View Full Version : pesticides?


mike1w
05-17-10, 09:25 AM
I heard on the radio news this morning that medical study data suggests the presence of pesticides can affect the onset of ADD in children with said exposure. I know I used to run through cornfields when I was between ages 4 and 8. I wonder if that would apply to me. hmm...

Dizfriz
05-17-10, 10:47 AM
The study needs to be replicated and confirmed. What it indicates is that this needs to be studied.

Don't get too upset over one study of this type even good ones. We are talking about linkages here not causation.

A US News article seemed to put it in prospective best (some of the news reports were all over the place. Many of the good science news writers have been laid off)

At this point, though, there is no evidence that pesticide exposure can actually cause ADHD, stated the authors of a paper appearing in the June issue of Pediatrics.and

The findings, if replicated, may provide another clue into the causes of ADHD, a condition which affects three to seven percent of school-aged children, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and prevention. Note the term "if replicated". This is important to keep in mind when reading the articles.

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/brain-and-behavior/articles/2010/05/17/pesticides-on-produce-tied-to-adhd-in-children.html

So this is something that needs to be paid attention but not to take too far. It is not a bad idea to wash your fruit and vegetables in any case especially if you have young children.

Dizfriz

Sirrah
05-17-10, 11:41 AM
I grew up in a rural area and spent a lot of time in corn fields as well. :D

But then I have pretty every other thing that's been linked to causation, too. (mother smoked, drank, depressed, cord 'round the neck at birth etc etc) - which it was is anyones guess.

SB_UK
05-18-10, 08:24 AM
Rapidly coming to the conclusion that the entire 'chemical' industrial sector needs to be shut down.

Organic fresh self grown or local fruit/veg, clean water and a switch to information transfer (no chemicals involved) for entertainment.

~*~

I just can't work out how a safe level of exposure can be associated with any artificial chemical -
- perhaps so if we limit ourselves to whether an immediate, visible effect is elicited -

- however - what of the problems which develop after low level exposure for a prolonged period of time?
... ... and what if the problems are of variable expression (more on this below)?

There's no realistic way for the scientific/epidemiological study to identify these typesa' associations
- there are too many confounding factors.

The problem is amplified when one considers that the prevailing theory on acidosis (an overly acidic internal milieu through eating the 'wrong' sortsa' foods) can present itself differently from person to person -
dependent on their genetic background.

This type of association (variable disease expression) conditional on individual differences (genotype,epigenotype) - will be impossible to discern in the empirical study.

Sufficient numbers within one's dataset to achieve statistical significance won't be found.

~s (http://www.trans4mind.com/nutrition/pH.html) - first google hit - section entitled 'Health problems caused by acidosis' ~

Honestly - rapidly coming to the conclusion that the entire 'chemical' industrial sector needs to be shut down; there's just no way of knowing whether a chemical is safe - and we can live an optimal existence without taking this route.

Love academic chemistry - Hate any form of commercialization of chemistry ... ... commercialization of any product does rather bring out the animal (greed) in human beings.

Something goes wrong when people gain (personally,financially) from the success of a product; the individual's greed prevents his eyes from seeing the truth.

True to form - that's the cover story and main subject in today's New Scientist magazine (reference below).

Living in denial; our species appears to have placed all of its hopes on artificial chemical interventions which do little more than worsen our collective existence; of course the theory is attractive - to be able to pop a pill and magically gain some desirable quality ... ... ...

... ... the truth of the matter, however appears to be that the pill has other effects - often other variable effects which cannot be made out clearly - which cannot be documented to help arrest acceptance of the novel chemical procedure.

In the case of pesticides - a presumably significant increase in yield and cosmetic appeal of fruit and vegetables - however at the risk of mental disease; organophosphates/pesticides are also listed (on wikiP) as potentially causative in autism, also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism
Controversies surround other proposed environmental causes, such as heavy metals, pesticides or childhood vaccines.

Heavy metals, pesticides and childhood vaccines are all products of chemical manufacturing.

~s (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627606.200-living-in-denial-how-corporations-manufacture-doubt.html)~ Living in denial: How corporations manufacture doubt

Organic fresh self grown or local fruit/veg, clean water and a switch to information transfer (no chemicals involved) for entertainment.

The suggestion then that we're just not smart enough to define the safety of any mass produced artificial chemical; sure 'it' may work for the intended purpose - though at what cost.

Corporate profits aren't more important than human safety ... ... where there is no mechanism for proving safety in an artificial chemical
- I don't think
... ... actually, am pretty sure
- in pretty much the same way that if we dropped our species onto the moon - we'd all die
- an alien environment to the environment which we have developed (evolutionarily) in and to.

The argument I'm using is that as the most evolved structure on the planet
- that's man with mind
- that we're also the most sensitive to artificial chemicals also ... ...

... ... that there is no animal model for safety/toxicity because we're out there in our own special class -
which is all well and good until we take it upon ourselves to introduce a new range of chemical toxins into our environment -

wikiP/organophosphate
a potent neurotoxin in insects with known effects on man ... ...

what do we think we're playing at?

The mind and its ignorantly self-righteous God delusion.

doiadhd
05-18-10, 08:55 AM
I eat raw veg.....everyone has somethng to do with veg.

That is why they put this BS out there...

They need to stop putting this type of 'seedling',to bed.

And start coming out with the data/findings they recieve off of forums like this.

Pesticides.....there are 100,00000000 different films made on this story,it's the corn fields,it's the swamp....it's the......enourmous cult called Globalisaton and a family business called Globalisation.

Topic-I do not believes ths to be relivant,who's idea is it to place this shat on air.

Amtram
05-18-10, 09:16 AM
Well, from what I saw, they studied groups of kids and found that the ones with ADD had elevated levels of pesticides in their urine. But they also saw elevated levels of pesticide in the urine of the control group of non-ADD kids. Hmmm.

If the kids live in the same geographic area, and their parents shop for food in the same stores, then they're all going to have access to the same food with the same level of pesticides.

If the ADD parents are concerned about the possible negative effects of artificial colors and flavors on their kids, they're going to buy more fresh foods.

So if all the moms and dads are shopping at the same stores, but the ADD kids are getting more fresh fruits and vegetables. . .well, duh.

It's just like the study a couple of years ago that said ADD kids were more likely to become criminals. Did they go into prisons and ask all the prisoners if they'd been brought up to believe that they could never do anything right, would never amount to anything, and were stupid and lazy? Of course not. Ergo, it's the ADD that causes criminal behavior.

Again, duh.

If you see it on the nightly news, assume right from the beginning that it's spin put on science by people who don't understand science.

qinkin
06-01-10, 12:44 AM
YOU can't beat doubt as a corporate strategy - especially if your product is life-threatening when used as directed. These days we don't have to speculate as to whether industries have manufactured doubt. They have admitted it too many times

-->MONSTA (http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=6262083407501596844&ei=0WYFSrb4A5ih-AawpMWBBg&q=the+world+according+to+monsanto#)
the entirety

+mike1w, kid who had a kinda gross stigma on his leg, towards the last 15mins of it (b/c he had to walk through the soy bean field to sell his mother's tortillas.:(

<<<--SB**""Organic fresh self grown or local fruit/veg, clean water and a switch to information transfer (no chemicals involved) for entertainment.""

Top notch for starters, but still not enough b/c of the transgenic problems..I can't think of anything better, though...(may help, is "pulling out the freak transgenically contaminated plants where they stand," good and useful exercise) :confused:

qinkin
06-02-10, 01:51 PM
Hey Doi, ur kinda blabbing around..

I eat raw veg.....everyone has something to do with veg.Now, what is that meaning?

Anyone have anything more to say about it?

Moderators, you might as well, transplant this thread into the scientific discussions part..Cuzz there's a lot being discussed and its not NEWs.. haha, sorry mike..

Just a suggestion

:confused:

doiadhd
06-02-10, 02:31 PM
Hey Doi, ur kinda blabbing around..

Now, what is that meaning?

Anyone have anything more to say about it?

Moderators, you might as well, transplant this thread into the scientific discussions part..Cuzz I am such an un-funny guy,just trying to get a reaction off an unmedicated,proper adhder.....sorry mike..

Just a suggestion

:confused:

Haha i'm so funny:rolleyes:

Incase you do not know(i do),
I am un-medicated and find it hard to stay on topic this is probably the worst example of this.

Thank you for showing every one.(who you are)

Leave the jokes to the unmedicated !

qinkin
06-02-10, 04:07 PM
.. I like being made fun of, btw...u are giving effort, i admit, but your a newb at ADHD...I didn't want to judge you, man...why did you have to attack me?


I am un-medicated and find it hard to stay on topic this is probably the worst example of this.
Doiadhd man, don't seem to mind very much...I wrote this very long post on your behalf in the science section, but I just erased it...b/c on 2nd thought, you weren't currently being very considerate about my fellow members advice...or really your own.. so I figured you would just figure out, w/o my input.. (beings how there are 1000s of members on this site.

I can be crazier than you...trust me. But I don't have to talk about it, b/c I assume most people don't care for what I say, usually..

This summarizes a small portion of the post I never submitted:

Ur not urself cuz you smoke pot... (summarized edition)..Pot makes Attention Deficit quite worse....Get on meds, you ADDer!!! lol (not b/c I am, unless you consider me to be your role model)...You need exercise....ADD meds won't work unless you do stuff which makes the brain release dopamine..

I should've just posted it, but I didn't want to seem like a know it all, or a forum fiend....haha

Too much joking, and inconsideration, impulsiveness, will get you banned. (from experience)...consider that, consider them, consider me.. Or the door closes.

Have fun, but be safe as you can..

I'm curious about how you can take such liberties to assume things about me, as a newbie...Kmiller was the same way, he just came out of left field and assumed major authority about everything, he was medicated!..you're gonna get burned, DOIadhd..i don' think you can handle it, either.

I've said too much already,

doiadhd
06-02-10, 04:24 PM
I will not even read what tyou have to say little man.....here this is for you,and you are the kinda person i am refering to;

I think us unmediated should be given some leniency-to a degree,by other members.

Sometimes i feel as though i and a couple of others are the only ones here with severe adhd....and watching some others boast and try to make out hey are super clever is just fake and annoying...I am not including the members who are super clever,there are a lot hear.

Where are the adhd stories here....I could fill this forum up with stories a lot more than i do...I tell the tame stories as not to offend anyone.

I am for meds for un-meds for anything which would our brothers and sisters here happy as individuals and here as a whole working unit as the forums succeed in doing.

Can you that are medicated....see the pain that we are in,some of you have been diagnosed since school so we do not have the same baggage to hump off at every step of life.

I can see the problem and can tell you now,that socialising on here is just the same as socialising out there.

If i were to come on here un-medicated and say how great my life was

You would all hunt me down like a troll never to be seen again......


Actually how dare you call an un medicated adhder a TROLL...wtf : l

it is impulse control not waiting to jump you on a thread..

i am getting annoyed now so will stop....the annoyance is not who i am but it is part of me.
***********************
I've found the most descent members here....you are not one of them,goodbye ego-man

PedroDaGr8
06-24-10, 01:49 AM
As a scientist (a chemist to be exact, but I'll ignore the troll like blanket chemical industry hate), I must say, one must be VERY careful with interpreting linkage studies. Often times, linkage studies are not for public consumption per say. They are for the consumption of other scientists. They simply say A is statistically linked to B (and conversely B is linked to A) and maybe you other scientists will want to look deeper into this. Nothing is attributed to causation whatsoever.

For example, lets say the demonstrated a link between broken bones and ADD. Many non-scientists would look at this and say HEY! Broken bones can cause ADD. When in reality, the study just says these two disparate items are related. The real cause could be people with ADD are more likely to do risky things which cause broken bones. The statistical relationship does not change, but as you can see the implication is very different.

Amtram
06-24-10, 05:47 AM
i.e., correlation does not equal causation.

SB_UK
06-24-10, 11:31 AM
As a scientist ...

Take a look at Qinkin's video (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=889134&postcount=7) at the 3 seconds from 54 mins 54 seconds onwards.

As an academic?? scientist, who, presumably needs to acquire grants from a funding agency, you will understand the problem.

SB_UK
06-24-10, 12:53 PM
From the video

Insertion effects (mentioned in the potato and corn sections)
If we were going to throw a gene randomly into a genome, select plants which grow and then clonally expand the line -

(Note:similar argument being used here to the Rowett Institute guys in qinkin's video).

- wouldn't the most apparently successful strains (those with the most vigour) - be the clones which have lost cell cycle control?

IE the one's that just wanna' grow post- transgenesis.

In exactly the manner that in human disease research cell culture, the cells which're grown (eg HeLa cells) (most vigorous, simple to grow) are the cells which 'outshine' (outgrow) even their mutant comrades, from the disorganized cell mass which forms the tumour.

Wondering whether the clones which will be selected for, will be those in which cell cycle control is lost
- vigorous growth is seen ... ... ...

... ... ... and why exactly would that be a problem ?

From elsewhere on site - the evolutionary process appears to operate by taming virulent growth -

--- Suggestion ---

- the GM approach would (I guess) select in the opposite direction to natural selection.

EshkaronsEngine
06-24-10, 02:00 PM
I heard on the radio news this morning that medical study data suggests the presence of pesticides can affect the onset of ADD in children with said exposure. I know I used to run through cornfields when I was between ages 4 and 8. I wonder if that would apply to me. hmm...
I used to work in the corn fields in the summers when I was 10-13. I loved it.

SB_UK
06-24-10, 02:10 PM
This sort of idea - a plant (normal cell) to weed (cancerous cell) transition.

~s (http://www.ucsusa.org/food_and_agriculture/science_and_impacts/impacts_genetic_engineering/risks-of-genetic-engineering.html)~Increased Weediness
One way of thinking generally about the environmental harm that genetically engineered plants might do is to consider that they might become weeds.

SB_UK
06-25-10, 05:08 AM
Here's a better example from nature and a method which has been copied over into plant Genetic Manipulation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrobacterium_tumefaciens

Agrobacterium tumefaciens -> insertion of T-DNA [in]to areas of chromatin that are being actively transcribed, so that the T-DNA can integrate into the host genome. [ii] -> tumour Agrobacterium tumefaciens is the causal agent of crown gall disease (the formation of tumours) in over 140 species of dicot.So ... ...
Stage [i] represents the gene delivery procedure which is being used by the GM corporation.
Stage [ii] represents the selection for genetically altered clones.

I'm asking whether insertion (as above) will favour 'actively transcribed areas' (to be read as particularly important for cell cycle CONTROL), and

whether

and

even

moreso

- the screening process will, then, subsequently, represent a second round of selection for those genetically modified strains which are expressing the transgene most highly (presumably because they have been deposited, disrupting highly expressed genes [insertion effects into cell cycle CONTROL regions]).

~*~

That selection in Genetic Manipulation works in the opposite direction to Natural selection/selection by the plant breeder - in that 'virulence' (exactly as seen in Agrobacterium tumefaciens in nature) ... ...the causal agent of crown gall disease (the formation of tumours) in over 140 species of dicotis being selected for.

Increased Tumourigenesis (deregulating cell cycle control) 'd be a measure of increased success of Agrobacterium tumefaciens in nature - and would be selected for inadvertently - in the plant Genetic Manipulation experimental procedure.

I guess that there'd be a disastrous consequence if 'weedy' variants of a natural crop crossed with the natural crop itself -
wouldn't that yield F1 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/Agrobacterium%20tumefaciens%20is%20the%20causal%20 agent%20of%20crown%20gall%20disease%20%28the%20for mation%20of%20tumours%29%20in%20over%20140%20speci es%20of%20dicot.) crosses - particularly vigorous versions of the crop, itself, which'd easily outcompete the crop (because of their increased vigour) - and which'd be particularly challenging to eliminate.

In qinkin's video - the corn section particularly - the Mexican researchers showed us laboratory and field-based evidence that crosses do occur -
- and that the crosses which do occur are not normal, in an entirely bad (mutant) sense (the 3 ears of corn example in the video).

~*~

There aren't any attempts to map the actual differences in genome or developmental genomic expression patterns between the [I]wild-type and post-transgenesis mutant genome, are there?

Presumably the genomes are far too incompletely understood meaning that any such studies 'd cost too much money, money, money... ... ...

Money was rather the central theme in qinkin's video presentation.

The politician and lawyer aren't able to sweep aside safety concerns by legislation.

Legislation is a man-made 'creation' which natural science will, of course, not heed.

Abstraction layer separation required.

The mind belongs in the informational and not the 'real' world (of chemistry)
- the informational realm, where the mind can do no harm.

~*~

The 200 million years of development following on from the reptile - heralded the generation of the neocortex.

The reptile lives in the first person perspective (within the world of chemistry).
Man, however descent into an internal model of reality is special for our capacity to gain our stimulation from (ostensibly) - the informational realm.

Sure - we require a heated, insulated box with access to a couple of veggies - however these can all be generated within the bounds of environmental sustainability.

So ... ... the switch from predominantly taste/smell/autonomic system (reptilian brain)
->- to ->-
basal autonomic system - and to ears/eyes and mind (neocortex) - informational faculties.

One particularly nice digital picture, song, movie, book or vieo game can be used to nourish 5-10 billion people.
Thinking biblical parables here ... ... ...

The same cannot be said for anything 'real' world (chemical).

SB_UK
06-25-10, 05:46 AM
ooops 30 minute deadline missed

~*~

Here's a better example from nature and a method which has been copied over into plant Genetic Manipulation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrobacterium_tumefaciens

Agrobacterium tumefaciens -> insertion of T-DNA [in]to areas of chromatin that are being actively transcribed, so that the T-DNA can integrate into the host genome. [ii] -> tumour Agrobacterium tumefaciens is the causal agent of crown gall disease (the formation of tumours) in over 140 species of dicot.So ... ...
Stage [i] represents the gene delivery procedure which is being used by the GM corporation.
Stage [ii] represents the selection for genetically altered clones.

I'm asking whether insertion (as above) will favour 'actively transcribed areas' (to be read as particularly important for cell cycle CONTROL), and

whether

and

even

moreso

- the screening process will, then, subsequently, represent a second round of selection for those genetically modified strains which are expressing the transgene most highly (presumably because they have been deposited, disrupting highly expressed genes [insertion effects into cell cycle CONTROL regions]).

~*~

That selection in Genetic Manipulation works in the opposite direction to Natural selection/selection by the plant breeder - in that 'virulence' (exactly as seen in Agrobacterium tumefaciens in nature) ... ...the causal agent of crown gall disease (the formation of tumours) in over 140 species of dicotis being selected for.

Increased Tumourigenesis (deregulating cell cycle control) 'd be a measure of increased success of Agrobacterium tumefaciens in nature - and would be selected for inadvertently - in the plant Genetic Manipulation experimental procedure.

I guess that there'd be a disastrous consequence if 'weedy' variants of a natural crop crossed with the natural crop itself -
wouldn't that yield F1 (http://www.addforums.com/forums/Agrobacterium%20tumefaciens%20is%20the%20causal%20 agent%20of%20crown%20gall%20disease%20%28the%20for mation%20of%20tumours%29%20in%20over%20140%20speci es%20of%20dicot.) crosses - particularly vigorous versions of the crop, itself, which'd easily outcompete the crop (because of their increased vigour) - and which'd be particularly challenging to eliminate.

In qinkin's video - the corn section particularly - the Mexican researchers showed us laboratory and field-based evidence that crosses do occur -
- and that the crosses which do occur are not normal, in an entirely bad (mutant) sense (the 3 ears of corn example in the video).

~*~

There aren't any attempts to map the actual differences in genome or developmental genomic expression patterns between the [I]wild-type and post-transgenesis mutant genome, are there?

Presumably the genomes are far too incompletely understood meaning that any such studies 'd cost too much money, money, money... ... ...

Money was rather the central theme in qinkin's video presentation.

The politician and lawyer aren't able to sweep aside safety concerns with legislation.

Legislation is a man-made 'creation' which natural science will, of course, not heed.

Abstraction layer separation required.

The mind belongs in the informational and not the 'real' world (of chemistry)
- the informational realm, where the mind can do no harm.

~*~

The 200 million years of development following on from the reptile - heralded the generation of the neocortex.

The reptile lives in the first person perspective (within the world of chemistry).
Man, however descent into an internal model of reality is special for our capacity to gain our stimulation from (ostensibly) - the informational realm.

Sure - we require a heated, insulated cavebox with access to a couple of veggies - however these can all be generated within the bounds of environmental sustainability.

Dunno' - aren't houses just wood, clay and sand ?

So ... ... the switch from predominantly taste/smell/autonomic system (reptilian brain)
->- to ->-
basal autonomic system
--- and to --- ears/eyes and mind (neocortex) -
~informational~ faculties.

One particularly nice digital picture, song, movie, book or video game can be used to nourish 5-10 billion people ... ... and counting ... ...

Thinking biblical parables, here, involving bread, water, fish and wine ... ... ...

Trying to suggest that we're (the species) currently experiencing abstraction layer re-orientation - under the hood (the human mind) - a change, which from the external observer's perspective will look very much as though we're gaining freedom from dependence on physical level (real world, chemical) factors for our stimulation.

Asceticism - the digital nomad.
A very real species-level psychological change which'll necessitate a change in social behaviour.

One particularly nice digital picture, song, movie, book or video game can be used to nourish 5-10 billion people.The same cannot be said for anything 'real' world (chemical).

And all of that, prior to the Zen ('spiritual') state being achieved; a state in which the body/mind expresses no desires (addictions/cravings for neither 'real' world nor 'human informational' stimulation).
Freedom from desire - Freedom from these mortal (a metaphor for 'real' (chemical,reptilian brainset) world) coils.

Despite this statement of freedom from 'real world' or 'human informational' stimulation arising -
it is required to arise - implying that the precursor state (individuals becoming educated - developing their minds) -
implying that the precursor state is going to need some form of 'external' stimulation to help it along.

Since external informational stimulation is not limited - and we're living on a planet with a rapidly diminishing repository of raw materials - we have only one choice.

I guess we can look forward to the close to collapse in the biological (genetic manipulation), chemical (pesticides) and the manufacturing process (plastics) and the continued rise of information technologies.

PedroDaGr8
06-27-10, 01:48 PM
I am going to have to read through your posts a few times to figure out exactly what you are arguing. :D I will post my response in a bit.

qinkin
06-27-10, 04:43 PM
PedroDaGr8
Were you presenting an opposing view, or just emphasizing wise restraint for blanket-statement conclusions derived from limited info?

I think the information presented so far, has been ample, as opposed to limited.. Better safe than sorry, b/c every human life (at least) matters.

Every human brain, is about the equivalent to the most powerful supercomputers. .. I like to remind myself.

:)