skeptical patient. Chiropractors work on subluxations all through the spine, such as this, as well (and it's cheaper too....) I have never heard of the treatment you received, but my concern and hope is that your atlas stays put for you. However, as aware of the symptoms you are, you will know when they return. What kind of advice did you receive that it would stay put?

A word of warning though......How do these people know to claim that the atlas is out of place in the majority of humankind? Did they take x-rays of us all without our knowledge? (sorry). Look into reviews of this kind of treatment; some have come out for the worse (WAY worse).... Is it performed by practitioners who are fully trained in the spine and neurology, anatomy, physiology, etc. Find out what kind of education and training they receive prior to moving really important body parts around that are so close to our carotids, brain stem, nerves, and blood flow. Are they properly licensed to perform this service (there are a number of practitioners in trouble for this) Did they take films beforehand to see what else may be involved in the cervical area and do a history of injuries, strains, sprains to the area over your lifespan (even the birth process of pulling and twisting a pliable infant out into this world is enough to cause this kind of trauma) and post x-rays to ensure the atlas is in the proper position, to fully assess the safety and efficacy of this treatment for you?

Sorry, that was more than a word, but all in all, I'm happy it has helped you. The results seem sketchy to scary for some who have received this treatment on the little googling I just did.

leapofaith
01-02-10, 01:26 PM
Hi Barliman!!!

I cannot contain myself right now!!

I have the same problem and have been seeing a chiropractor for years. I thought this was a personal problem. The more I learn and now finding your post the more this makes sense to me.

If I don't go for treatment at least once a week, my life falls apart.
Again, I thought this was my problem, maybe hereditary. My sister and I both have ADHD and atlas subluxations. I choose to take medication now due to having kids and all the responsibility's that come with them. She has moved to a rural area of Georgia where life is slower and more kind. She chooses not to use medication for treatment. She does however find weekly adjustments to be very helpful in treating her ADHD. Along with life style changes.

Also, my step-son, he is profoundly effected by his ADHD. He also has a subluxation of his atlas. My chiropractor found this a few years ago. He is nine now. I haven't had him treated, I was a little reluctant. Messing with the spine of a child isn't something I take lightly. Now I think its time to make an appointment for him though.

I would really appreciate it if you could PM me with the web address you spoke of in your post. I am going to research this further.

I have a medical back round, I was a paramedic and fire fighter for 10 years. While medicine and the human body has ALWAYS been fascinating and an endless learning process. I have said many times I wish I could find a Doctor and Chiropractor who work together and respect each other for what they bring to the table. Maybe one day this will become common practice. I HOPE!!

Please keep me informed, ANY information you find on this subject would be wonderful. As well as anything you think. I will do the same!!
Take care and wishing you a in place atlas!!:D

FrazzleDazzle
01-02-10, 01:53 PM
I hope my post wasn't a downer. I all for correcting issues. The skeptic in me suggests to do research on practitioners and the method and look for complaints and side effects, as with any treatment, therapy.

With that all said....I think whatever method you choose (and there are several) to correct a known atlas subluxataion, has the potential to be positive. My whippet has epilepsy. I take her to my trusted chiropractor to get adjusted regularly. It always slips out especially when her and the other dog tussle about. I can always tell by her personality that it's out. I appreciated Barliman's description of the complaints and symptoms he has of the out-of-place atlas. It helps to know what she's going through in that respect when she's not feeling well. keeping her atlas in place keeps the seizures at bay, keeps her feeling good and she is back to being a happy dog, and when I can tell she is starting to show symptoms, I know I need to get her in; if I don't in time, sure enough a seizure comes along.

Just reiterates the importance of having everything in line for total health; physical and mental.

Kunga Dorji
01-02-10, 10:12 PM
Thank you so much for sharing this, Barliman. I have worked for a chiropractor for 10 years, after first being a vERY reluctant skeptical patient. Chiropractors work on subluxations all through the spine, such as this, as well (and it's cheaper too....) I have never heard of the treatment you received, but my concern and hope is that your atlas stays put for you. However, as aware of the symptoms you are, you will know when they return. What kind of advice did you receive that it would stay put?

A word of warning though......How do these people know to claim that the atlas is out of place in the majority of humankind? Did they take x-rays of us all without our knowledge? (sorry). Look into reviews of this kind of treatment; some have come out for the worse (WAY worse).... Is it performed by practitioners who are fully trained in the spine and neurology, anatomy, physiology, etc. Find out what kind of education and training they receive prior to moving really important body parts around that are so close to our carotids, brain stem, nerves, and blood flow. Are they properly licensed to perform this service (there are a number of practitioners in trouble for this) Did they take films beforehand to see what else may be involved in the cervical area and do a history of injuries, strains, sprains to the area over your lifespan (even the birth process of pulling and twisting a pliable infant out into this world is enough to cause this kind of trauma) and post x-rays to ensure the atlas is in the proper position, to fully assess the safety and efficacy of this treatment for you?

Sorry, that was more than a word, but all in all, I'm happy it has helped you. The results seem sketchy to scary for some who have received this treatment on the little googling I just did.

Hi Frazzle-
a couple of comments are worthwhile here
firstly in my work as a family physician - I see so many people who cannot sit straight up. I had been watching for the last month= when I saw the Dalai Lama and Alan Wallace at the Mind and its Potential conference. The association between an upright stable posture and high level attentive behaviour is clear cut. I just have to look at the photos of my kids playing as 2 year olds.

Since I became aware of atlas Profilax- I have looked at my old pateints- the neck deformity ( head pushed forwards and neck hyperextended to allow the patient to look forwards- is very common). It is also associated with the patients who are overweight , hypertensive, diabetic and have osteoporotic crush fractures in their spines.
In my case the sympathetic overreactivity was clear to see once I started my mindfulness training. I found that half the time when I was feeling wound up it was only due to neck pain- usually related to hours of computer work or tidying up.

If you know your physiology you would realise that the sympathetic overdrive would trigger Cortisol production- putting up blood pressure, stimulating appetite, disturbing sleep, and causing diabetes. A couple of days observations does not prove anything- but we have a serious researchable proposition there.

As for the person who did my neck- she was well qualified as a kinesiologist- with years of training, and heavily involved in treating kids with learning disabilities. Her knowledge of the anatomy was every bit as good as mine, and she warned me to make her stop if I felt pain at any time.
( Believe me- as a doctor there is no way I would let anyone do anything too heroic in that area- one slip - and you are dead).

Also speaking as a doctor again I was very clear that I could feel the asymmetry of the atlas bone and that pain on nodding was a key symptom.

I suspect that I had this as a child- and it may have settled spontaneously - given my emotional stability at age 18 or so.
In my early 20s I had a nasty accident in the surf- and that may be when the problem became active again. It seems to have been aggrevated in my 30s at some point.

I was told it usually will stay put- but not always. Fingers are crossed- but I would have it again if I got into that problem again.

I note that once ai started dexamphetamine my posture became much more upright and I certainly unloaded that joint more than when I as slouching. Also my appetite went berserk when the neck flared up over Christmas.

Kunga Dorji
01-03-10, 05:34 AM
I hope my post wasn't a downer. I all for correcting issues. The skeptic in me suggests to do research on practitioners and the method and look for complaints and side effects, as with any treatment, therapy.

With that all said....I think whatever method you choose (and there are several) to correct a known atlas subluxataion, has the potential to be positive. My whippet has epilepsy. I take her to my trusted chiropractor to get adjusted regularly. It always slips out especially when her and the other dog tussle about. I can always tell by her personality that it's out. I appreciated Barliman's description of the complaints and symptoms he has of the out-of-place atlas. It helps to know what she's going through in that respect when she's not feeling well. keeping her atlas in place keeps the seizures at bay, keeps her feeling good and she is back to being a happy dog, and when I can tell she is starting to show symptoms, I know I need to get her in; if I don't in time, sure enough a seizure comes along.

Just reiterates the importance of having everything in line for total health; physical and mental.

Frazzle Dazzle- your skepticism is appreciated- there is a lot of poor therapy out there and we all have to be cautious.
I was lucky enough to be able to read the reports with a doctors eye, and confident that I knew the limits of safe treatment.
I can't see much research about- maybe I can interest someone in doing it- but as far as I am concerned- I'm not getting any younger, and my brittle moods were impacting my children at a critical time in their development. It was time for me to make my decisions.

The real eye opener here was that my daughter misperceived my pain as meaning I was angry at her, and was ready for a fight any time my neck went off. I know now to verbalise my pain very clearly - she will even help round the house much more readily when she knows I am in trouble. In terms of family relationships this has been an enormous breakthrough.

Since it was done my mood has been so stable- I have not had to do a relaxation exercise to shed anxiety symptoms at any time- though I continue the basic daily exercise. It is just too cool.

FrazzleDazzle
01-03-10, 12:17 PM
Barliman, I had NO idea you were a physician! :-) I"m glad to know you went into this well-informed and well-researched. The more I am looking into this procedure, the more it looks like it has a very positive potential for many who try it. Next time I see my DC, I'm going ask him what he knows and thinks about it too. Very encouraging the difference it has made for you.

Kunga Dorji
01-04-10, 07:53 AM
Hi Frazzle Dazzle- I am sending along my wife and daughter to see the therapist on Friday. Both of them are obvious candidates. I think my son does not have it- and will observe a while longer. He is certainly a much calmer individual than the three of us.

The latest news is that I was at the local market yesterday and actually smelt the ripe fruit from about 10 metres away. My sense of smell has been virtually nil for years.
The issue of venous congestion of the brainstem seems the most likely cause here.

mADD mike
01-10-10, 02:26 PM
Okay preceding peeps, please explain this to me in terms that an idiot could understand, lol. This isn't something that I know much about, but I think that if I explain what issues I have with my neck, I may fit in here somewhere.

I have always had the head that is extended forward, rather than upright in my posture. My posture has always sucked. I sit in a very slumped position, or even lay, a lot. There are contributing factors, such as the fact that my coccyx at the bottom of my tailbone seems to be bad and I can't sit straight up with much weight on it, depending on the chair.

I have a LOT of neck pain, and TMJ as well. The muscles that run along the tops of my area between the shoulder and neck tend to get quite tight, and sometimes they lock up, causing my head to draw to one side or the other. In addition, my shoulder blades sometimes get out of place, feeling like they are just moved out somewhat. It is quite uncomfortable, and I spend a lot of my life just dealing with it. I get a lot of headaches when all of this happens too.

When I went for TMJ treatment, a doctor made a mouth guard that I wore all of the time. I would go back periodically and he would adjust it to move my jaw back in the right spot. Immediately after having it made, my neck locked up and my head was drawn to the right side (or maybe it is actually my right shoulder that is drawn to my head?). Anyway, he had a physical therapist on site and she was to do some measurements on me. Instead, she felt so sorry for me, that she worked on my neck/shoulder muscles by somehow pinching them in a way that caused them to release. It was awesome to have that basically fixed so quickly, rather than dealing with the agony for a week or so until things went back to "normal". She told me to do some sort of exercise where I basically bring my head back as far as it can, and then jut it forward, kind of like a chicken, lol. When I do, my neck pops and cracks and grinds.

I'm skeptical of chiropractors, because I went once for my neck because I was "stuck" once again. He took some x-rays and said that my head leaning forward all the time puts all of the strain on my muscles, rather than the bones that are supposed to support my head. He then did some excrutiating treatments involving heat that nearly burned my skin and some other crapola that left me in pain that was ten times worse by the time I left, and at a whopping cost of $150 or so. Next time I might as well just bang my head into a wall and save myself the cash.

That, in a nutshell, is my neck issue(s). From what I'm reading here, am I to understand that if I get that "fixed" somehow, then it might actually alleviate some of the ADD symptoms that I have, especially as it relates to irritability and such?

leapofaith
01-10-10, 04:14 PM
OMFG.........8^%*&)^*&(_)_&&*#%#

Mike, I just spent 45 minutes responding to you. I found tons of info for peeps who have limited medical knowledge...........I F'en erased IT ALL!!!!:mad:

Gotta get away from computer now..................
try again later........................

mADD mike
01-10-10, 04:24 PM
OMFG.........8^%*&)^*&(_)_&&*#%#

Mike, I just spent 45 minutes responding to you. I found tons of info for peeps who have limited medical knowledge...........I F'en erased IT ALL!!!!:mad:

Gotta get away from computer now..................
try again later........................

Oh, I understand that feeling. Ticks me off to do that, not that I ever have before.:o

I hope you can let it go (sometimes I can obsess) and enjoy your day!:)

It's the thought that counts.

Kunga Dorji
01-13-10, 08:20 AM
Okay preceding peeps, please explain this to me in terms that an idiot could understand, lol. This isn't something that I know much about, but I think that if I explain what issues I have with my neck, I may fit in here somewhere.

I have always had the head that is extended forward, rather than upright in my posture. My posture has always sucked. I sit in a very slumped position, or even lay, a lot. There are contributing factors, such as the fact that my coccyx at the bottom of my tailbone seems to be bad and I can't sit straight up with much weight on it, depending on the chair.

I have a LOT of neck pain, and TMJ as well. The muscles that run along the tops of my area between the shoulder and neck tend to get quite tight, and sometimes they lock up, causing my head to draw to one side or the other. In addition, my shoulder blades sometimes get out of place, feeling like they are just moved out somewhat. It is quite uncomfortable, and I spend a lot of my life just dealing with it. I get a lot of headaches when all of this happens too.

When I went for TMJ treatment, a doctor made a mouth guard that I wore all of the time. I would go back periodically and he would adjust it to move my jaw back in the right spot. Immediately after having it made, my neck locked up and my head was drawn to the right side (or maybe it is actually my right shoulder that is drawn to my head?). Anyway, he had a physical therapist on site and she was to do some measurements on me. Instead, she felt so sorry for me, that she worked on my neck/shoulder muscles by somehow pinching them in a way that caused them to release. It was awesome to have that basically fixed so quickly, rather than dealing with the agony for a week or so until things went back to "normal". She told me to do some sort of exercise where I basically bring my head back as far as it can, and then jut it forward, kind of like a chicken, lol. When I do, my neck pops and cracks and grinds.

I'm skeptical of chiropractors, because I went once for my neck because I was "stuck" once again. He took some x-rays and said that my head leaning forward all the time puts all of the strain on my muscles, rather than the bones that are supposed to support my head. He then did some excrutiating treatments involving heat that nearly burned my skin and some other crapola that left me in pain that was ten times worse by the time I left, and at a whopping cost of $150 or so. Next time I might as well just bang my head into a wall and save myself the cash.

That, in a nutshell, is my neck issue(s). From what I'm reading here, am I to understand that if I get that "fixed" somehow, then it might actually alleviate some of the ADD symptoms that I have, especially as it relates to irritability and such?

Broadly speaking yes- I have experienced a notable reduction in my irritability- and I think the argument that direct irritation of my sympathetic ganglia has been removed is a good one- it certainly feels like that is what has happened. I still have plenty of negative thought patterns to contend with- but they are all less compelling.

I have also read a suggestion from one kinesiology site that maintaining a level head is a task that takes considerable processing power- and if there is an issue with the atlas then this demand may contribute to the overloaded RAM type fogginess that bites us so often. Clearly this is not a sole cause- but I think should be considered as a possible contributing factor for some ADDErs.
look at these sites:
www.altasprofilax.ch
www.isyourheadonstraight.com
www.nucca.org (http://www.nucca.org)

It is clear that there is at least a group of chiropractors doing a technique very similar to the atlasprofilax treatment.

You need to do your own homework and assess the practitioner yourself. I was very happy with the anatomical knowledge and cautious approach of the practitioner I saw- and felt comfortable to proceed.
The second and third sites are chiropractic sites, the socond one in particular has good anatomic detail so is worth review. I have had some informal discussions with physiotherapists and doctors here in Melbourne- and there are definitely a few people thinking more about this issue- so I will keep on investigating.

wsmac
01-13-10, 12:57 PM
Although I don't really have anything to ad or ask here, I did just want to say thanks for this thread.

I wish I had read it several days ago, but it's good that I found it now.:D

doiadhd
05-24-10, 12:50 PM
I have read somewhere that there is evidence of 'forcipped-babies' going on to suffer the adhd symptoms....would this relate to the atlas-etc...?!

I have had numerous opportunities taken,towards moving my atlas....through work,plastered a lot of large ceilings...and knocks etc.

Glad to read you figured it out....wish you was my Doc ;)