View Full Version : Clonazepam and Amphetamines


Lundgren
03-11-10, 02:33 AM
I was originally diagnosed with an anxiety disorder and was prescribed Clonazepam to help cope with this. I then was diagnosed about a year later with ADD and have been on different amphetamines for about a year now.

The thing is I usually only use Amphetamines when I have to study or do school work, which is nine months out of the year. I do not take the Amphetamines regularly (which was ok'ed by my doctor), unless I have tasks which I need to focus on such as midterms, tests, review sessions, etc...

My problem has been that when I do start up on the Amphetamines again, my heart races at night and I cannot sleep. I have been taking Clonazepam which slows the heart rate and it seems to do the trick to put me to bed when I am on the Amphetamines.

What bothers me is I'm just wondering how safe this method really is, or if this is even a good idea. It's either this, fall behind in school, or no sleep.

APSJ
03-11-10, 11:02 AM
I take methylphenidate (Ritalin) and not amphetamines, but I've been taking them with clonazepam for around fifteen years with no ill effect, and none of my doctors has ever suggested one. They do, unfortunately, each make the other somewhat less effective for me.

Lundgren
03-11-10, 01:30 PM
Well that is reassuring. But is the nature in which I am using them bad?

APSJ
03-11-10, 08:50 PM
I also only take my stimulant medication when I have things to focus on(generally weekdays) and my clonazepam when I'm in or going to be in anxiety-provoking situations. I know that some people use medications like clonazepam to aid in sleep, but I don't personally. I do find that I need to take my last dose of ritalin some time before I plan to sleep or it will exacerbate my insomnia.

I'm not sure what, specifically, about the manner in which you're taking these medications troubles you. I don't see anything in what you described that's alarming to me, but I'm not a doctor, and if you're concerned you should definitely bring it up with your doctor.

Lundgren
03-16-10, 12:57 PM
What I'm concerned about is that I'm using the clonazepam to relieve my tachycardia from the amphetamines.

Can I somehow damage my heart from it constantly being rammed up and down?

APSJ
03-16-10, 01:04 PM
What I'm concerned about is that I'm using the clonazepam to relieve my tachycardia from the amphetamines.

Can I somehow damage my heart from it constantly being rammed up and down?

Oh, I didn't realize that you meant the racing hard was anything more than the standard accelerated heart rate that comes along with stimulants (at least for me). I really don't know, and that is definitely something you should talk to your doctor about.

Josh_kelly
03-16-10, 02:23 PM
instead of clonazepam and adderall
try dexedrine

its adderall minus anxiety and increased heart rate (or low levels compare to adderall)

I was put on clonazepam (0.5mg) for one month while on adderall. needed to increase adderall dose but was perfect for me. focus without anxiety which made more comfortable instead of OCDing on small stuff that wasted heck of a time.

after two weeks on clonazepam i felt kinda apathetic, no emotions, no excitement. Just living.

After 4 weeks, I decided to stop taking it. so I cut my dose in half every every day.

What a hell, by the second day I felt like crap. depressed, cold sweats, anxiety up the roof, could not go out of my place for two weeks. never experienced that before.

Anyways, I will take it again for emergencies but not on daily bases. Can not imagine people being on 6 mg for 5 years or so after one month of (0.5 mg). But I understand that people have diff rent needs and klonopin is crucial for their lives.
I d rather be mildly anxious all my life
than numb on it extremely anxious without it.

ManInBlack
03-17-10, 03:34 PM
They used to prescribe tranquilizer/amphetamine combo pills from the 50's-80's. They work better when taken together...in the short term. You probably know this, but just to remind you: tranqulizers, even when taken in low doses (say 1mg of Klonopin per day) for enough time, are more physically addicting than opiates. In fact, only benzos, barbs, and alcohol have withdrawal symptoms than can kill people. Taking benzos (especially the stronger ones like Xanax and Klonopin) to counteract amphetamines can and will lead to addiction in the long term. Amphetamines aren't physically addicting, but you'll have to take more to combat the increasing doses of benzos. If you were taking the Adderall 12 months of the year and able to stop the Klonopin 3 months, that'd be fine. Eventually you'll have to stop taking Klonopin, unless you plan on taking it your whole life, and the longer you wait the more anxiety you'll have. See if you can get something that's not as stronger, such as Valium.

Tyboulder
03-18-10, 09:08 PM
ManInBlack, I think you are totally off base. I regret posting this without taking the time to list my reasoning (and I hope to later) but to say things such as " tranqulizers, even when taken in low doses (say 1mg of Klonopin per day) for enough time, are more physically addicting than opiates" is absolutely absurd.

ManInBlack
03-18-10, 11:32 PM
Maybe it came out wrong; I was referring to withdrawal symptoms. Only barbiturates are worse. Every medications effects are negatively correlated to their withdrawals. Amphetamines are the safest medications in those terms. Being groggy and tired for 4 days isn't that bad in comparison. Several years ago I was taking it everyday for less than two weeks, and even after that short amount of time stopping caused a huge amount of anxiety. Same thing when I stopped drinking completely a few months back after drinking almost daily for 2 years of college and a year after. Now I don't touch alcohol. My brother used to be prescribed Xanax+Adderall and that's why he stopped the Xanax. It's not a personal attack, but something to consider. It's strange they'll give people benzos daily for years and not tell them this. Guess there are benefits and risks to everything or we'd be walking instead of driving cars, lol.

ginniebean
03-18-10, 11:36 PM
ManInBlack, I think you are totally off base. I regret posting this without taking the time to list my reasoning (and I hope to later) but to say things such as " tranqulizers, even when taken in low doses (say 1mg of Klonopin per day) for enough time, are more physically addicting than opiates" is absolutely absurd.


No, it's not absurd, a family member has been on a low dose for two years, she's tried to taper off it twice, so far she can't take the withdrawl. Even in small doses it can be very very addictive.

Impromptu_DTour
03-19-10, 12:45 AM
ManInBlack, I think you are totally off base. I regret posting this without taking the time to list my reasoning (and I hope to later) but to say things such as " tranqulizers, even when taken in low doses (say 1mg of Klonopin per day) for enough time, are more physically addicting than opiates" is absolutely absurd.

No, it's not absurd, a family member has been on a low dose for two years, she's tried to taper off it twice, so far she can't take the withdrawl. Even in small doses it can be very very addictive.

Gunna have to throw in my 2's on this and concur.. it sounds alarming and completely unrealistic.. but MIB is quite right. i also have a family member whose been on (unfortunately) a variety of dosages of a variety of benzos and barbs, for most of a decade now, to help with an opiate addiction.. which worked, but it was almost impossible to kick the tranqs. You can run the risk of seizuring fatally if your not careful coming off the stuff.. we eventually had to take him and admit him to a psych ward at a hospital so he could get off of it in a monitored enviornment. He had to drop down TO a low dose before the hospital would admit him to chem detox him, it was simply too risky otherwise - so ya.. even a low dose done habitually can be critically dangerous in the long.

I_DTour

Impromptu_DTour
03-19-10, 12:57 AM
It's strange they'll give people benzos daily for years and not tell them this. Guess there are benefits and risks to everything or we'd be walking instead of driving cars, lol.

Tell me about it.. its like the doctors and psyds were getting off on the idea that they were in control of the noose around his neck. In many respects, if it wasnt for our own research, he would be dead today because they were just ****ing up his doses, and not researching what he was already on and considering any potentiating factors.

In response to the OP to get this thread back on track ;)

Its not uncomon for the "effect" of a benzo + an amphetamine to be a desired enviornment for a medication or combination of medications. But this is also why these 2 classes of drugs can be really tricky to work with.. because as desireable for the inattentive mind (or a mind lacking in dopamine and epinephrine and all that), to be sped up.. without being arbitrarilly sped up.. so the effect of benzos being used as a chemical shunt of sorts to offset the upper.. then you start getting into different classes of antipsychs, like agitators.. ect.

but then again all your doing is speedballing (coined from using a combination of coke and heroin), which can be straining on the body. I dont want to say that your going to drop dead of a stroke, or a burst valve.. im not confident that the doses your on put you in that risk group ;) but definately check in with your doctor and go over the symptoms, the strain cant be good, and even if just for comfort sake.

Adderall's helped me with an anxiety disorder on some levels.. but i also have to admit its made it worse more often than not, simply because of the obvious. You might consider that while coping with the anxiety disorder, the Amphetamine might be an issue to consider aswell.

Of course, im no doc, but just a thought.

I_DTour

Delboy31
03-19-10, 01:29 AM
Just letting you know that I've been on klonopin for years and I am without question addicted to it. For the past several months I have been taking adderall when I was finally diagnosed ADHD-I. I too have tackacardia and was born with aheart mumor, so I totally understand your concerns. The adderall when it's the right dosage for should be ok, just keep that klonopin close at hand...that's the way I've been dealing with it...once in a while I can feel it coming and immediately take an extra dosage of klonopin...that's what works for me...but you really should talk to your doc about it.

ManInBlack
03-19-10, 02:24 AM
My problem has been that when I do start up on the Amphetamines again, my heart races at night and I cannot sleep. I have been taking Clonazepam which slows the heart rate and it seems to do the trick to put me to bed when I am on the Amphetamines.

What bothers me is I'm just wondering how safe this method really is, or if this is even a good idea. It's either this, fall behind in school, or no sleep.

To directly answer your question: While nothing is safe or guaranteed in life, you can definitely influence things. Smoking a pack of cigarettes every day for 30 years does not mean you're going to die of lung cancer (the old "Well my grandfather smoked everyday and lived to be 102" rationale), but it sure increases that risk.

Getting off both of those medications, dealing with the source of your anxiety, and then going from there after a few months med-free would let you evaluate your best option. Stimulants are very hard to handle alone. Not only that, but your sleep quality will diminish as you're basically using chemicals to turn your body on and off.

This is an extreme case, but take Elvis Presley. He started with Dexedrine to keep awake, moved on to sleeping pills to get to bed, and then onto "anti-depressants" (amphetamine/barb combos) to balance that out, and then painkillers to get rid of the side effects. He died of a heart attack at 42. That happened to a lot of people back in the day and more recently to Michael Jackson.

Of course, you don't have complete and unrestricted access to the Physicians Desk Reference, but both of those medications cause symptoms requiring the use of the other and both cause tolerance building.

If not taking anything is not an option, see about Vyvanse and Xanax XR since they both last 8+ hours, or maybe Klonopin wafers for bed.

Josh_kelly
03-19-10, 06:48 AM
see if you can try seroquel at low doses. Its prescribed off label for insomnia and anxiety.

seroquel is not a benzo. I m my personal experience. Adderall significantly reduced quality and the number of hours I sleep. I take seroquel 4 hours before bed with cranberry juice. Seroquel does exactly the opposite to adderall effect on the brain. "de" re-uptake of dopamine and nor-epinephrine. Cranberry juice to acidify the urine and get rid of whats left over of adderall and its metabolites is my body.

I tried to supplement with magnesium, 5HTP. DHEA, l-tyrosine. I never noticed any improvements, if you are eating somewhere near right. You body should compensate for the deficiency if any from adderall use by taking it from food. Many would disagree. But that's my opinion as as a biochem student (not a doctor). Body adapts to changes and always maintains near perfect balance to keep you alive and well (hemostasis).


combination of cranberry juice helped me sleep much better, reduced anxiety and stress. And maybe helped to not have adderall tolerance. And maybe maybe reduced my with klonopin withdrawal. Seroquel reduced anxiety or knocks me out so I wont have anxiety if I was awake. 20 min after drinking diet cranberry juice I have to go to the bathroom so I can feel it working right away by acidifying the urine "flushing adderall down the toilet".


downside of seroquel is increased appetite and risk of diabetes. But I guess people on adderall need some help on that department since adderall is an appetite killer.

Usually its prescribed as a mood stabilizer for pipolar disorder at 200 mg. I take a 25 mg tablet.

It sucks that I have to take a drug to combat a side effect of another

but seroquel is not a benzo and not habit forming. If I dont take resoquel I will end up more stressed, anxious, tired. and have to keep increasing my adderall dose. Seroquel is expensive with no generic available. Try also, melatonin which is an OTC. Or the classic Trazadone.

By the way. If you think that you need to get off klonopin (if you need) some doctors have plans that very slowly substitute valium (a lighter benzo) and ritalin (I guess for depression and energy). Eventually stopping them all together. Its depends on your dosage and length of use. For example 12 months to get off completely for a person on Klopnopin (6 mg for 5 years).

APSJ
03-19-10, 09:53 AM
Just as a counterpoint here, I want to mention again that I've been taking clonazepam and methylphenidate for around fifteen years. I only take 0.5 mg of klonopin, and make sure to take breaks here and there, but when I've gone through periods where I take it every weekday for months, I don't notice any withdrawal on the weekends when I don't take it. I've also taken it every day for stretches of a few weeks, and when I stopped, the only withdrawal symptom was feeling somewhat more anxious than I would have normally.

Benzodiazapenes can be used safely, even long-term, at least in the dosage that I take. That said, they also do lose effectiveness, at least for me, if taken continuously, which is why I try to avoid it, and if you need to take it every day, it may not be the ideal medication for you.

Another possibility for the racing heart you described might be propranolol, which has, as far as I know, no addiction/tolerance potential. Again though, I would definitely explain the complete situation to your doctor.

hollywood
03-19-10, 09:58 AM
kind of an extreme example my friend. Elvis and Michael Jackson? I'm not all about using a drug for everything but sometimes they are called for.

Elvis certainly was not on a schedule and in every facet of his life he was inconsistent. First of all and I'm no expert he had a major problem with drinking and binge eating and his cholesterol levels were out of this world and that my friend probably directly had a big impact on how healthy his heart was. I don't think in anyway shape or form he lived a healthy life. He used painkillers first in conjunction with alcohol abuse daily! Not every once in awhile it was habitual for him. His sleep patterns and life schedule were completely variable which probably lead to more problems but he abused alcohol, abused pain killers, then was hooked on barbiturates and he was then rx'd stimulants but his stimulant use was not astronomic nor was he an addict. By and large his lifestyle and decisions he made daily were what did him in, not the combo of antidepressant and stimulants.

My friend that is not even a close comparison, rather it's extreme and you may prevent people from seeking adequate treatment when they are not abusive in nature like the two examples you just made.

Now considering Michael Jackson , are you kidding? The guy was on IV drugs just to knock him out daily from pain. That's ridiculous and hypocritical no matter how much cash you have no doctor should be doing that! His stimulant use was just to counter the heavy IV used sedatives he used to knock him out. Your comparison is like comparing eating an apple vs eating the food supply of U.S. Beef . Ridiculous. Not bashing you , but be realistic and by the way I am only on mono-therapy with stimulants so I'm not trying to be defensive of a situation which mirrors my own routine.

Additionally, I kind of take your back on one thing, tranquilizers should not be used for or to counter adhd stimulant side effects... I mean people if you are having side effects then titrate down your dose or at minimum check out somethink safer like lexapro or pristiq or tenex, any of these options would be a much healthier choice and non addicting vs benzos or tranquilizers... I don't know, I've never taken a tranquilizer.. I have one image in my mind of swimming in the ocean and shooting a shark with a tranquilizer gun to put him out... That being said some antidepressants should be pretty safe used in conjunction and I think they pretty much are, people get into trouble when adding addicting ( physically addicting ) drugs like barbs and other sedatives... Overall, bad choice.

Here's my advice , it's simple.. Be smarter than that. Use stimulants in ir doses that are smaller so you can better manage a dose. If you can't sleep ride it out and then the next day use smaller doses so you don't have the issue or this side effect may be temporary if your just starting. If your on adderall and can't sleep switch to ritalin. It's safer and won't affect your sleep cycles.. Dont be dumb when being smart is relatively easy.

ManInBlack
03-19-10, 03:32 PM
You're right, that was a very extreme example. I was just saying that up/down cycles can become harmful; those two people's problems were as big as their careers were. If it could scare anyone, sorry for posting it.

I agree; the recent popularity of time-released medications really confuses me. It forces people to either take, say, 30mg per day or nothing at all. That's why I've been a fan of 5mg tablets, since some days 15mgs works, whereas others 25 is more appropriate. IMO they are more for the convenience of parents and schools not having to give medication at lunch time. It's not that hard to take a pill every 4 or 5 hours nor does it interfere with my life.

Thanks for the response:)

Scarletta
03-21-10, 04:39 PM
Lundgren-

It's very common for psychiatrists who know what they are doing to prescribe both stimulants and benzos together.

I used to be on Ativan with Adderall, and later Klonopin with Adderall, later Klonopin with Ritalin, and now I am on Xanax with Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Lexapro, and Trazodone.

The Wellbutrin and Lexapro are for depression, additionally the Lexapro is for anxiety. The Xanax is for panic attacks primarily. Trazodone is to help me sleep. It is classified as an antidepressant but it also works for insomnia and panic disorder. Really, the research shows it makes most people drop off to sleep within an hour, so its effectiveness as a regular antidepressant is questionable!

Benzos can be VERY addicting, to those who abuse them. Very hard to quit.

But even WITHOUT abuse, they are drugs that make your body physically dependent upon them. Klonopin is an anticonvulsant, its primary purpose is to treat epilepsy and other seizures. It is also used for panic disorder, general anxiety, and restless leg syndrome. It is supposedly the strongest of the benzos, and has a very long halflife. Within about two weeks of taking your prescribed dose of a benzo daily, you WILL very probably experience withdrawal symptoms if you quit abruptly. Such as, nausea, shakiness, dizziness, and possible life-threatening seizures. that is why they NEVER say to quit them cold turkey. You must taper them off slowly.

Now if you are psychologically addicted, like the benzos give you a high, you need to get off them, but ONLY by tapering very slowly.

I myself have experienced no high or euphoria with any of the benzos. I do not feel them "kick in" or anything. All I know is if I feel a panic attack coming on, they will stop it, almost right away.

I asked my doctor to switch me to something else from Klonopin, though, because i was taking three 1.5 mg tabs a day (total of 4.5 mg a day). I was so used to it, it did not make me sleepy or tired or anything. BUT, I was wondering if it was just too strong for me and possibly interacting with my other medications.

Well, I was switched to Xanax, which has a much faster onset, and a shorter duration, and is weaker than Klonopin. This makes it a better choice for panic attacks for most people. However, my doctor said I could just stop the Klonopin right away and start Xanax.

Well, I went into physical withdrawal doing so. I started having rebound panic attacks that would only end if I took a lot of Xanax. I got over it, but it was obvious that switching from a very strong benzo to a lesser one cold turkey was enough to cause physical anxiety and discomfort. I now take 1 mg of Xanax a day, and it has been effective for me.

But benzos are NOT used to treat tachycardia, to bring down or up blood pressure, or to lessen a rapid pulse.

Probably the reason Klonopin seems to help your tachycardia is because tachycardia is one of the symptoms of an anxiety or panic attack, and Klon. is effective at stopping those attacks. So when you are not panicked or experiencing high anxiety, your heart slows down.

Adderall and all stimulants may cause panic attacks to develop in some people, even those who have never had one before starting the stimulant. This depends on the dose you are taking, the amount you take within a certain number of hours, your own body chemistry and natural tolerance, the tolerance you inevitably build up over time (which makes panic attacks less likely), the amount of sleep you get (little sleep totally exacerbates your nervous system, and taking stimulants on top of no sleep is enough to turn anybody into a panic disordered, racing heart, sweating, poor circulation (to the point of blue fingers and toes), sufferer! Also, poor nutrition and eating hardly any food, drinking coffee or taking a lot caffeine, all are bad.

Regardless, for some people, they can do everything right and take only small doses of stimulants, and they STILL with have high BP develop, tachycardia, panic, etc. Every person is different.

I would tell your doctor. He should be able to get to the bottom of what exactly is causing the tachycardia. If it's the stimulants directly, they probably will stop them. If you have an underlying cardiac problem, stimulants are contraindicated and cannot be taken.

BUT, if it is anxiety/panic that is causing the tachycardia, the doctor will likely keep you on Klonopin, or switch you to another short acting benzo. If that seems to work for you, and otherwise you are having a good response to the stimulants, then there'd be no reason to stop the stimulants.

Hope I am not too confusing...message me if you need any more info!

Nick
03-21-10, 10:24 PM
Scarletta, why do you think Xanax is weaker than klonopin? I am curious because everything I read from people says Xanax is stronger, and that most doctors prefer to prescribe klonopin because it is less addictive etc.

But, I think Xanax would be a hell of a lot easier to get off of than klonopin. The short half life has to help with that.

I've been taking klonopin for about a month, usually 1mg a day, skipped days here and there, but when I did not take it for three days, on the third day, I felt very weird, and when I took a klonopin, it relieved that feeling.

Then today, I started feeling kind of dizzy and weird in the head, and I felt something coming on, and I took a klonopin.

I think I have already become dependent on the stuff, and that worries me. I am thinking of tapering off ASAP. Since I haven't been on it that long, it should be easier to get off. Or at least, I am going to cut it down to .5mg when I take it. I think dependence is dose related as well, so maybe the smaller dose the better.

I think I might switch to Xanax.

I think klonopin is awesome and works very well, but I am also realizing that I don't think I want to be dependent on benzo's yet, especially when I don't absolutely have to be.

But really, I think klonopin is a GREAT medication, and I wish I would have had this stuff years ago.

ManInBlack
03-21-10, 11:05 PM
Scarletta, why do you think Xanax is weaker than klonopin? I am curious because everything I read from people says Xanax is stronger, and that most doctors prefer to prescribe klonopin because it is less addictive etc.

But, I think Xanax would be a hell of a lot easier to get off of than klonopin. The short half life has to help with that.

This may be incorrect, but I think the shorter half-life makes it more addicting. Alcohol is a very short-acting tranquilizer and nicotine is a very short-acting stimulant...etc.

Nick
03-21-10, 11:49 PM
The sorter half life makes it more addicting, but it's more of a temporary addiction, because you can wean yourself off it more quickly. But klonopin, is a long term, very organized withdrawal process supposedly.

Alcohol is great. Short acting, and not addictive in any way close to benzo's. At least in my experience.

I can drink like crazy, and not become addicted to it. I can develop a habit, and need it, but it's not an addiction, because I can then go without it with ease.

Scarletta
03-22-10, 12:11 AM
Well, here is a benzo equivalency chart from mental-health-today.com, found at:

http://www.mental-health-today.com/rx/benzo.htm

As you can see, they say .25 mg of Klonopin is equal to .5 mg of Xanax, which makes it twice as strong.

The time to peak levels for Xanax is 1-2 hours, whereas for Klonopin it is 1-4 hours.

The half-life of Xanax is 9-20 hours, and for Klonopin is 10-60 hours.

So Klonopin takes longer to work, making it less effective to immediately quell panic attacks than Xanax. It also has a much longer half-life than Xanax, which means if you skip a day or two, you won't go into withdrawals as readily as you would with Xanax, and that makes it less addictive.

(Although metabolism of these are different for everybody.)

This is just a generalization. but my doctors have told me they view Klonopin as the strongest benzo, and from my experience, Xanax is a lot weaker overall. The weakest one I've been on has been Ativan (lorazepam) and you can see why from the chart.

I knew it was a lot weaker. I went from Ativan to Klonopin with no problems. Then asked my doctor to switch me to something weaker. He prescribed Xanax. I stopped the Klono one day and the next started up with Xanax. For a few days I had rebound panic attacks and major anxiety, nausea, etc.

That's because going from a weaker one to a stronger one, there will be no withdrawal, and vice versa for going from a stronger one to a weaker one.

I also like the fact that Xanax has a quicker onset for panic attacks, and that it leaves my system faster. Tolerance is less likely to build that way, but again, you need to have daily doses and hardly skip a day to avoid withdrawal.

Klonopin, when I first started it, was very sedating and fatiguing. Quickly that all went away. But Xanax had no such effects for me. I could not feel a "kick in" with Klonopin after about a week. With Xanax I never felt one.

I also have no euphoria or "high" feelings with any of the b enzos I've been on. Certain people do. Thank God I don't feel anything, so I am not likely to become psychologically addicted...but not feeling anything doesn't mean it won't stop anxiety...it does, at least for me.

ManInBlack
03-22-10, 12:24 AM
Why is Valium so unpopular these days compared to Ativan, Xanax and Klonopin?

DJ Doors
04-05-10, 12:09 AM
I have to say I'm happy I found this thread. I just got a dual diagnosis with ADHD/anxiety and I was started on concerta for ADHD. However, while the concerta helps alleviate anxiety in terms of certain activities that require focus, I still have anxiety in certain social situations. My doctor said she'd rather not put me on 2 medications, however, if I was prescribed something to alleviate my short term anxiety that I encounter maybe 1-3 times a week it doesn't seem like it'd be an issue after seeing what everyone else has posted

Killface1981
06-29-10, 02:32 AM
Benzos are not as physically(or mentally)as addictive as opiates. However; coming off of them can kill you as you said. Just like alcohol or barbs.

In a way you are right, because opiates eventually lose their benefits and do nothing but make you crave more w/o relief. Benzos are something to which you get addicted, you had better have a plan. Either be prepared to be on them for life or "THINK" you need them forever....

But opiates actually make you SICK when not taking them, at times suicidal, and also destroy your personality when you stop taking them even though the opiates effed up your personality already.

Killface1981
06-29-10, 02:40 AM
Valium is worth more on the street(just like Dexedrine compared to Ritalin)... these drugs have stigmas attached to them. It's like how GHB was demonized with all of the date rape panic and a few deaths from drinking on it. Or how Ephedrine was blamed for 280 pound people who hadn't eaten, and were dehydrated dying while being outdoors in 98 degree heat. They were also on 4-6 times the amount that the bottle said to not exceed in a complete day. Tobacco and alcohol are the best examples of what the government cares about... two of the most addictive, and dangerous drugs are easily bought.

Ridgerunner
07-01-10, 07:59 AM
"Killface1981" I totally agree with you. "Valium" has a stigma, that goes back unfortunately, from a lot of "bad press" years ago, but still lingers. Examples:
"I'm Dancing As Fast As I Can" a 1981 movie starring Jill Clayborn, all about extreme pathalogical Valium addiction. There were US Senate hearings in the late 1970's in a attempt to first place No 1 selling Valium a C-IV, later a failed attempt to place Valium to a C-II status, a 1978 mega selling magazine article by "Playboy" advocating the popularity of "Valium, and other meds for recreational use, including Quaalude", Prior to 1975, I will testify, that I was never turned down ever, from a dozen different family M.D's including staff M.D's at the Univerisity of Georgia and th University of Miami, (Florida), it was handed out like M & M's candy for the anxious student, The M.D's that were conditioned to write the Valium scripts have died or retired, and been replaced by a new school of M.D's who remember the horror stories from some true abuse from yesteryear. When Xanax, overwhelmingly replaced Valium sales between 1983 to 1988, the M.D.'s got snowed by Upjohn pharma detail salespersons. I am a recovering addict from Xanax, 1994 thru 1996, from Valium (1971-81) and from Quaalude (1971 -81) and from opiates Talwin (1982) and Percocet (2008) and "Xanax was the worst withdrawal" very intense, you have to come off it gradually, undersupervision, I needed 90 days. 6mg to 0.

2nd worst withdrawal, was Rorer/Lemmon "Quaalude" the physical withdrawal is similar to oxycodone, intense, but as with opiates, it is all over in about 5 days for me, the Methaqualone addiction, psychogically, the craving lasted for years, if it were not banned worldwide, I'd had a slip by now. Xanax was so bad because, I had to lay down and count my breaths with deep breathing, so ward off a "Xanax created panic attack" terrifying, while trying to treat my ADHD with or without I/R Ritalin.

Regarding the extreme cases of Elvis Presley. IMHO I highly recommend the late 2009 release of "The King and Dr. Nick" by George Nichopoulos, M.D. (now 82) and with his medical license revoked since 1995. I was a Elvis fan, and still have as large a collection of his vinyl albums as anyone I have ever met. The book ISBN # 978-1-59555-171-9 has a entirely different perspective to most all Elvis books written, not sensationalism, but a sad story of two victims, IMHO. My keenest interst was the Bio-Science controverial report had to say about the Dr Davis verdict that Elvis died of a textbook case of heart attack" NO DOUBT HE HAD A LOT OF CONTROLLED MEDS IN HIS AUTOPSY REPORT, THE ONLY LEVEL OF MEDICATION THAT WAS CONSIDERABLY HIGH WAS METHAQUALONE, ( a concentration of 6.0 mcg/ml in his liver and kidney, and 6.4 mcg/ml has caused some fatal overdoses, from verified tissue distribution in the blood, but, BSL labs did no comparison tests. 2,400 mg of Quaalude has caused death from other autopsies, but some alcohol was usually present. The other drugs, too numerous to mention in this thread, were of relatively small percentages, but the interaction of the other well known addictive substances, even in small amounts, caused the stigma that he died directly from a drug overdose, (it certainly didn't help to have any of those meds in his body with all of the gravely serious overweight, cardiovascular problems, severe Colon issues, and other dx's that made this case such a media circus. I have overdosed on Quaaludes and alcohol, but survived, why? I don't know, but I did not have access to 8 time's 300 mg. of Quaalude (2,400 mg) to ingest, it was more like half that amount stretched out over 24 hours.

Thank god I have a Christian Psychiatrist, who is a certiified Addictionologist, who, is now monitoring my ADD and GAD with Dexedrine Spansule 15 mg. a little Adderall 10 mg I/R and Klonopin 4mg at bedtime, after 10 years use of 100 mg of Trazodone, and 10 mg Ambien every night for insomnia. I needed a change, but with 250 hours of psychotherapy and 2,500 12 step meetings, I just try to live one day at a time. I also have not touched alcohol in 25 years, and alcohol mixed with benzo's and or with amphetamines, are another world, and are truly especially dangerous to withdraw off of. Just my 2 cents worth.

oneup
07-04-10, 03:18 PM
Lundgren, regarding the side effects your experiencing with adderall, one thing you might want to try is taking the adderall on a more regular basis (same dose, daily). I experienced alot of the same side effects when I first started taking it over the first couple weeks--anxious, couldn't sleep, heart and blood pressure felt like they were going crazy, but these gradually disappeared after awhile, and instead I just felt really calm and focused after taking it. The downside though was I built up somewhat of a tolerance (I seemed to metabolize it faster), and to some degree a dependence in that I was less able to manage my ADHD issues after the adderall had worn off. This was only really an issue for me though when I needed to study late at night. My doc switched me to Nuvigil, which has less ups and downs than adderall and less side effects, but really doesn't work very well in improving my attention or focus. I think my doc likes to experiment a little too much.

Regarding clonazepam, I think this is a great medication, but based on what I've read, one needs to be careful taking it long term due to tolerance and dependence. I take 0.25 mg in the afternoon for anxiety attacks most days, but hope to stop it in a few months when I've dealt with the issues causing my anxiousness. I've also taken valium on occasion but that seemed to have more side effects for me (impaired driving, really tired). Only negative thing with clonazepam that I've noticed is I think it messes with my sleep cycle if I take it at night (one reason why I take it in the afternoon), and i think it might cause some rebound anxiety to some extent.

One word of caution--your probably already aware of this--but don't mix benzo's and alcohol! Or at least be very careful. Many famous people have died from this (and many non-famous peeps)

If you primarily need help getting to sleep there might be other better options to try. Benadryl is great in improving sleep and also lessens anxiety, and of course there are other Rxs you can try like other benzos, trazadone, or some of the SSRI type meds (although these cause dependence, side effects, and can cause other health problems as well). The long half life of clonazepam ( something like 14hours) makes it great for treating and preventing anxiety. I know it affects heart rate and blood pressure and other aspects of the autonomic system, but I think there are some rebound / withdrawal issues as well to be careful of, so make sure to work with your doc if you stop of course.

Also just wanted to chime in regarding comparing relative strengths of medications on a dose for dose basis. While 1 mg of clonazepam might be stronger than 1 mg of valium, clonazepam is usually prescribed at like 0.5mg or 1mg, whereas valium if I remember right is rx'd at 5-10mg, so valium's absolute strength would be higher than clonazepam's in terms of what you are actually putting into your body. The half life's are important to consider as well but this is more important regarding frequency of dose, and the reason you are taking it. Sometimes a stronger medication at a low dose will work for someone much better than a weaker medication at a high dose.

LifetimePI
07-20-10, 01:32 AM
ManInBlack, I think you are totally off base. I regret posting this without taking the time to list my reasoning (and I hope to later) but to say things such as " tranqulizers, even when taken in low doses (say 1mg of Klonopin per day) for enough time, are more physically addicting than opiates" is absolutely absurd.

Not absurd at all to me..

Opiates : VERY ADDICTING. Bad withdrawl but wont kill you (But feels like you are dying but you wont)

Benzos: Mildly Addicting but Strong Physical Addication(unlike opiates) And Withdrawl can KILL you by Seizure method.

So yes, opiates more addicting, but benzos are more dangerous.
All in all with supervision of a doctor, you wont have problems as he can substitute and wean you off of a drug with a higher half life than whatever your taking. But to each their own. Whats addicting to "Joe" is not to "Steve" etc and vice versa.

Source: DEA of the US Government .. Opiates usually c-2. benzo c-4.

sir_taps_alot
10-22-10, 08:58 PM
benzodiazepines are physically addictive. You can taper off them,takes awhile though. Abrupt cessation can result in rebound anxiety and severe insomnia or in rare cases seizure. Withdrawal is dose dependant. one benzo is not more potent than another per se, they have different onset and duration of action

elizadoo47
10-24-10, 08:44 PM
Question, then: my daughter started a course of Vyvanse 40 mg (which lasted too long, gave her insomnia and acne) and the doctor also gave her Klonopin 1 mg to sleep.

I thought this was wayyyy too much for a 17 year-old girl who weighs 110 pounds so I cut down her Vyvanse to 20 mg (still fairly effective, but still causing insomnia) and gave her the .5 mg of Klonopin. She was so groggy in the morning, I could not let her drive!

Anyway we switched her to Adderall 20 mg but it is is totally ineffective and we think causing acne. However, D wants the Klonopin .25 mg to sleep. I have been giving it to her for 2 weeks but she stopped taking the Adderall for 2 days now and I don't want her to continue taking the Klonopin, though she is anxious about sleeping and her mind races.

Is .25 mg too much? Unisom and Benadryl don't work, they wire her up.

sir_taps_alot
10-28-10, 03:42 AM
this is just my OPINION from my experience,so, please speak to your doc first. .25mg of clonazepam(klonipin) is the lowest dose possible, It is equivalent to 5mg of valium(diazepam). It is a long acting drug,meaning it "hangs around" in your system for longer than most benzos. Ask why your doc prefers this over shorter acting benzos like ativan(lorazepam)...he may have good reason. Shorter acting drugs would have a similar effect and SOMETIMES do not have the side effect of being sleepy in the a.m because most of the drug has cleared your sytem. An alternative would be to ask about a drug called zoplicone. It is a "lighter" drug,so to speak, from the hypnotic class (less addiciton potential,but,that could be argued). It is short acting and is rather effective for sleep. It's very important for those with adhd to get adequate sleep (look up sleep deprivation symptoms,they are very similar to adhd symptoms). If someone with adhd isn't sleeping enough,adhd meds will have decreased effect as they are now fighting adhd and sleep deprivation combined.As for the adderal and vyvanse..I can't say anything abou the acne your daughter is experiencing, any side effect is possible,but, as for the proper dose of those meds, I would say it may be dependant on first getting her sleep adjusted successfully,and then looking at the right adhd meds. Again,just my opinion.

Unisom and benadryl are the same drug---diphenahydramine

den4
10-28-10, 05:16 AM
to the OP: that's a good question i want to ask a doctor as well.

elixir1
11-29-10, 02:35 AM
yeah, i remember those (well, reading about them as i wasn't alive at the time). Dexamyl (half dexedrine, half amobarbital) and Desbutal- half methamphetamine HCl (Desoxyn) and half pentobarbital (Nembutal). The funny thing is they were originally prescribed for depression, the last thing they'd be prescribed for today!!

elixir1
11-29-10, 03:14 AM
Not absurd at all to me..

Opiates : VERY ADDICTING. Bad withdrawl but wont kill you (But feels like you are dying but you wont)

Benzos: Mildly Addicting but Strong Physical Addication(unlike opiates) And Withdrawl can KILL you by Seizure method.

So yes, opiates more addicting, but benzos are more dangerous.
All in all with supervision of a doctor, you wont have problems as he can substitute and wean you off of a drug with a higher half life than whatever your taking. But to each their own. Whats addicting to "Joe" is not to "Steve" etc and vice versa.

Source: DEA of the US Government .. Opiates usually c-2. benzo c-4.

This is double-absurd
Forgive me, but your data completely contradicts what you are saying. You say that "opiates are more addicting, but benzos are more dangerous" and right above it it says:

"Benzos: Mildly Addicting but Strong Physical Addication(unlike opiates) And Withdrawl can KILL you by Seizure method."

The phrase used makes no sense and says two opposite things about the same class of meds: "mildy addicting but Strong Physical Addication" [Addiction]

To me, this implies they (benzos) are more physically addictive (that is, your body becomes dependent on them and as mentioned, withdrawal from them could be fatal). Opioids, while physically dependent, rely on psychological addiction more so that benzos. (it really sucks coming off them but there is very little physical danger). Either way, I've been on, and withdrew from both, and can tell you that while opioid w/d is excruatingly painful and yes, you do feel like you're going to die and I literally wanted to, it doesn't compare to benzo withdrawal (8mg+ Ativan and 45mg Tranxene/day for six years). It is absolutely terrifying and the only substances that compare to it in are the other two drugs that act on GABA neurotransmitter: alcohol and barbiturates. (in terms of withdrawal) I personally think paranoia/psychosis brought about by crystal meth, bad trips by certain hallucinogens could be potentially worse.

Also, the schedule of a drug doesn't really indicate how dangerous it is (or addictive to an extent). There are several opioids (Stadol, for example) that is a C-IV and the benzo Rohypnol is a C-I. Barbiturates are C-III (mostly) yet have a very narrow therapeutic index and are easy to OD on whereas oxycodone, morphine, and other schedule 2 opioids aren't. Consider Heroin and marijuana placed in the same schedule. Nubain, a opioid agonist with antagonist properties, isn't even scheduled while the migraine pill, Midrin, is placed in C-IV because a portion of it metabolizes into chloral hydrate. Yet, Soma (a highly abused muscle relaxant taken with hydrocodone) is not scheduled yet metabolizes into the controlled substanced mepobromate or Miltown. I could go on.The DEA needs to restructure it's drug scheduling system, obviously, so that is hardly support for the opiate/benzo argument.

Also, as previously stated Valium is "taboo" due to its history which is why few docs prescribe it. The order of the most abused benzos is Xanax, Klonopin, Ativan, then Valium. SO it's "safer" replacements have surpassed it abuse. (though I'm sure it not being prescribed as much has a hand in it)

CJBBBBB
12-01-10, 09:45 AM
A big wow to that Elvis post. As much as I hate college and my job and would love something like Klonopin to held me relax... dying of a heart attack doesn't sound cool.

DennisSmith
12-24-10, 08:43 PM
instead of clonazepam and adderall
try dexedrine

its adderall minus anxiety and increased heart rate (or low levels compare to adderall)



Do you have any further information on why Dexedrine causes less anxiety than Adderall? I would like to ask my doctor about switching.

425runner
12-25-10, 09:09 PM
I did ask my doctor to switch me from Adderall to Dexedrine for the above mentioned reasons and others but he was very hesitant about it. I don't know why...is it more addicting or something? He kept saying that since I respond so well to the Adderall in terms of managing my ADD, actually getting things done etc., I should put up with the side effects (increased heart beat, anxiety) and stick with it.

If anyone can provide valid reasons, not anecdotal evidence, why Dex is superior to Adderall I'd appreciate it.

Naussicaa
12-27-10, 12:29 AM
I will tell you that Dexedrine is way worst for ADD. It is like very weak Adderall with no side effects, but I don't know what is a valid reason and not anecdotal evidence, since thats all I have.

Gonna have to say from what I see, opiates are worst to live without, most people off heroin I know are on subuxone, or methadone, while benzos aren't really that bad once you taper off.

hopehope
01-03-11, 10:42 PM
I have been on clonazepam for panic attacks since 2006.Then i was diagnosed with add oct 2010 I was on 0.5 twice a day once I started the adderall I found I was able to skip the morning dose I did that because taking both at the same time made a zombie.

So now I just take1 clonazepam and amitriptyline Iv'e been on that since 1989 for panic and sleep to many things going Thur my head. Surprised my doctor didn't catch the add,or me because my son was add when was 8years old,he also has panic attacks and i now on adderall.

So if it weren;t for the clonazepam and the amt. I wouldn't beable to sleep however what i have found when i take the adderall the way the doctor say which is 15mg in the morning and 10mg at noon I do get tired around 900pm sometimes early depending on the day so i guess my doctor wright.


Because I was taking it 15mg in the morning and the second one at 200pm and if i forgot then at 300pm so i hope the helps someone

DennisSmith
01-07-11, 03:57 PM
I did ask my doctor to switch me from Adderall to Dexedrine for the above mentioned reasons and others but he was very hesitant about it. I don't know why...is it more addicting or something? He kept saying that since I respond so well to the Adderall in terms of managing my ADD, actually getting things done etc., I should put up with the side effects (increased heart beat, anxiety) and stick with it.

If anyone can provide valid reasons, not anecdotal evidence, why Dex is superior to Adderall I'd appreciate it.

I've done a bit of research through the common channel - wikipedia

From what I've filtered of the information available to differentiate between Adderall and Dexedrine is the following.

Dexedrine is made from the Dextroamphetamine molecule,
"At low doses, levoamphetamine produces greater arousal than dextroamphetamine, acting primarily on norepinephrine. At higher doses, dextroamphetamine has stimulant properties that are three to four times as potent as those of levoamphetamine, and acts primarily on dopamine".

Adderall is made from a 50/50 combination of Dextroamphetamine and Levoamphetamine.
"Dextroamphetamine induces more euphoria, whereas levoamphetamine induces more depression. The overall greater potency of the dextro form to central actions suggests that this form may have a higher potential for abuse.[31]"



I am now getting kind of anecdotal. I've noticed that Adderall makes me feel a bit more tense than Dexedrine. The above information implies that L-Amphetamine stimulates noropenephrine moreso than dextroamphetamine.

So from what I gather, noropenephrine enduces more feelings of tension that give rise to restlessness and stress. Dopamine on the other hand is more rewarding in a pleasurable sense.

Since Adderall is relatively newer than Dexedrine, this might all imply that Adderall is marketed as a "safer" drug in that it contains another pair of molecules that make it harder to abuse. I can definitely say that I never take more Adderall than I should, because taking a double dose actually makes me really nervous. On the other hand, when I have taken dexedrine, there never been a time when taking an extra pill made me tense. On the contrary it actually always made me feel better and I never lost sleep over it.

In conclusion, the contrasting properties of L-Amphetamine to D-Amphetamine imply that L-Amphetamine (50% of Adderall) really puts a safety belt on the effects of D-Amphetamine.

Yellow
01-14-11, 11:45 AM
no, its not necessarily a good combo, once is an "upper" and one is a "downer" (like elvis example), but its also not going to kill you unless you abuse them and use them EVERYDAY without periodic breaks...use each med only when needed/prn. i am on the same combo, actually klonpin+dexedrine+abilify+zoloft+wellbutrin so its ok, just dont use them recreationally

425runner
01-14-11, 10:08 PM
I was originally dg. with anxiety and put on Klonopin 0.5 mg/twice a day but then finally dg. with ADD-PI and put on Adderall 10 then 20mg/day. The Adderall greatly reduced my need for the Klonopin, I only take a small dose when needed. Usually at night to help me sleep.

I think that ADD meds (stimulants) and a small dose of benzo like Klonopin is a great combination and safe in the long-run. Just my 2 cents ;)

den4
01-23-11, 06:13 AM
instead of clonazepam and adderall
try dexedrine

its adderall minus anxiety and increased heart rate (or low levels compare to adderall)

I was put on clonazepam (0.5mg) for one month while on adderall. needed to increase adderall dose but was perfect for me. focus without anxiety which made more comfortable instead of OCDing on small stuff that wasted heck of a time.

after two weeks on clonazepam i felt kinda apathetic, no emotions, no excitement. Just living.

After 4 weeks, I decided to stop taking it. so I cut my dose in half every every day.

What a hell, by the second day I felt like crap. depressed, cold sweats, anxiety up the roof, could not go out of my place for two weeks. never experienced that before.

Anyways, I will take it again for emergencies but not on daily bases. Can not imagine people being on 6 mg for 5 years or so after one month of (0.5 mg). But I understand that people have diff rent needs and klonopin is crucial for their lives.
I d rather be mildly anxious all my life
than numb on it extremely anxious without it.


Your anxiety must be milder than you think then. I'd rather be on it forever than be extremely anxious. It's hell for some people. But I agree 6mgs? I think that is a little too much klonopin.

davoidone
02-12-11, 04:24 PM
Hello All.

I currently take klonopin .5mg 3X a day and Vyvanse 70mg once a day.
As long as I keep to my schedule of dosing: Klonopin 7AM/12 Noon/5 PM and
Vyvanse at 9 or 9:30 AM I am fine. I do find from day to day the effects are
different such as being hyper-focused. But the combination of the two is not
an issue for me at all. I have been on this combination since Aug 2011. I was
only diagnosed with ADD/ADHD at age 43. When I believe I have had it all my
life and managed to get by on no meds and treating my anxiety with Alcohol
and smoking weed. This worked for many many years but caught up to me as
I did not stop drinking and was taking .5mg of Xananx 4X a day along with an
aniti-depressant ranging from Prozac,Paxil, Zoloft, Pristiq, Serzone Effexor.
Now with no alcohol klonopin and Vyvanse and Remeron at night I am a whole
new person. I am happier, get more done. Rarely have any panic or anxiety. I
lost over 50 lbs since I quit drinking. I am more focused and don't miss the
drinking at all. It's like everything in life.. It works for some and others it does
not work well or at all.