View Full Version : How can ADD co-exist with Autism


EshkaronsEngine
06-17-10, 06:44 PM
I thought that a hallmark of having ADD was empathy and a hallmark of having Autism was no empathy. Could someone who has these 2 conditions please tell me their experience. I have a nephew who has Aspergers and I find we are both intellectual but as far as emotion goes we are at opposite ends.

Lunacie
06-17-10, 06:48 PM
I had not heard that having empathy was a hallmark of ADHD - but the thinking about Autistics not having empathy has been shifting to a theory that they are actually so sensitive they are overwhelmed by empathy and have to block it, either in large part or completely.

Not understanding social interactions doesn't mean they don't have empathy. They just don't know how to express their concern for others very easily. My youngest granddaughter has been diagnosed with High Functioning Autism and she is very empathic with people she's familiar with, strangers are of course more difficult to "read."

EshkaronsEngine
06-17-10, 06:50 PM
Thank u that helps out alot. I think maybe I was a bit Autistic then when I was younger and then when my mind matured it broke and I became ADD.:)

Lunacie
06-17-10, 07:04 PM
Thank u that helps out alot. I think maybe I was a bit Autistic then when I was younger and then when my mind matured it broke and I became ADD.:)

I think (my personal opinion only) that ADHD and Autism are all part of a pretty big spectrum of disorders, and that it's even possible that BiPolar and Tourette's may be related more than they are different.

However, you may be right. For a long time doctors believed that children "outgrew ADHD" - but they were just finding that certain life choices worked better than being in school - so maybe some children also "outgrow" Autism and what's left looks more like ADHD.

EshkaronsEngine
09-15-10, 05:39 PM
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/100915/health/us_children_autism

sarek
09-15-10, 06:20 PM
I agree with what Lunacie says. I feel very strongly that its an overload of input that drives AS sensory shutdown.

And I also subscribe to the spectrum notion. I think much depends on which parts of the brain are primarily affected, and that could easily be more than one part.
But the affecting mechanisms themselves may be very similar.

Lunacie
09-15-10, 06:38 PM
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/100915/health/us_children_autism

Interesting to see the hypothesis about contagious yawning being connected with empathy - but I'm sure the media will again use this to demonstrate that Autistic people lack empathy. Bah humbug.

Scooter77
09-16-10, 05:00 AM
I'm an adult with both, I have empathy but I have trouble expressing it appropriately. It's also dependent on the issue, if its something I can relate to then I have more empathy, if it's something I cant relate to..or I feel its due to the persons stupidity, ignorance, whatever...(yes, very judgemental of me and I'm working on that..)...then I find empathy and patience exceptionally difficult.

Kunga Dorji
09-16-10, 06:31 AM
I thought that a hallmark of having ADD was empathy and a hallmark of having Autism was no empathy. Could someone who has these 2 conditions please tell me their experience. I have a nephew who has Aspergers and I find we are both intellectual but as far as emotion goes we are at opposite ends.


I think that diagnostic confusion helps.

ADDers tend to retreat from the threatening and draw towards the rewarding more strongly than most others ( the threats and rewards being perceived more intensely). So if you have a smart, but highly sensitive attention difference person whose early experiences are with positive rewarding teachers ( and as we know everyone hates a teacher's pet) he will probably have abad time socially, and despite being naturally ADDish by nature will retreat into a bookish world until he plooks aspy-ish.

Add to that picture a stupid psychiatrist ( not an unusual type of psychiatrist to find) and a misdiagnosis emerges.

Also a highly sensitive person can be overloaded and retreat into a shut down state.

Well that is my take on it. I think it is well reasoned at least.

Lunacie
09-16-10, 10:16 AM
I'm an adult with both, I have empathy but I have trouble expressing it appropriately. It's also dependent on the issue, if its something I can relate to then I have more empathy, if it's something I cant relate to..or I feel its due to the persons stupidity, ignorance, whatever...(yes, very judgemental of me and I'm working on that..)...then I find empathy and patience exceptionally difficult.

What, are you inside my head? I've been working on the judgmental thing for over 20 years and I'm at least starting to get a handle on it. About time, I'm going to 60 soon.


I think that diagnostic confusion helps.

ADDers tend to retreat from the threatening and draw towards the rewarding more strongly than most others ( the threats and rewards being perceived more intensely). So if you have a smart, but highly sensitive attention difference person whose early experiences are with positive rewarding teachers ( and as we know everyone hates a teacher's pet) he will probably have abad time socially, and despite being naturally ADDish by nature will retreat into a bookish world until he plooks aspy-ish.

Add to that picture a stupid psychiatrist ( not an unusual type of psychiatrist to find) and a misdiagnosis emerges.

Also a highly sensitive person can be overloaded and retreat into a shut down state.

Well that is my take on it. I think it is well reasoned at least.

The bolded part is what I've been trying to say all along here and you just expressed it very simply and very well. Thanks.

Scooter77
09-17-10, 05:47 AM
Yeah same here, I quickly and easily get sensory overload and either shut down or explode!
I find people noise is the worst...it literally drives me mental...like a fly buzzing around in my head! Especially if I'm trying to study or concentrate.

JenSMP
09-24-10, 12:07 PM
My son is gifted and has ADHD with anxiety, and when I asked his doctor how in the world you differentiate all these disorders (ADHD, Asperger's, ODD, OCD, GAD, perfectionism, giftedness...) when so many of the symptoms overlap, her response was:

"I believe in the very near future, we're going to be using completely different terminology to describe all of these disorders. I believe they are all related on some sort of spectrum and likely include all of the autism spectrum disorders as well."

His doctor feels that at this point we are basically treating symptoms and probably shouldn't get too caught up in what we call it. She said if we try to narrow it down to one (or two, or a few) diagnoses we will likely be over-labeling and not end up with an accurate diagnosis anyway. Either way, we have to have some diagnosis to treat his symptoms, so for now it's ADHD, giftedness, and anxiety.

Makes sense to me. Oh, and I definitely agree with the idea that people with Asperger's empathize MORE, not less. Why would a person (or entire group of people) be hyper-sensitive to other sensory stimuli but hypo-sensitive to emotional stimuli? I've seen people with Asperger's completely avoid even hearing about a sad story, even when they didn't know the person involved. It's not because they can't relate; I think it's because they might have a hard time separating themselves from someone else's tragedy. Just an opinion.

Lunacie
09-24-10, 12:57 PM
JenSMP, thanks for sharing that. It's very interesting to hear that some of the medical people also share the opinion that all these disorders may be part of one spectrum.

We were pretty well satisfied with the diagnosis of PPD-NOS for my granddaughter, but it seemed like everyone (doctor, school, therapist, etc) needed a specific diagnosis to base treatment and accomodations on. The therapy she's gotten from the mental health association has been incredibly helpful in teacher her to identify her own emotions and feelings, along with the medication for her Anxiety she is doing so much better (most days).

The more I read about the overlap between symptoms, the more I'm surprised that she really doesn't seem to have any of the traits of ADHD.

EshkaronsEngine
09-24-10, 01:40 PM
For me it all comes down to mirror neurons. I read that Autistics do not have this system working probably. Mirror neurons allow you to feel what other people are feeling without actually being stimulated to feel. This is a watershed for me and since I have personal experience with Aspys and I know they cannot empathize with me. I don't think it helps people to deny their illness just because that may put them in a negative light. I love my nephew with Aspergers but he has real social challenges that must be addressed. If I were to say to him that you just related too much to me I would not be helping him by saying you just have to tone it down a bit. It would be better for me to explain in logical detail what I was feeling.

JenSMP
09-24-10, 02:58 PM
For me it all comes down to mirror neurons. I read that Autistics do not have this system working probably. Mirror neurons allow you to feel what other people are feeling without actually being stimulated to feel. This is a watershed for me and since I have personal experience with Aspys and I know they cannot empathize with me. I don't think it helps people to deny their illness just because that may put them in a negative light. I love my nephew with Aspergers but he has real social challenges that must be addressed. If I were to say to him that you just related too much to me I would not be helping him by saying you just have to tone it down a bit. It would be better for me to explain in logical detail what I was feeling.

I think the possibility exists that people with Asperger's do feel too much. That doesn't mean that it's acceptable to have inappropriate reactions or responses to others. I don't think anyone implied that the disorder doesn't exist or that all you have to do is tell someone to "tone it down a bit." Obviously, people with Asperger's have significant difficulties with relationships. I think we're just discussing the "why" of it, not denying that the difficulties exist.

Keep in mind, empathizing too much may be a product of avoiding the reality that bad things can happen to them too. Often, adults with Asperger's are thought to be self centered and concerned only with themselves. In other words, they do not appear to have concern for others or how their actions affect others.

If they appear to shut down in emotional situations, maybe it's because they are relating a negative situation to themselves so much they don't get to the point where they actually have concern for anyone else. Empathy and concern are two different things. Just because a person can feel the same hurt that someone else feels (and then some) when they put themselves in the other person's shoes, it doesn't mean they feel concern for that person. They are just recognizing what it feels like. I'm not an expert by any means, so please do not take offense, but maybe people with asperger's empathize but do not take their empathy to the next level of concern, sympathy.

Just theorizing, and definitely feel for anyone personally dealing with Asperger's or who has a loved one with Asperger's.

Crazygirl79
09-24-10, 04:44 PM
EshkaronsEngine: All I can say is go and educate yourself further my friend!!

Most textbooks that describe ASD are very outdated and they need to be re written, I'm on the very mild end of the spectrum and I'll tell from a personal point that I feel way too much empathy even for the worst of the worst in society, people with ASD express empathy and compassion differently to NT's and sometimes even differently to those who have ADD/ADHD alone.

Another thing stop listening to the media, for the most part they have no idea as to what they're talking about they are generally not professionals in the area of neurological, neurobiological or neuropsychiatric conditions and most probably don't have anyone in their families with these condition and they probably don't have them either. If you want to learn more you need to speak to a professional person who is up to date on any of the latest Autism studies.

Very often people with ADD/ADHD will also have an Autism Spectrum Disorder and it's commonly diagnosed at least here in Australia.

Selena:)

Thank u that helps out alot. I think maybe I was a bit Autistic then when I was younger and then when my mind matured it broke and I became ADD.:)

Crazygirl79
09-24-10, 04:45 PM
Lunacie, I believe you're correct on this one!! I'm aware that there been some speculation and studies done on this but obviously more needs to be done maybe??

Selena:)I think (my personal opinion only) that ADHD and Autism are all part of a pretty big spectrum of disorders, and that it's even possible that BiPolar and Tourette's may be related more than they are different.

However, you may be right. For a long time doctors believed that children "outgrew ADHD" - but they were just finding that certain life choices worked better than being in school - so maybe some children also "outgrow" Autism and what's left looks more like ADHD.

Lunacie
09-24-10, 07:04 PM
I think the possibility exists that people with Asperger's do feel too much. That doesn't mean that it's acceptable to have inappropriate reactions or responses to others. I don't think anyone implied that the disorder doesn't exist or that all you have to do is tell someone to "tone it down a bit." Obviously, people with Asperger's have significant difficulties with relationships. I think we're just discussing the "why" of it, not denying that the difficulties exist.

Keep in mind, empathizing too much may be a product of avoiding the reality that bad things can happen to them too. Often, adults with Asperger's are thought to be self centered and concerned only with themselves. In other words, they do not appear to have concern for others or how their actions affect others.

If they appear to shut down in emotional situations, maybe it's because they are relating a negative situation to themselves so much they don't get to the point where they actually have concern for anyone else. Empathy and concern are two different things. Just because a person can feel the same hurt that someone else feels (and then some) when they put themselves in the other person's shoes, it doesn't mean they feel concern for that person. They are just recognizing what it feels like. I'm not an expert by any means, so please do not take offense, but maybe people with asperger's empathize but do not take their empathy to the next level of concern, sympathy.

Just theorizing, and definitely feel for anyone personally dealing with Asperger's or who has a loved one with Asperger's.

I see it this way - those who are on the spectrum do indeed feel emotions and recognize those emotions in others, but have trouble expressing that recognition; i.e. having concern when the emotions are troublesome or celebrating for the person when emotions are happy.

From what I've read and seen and felt myself, it's the expression of those emotions that is difficult. If one has trouble expressing one's own emotions, how can one possibly express the recognition of other people's emotions?


EshkaronsEngine: All I can say is go and educate yourself further my friend!!

Most textbooks that describe ASD are very outdated and they need to be re written, I'm on the very mild end of the spectrum and I'll tell from a personal point that I feel way too much empathy even for the worst of the worst in society, people with ASD express empathy and compassion differently to NT's and sometimes even differently to those who have ADD/ADHD alone.

Another thing stop listening to the media, for the most part they have no idea as to what they're talking about they are generally not professionals in the area of neurological, neurobiological or neuropsychiatric conditions and most probably don't have anyone in their families with these condition and they probably don't have them either. If you want to learn more you need to speak to a professional person who is up to date on any of the latest Autism studies.

Very often people with ADD/ADHD will also have an Autism Spectrum Disorder and it's commonly diagnosed at least here in Australia.

Selena:)

Yes! It's often all or nothing. Especially with Asperger's. The person recognizes and shares an emotion and gets carried away - and everyone expresses horror because it's all just too much. So the Aspie stops showing that recognition of shared emotion because he doesn't want to be shamed.

Actually though, and I hope this doesn't seem nit-picky, people with Aspergers (or any ASD) are often diagnosed with ADHD as well as ASD. People with ADHD do tend to have various cormorbid issues, Asperger's is just one of them.

mimi'sdreaming
09-25-10, 01:20 PM
My son is gifted and has ADHD with anxiety, and when I asked his doctor how in the world you differentiate all these disorders (ADHD, Asperger's, ODD, OCD, GAD, perfectionism, giftedness...) when so many of the symptoms overlap, her response was:

"I believe in the very near future, we're going to be using completely different terminology to describe all of these disorders. I believe they are all related on some sort of spectrum and likely include all of the autism spectrum disorders as well."

His doctor feels that at this point we are basically treating symptoms and probably shouldn't get too caught up in what we call it. She said if we try to narrow it down to one (or two, or a few) diagnoses we will likely be over-labeling and not end up with an accurate diagnosis anyway. Either way, we have to have some diagnosis to treat his symptoms, so for now it's ADHD, giftedness, and anxiety.

Makes sense to me. Oh, and I definitely agree with the idea that people with Asperger's empathize MORE, not less. Why would a person (or entire group of people) be hyper-sensitive to other sensory stimuli but hypo-sensitive to emotional stimuli? I've seen people with Asperger's completely avoid even hearing about a sad story, even when they didn't know the person involved. It's not because they can't relate; I think it's because they might have a hard time separating themselves from someone else's tragedy. Just an opinion.

Excellent post!

I've been dealing with the same issues myself. My son't therapist thinks he might have very mild ASD (due to his social issues and getting stuck on something). The psych on the team doesn't think he's on the spectrum at all. Neither do his teachers. They all say his social issues stem from a lack of self conficence in a group setting and shyness.Talk about frustrating!

I started a thread awhile back about the ADHD-Autism connection. I think they are very close in many cases, especially with severe ADHD. Our therapist agrees with your doctor on just treating the symptoms. I'm more inclined to get to the root cause. That's one thing the autism community has done very well, IMO.

He's been on Zoloft for two months now. It's worked wonders for his anxiety and getting stuck on something!

It's all so confusing! :confused:

Imnapl
09-25-10, 09:13 PM
I'm more inclined to get to the root cause. That's one thing the autism community has done very well, IMO.What is it that the autism community has done very well?

ADHDTigger
09-25-10, 11:23 PM
What I hear Mimi saying is that the Autism community has made a strong effort to center to the root cause. How successful that effort has been is always open to debate, but I get her point. My nephew and niece are both ASD.

There has been speculation for many years that ADHD *might* be part of the autistic spectrum. Through research and my personal experience, I see where this is a compelling argument.

I test out as an Aspie. Whether or not that is valid will likely never be known as I choose to manage my ADHD first and foremost.

As I read the various opinions regarding the management and discussion of Autism, I feel compelled to place a reminder here- there are opinions regarding everything. Not every opinion is correct. Not every opinion is even valid. By the theory, we are all on the same team here. Asking for enlightenment should include presenting an understanding of what you would like to be given additional information about in an non confrontational manner.

Imnapl
09-26-10, 03:42 AM
What I hear Mimi saying is that the Autism community has made a strong effort to center to the root cause.Sorry, this is still incomplete. Do you mean the root cause of the Autism as in what caused the Autism?

Crazygirl79
09-26-10, 04:05 AM
Lunacie, in my experience with people with both ADHD/ADD and AS (myself included) is that the ADD/ADHD tends to tone down the severity of the AS and what I mean by that is that people with both tend not to be quiet so literal or rigid and they seem more on the ball so to speak.

Selena

Lunacie
09-26-10, 10:04 AM
Lunacie, in my experience with people with both ADHD/ADD and AS (myself included) is that the ADD/ADHD tends to tone down the severity of the AS and what I mean by that is that people with both tend not to be quiet so literal or rigid and they seem more on the ball so to speak.

Selena

Interesting. I don't believe I know anyone who has both ADHD and either AS or ASD - unless maybe it's myself.

When it comes to expressing emotions, I always figured it was because of my parents being uncomfortable when emotions were expressed - I was in my 50's before I considered that maybe what they were uncomfortable with was my overblown reactions. When I get upset my daughter mentions how much it's like when my granddaughter gets upset, and when my granddaughter gets upset my daughter says "That's how you look and sound when you're upset, Mom."

Over time I've gotten less rigid, I don't think I was ever as bad in that regard as my granddaughter, however she's had some therapy and is showing improvement even better than I have over a longer time-span but with no therapy.

JenSMP
09-26-10, 10:12 AM
Excellent post!

I've been dealing with the same issues myself. My son't therapist thinks he might have very mild ASD (due to his social issues and getting stuck on something). The psych on the team doesn't think he's on the spectrum at all. Neither do his teachers. They all say his social issues stem from a lack of self conficence in a group setting and shyness.Talk about frustrating!

I started a thread awhile back about the ADHD-Autism connection. I think they are very close in many cases, especially with severe ADHD. Our therapist agrees with your doctor on just treating the symptoms. I'm more inclined to get to the root cause. That's one thing the autism community has done very well, IMO.

He's been on Zoloft for two months now. It's worked wonders for his anxiety and getting stuck on something!

It's all so confusing! :confused:

I am very interested to know exactly how the zoloft is working. The 36mg Concerta helps my son with focus, and he is completing his school work. He's doing extremely well academically, but socially and emotionally he struggles. He actually has anxiety and emotional meltdowns at school related to perfectionism and frustration. This usually happens more with art projects or PE activities more than with academics. Also, when there is any kind of disagreement or conflict with another student (even something minor like cutting in line) he raises his voice and yells at the other kid. He thinks he's classroom rule enforcer, and to him it is unacceptable for people to break the rules without consequences. He takes things personally and overreacts to perceived "insults" from other kids. Sometimes I think his perception is a bit off in these instances, but mostly he just overreacts. I'm not sure what to do about this because no matter what we do, the meltdowns and loud outbursts do not seem to go away. Fortunately between the few meltdowns he has each day, he's a sweet, kind, social little boy, so the kids and his teacher get to know how he really is. Unfortunately, I'm afraid if we can't find a way to get this under control, he's bound to alienate himself as he gets older.

Anyway, we are considering adding an SSRI to address the anxiety and lack of emotional control. I just keep wondering if it's too early, what the long-term implications are of taking an anti-depressant, and whether or not it will help with the issues he is having. He's not depressed, but he definitely has anxiety.

Thanks for any info you can provide.

ADHDTigger
09-26-10, 11:44 AM
Sorry, this is still incomplete. Do you mean the root cause of the Autism as in what caused the Autism?

Thanks for asking this!

Yes, I believe that when some in the ASD community speak to the "root cause" they are talking about "what causes Autism". The consensus opinion seems to be genetics- which is a good message.

I think that some of the fuel in this has been to tease out a causal factor that is generally understandable and that counters the argument that childhood vaccination is the prime causal factor in autism.

Like ADHD, Autism is considered a spectrum whose foundation is genetic. At least, according to current thinking. That seems to be the primary message being put forth by both the scientific community as well as the various groups that support the ASD community.

If I'm still not getting this, please let me know.

mimi'sdreaming
09-27-10, 09:49 AM
I am very interested to know exactly how the zoloft is working. The 36mg Concerta helps my son with focus, and he is completing his school work. He's doing extremely well academically, but socially and emotionally he struggles. He actually has anxiety and emotional meltdowns at school related to perfectionism and frustration. This usually happens more with art projects or PE activities more than with academics. Also, when there is any kind of disagreement or conflict with another student (even something minor like cutting in line) he raises his voice and yells at the other kid. He thinks he's classroom rule enforcer, and to him it is unacceptable for people to break the rules without consequences. He takes things personally and overreacts to perceived "insults" from other kids. Sometimes I think his perception is a bit off in these instances, but mostly he just overreacts. I'm not sure what to do about this because no matter what we do, the meltdowns and loud outbursts do not seem to go away. Fortunately between the few meltdowns he has each day, he's a sweet, kind, social little boy, so the kids and his teacher get to know how he really is. Unfortunately, I'm afraid if we can't find a way to get this under control, he's bound to alienate himself as he gets older.

Anyway, we are considering adding an SSRI to address the anxiety and lack of emotional control. I just keep wondering if it's too early, what the long-term implications are of taking an anti-depressant, and whether or not it will help with the issues he is having. He's not depressed, but he definitely has anxiety.

Thanks for any info you can provide.

Hey Jen!

I did major research before putting my son on Zoloft. I had the same exact concerns that you do. One of the turning points for me was finding that studies have shown that SSRI's can actually create new brain cells while stress can kill them. I chose Zoloft( for my son's age) by researching a psychiatrist I respect. We started at 12.5 mg and have now titrated up to 25mg.

His main problem was anxiety (in a nutshell). It didn't get better over the summer, which surprised me. That's when I realized just how important structure is to this equation. I added Vyvanse after one month of Zoloft (which was about a week before school started back). I have been slowly titrating and he is now up to 30mg. His special ed tutor has noticed a world of difference in his anxiety at school as well! She's been with him since last year in kindergarten. He has an IEP for speech. Unlikyour son, he has struggled academically. That's been a major stressor for him.

In the end it all comes down to benefit vs. risk with any medication. I knew something had to be done to help him with his anxiety. We also talk about feeling anxious and "The Anxiety Monster". This has really helped and actually turns anxious situations into funny ones! Although since starting Zoloft, we haven't had to do it much at all. He's no longer afraid of thunder; for example.

One final thought on depression. It can present totally different in children. I now realize my son was depressed after our disasterous experience when he was first tested last December. He thought something was wrong with him.:(

Have you discussed SSRI use with your doctor?

mimi'sdreaming
09-27-10, 10:36 AM
I just wanted to add that a very dear friend of mine teaches AS children in North Carolina. She too says that it's a huge misconception that Aspies don't feel empathy. The biggest thing she sees is that her Aspie students have a hard time understanding another person's point of view.

mimi'sdreaming
09-27-10, 10:39 AM
Well said, Tig! :p

First let me say that I'm like a dog with a bone! I won't give up until I've exhausted every possible avenue to help my son. This most probably comes from the fact that he's an only child and his case is complicated.

I came across Dr. Kenneth Bock and his fabulous book "Healing the New Childhood Epidemics; Autism, ADHD, Asthma and Allergies". I first checked it out from the library, but ended up purchasing my own copy from Amazon. I loved his approach and the fact that it had all the tests I had been trying to piece together, starting with a good medical exam and looking at thyroid function. He also looks at (and very strongly believes in)the connectons of what he calls the 4-A disorders.

His solution is going to "The root of the problem". This includes looking at toxins, nutritional deficiencies, metabloic imbalances, genetic vulnerabilities and assaults on the immune and gastrointestinal systems. He also believes there are many misdiagnoses of the four.

Is this approach for everyone? No! There are countless children that have been helped by it, though. Many have not. It's just another avenue to explore (that happens to interest me greatly). In the end, it will be something I know I tried. I also know parents who've used this with great success.

IMHO, whether you're dealing with ADHD or Autism my theory is this..... "Genetics load the gun and the environment can (or cannot) pull the trigger.

mimi'sdreaming
09-27-10, 10:52 AM
Delete

Lunacie, in my experience with people with both ADHD/ADD and AS (myself included) is that the ADD/ADHD tends to tone down the severity of the AS and what I mean by that is that people with both tend not to be quiet so literal or rigid and they seem more on the ball so to speak.

Selena

This is a very interesting theory!

JenSMP
09-27-10, 03:50 PM
Hey Jen!

I did major research before putting my son on Zoloft. I had the same exact concerns that you do. One of the turning points for me was finding that studies have shown that SSRI's can actually create new brain cells while stress can kill them. I chose Zoloft( for my son's age) by researching a psychiatrist I respect. We started at 12.5 mg and have now titrated up to 25mg.

His main problem was anxiety (in a nutshell). It didn't get better over the summer, which surprised me. That's when I realized just how important structure is to this equation. I added Vyvanse after one month of Zoloft (which was about a week before school started back). I have been slowly titrating and he is now up to 30mg. His special ed tutor has noticed a world of difference in his anxiety at school as well! She's been with him since last year in kindergarten. He has an IEP for speech. Unlikyour son, he has struggled academically. That's been a major stressor for him.

In the end it all comes down to benefit vs. risk with any medication. I knew something had to be done to help him with his anxiety. We also talk about feeling anxious and "The Anxiety Monster". This has really helped and actually turns anxious situations into funny ones! Although since starting Zoloft, we haven't had to do it much at all. He's no longer afraid of thunder; for example.

One final thought on depression. It can present totally different in children. I now realize my son was depressed after our disasterous experience when he was first tested last December. He thought something was wrong with him.:(

Have you discussed SSRI use with your doctor?

I think we've sort of hijacked this thread, but I didn't want to post elsewhere now that I have your ear! ; )

It's interesting what you say about the depression. Our counselor suggested that the things I was describing sound a lot like depression to him, and I blew it off. I said, "oh no, he's not depressed. He just get upset easily, but he's happy most of the time." Well, I've been doing some reading, and you are absolutely right. Depression does manifest a bit differently in children than in adults. I think he might be dealing with this as well. But why? He has such a good life with a very loving, involved family. I just don't get it. Is it just a genetic intrinsic predisposition? I keep wondering what I could have done to cause this.

We have discussed SSRI use with the doctor. In fact, that's the next intervention on the list. Right now he is on Concerta and getting counseling. We didn't want to start the SSRI at the same time as counseling b/c we wouldn't know which one was working. If we do not see a difference before we go back to the doctor in a few weeks, we will revisit the possibility of an SSRI. She did say that if the meltdowns got worse with the increased Concerta, we need to decrease the Concerta and add Straterra. I do not think the Concerta has made the meltdowns worse, but it certainly hasn't helped. Since his focus and concentration are good, I think we'll bypass the Straterra option and will consider an SSRI like Zoloft if we do not see an improvement in emotional control.

Do you know if children can take Lexapro?

Thanks so much for sharing your experience. I really appreciate it!

Kunga Dorji
09-27-10, 05:47 PM
I think we've sort of hijacked this thread, but I didn't want to post elsewhere now that I have your ear! ; )

It's interesting what you say about the depression. Our counselor suggested that the things I was describing sound a lot like depression to him, and I blew it off. I said, "oh no, he's not depressed. He just get upset easily, but he's happy most of the time." Well, I've been doing some reading, and you are absolutely right. Depression does manifest a bit differently in children than in adults. I think he might be dealing with this as well. But why? He has such a good life with a very loving, involved family. I just don't get it. Is it just a genetic intrinsic predisposition? I keep wondering what I could have done to cause this.

We have discussed SSRI use with the doctor. In fact, that's the next intervention on the list. Right now he is on Concerta and getting counseling. We didn't want to start the SSRI at the same time as counseling b/c we wouldn't know which one was working. If we do not see a difference before we go back to the doctor in a few weeks, we will revisit the possibility of an SSRI. She did say that if the meltdowns got worse with the increased Concerta, we need to decrease the Concerta and add Straterra. I do not think the Concerta has made the meltdowns worse, but it certainly hasn't helped. Since his focus and concentration are good, I think we'll bypass the Straterra option and will consider an SSRI like Zoloft if we do not see an improvement in emotional control.

Do you know if children can take Lexapro?

Thanks so much for sharing your experience. I really appreciate it!

Be very wary re the use of any of the SSRIs in adults or children. The metanalyses have always showed that the overwhelming preponderance of their effect is placebo. However they are very slickly marketed.
Have a look at this article:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/seratonin.shtml


I am posting on another thread re the limitations of the scientific method in application and the issue of the distortions around the appearance of new drugs ( and SSRIs are still very new) is highly significant.

LunaLovegood
09-27-10, 08:36 PM
I know that my brother has Autism, and he has a lot of ADHD symptoms, like he can't pay attention to some things for long, and he'd definitely hyper.

mimi'sdreaming
09-27-10, 08:42 PM
I think we've sort of hijacked this thread, but I didn't want to post elsewhere now that I have your ear! ; )

It's interesting what you say about the depression. Our counselor suggested that the things I was describing sound a lot like depression to him, and I blew it off. I said, "oh no, he's not depressed. He just get upset easily, but he's happy most of the time." Well, I've been doing some reading, and you are absolutely right. Depression does manifest a bit differently in children than in adults. I think he might be dealing with this as well. But why? He has such a good life with a very loving, involved family. I just don't get it. Is it just a genetic intrinsic predisposition? I keep wondering what I could have done to cause this.

We have discussed SSRI use with the doctor. In fact, that's the next intervention on the list. Right now he is on Concerta and getting counseling. We didn't want to start the SSRI at the same time as counseling b/c we wouldn't know which one was working. If we do not see a difference before we go back to the doctor in a few weeks, we will revisit the possibility of an SSRI. She did say that if the meltdowns got worse with the increased Concerta, we need to decrease the Concerta and add Straterra. I do not think the Concerta has made the meltdowns worse, but it certainly hasn't helped. Since his focus and concentration are good, I think we'll bypass the Straterra option and will consider an SSRI like Zoloft if we do not see an improvement in emotional control.

Do you know if children can take Lexapro?

Thanks so much for sharing your experience. I really appreciate it!

Hey, I'm happy to help anytime! I'm not sure about Lexapro, you're doctor should know. Please feel free to message me anytime and we can talk more!

I think it's wonderful that you are doing counseling! My son is in play therapy as well.

EshkaronsEngine
09-28-10, 12:42 AM
I just talked with my brother who has a son with Aspergers and runs a school of aspies and said the convention speakers they heard are putting pretty much everything under Autism Spectrum. OK I get it Autism is the illness of the day. I don't have Bipolar, I don't have ADD I have something in the Autism Spectrum. Experts make me so mad. They turn the simplest things into complex structures to make a name for themselves and money. To hell with you experts I am tired of your litanies. I know my nephew and I know he does not have what I have. I don't want anymore labels. Just call me unique:mad:

Crazygirl79
09-28-10, 09:31 PM
Labels are crap Esh, we are people not jam jars so I understand the feeling about not wanting anymore labels.

Selena

Fortune
09-28-10, 09:47 PM
Esh, I get the feeling you have a lot of antipathy toward the autistic spectrum based on your comments here, but:

I don't think it's likely that ADHD will be placed into the spectrum, although I think it does have a lot more in common with autism than you're probably acknowledging. I also think you're comparing a young child's development to your adult development, which isn't really going to give you a fully accurate picture. Esp wrt emotional development.

Anyway, I don't mind where they put it as long as treatment for it and laws protecting us remain enforceable.

And regarding your OP: I don't personally know any aspies or anyone on the autistic spectrum who lack empathy.

EshkaronsEngine
09-29-10, 01:03 AM
Esh, I get the feeling you have a lot of antipathy toward the autistic spectrum based on your comments here, but:



I don't have antipathy towards the autistic spectrum. I don't think you really read what I was saying. They are including AD/HD under the Autistic spectrum. That is the current thought by the experts. I just don't relate to my nephew's experience but I guess that may be on the Autistic Spectrum of behaviors. I don't have enough empathy or whatever you call it. I guess I'm the only one here who cares that AD/HD has been hijacked. Fine with me that is nothing new just please don't think I have anything against the autistic spectrum it appears even mental illness is covered under this umbrella. So I will look for revelations forthcoming from the experts how everything mentally different ties in with the Autistic spectrum. So do u completely understand me. I accept that we are under the Autistic Spectrum and I can't wait till they explain everything to me.

Fortune
09-29-10, 04:29 AM
I don't have antipathy towards the autistic spectrum. I don't think you really read what I was saying. They are including AD/HD under the Autistic spectrum. That is the current thought by the experts. I just don't relate to my nephew's experience but I guess that may be on the Autistic Spectrum of behaviors. I don't have enough empathy or whatever you call it. I guess I'm the only one here who cares that AD/HD has been hijacked. Fine with me that is nothing new just please don't think I have anything against the autistic spectrum it appears even mental illness is covered under this umbrella. So I will look for revelations forthcoming from the experts how everything mentally different ties in with the Autistic spectrum. So do u completely understand me. I accept that we are under the Autistic Spectrum and I can't wait till they explain everything to me.

I can't find anything online that indicates ADHD has been "hijacked." I looked before I responded - this is why I am not concerned. I am certainly not concerned that all mental illness is going under the autism umbrella.

Right now you're going from someone else's report about something someone said at a lecture, and it's invariably easy to get misunderstandings or confusion in a situation like that. But this particular rumor does seem to prompt a certain amount of skepticism, I think.

TBH, while I said I wasn't too concerned, I think I'll add that my last concern is being categorized with people on the autistic spectrum and more that there is no way I want organizations like Autism Speaks trying to "advocate" for ADHDer needs.

Dizfriz
09-29-10, 08:50 AM
They are including AD/HD under the Autistic spectrum. That is the current thought by the experts.

I was skimming some of the posts and saw this. Eshkaron could you give me some references to this? There has been speculation that a number of disorders may be related especially ADHD, bipolar, autistic spectrum and tourette's and I suspect that, in the fullness of time, this may prove to be true at least to some degree. We do know that there is some sort of connection especially in one way comorbidities but that is pretty much all we know right now, at least as far as I can pick up.

The existence of a firm connecting these does not seem to be the consensus opinion at this time so some references would be really appreciated especially concerning this as current thought by the experts.

Sometimes new things happen and I manage to miss them.

Dizfriz

Lunacie
09-29-10, 09:23 AM
I just talked with my brother who has a son with Aspergers and runs a school of aspies and said the convention speakers they heard are putting pretty much everything under Autism Spectrum. OK I get it Autism is the illness of the day. I don't have Bipolar, I don't have ADD I have something in the Autism Spectrum. Experts make me so mad. They turn the simplest things into complex structures to make a name for themselves and money. To hell with you experts I am tired of your litanies. I know my nephew and I know he does not have what I have. I don't want anymore labels. Just call me unique:mad:

No one is saying that you're Autistic, Esh. And I don't think anyone is saying ADHD is just a form of Autism. I think they're saying that many of these neurobiological disorders are related and possibly form one spectrum that's even broader than anyone realized before.

To me, this is actually simplifying these disorders, rather than the current system which is very complex and separates them all with different categories when there seems to be as much in common as there are differences.

EshkaronsEngine
09-29-10, 10:57 AM
Thorough research is definitely not my forte. I usually pick the first shiny thing I see. So I hope you like my find. This is nuts man I thought ADHD happened in the same frequency between sexes this woman says it's 4 times higher in males.

http://www.retrainthebrain.com/autism.html

Lunacie
09-29-10, 11:08 AM
Thorough research is definitely not my forte. I usually pick the first shiny thing I see. So I hope you like my find. This is nuts man I thought ADHD happened in the same frequency between sexes this woman says it's 4 times higher in males.

http://www.retrainthebrain.com/autism.html

Without even reading the article I can say that is a common belief. And that is largely because when doctors and teachers and even parents are looking for ADHD they are looking for the way it presents in boys. The way it presents in girls can look rather different, but it's still the same disorder.

As diagnostic research improves, we'll see more girls being diagnosed and treated for ADHD instead of dismissed because they aren't bouncing off the walls. Girls don't cause as much distraction in the classroom, or it's not as annoying to the teacher, so boys are the ones who are marked out and parents are told they should have their boys tested.

My brother was going through some old papers recently and gave me an envelope with several of my old report cards. When it came to behavior I was consistently marked poorly because of whispering. I know I tapped pencils and tapped my feet and twirled my hair, always doing something but not as loudly as some of the boys.

Kunga Dorji
10-03-10, 04:39 AM
I just talked with my brother who has a son with Aspergers and runs a school of aspies and said the convention speakers they heard are putting pretty much everything under Autism Spectrum. OK I get it Autism is the illness of the day. I don't have Bipolar, I don't have ADD I have something in the Autism Spectrum. Experts make me so mad. They turn the simplest things into complex structures to make a name for themselves and money. To hell with you experts I am tired of your litanies. I know my nephew and I know he does not have what I have. I don't want anymore labels. Just call me unique:mad:

None of these labels are valid if they do not offer a way forwards to the person being tagged with the label.

Half the scientists in the world have not progressed past butterfly collecting. Make your collection and give everything in it the right label. Then allow your self to bask in the glory of your own self congratulation for a job well done.

Kunga Dorji
10-03-10, 04:42 AM
Thorough research is definitely not my forte. I usually pick the first shiny thing I see. So I hope you like my find. This is nuts man I thought ADHD happened in the same frequency between sexes this woman says it's 4 times higher in males.

http://www.retrainthebrain.com/autism.html

In adults it is acknowledged as being closer to even - or only a little skewed towards males. However- they just aren't good at thinking of the diagnosis except in hyper boys. The differential is more an indicator of clinical and pedagogic incompetence than anything else.

EshkaronsEngine
10-13-10, 06:32 PM
I'm thinking this maybe is a good tool to decide if you have Autism:confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idqrxk2SVMo

Lunacie
10-13-10, 07:51 PM
I'm thinking this maybe is a good tool to decide if you have Autism:confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idqrxk2SVMo

That looks like an awesome tool for helping Autists (especially non-verbal) communicate and express feelings, but I don't see how it would help with a diagnosis?

EshkaronsEngine
10-13-10, 07:57 PM
That looks like an awesome tool for helping Autists (especially non-verbal) communicate and express feelings, but I don't see how it would help with a diagnosis?
I agree. I was reaching pretty far, just saying I don't think that bouncy robot would do it for a kid with ADHD imho

fracturedstory
10-22-10, 04:46 AM
Right, I get really annoyed with the ignorance people with ADHD have about autism.

You cannot outgrow autism. It can become less severe and you can learn coping methods but it will always be with you. I've developed some great coping methods but under stress these fail and I go back to square one.

As for people with autism being selfish if they don't show empathy or break down when somebody is being emotional is utter bollocks.

It's not our choice that we can't show empathy. It the way we're wired. Some people with ADHD go through the same thing. I care about people but it gets so hard both mentally and physically that it's better to just ignore talking to people about feelings or whatever.

I have severe Asperger's it borders on classic autism. And I have such severe inattentive ADHD I can barely function without meds.

All you really need to have both autism and ADHD is the symptoms. Autism has a lot to do with a very fixed lifestyle, fixed thought process, obsessions and very poor communication with other people.

Sorry for the hostility in the post but people really irk me sometimes. And I did bring up points from past pages. If you really want to know how autism and ADHD can co-exist then PM me, because I have to live with both disorders everyday of my life.

Crazygirl79
10-24-10, 06:52 AM
Thank you for your post Fracturedstory!!!! I too am sick to death of the ignorance and stupid remarks made by others especially those with a "difference" themselves!!

I posted in this thread originally but I did so in a nice way depsite the fact this made me annoyed at the least.

You are exactly correct in what you say and I don't think anyone has the right to go around claiming they know all about Autism or whatever unless they actually have it themselves or have made the effort to actually obtain information and LISTEN to someone on the spectrum and what they have to say about the subject.

I have recently come to accept that I am in fact on the spectrum and it's this type of ignorance that caused me to go into denial in the first place, perhaps if people were to actually listen to what someone on the spectrum has to say then they may actually LEARN something valuable instead of forming opinions and theories on something they don't actually live with themselves.

Selena

ugoclick
10-24-10, 06:56 AM
aparantly autism is a failure to regognise peole are special living object, humans.

Crazygirl79
10-24-10, 08:21 AM
Seriously get an education ugolick, it is clear that you have no idea at all and I really wish people wouldn't comment on things they know very little if anything about. Many studies on ASD have been undertaken and they are finding more and more out all the time.

I can tell you as a person on the spectrum that we CAN recognise people as special living humans, we DO have feelings and thoughts and we ARE capable of empathy, friendship, love, respect and sympathy for others and many others on the spectrum can well and truly back this up, the difference according to those on the spectrum is that we express these things differently to the so called "normal" folk and there isn't anything wrong with that necessarily because I personally don't that the word "normal" has definitive meaning as everyone's idea of normal can be totally different to the next persons.

People on the spectrum are more logical than emotional and sometimes thats a good thing as not everything should be based on emotions though thats not to say that we don't get emotional at times because we do but it's mainly logic for us.

I'm sorry but ignorance and comments like these p*ss me right off.

Selena

Lunacie
10-24-10, 08:53 AM
Thank you for your post Fracturedstory!!!! I too am sick to death of the ignorance and stupid remarks made by others especially those with a "difference" themselves!!

I posted in this thread originally but I did so in a nice way depsite the fact this made me annoyed at the least.

You are exactly correct in what you say and I don't think anyone has the right to go around claiming they know all about Autism or whatever unless they actually have it themselves or have made the effort to actually obtain information and LISTEN to someone on the spectrum and what they have to say about the subject.

I have recently come to accept that I am in fact on the spectrum and it's this type of ignorance that caused me to go into denial in the first place, perhaps if people were to actually listen to what someone on the spectrum has to say then they may actually LEARN something valuable instead of forming opinions and theories on something they don't actually live with themselves.

Selena

I don't understand what you're angry about with this thread?

The OP was asking for information because he doesn't understand how some disorders can be cormorbid in the same person. I saw this as a great opportunity to do a little educating - with what little knowledge I have about ADHD and Autism (which both run in my family).

You want people to listen and learn, that's what great about opportunities like this for explaining and teaching for those who are willing to listen and learn. Those who aren't willing can just continue to be clueless dumbells.



aparantly autism is a failure to regognise peole are special living object, humans.

Would you please clarify something for me...
Are you speaking about your own opinion about Autism, or are you saying that what you wrote is an attitude that you've seen others have about Autism?

Some people do have trouble recognising the humanity of those who are different than they are - especially those who find it difficult to interact and communicate in the social manner that the majority is used to.

There was a show on tv awhile back about the way people with issues like Down's Syndrome are treated when they are out in public. They filmed a young man with Down's working as a bagger in a supermarket and some people were just plain nasty to him, saying things like he was taking up air and space that some "normal" person could better use. It was horrifying. But it's all too common.

It's the way people who are different have been treated since the world began - Blacks, Gays, Women, the Disabled. Some people are so busy pointing out how someone else isn't perfect that they fail to see that they aren't perfect themselves. Pointing out the flaws in others makes them feel like they are normal in comparison.

Fortune
10-24-10, 09:29 AM
aparantly autism is a failure to regognise peole are special living object, humans.

I think what you're trying to say is that autistic people lack theory of mind. This is actually not true. I have heard a few autistic people say that as children, like at five years of age, they had difficulty recognizing people as different from objects, but just as ADHDers mature and change (and thus symptoms alter as we get older and our brains develop) so do autistic people's brains. You can't base the entirety of what autism is on neurotypical interpretations of what some autistic people describe about their very early childhoods.

Generally speaking, I believe it's more likely that many neurotypicals lack theory of mind about austistic people, and it unfortunately seems that many ADHDers have picked up the same unsound rhetoric.

It is also impossible to encapsulate autism - a spectrum - into a single soundbite.

Fortune
10-24-10, 09:43 AM
I don't understand what you're angry about with this thread?

The OP was asking for information because he doesn't understand how some disorders can be cormorbid in the same person. I saw this as a great opportunity to do a little educating - with what little knowledge I have about ADHD and Autism (which both run in my family).

You want people to listen and learn, that's what great about opportunities like this for explaining and teaching for those who are willing to listen and learn. Those who aren't willing can just continue to be clueless dumbells.

This thread had a lot to be angry about if you're ASD. The OP wasn't just asking about autism, he asserted that he didn't think it was possible for ASD and ADHD to coexist. Many generalizations - most of them inaccurate - were made about autistic people in this thread.

Further, no one should ever feel obligated to educate others on demand. No one should ever feel obligated to take advantage of so-called "teachable moments." Do you feel it would be fair for NTs to constantly demand that you educate them about ADHD, even if you're tired? Can't focus? Even when you're frustrated and you know the next straw will be the last straw? Are you really ready and willing to step in and provide an immediate education after someone makes an ignorant assertion about ADHDers?

And you know, I mean it's one thing to demand education about difference on demand (or at least "educate and be nice or say nothing"), and is effectively silencing and denies agency to all of us who are different in one or more ways. We're only allowed to speak as informants, and not object when something is wrong or even potentially harmful - is this where you want to go?

But even beyond that, we're talking about people with neurological disabilities - autism and ADHD both - which can complicate being able to be nice on demand, being able to educate on demand. Being able to take advantage of teachable moments even if any of us wants to, whether we're autistic, ADHD, or both.

CrazyGirl79 also was kinder earlier in the thread.

Crazygirl79
10-24-10, 04:25 PM
Thank you Fortune, at least someone understands!

Yes it is incredibly annoying when you get someone making generalisations about a condition/difference/disability or whatever without knowing any real facts which is why I was annoyed and that annoyance is totally justified, in my experience a lot of these interpretations were made mostly by NT's and sometimes "know it all" ADDers (No offence is intended towards ADDers because I have ADHD along with the mild AS and YES it CAN and DOES co-exist!!) and in all honesty it's really quiet damaging to people on the spectrum when they have a bunch of professional or other well meaning people talking and carrying on as if they know how the ASD persons thinks and feels when they really don't have a clue at all...Why?? it's simple they aren't the people DIRECTLY living with ASD so how could they possibly have an accurate interpretation or make any judgement at all?? Most NT's or others working with directly with ASD kids or adults may have some real idea of how one with ASD thinks, feels and sees the world but on the whole scale the only person who can really explain all of that properly and in a true sense is most likely a high functioning adult with ASD and anything else you may read would not necessarily be entirely accurate just as you may read stuff about ADD/ADHD etc that may not be entirely accurate. I've read many things on these conditions/differences and some of the stuff I read is either totally outdated or completely and utterly incorrect.

As Fortune stated, the OP wasn't just asking whether or not ASD can co-exist with ADD/ADHD he was also making claims (which I KNOW are ridiculous) that the two conditions/differences cannot possibly co-exist which is totally incorrect as many people have this as a dual diagnosis and I personally know many ASD folk who display many ADD/ADHD traits and sometimes you can tell they definitely have the ADD/ADHD as well as the ASD. In fact ASD like ADD/ADHD, TS, OCD etc rarely travels alone so to speak.

Like Fortune also mentioned it is NOT an obligation to educate anyone about ASD or anything else for that matter, it is a choice!!and many have made the choice to go to seminars and what not to do this very thing and others don't feel the need or the desire to tell their story and "educate" the people and thats also a choice!!

I think overall you will get people who completely understand and you will get those who are completely ignorant at first but are fine once they gain a better understanding and there are those who simply choose to remain ignorant and make incorrect and stupid comments and generalisations, personally I could not be bothered wasting my time, breath or energy on the latter group I've described.

SelenaThis thread had a lot to be angry about if you're ASD. The OP wasn't just asking about autism, he asserted that he didn't think it was possible for ASD and ADHD to coexist. Many generalizations - most of them inaccurate - were made about autistic people in this thread.

Further, no one should ever feel obligated to educate others on demand. No one should ever feel obligated to take advantage of so-called "teachable moments." Do you feel it would be fair for NTs to constantly demand that you educate them about ADHD, even if you're tired? Can't focus? Even when you're frustrated and you know the next straw will be the last straw? Are you really ready and willing to step in and provide an immediate education after someone makes an ignorant assertion about ADHDers?

And you know, I mean it's one thing to demand education about difference on demand (or at least "educate and be nice or say nothing"), and is effectively silencing and denies agency to all of us who are different in one or more ways. We're only allowed to speak as informants, and not object when something is wrong or even potentially harmful - is this where you want to go?

But even beyond that, we're talking about people with neurological disabilities - autism and ADHD both - which can complicate being able to be nice on demand, being able to educate on demand. Being able to take advantage of teachable moments even if any of us wants to, whether we're autistic, ADHD, or both.

CrazyGirl79 also was kinder earlier in the thread.

Scooter77
10-24-10, 05:28 PM
I recognise the humanity of others all too well.
I am 100x more sensitive towards people than others who I've seen that pretend to care deeply, but really are looking out for No.1.
I find part of the problem is I take on too much of other people but I can't express that connection - it's another hypersensitivity, to other people's feelings and moods.
It's like there is way too much information going in but a reduced ability to express it to others. Sometimes if I really connect to something that another is experiencing, I do literally have to remove myself because I'm like a sponge and I just soak it all up.
You can't assume what goes on inside an Aspie's head by looking at them, the face and body don't give away a fraction of the inner workings of an Aspie's mind.

Lunacie
10-24-10, 07:31 PM
This thread had a lot to be angry about if you're ASD. The OP wasn't just asking about autism, he asserted that he didn't think it was possible for ASD and ADHD to coexist. Many generalizations - most of them inaccurate - were made about autistic people in this thread.

Further, no one should ever feel obligated to educate others on demand. No one should ever feel obligated to take advantage of so-called "teachable moments." Do you feel it would be fair for NTs to constantly demand that you educate them about ADHD, even if you're tired? Can't focus? Even when you're frustrated and you know the next straw will be the last straw? Are you really ready and willing to step in and provide an immediate education after someone makes an ignorant assertion about ADHDers?

And you know, I mean it's one thing to demand education about difference on demand (or at least "educate and be nice or say nothing"), and is effectively silencing and denies agency to all of us who are different in one or more ways. We're only allowed to speak as informants, and not object when something is wrong or even potentially harmful - is this where you want to go?

But even beyond that, we're talking about people with neurological disabilities - autism and ADHD both - which can complicate being able to be nice on demand, being able to educate on demand. Being able to take advantage of teachable moments even if any of us wants to, whether we're autistic, ADHD, or both.

CrazyGirl79 also was kinder earlier in the thread.

That's not what I saw the OP asking at all. Funny how our perceptions can be so different, eh?

And of course no one should feel obligated to educate others.

But it seems silly to be angry with those who have mis-information if we're not willing to share the right information.

Do you really see "constant demands" to educate others about Autism and ADHD? I don't see it all that often myself. I do see people who don't understand, and I generally don't mind trying to help them understand.

And even if they refuse to let go of their mistaken notions about the subject we're discussing, I never know how many lurkers are following the discussion and learning something. I've certainly done that a lot of times myself. Reading a discussion online, even a heated one, can really get my brain to thinking about things I hadn't considered before, whether I ever post a response myself or simply add a "thanks" at the bottom of a post or two.

I do understand being tired and frustrated - and I've learned that it's not a good time for me to be taking part in an online discussion, I'm better off playing some online solitare or some other game (I like Mahjongg). That way I don't bite someone's head off just for asking a question or saying something that I find entirely stupid. Often I come back and find someone else has responded in a better way than I was able to in that moment.

And sometimes I come back and find that someone has lost their temper and gotten the whole thread closed. And THAT is way more frustrating to me, to have a real discussion closed down because someone wasn't able to walk away when they couldn't keep it civil. (Civil is not the same as "nice.")

Crazygirl79
10-24-10, 11:09 PM
Yes the OP was asking for someone with both conditions to speak of their experience but to say "but as far as emotions go we are at opposite end" can be interpreted as a generalisation and a rather ignorant one at that, just because people with ASD have difficult expressing emotions in the so called "normal" sense it's it doesn't mean he doesn't feel them it just means that he expresses them differently.

To say that people with ASD do not have empathy for others is a total load of crap, I know of many people including myself that are quiet capable of showing empathy towards others but again like emotions we express it differently. For example I study animal care and that takes quiet a lot of empathy to do that.

It is not always our responsibility to educate people, some responsibility does lay with them and one could be forgiven for assuming that the OP took some time out of his day to educate himself on his nephews condition before getting on here.

I believe the original question was poorly written and I'm entitled to that opinion.

Selena

Fortune
10-24-10, 11:48 PM
That's not what I saw the OP asking at all. Funny how our perceptions can be so different, eh?

There was a discussion in another thread shortly before this one was created in which the OP actually asserted that he didn't believe the two could coexist, and implied that those who said they had both were either mistaken or dishonest.

And of course no one should feel obligated to educate others.

But it seems silly to be angry with those who have mis-information if we're not willing to share the right information.I don't agree. Imagine if every time someone said something about you, it was a lie. And when you tried to correct that lie, you were told they were just ignorant, or mistaken, or it's not their fault that they said something so horrible about you, it's just what everyone thinks. There's only so much of that any person should be expected to take.

Imagine if people were always saying that you were incapable of empathy, that you didn't experience emotions, that you didn't understand that humans are people, and couldn't comprehend the idea of other minds. Over and over. Imagine that. Do you really think you would maintain equanimity in the face of that?

Do you really see "constant demands" to educate others about Autism and ADHD? I don't see it all that often myself. I do see people who don't understand, and I generally don't mind trying to help them understand.I see a lot of people who don't understand, and I see people who demand that they be helped to understand, that if they're not helped they will maintain their harmful ignorance. There is a term for this that autistic people have coined (http://everything2.com/title/self-narrating+zoo+exhibit).

And even if they refuse to let go of their mistaken notions about the subject we're discussing, I never know how many lurkers are following the discussion and learning something. I've certainly done that a lot of times myself. Reading a discussion online, even a heated one, can really get my brain to thinking about things I hadn't considered before, whether I ever post a response myself or simply add a "thanks" at the bottom of a post or two.Okay, well, I agree with you about this, and this informs my participation in discussions like this one. This is why I am trying to explain to you that what you're saying CrazyGirl should do places the burden on her to face prejudice against autistic people, telling her she should only be nice and never be angry when people like her are so badly misrepresented. Right now, I hope you are not one of those people who refuses to let go of your mistaken notions about the subject we're discussing, but I hope others reading will understand why I am suggesting that demands to never be angry and educate people who are clearly misinformed don't really help, especially when you're doing it from the perspective of someone who would benefit most from this (as in, someone who is not autistic expecting autistic people to nicely coddle them while learning about autism).

I do understand being tired and frustrated - and I've learned that it's not a good time for me to be taking part in an online discussion, I'm better off playing some online solitare or some other game (I like Mahjongg). That way I don't bite someone's head off just for asking a question or saying something that I find entirely stupid. Often I come back and find someone else has responded in a better way than I was able to in that moment.

And sometimes I come back and find that someone has lost their temper and gotten the whole thread closed. And THAT is way more frustrating to me, to have a real discussion closed down because someone wasn't able to walk away when they couldn't keep it civil. (Civil is not the same as "nice.")Her anger was civil, though. She didn't call anyone any names, she didn't attack any person, she expressed anger at the misconceptions that she had read in this thread. If she's not to express even that much, then what is she allowed to do?

Imnapl
10-25-10, 12:03 AM
Fortune, I don't tell people I have ADHD for many of the same reasons. When the subject comes up, and if I feel like it, I take advantage of the teachable moment without disclosing my personal connection with ADHD.

Fortune
10-25-10, 12:35 AM
Fortune, I don't tell people I have ADHD for many of the same reasons. When the subject comes up, and if I feel like it, I take advantage of the teachable moment without disclosing my personal connection with ADHD.

Yeah, and this is fair. I mean I'm not saying no one should ever educate, but that it's up to each person to choose whether they want to teach at all, you know? Especially wrt disabilities.

Crazygirl79
10-25-10, 03:30 AM
As Fortune stated I did not abuse or ridicule anyone when I was expressing my anger which I believe was justified and with all due respect Lunacie you do not have the right to get on here and tell me how to feel about something or how to express myself, that in itself is a form of ignorance and if there is an issue with how I express myself I'm sure the moderators will pull me up for it!!

If EshkaronsEngine stated in another thread that he didn't believe that ASD and ADD/ADHD don't co-exist then he seriously needs to get educated either by a professional or someone who knows a LOT more about the subject than he obviously does, if he believes that people are mistaken or dishonest about their dual diagnosis of ASD and ADD/ADHD then perhaps that person has the right to ask him to produce either his qualifications or proof to back this theory up sadly the chances are he can't back up his words because it has been proven by professional people time and time again that the two conditions do in fact co-exist and I'm sure many on the spectrum who also have ADD/ADHD can also back up that the two can and do co-exist.

I find this type of ignorance more harmful than good and it only says to me how bad the ignorance really is, whats disappointing is that it sometimes comes from people who are "different" themselves in someway, I remember going into denial mode for more than a decade because of remarks like this along with the outdated crap you read in the DSM and other text books, I used to be amazed at how the people around me back then could make these interpretations and judgements about how I am without really sitting down and actually asking and talking with me about it, I've lost so many opportunities in life because of this ignorance and I've lived most of my life being misjudged and misunderstood by people simply because not enough people took the time to actually sit down and talk with me about how I feel, think and see the world, I guess I'm lucky I'm at the very mild end of the spectrum and for Eshkarons information I have been diagnosed with both ASD and ADHD together on 3 separate occasions by 3 different professionals, surely Eshkaron cannot say that those 3 individual professionals are wrong??

Imnapl: I can totally understand why you don't disclose your ADHD and I'm learning that I don't have to disclose my conditions and personal medical history but in some cases I will (depending on who the person is, what they want to know and why they want to know) I don't take advantage of the "teachable moments" because I don't feel it's my personal reponsibility and it can be somewhat draining, in my late teens I considered enrolling into college to study disability services so I could become an advocate but soon realised that it wasn't for me. There are enough people out there educating people on ASD, ADD, ADHD etc.

Selena

Fortune
10-25-10, 07:15 AM
I am now not sure that I recall accurately what was said in that previous thread beyond the talk about autism and ADHD coexisting seeming contradictory.

Imnapl
10-25-10, 09:18 AM
Yeah, and this is fair. I mean I'm not saying no one should ever educate, but that it's up to each person to choose whether they want to teach at all, you know? Especially wrt disabilities.Fortune, I have lost count of how many times a doctor has started asking me questions about ADHD - these are duty doctors, not my regular doctor. I had a doctor ask if it would be all right, if I had the time, to speak to a resident working in our clinic that day. I've had doctors ask me questions about ADHD that their child aged patients are unable to or with the same perspective. Even my rheumatologist has asked me questions about my ADHD,

I now find the same thing happening now that I have a diagnosis of arthritis and I'm taking serious medications that family physicians do not prescribe. I welcome their curiosity because their questions mean they are actively engaged in improving their knowledge base and the more they learn, the sooner someone else might get a referral, diagnosis and treatment.

Lunacie
10-25-10, 11:01 AM
Yes the OP was asking for someone with both conditions to speak of their experience but to say "but as far as emotions go we are at opposite end" can be interpreted as a generalisation and a rather ignorant one at that, just because people with ASD have difficult expressing emotions in the so called "normal" sense it's it doesn't mean he doesn't feel them it just means that he expresses them differently.

To say that people with ASD do not have empathy for others is a total load of crap, I know of many people including myself that are quiet capable of showing empathy towards others but again like emotions we express it differently. For example I study animal care and that takes quiet a lot of empathy to do that.

It is not always our responsibility to educate people, some responsibility does lay with them and one could be forgiven for assuming that the OP took some time out of his day to educate himself on his nephews condition before getting on here.

I believe the original question was poorly written and I'm entitled to that opinion.

Selena

I agree that the original question was poorly written, leaving each of us to make our own judgment on what the OP was actually thinking. Some of us reached different opinions. Happens all the time, even when something is well-worded. So much depends on the reader's personal experiences coloring the issue.


There was a discussion in another thread shortly before this one was created in which the OP actually asserted that he didn't believe the two could coexist, and implied that those who said they had both were either mistaken or dishonest.

I missed that thread. If that colored your perception of the question that started this thread, you could have mentioned that for those of us who aren't omniscient.

I don't agree. Imagine if every time someone said something about you, it was a lie. And when you tried to correct that lie, you were told they were just ignorant, or mistaken, or it's not their fault that they said something so horrible about you, it's just what everyone thinks. There's only so much of that any person should be expected to take.

Whoa, there's a difference between asking questions from ignornace and deliberatly ignoring what you're told and re-asking to see if anyone else out there will agree with you instead. I agree we don't have to keep explaining to someone who refuses to look outside their own little boxes.

Imagine if people were always saying that you were incapable of empathy, that you didn't experience emotions, that you didn't understand that humans are people, and couldn't comprehend the idea of other minds. Over and over. Imagine that. Do you really think you would maintain equanimity in the face of that?

I see a lot of people who don't understand, and I see people who demand that they be helped to understand, that if they're not helped they will maintain their harmful ignorance. There is a term for this that autistic people have coined (http://everything2.com/title/self-narrating+zoo+exhibit).

Okay, well, I agree with you about this, and this informs my participation in discussions like this one. This is why I am trying to explain to you that what you're saying CrazyGirl should do places the burden on her to face prejudice against autistic people, telling her she should only be nice and never be angry when people like her are so badly misrepresented. Right now, I hope you are not one of those people who refuses to let go of your mistaken notions about the subject we're discussing, but I hope others reading will understand why I am suggesting that demands to never be angry and educate people who are clearly misinformed don't really help, especially when you're doing it from the perspective of someone who would benefit most from this (as in, someone who is not autistic expecting autistic people to nicely coddle them while learning about autism).

Seriously? You thought I was making a "demand" that others should never show any anger about deliberate ignorance?

I do believe that if we (I'm including myself, suspected ASD but not diagnosed) blow our stacks all the time we only reinforce negative stereotypes. There is a time for righteous anger, and a way to channel it - without doing the "nicely coddle them" - while correcting the misinformation.

Someone who refuses to consider any information that challenges their own opinion isn't going to be swayed by anything I post or say anyway. All I can do is refute their misinformation as clearly as possible so that those who are lurking or listening will be able to weigh all sides of the issue for themselves.

Okay, well, I agree with you about this, and this informs my participation in discussions like this one. This is why I am trying to explain to you that what you're saying CrazyGirl should do places the burden on her to face prejudice against autistic people, telling her she should only be nice and never be angry when people like her are so badly misrepresented. Right now, I hope you are not one of those people who refuses to let go of your mistaken notions about the subject we're discussing, but I hope others reading will understand why I am suggesting that demands to never be angry and educate people who are clearly misinformed don't really help, especially when you're doing it from the perspective of someone who would benefit most from this (as in, someone who is not autistic expecting autistic people to nicely coddle them while learning about autism).

Her anger was civil, though. She didn't call anyone any names, she didn't attack any person, she expressed anger at the misconceptions that she had read in this thread. If she's not to express even that much, then what is she allowed to do?

I didn't tell CrazyGirl that she shouldn't ever express her anger about misonceptions and misinformation, or that anyone should only be "nice". I simply asked her why she was angry about the original post here. You said that the OP had written something more directly offensive in another thread, and that helps explain the reactions here.

I gotta admit that I get a little heated under the collar when someone misinterprets what I've written and makes assumptions about what I'm trying to say that isn't anywhere near close to what I actually wrote. But I generally send a PM to that person to make sure we understand each other before I write out an angry diatribe and derail the whole thread.

This shouldn't be about forum ettiquette, this should be about the similarities and the differences between ADHD and Autism - and what it's like when someone has them both.

Fortune
10-25-10, 02:33 PM
Fortune, I have lost count of how many times a doctor has started asking me questions about ADHD - these are duty doctors, not my regular doctor. I had a doctor ask if it would be all right, if I had the time, to speak to a resident working in our clinic that day. I've had doctors ask me questions about ADHD that their child aged patients are unable to or with the same perspective. Even my rheumatologist has asked me questions about my ADHD,

I now find the same thing happening now that I have a diagnosis of arthritis and I'm taking serious medications that family physicians do not prescribe. I welcome their curiosity because their questions mean they are actively engaged in improving their knowledge base and the more they learn, the sooner someone else might get a referral, diagnosis and treatment.

I'm not saying that no one should ever educate, but that it's up to each person to choose if they can. With disabilities it's more pointed because they may impact your ability to explain things and the energy you have available to explain things, and often such education requires an investment of time and energy that sees little or no payoff.

Like, okay, I have educated my doctors about stuff before, so like, I have done this too. I am not saying it is wrong in any way. Although in this case, I feel that doctors really do have the resources to research on their own and asking this much energy of their patients (esp. patients with disabilities) for information that they could probably research themselves is asking a lot. So when they put you in that position, it's clearly in your interest to educate them so they will better be able to treat you, but at the same time, depending on amount of effort, you may end up doing part of their job. I guess it depends on the relationship and how the doctor approaches such a conversation, for me.

Lunacie
10-25-10, 02:42 PM
I'm not saying that no one should ever educate, but that it's up to each person to choose if they can. With disabilities it's more pointed because they may impact your ability to explain things and the energy you have available to explain things, and often such education requires an investment of time and energy that sees little or no payoff.

Like, okay, I have educated my doctors about stuff before, so like, I have done this too. I am not saying it is wrong in any way. Although in this case, I feel that doctors really do have the resources to research on their own and asking this much energy of their patients (esp. patients with disabilities) for information that they could probably research themselves is asking a lot. So when they put you in that position, it's clearly in your interest to educate them so they will better be able to treat you, but at the same time, depending on amount of effort, you may end up doing part of their job. I guess it depends on the relationship and how the doctor approaches such a conversation, for me.

Well, there's "book learning" and then there's what we learn from real life. Talking to patients and comparing what they say to what you read in books or medical journals gives you a broader understanding, I hope.

This was certainly true of our experience with our family therapist. He didn't have a lot of experience as a therapist yet, but he had a ton of experience with an autistic kid of his own. Of course, his kid was different than our kid, and he wasn't sure she had Autism because she presented differently than his son. Reading a dry textbook would have informed him that it's a Spectrum Disorder, and that she was just at a different place on the spectrum. But talking to a co-worker who had a girl with Autism that presented very much like our little one was much more informative for him. Real life, eh?

Lunacie
10-25-10, 02:57 PM
As Fortune stated I did not abuse or ridicule anyone when I was expressing my anger which I believe was justified and with all due respect Lunacie you do not have the right to get on here and tell me how to feel about something or how to express myself, that in itself is a form of ignorance and if there is an issue with how I express myself I'm sure the moderators will pull me up for it!!

If EshkaronsEngine stated in another thread that he didn't believe that ASD and ADD/ADHD don't co-exist then he seriously needs to get educated either by a professional or someone who knows a LOT more about the subject than he obviously does, if he believes that people are mistaken or dishonest about their dual diagnosis of ASD and ADD/ADHD then perhaps that person has the right to ask him to produce either his qualifications or proof to back this theory up sadly the chances are he can't back up his words because it has been proven by professional people time and time again that the two conditions do in fact co-exist and I'm sure many on the spectrum who also have ADD/ADHD can also back up that the two can and do co-exist.

I find this type of ignorance more harmful than good and it only says to me how bad the ignorance really is, whats disappointing is that it sometimes comes from people who are "different" themselves in someway, I remember going into denial mode for more than a decade because of remarks like this along with the outdated crap you read in the DSM and other text books, I used to be amazed at how the people around me back then could make these interpretations and judgements about how I am without really sitting down and actually asking and talking with me about it, I've lost so many opportunities in life because of this ignorance and I've lived most of my life being misjudged and misunderstood by people simply because not enough people took the time to actually sit down and talk with me about how I feel, think and see the world, I guess I'm lucky I'm at the very mild end of the spectrum and for Eshkarons information I have been diagnosed with both ASD and ADHD together on 3 separate occasions by 3 different professionals, surely Eshkaron cannot say that those 3 individual professionals are wrong??

Imnapl: I can totally understand why you don't disclose your ADHD and I'm learning that I don't have to disclose my conditions and personal medical history but in some cases I will (depending on who the person is, what they want to know and why they want to know) I don't take advantage of the "teachable moments" because I don't feel it's my personal reponsibility and it can be somewhat draining, in my late teens I considered enrolling into college to study disability services so I could become an advocate but soon realised that it wasn't for me. There are enough people out there educating people on ASD, ADD, ADHD etc.

Selena

Sorry, missed this earlier. Actually, I was getting too upset and took some time away from the forum myself.

CrazyGirl - just to be clear - I did NOT say that you had abused or ridiculed anyone, or that your anger was not justified. NOR did I tell you how to feel or how to express yourself.

This is what I actually posted as a response to your post:

I don't understand what you're angry about with this thread?

The OP was asking for information because he doesn't understand how some disorders can be cormorbid in the same person. I saw this as a great opportunity to do a little educating - with what little knowledge I have about ADHD and Autism (which both run in my family).

You want people to listen and learn, that's what great about opportunities like this for explaining and teaching for those who are willing to listen and learn. Those who aren't willing can just continue to be clueless dumbells.

I was asking for clarification. I was sharing my perception of the topic and the way it was presented. I wasn't making any judgments about you, or telling you how to do anything or that your feelings were wrong.

In my follow-up response to Fortune, I was still sharing my own perspective and opinions, not making any judgments about anyone else. If you read my post in a different light - I'm sorry, I made myself as clear as I could.


Since you and Fortune are not willing to let go of the idea that I've somehow attacked you and get back on topic, maybe this thread should simply be closed?

Fortune
10-25-10, 03:01 PM
Well, there's "book learning" and then there's what we learn from real life. Talking to patients and comparing what they say to what you read in books or medical journals gives you a broader understanding, I hope.

This was certainly true of our experience with our family therapist. He didn't have a lot of experience as a therapist yet, but he had a ton of experience with an autistic kid of his own. Of course, his kid was different than our kid, and he wasn't sure she had Autism because she presented differently than his son. Reading a dry textbook would have informed him that it's a Spectrum Disorder, and that she was just at a different place on the spectrum. But talking to a co-worker who had a girl with Autism that presented very much like our little one was much more informative for him. Real life, eh?

This is true.

I think my point got jumbled: I've dealt with doctors as authoritarian professionals and doctors who treat patient/doctor relationships more like partnerships? I don't know if that's the right word. In the former case I've been made to feel like I have to justify my existence, in the latter I've felt that working with the doctor brought about some good.

Fortune
10-25-10, 03:06 PM
Since you and Fortune are not willing to let go of the idea that I've somehow attacked you and get back on topic, maybe this thread should simply be closed?

I don't recall saying you attacked her? I am sorry that I came across as saying you were attacking anyone, but I was disagreeing with what I saw as your position.

Lunacie
10-25-10, 03:16 PM
I don't recall saying you attacked her? I am sorry that I came across as saying you were attacking anyone, but I was disagreeing with what I saw as your position.

Thank you, you probably didn't. I guess I'm feeling rather defensive because I was so badly misunderstood.

How do we know when to disagree with what someone seems to be saying - and when to ask for clarification?

Fortune
10-25-10, 04:04 PM
Thank you, you probably didn't. I guess I'm feeling rather defensive because I was so badly misunderstood.

How do we know when to disagree with what someone seems to be saying - and when to ask for clarification?

That is a good question, and navigating impulsiveness and such.

Crazygirl79
10-25-10, 06:59 PM
Lunacie, yes you did ask why I was angry and I think I clearly explained but you also trivialized my feelings on the matter by saying "But it seems silly to be angry with those who have mis-information if we're not willing to give the right information" yes that can be interpreted this way and in a more indirect way you were telling me how to express myself!!

Neither Fortune and I had said that you were attacking anyone at anytime and it does seem to me that you're being rather defensive and feeling misunderstood whic I think a lot of people on here can well and truly relate to and I'm sorry if you feel this way...it is not a nice feeling believe me!

You say that we should "Nicely coddle them" and in some cases that is necessary but I personally refuse to "nicely coddle" someone who is blatantly ignorant and narrow minded as the OP obviously is in fact I have very little time or respect for such people because 90% of the time these sort usually choose to remain ignorant and why should I pay any attention to some guy whose probably not even working within the education or medical professions and who doesn't have ASD himself making an airhead theory that he can't confidently back up??

Judging by the information given about another thread and what I've seen here it sounds to me that the OP is more interested in pushing his own opinions rather than actually learning the facts.

Selena

Lunacie
10-25-10, 07:50 PM
Lunacie, yes you did ask why I was angry and I think I clearly explained but you also trivialized my feelings on the matter by saying "But it seems silly to be angry with those who have mis-information if we're not willing to give the right information" yes that can be interpreted this way and in a more indirect way you were telling me how to express myself!!

Neither Fortune and I had said that you were attacking anyone at anytime and it does seem to me that you're being rather defensive and feeling misunderstood whic I think a lot of people on here can well and truly relate to and I'm sorry if you feel this way...it is not a nice feeling believe me!

You say that we should "Nicely coddle them" and in some cases that is necessary but I personally refuse to "nicely coddle" someone who is blatantly ignorant and narrow minded as the OP obviously is in fact I have very little time or respect for such people because 90% of the time these sort usually choose to remain ignorant and why should I pay any attention to some guy whose probably not even working within the education or medical professions and who doesn't have ASD himself making an airhead theory that he can't confidently back up??

Judging by the information given about another thread and what I've seen here it sounds to me that the OP is more interested in pushing his own opinions rather than actually learning the facts.

Selena

For crying out loud. The more I say, the more it gets misinterpreted.

I did not say anyone should be "nice" or "coddle" those who refuse to learn. I said exactly the opposite! Fortune was the one who used those words in the first place, thinking that is how I said we should respond, and that's not what I was saying at all. Gah!

I do think it's silly to complain about something if one isn't willing to do something to change it. That's my opinion about complaining in general, not an attempt to trivialize your feelings or tell you what you should or should not be doing. I don't vote and I don't take part in political forums or threads about politics. I don't feel I have the right to complain about the government or the president if I'm not taking a stand by voting.

Imnapl
10-25-10, 10:03 PM
I'm not saying that no one should ever educate, but that it's up to each person to choose if they can. With disabilities it's more pointed because they may impact your ability to explain things and the energy you have available to explain things, and often such education requires an investment of time and energy that sees little or no payoff.Payoff as in what's in it for me? :confused:

Like, okay, I have educated my doctors about stuff before, so like, I have done this too. I am not saying it is wrong in any way. Although in this case, I feel that doctors really do have the resources to research on their own and asking this much energy of their patients (esp. patients with disabilities) for information that they could probably research themselves is asking a lot. So when they put you in that position, it's clearly in your interest to educate them so they will better be able to treat you, but at the same time, depending on amount of effort, you may end up doing part of their job. I guess it depends on the relationship and how the doctor approaches such a conversation, for me.Real life example: a very experienced doctor who was in semi-retirement and filling in for my doctor when I went in to get a new prescription for Ritalin. He wrote out the prescription, smiled, and asked me if I felt the medication really helped me. When I said yes, he smiled again and said that's what his much younger patients said as well. He had an adult ADHDer with a pulse in the room and seized the moment. I liked him better for asking.

The worst medical professionals I have ever dealt with were technically perfect, but possessed the bedside manner of a lamp.

Doing part of their job? I definitely hope so. It's my body and my medical treatment. :cool: