View Full Version : Feeling clearer when I don't eat meat and dairy.


Nathaniel 80
06-28-10, 11:42 AM
Hi there,

I have found that when I don't eat meat or dairy for a few days I am able to focus better. Its like my body is working way less on digestion. This gives it plenty of other resources to devote to concentration. I also feel more energetic and sleep less too, waking feeling more refreshed.

Has anyone else noticed the same effect? or possibly something similar?

Nathaniel.

PickMeUpRoadie
07-14-10, 07:50 PM
Hi there,

I have found that when I don't eat meat or dairy for a few days I am able to focus better. Its like my body is working way less on digestion. This gives it plenty of other resources to devote to concentration. I also feel more energetic and sleep less too, waking feeling more refreshed.

Has anyone else noticed the same effect? or possibly something similar?

Nathaniel.
I have experienced something similar, although it only occurs with dairy. I have since narrowed it down to lactose intolerance.

Juice
07-15-10, 11:03 AM
I think I wrote this in another thread calling out to veg /vegans.

I have been eliminating food from my diet since high school
I am really sensitive to salt and dairy. I don't eat sauces,processed foods etc.
I keep it simple . I am now vegan and mostly raw as I feel best this way.
I think this has evolved as one of my better coping skills:)
I have felt the ultimate best when I have done 7 day detoxes/cleanses with only about 2 cups of juice a day and some other liquid nutrients.
The mental clarity when the body is not using most of its energy to digest food is AMAZING!!!
You are on to something Nathaniel!
The beginning of a cleanse is the hardest part so I don't do them too often.

Many to most people are lactose intolerant.We stop producing the enzymes to digest milk around 4 - a little after quitting breast feeding.
That is the only time in our lives we are supposed to digest milk when we are supposed to grow in mass quantities.
We are the only mammals that consume another mammals breast milk.:confused:

Imnapl
07-15-10, 12:34 PM
Many to most people are lactose intolerant.We stop producing the enzymes to digest milk around 4 - a little after quitting breast feeding.
That is the only time in our lives we are supposed to digest milk when we are supposed to grow in mass quantities.
We are the only mammals that consume another mammals breast milk.:confused:Is this your opinion or do you have a credible source to back up this claim?

Juice
07-15-10, 06:54 PM
no problem.These were in my bookmarks. I can look for more :)


It is unusual for people to lose the ability to digest a nutrient as they age. But most people stop making large quantities of "lactase"—the enzyme that breaks down lactose—after childhood, says Eric Sibley, an assistant professor of pediatrics at the Stanford University School of Medicine, who has been studying why people develop lactose intolerance as they get older.Most people continue to produce some lactase, but at much-diminished levels. After they reach their individual threshold and can no longer break down lactose, it passes intact through the intestine until it reaches the colon, where it is finally fermented by the bacteria that reside there. As the bacteria do their job, they produce gas as a byproduct, which causes discomfort and pain as well as symptoms such as cramping and diarrhea.


In this article by Mark Hyman(which is a very worthwhile read BTW) ,it says 75% of humans are lactose intolerant ( including 99 % of Chinese - from what I have read through evolutionary circumstance ).


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/dairy-free-dairy-6-reason_b_558876.html


Dairy does not do a body good for many reasons.

Amtram
07-15-10, 08:24 PM
Hmmmm. Huffington Post is not exactly a bastion of evidence-based medicine, but whatever.

I was vegetarian for a little over 10 years, but my blood sugar levels were right on the border of needing a prescription for that, and I had been told by more than one doctor that my diet was negatively affecting my health. So I started eating meat again (and I try to buy humanely raised when I can afford the gas to get to a store that sells it) and it's helped tremendously.

Our reactions to diet can be as widely varied as our reactions to different medications. Certainly, it's good for us to eat foods that have less of a negative impact on the world, and most people get more protein than they need, but you shouldn't assume that one particular diet is going to be the best one for everyone.

Imnapl
07-15-10, 08:25 PM
Juice, that link is a commercial link for Mark Hyman. Do you have a link to the research by Eric Sibley so we can view the study? From age 4 to old age are quite a few years in this day and age. One of my medical providers advised me to run the other way when someone tells me to give up a whole food group.

PickMeUpRoadie
07-16-10, 12:27 AM
...One of my medical providers advised me to run the other way when someone tells me to give up a whole food group.

A valid assessment of most situations by your provider. I wholeheartedly agree (unless it were perhaps dairy for a milk protein allergy...)

Juice
07-16-10, 12:17 PM
Where do I begin? .I am limited in time this AM but will be happy to answer any and all questions that I do not address now,this evening.
I study nutrition and health extensively so I may have resources that are helpful to you .My goal always is to help everyone achieve optimal health in their own time and way .
I responded to this thread originally to address Nathans query and to
inform about my own experience with eliminating certain foods that made me feel not so good and seemed to help my mood and overall mental clarity dealing with ADHD (even when I didn't know I had it ) .
I certainly did not want to get in a debate about vegan/vegetarian diets vs. Standard American diets .There is plenty of discussion on that elsewhere.
I also tried to find some articles in my stash that I felt responded to your direct inquiry.
We are all on our own journeys in this life.I agree what is right for one is not right for another.
However eating a BALANCED diet whether vegetarian vegan or one containing meat is a good place to start.
Meat will certainly not make you healthy in and of its own.
It is high in saturated fats and contains many hormones ( to get the most bang for the buck ) and antibiotics to help prevent and cure disease from the horrific conditions in factory farms ) that are not good for overall health.
I am not surprised that a doctor would give you such horrible advice as to add animal protein to control sugar levels . Nutrition is not covered extensively in medical school and medical doctors do not know that much about it. How will eating saturated fats help diabetes?
One can also call themselves vegan and eat nothing but fries and coke.
Is that healthy? Of course not .

Here is a study study from the Harvard School of Public Health .

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/diabetes-prevention/preventing-diabetes-full-story/index.html

Processed foods and foods high in sugar are killing people .
Cancer can take up to 30 years to be visible on modern diagnostic tools etc so what you do throughout your life will effect your long term health concerns
Our digestive systems really like easily digestible foods such .Colons are long and twisty and function best with whole foods , preferably high in fibre.
The fermenting in of food in the colon is is a breeding ground for disease

Here are excellent sources: I highly suggest reading all of them if you can


The China Study - a fairly recent publication By T.Colin Campbell PHD is one of the most extensive studies on chronic disease and the roll of nutrition.
It is also a fascinating read .
Eat to Live is another excellent book by Dr. Joel Fuhrman which addresses the role good sensible nutrtion in Disease.
John Robbins in
Diet for A New America tackles this as well.

Yes Dr .Hyman writes for the for Huff Po but he is a best selling author and medical doctor in his own right.
I saw him mentioned as a source in the nutrition thread so I thought people may be familiar with his work
Huffington Post is not the source. Dr. Hyman is .
He is at the forefront of of functional and integrative medicine

All of these people explain much better than I can the role of nutrition and exercise in the development of Type 2 diabetes.



I could go off on many tangents on how this epidemic is draining the health care system and what we can do help this but I will leave it at that .


I have to go to work so no time to edit extensively or respond until later

I wish everyone success in their journey:)

Imnapl
07-16-10, 02:41 PM
Thanks, for the Harvard link, Juice. I found information about lactose intolerance there.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/calcium-full-story/

Juice
07-18-10, 12:15 PM
With all due respect to Harvard - telling people to take a lactaid is pretty lame advice. It does not get to the root of the matter


Here is a study on pediatric lactose intolerance :

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/930971-overview

Imnapl
07-18-10, 12:24 PM
With all due respect to Harvard - telling people to take a lactaid is pretty lame advice. It does not get to the root of the matterDo you also disagree with people who have allergies taking antihistamines?

Imnapl
07-18-10, 12:36 PM
Hi there,

I have found that when I don't eat meat or dairy for a few days I am able to focus better.My daughter developed a skin rash at birth, in the hospital. When she started eating solid food, I followed the advice of our health unit and challenged each food. Allergies to dairy products is always in the news, but I have yet to see much press about allergies to beef and corn, which are staples of the North American diet. The information available then stated that many more people were allergic to beef and corn than were allergic to dairy products. If you became a vegetarian, stopped eating red meat, and felt much better, might you have an allergy to red meat?

Juice
07-18-10, 01:10 PM
Do you also disagree with people who have allergies taking antihistamines?

Having lactose intolerance and being allergic to the protein in milk are two completely different issues.

PickMeUpRoadie
07-18-10, 04:24 PM
Having lactose intolerance and being allergic to the protein in milk are two completely different issues.

I'll restate that for him.

Do you also disagree with those who have Diabetes and take Insulin supplements whenever they consume saccharides in general?

Juice
07-19-10, 09:59 AM
roadie- I am a girl and I understood completely.

After this post I am done .
We have gotten way off topic.
Apples and oranges . I think Nathan asked why he felt clearer when eliminating milk from his diet. I tried to provide solid information.

One can either read new information and learn from it .Or read new information and take from it (or not) only what fits nicely into ones opinions and views about everything.
I prefer the first. The second does not lead to learning and growth.
The choice is yours.

Did you even read Hymans article about why milk does not do a body good? It is also mucous forming and turns acidic in the body - a breeding ground for disease. One should aim for an alkaline body.
Why would anyone WILLINGLY ingest a potential toxin into their body that has a domino effect on their "good" health.

I am allergic to bees. I have an Epipen.Should I go spend more time with bees (which I actively avoid) as I can remedy the situation with a shot even though all my soft tissues will blow up,I could potentially die ,and I will feel like crap for days? Of course not

It is up to each individual to take a pro active approach to their health.
Many modern diseases are preventable and reversible with good solid food choices and lifestyle.

Again, good luck to everyone on finding the right path.

Amtram
07-19-10, 11:24 AM
You can't change the alkalinity or acidity of your body without causing some serious problems. The author of Respectful Insolence, on Science Blogs, addresses this in a couple of posts, here (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/12/arm_hammer_baking_soda_for_h1n1_influenz.php), and here (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/06/your_friday_dose_of_woo_acid_base_or_woo_2.php), just for a start.

Imnapl
07-19-10, 01:32 PM
roadie- I am a girl and I understood completely.

After this post I am done .
We have gotten way off topic.
Apples and oranges . I think Nathan asked why he felt clearer when eliminating milk from his diet. I tried to provide solid information.It always helps to provide a copy of the original post or parts of it when referring back to it in a longer than one page thread. Some people consider themselves well read when in reality, they are feeding their brain garbage because they are either unable or unwilling to dig in and really learn about a topic. If one limits themselves to a steady diet of the Cole's Notes version of things, one will have gaps in their learning.
We need balance in resources of information just as we need a balanced diet.

Hi there,

I have found that when I don't eat meat or dairy for a few days I am able to focus better. Its like my body is working way less on digestion. This gives it plenty of other resources to devote to concentration. I also feel more energetic and sleep less too, waking feeling more refreshed.

Has anyone else noticed the same effect? or possibly something similar?

Nathaniel.


One can either read new information and learn from it .Or read new information and take from it (or not) only what fits nicely into ones opinions and views about everything.
I prefer the first. The second does not lead to learning and growth.
The choice is yours.You provided only two links to information, one of which was a commercial website. This pretty well sums up how I look at information: Your information is probably not credible... here's why... (http://blog.micshots.com/2010/04/07/your-information-is-probably-not-credible-heres-why.aspx)



Did you even read Hymans article about why milk does not do a body good?I tried Juice, but it reads like something Tom Cruise would write; even the "does not do a body good" is borrowed from the Dairy commercials. Aggressive copy screaming conspiracy theories are a turn off.

It is also mucous formingAgain, another broad generalization! Not everyone increases mucous production from milk and the medical profession has been trying to correct that misconception for years. From the Mayo Clinic (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/phlegm/AN01455):

Question

Cold symptoms: Does drinking milk increase phlegm?

I've heard that you shouldn't drink milk when you have a cold because it increases phlegm. Is this true?

Answer

from James M. Steckelberg, M.D.

Phlegm is the thick, sticky mucus that drips down the back of your throat when you have a cold. Although drinking milk may make phlegm thicker and more irritating to your throat than it would normally be, milk doesn't cause your body to make more phlegm. In fact, frozen dairy products can soothe a sore throat and provide calories when you otherwise may not eat.

Imnapl
07-19-10, 04:17 PM
Did you even read Hymans article about . . . The good doctor also said this:
"The way we think about disease, mental illness, and our brain aging, actually has nothing, nothing to do with how our body actually works … The way we think about disease is all wrong … the name of the disease tells us nothing about the real reason or the causes of them. Diseases don't exist."

Be afraid, be very afraid.

qinkin
07-21-10, 03:03 PM
Well ya, acid and alkaline forming foods.. There are many sources of this information..Questioning is good, though.

It's pretty solid fact, in the scientific realm, that certain foods induce alkalizing effects and others, acidifying.. Even the stigmatized Alkaline Water thing has scientific validation in renal function related area, at least.. So alkaline foods, causing less metabolic by-product..

So taking a little break from meat and pasteurized milk (many of the original vitamins have been destroyed by this process and may actually lead to greater risk of pathogens).. I would continue to eat natural live and active yogurt, everyday, if you aren't doing any other dairy product..

Can allow your digestive system to recover.. And yes, it's easier to digest fruits than to digest anything else, even veggies, and ya, meats and dairy.. It's just sugar, and bacteria that live in your gut, regardless, eat it up, yum.. Not to mention that fruit is mostly water, yes? Compared to meat, yes?

Dairy requires that you have the flora known as Lacto Bacillus (50% of the world, at least is lactose intolerant) but 90% of Northern Europeans are tolerant).. If you stop consuming dairy for a period of time, you will no longer have this bacteria to digest the lactose in dairy....

I'm not sure the exact amounts of time, but I'm confident in what I am expressing.. Juice, except for the thing about 2 cups of juice a day for an entire week, I can say that your intuition serves you well.. :)

IMnapl:
There is no such thing as a cancer cell. A cancer cell was once a healthy cell that has been spoiled by acid.
In a way, yeah, it's true, there is no organism known as Cancer.. It is caused by an imbalance of a list of things, which lead to pH imbalance of the cells, making them vulnerable to damage..

Do you know what a beer belly is?
Yes i gather it's caused by drinking too much beer, but...i wonder if alcohol is high in calories and this contributes to the beer belly?
Yes, and hard liquor causes less side-effects than beer does by the mechanism of causing less dehydration, on the count of containing less Carbohydrates..

The beer belly is due to fat in the - I think this is correct - omentum of the abdomen as well as the subcutaneous fat of the abdominal walls. The distinctive sagging of the belly is just an omentum full of fat cells.
So why does fat accumulate only there? The bodies attempt to keep acid from leaking out of the damaged stomach or stuff from other organs?.. :cool::confused:

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/04/09/us/why-a-beer-belly-is-precisely-that.html


Alcohol compounded by calories, slowing down the very way fat is stored. Just like the effects of ephedrine like substances prevent fat from being stored..

Ulcers_a matter of pH imbalance of stomach and GI tract..and/or H.Pylori.. NSAIDs tend to cause inflammation of the GI tract lining. Weak acids themselves, NSAIDS cause a number of changes within the stomach, including reduced flow of blood to the stomach, less mucus production, and less cell repair and reproduction. All of these tend to break down the process of defense and repair that keeps the mucosa healthy.....

The symptoms of an ulcer can be relieved by taking antacids, which can also help prevent the symptoms from coming back and help promote healing of the ulcer. Antacids must be taken five to seven times a day and can interfere with the body's ability to absorb other drugs. The two general types of antacids are:


Ones that the body can absorb, such as baking soda. These are quick and effective but may have side effects when taken on a regular basis
Ones that interact with stomach acid to create salts that are not absorbed by the body and are excreted

<><><> (http://www.cedars-sinai.edu/Patients/Health-Conditions/Ulcers.aspx)

My friend, drank a few beers after having been off of beer for months.. They were like stay, come on! I just left, and then the friend calls me the next day, saying she went to the hospital at ungodly early hour b/c she had an ulcer.. Smokes as well, everyday for about 4 years..



It figures. If you want to find out the cure, you have to buy Dr. Young's books, CDs, and DVDs. I should have suspected as much. I do have one question left, though:

But that's a very good point..It's likely nothing you can't easily find on the net.. ;)

Likewise:
• There's no evidence that dairy is good for your bones or prevents osteoporosis -- in fact, the animal protein it contains may help cause bone loss!
On the counter, that's very true.. Veggies contain way more calcium than pasteurized-pasteurizing milk; I assume destroys a lot of the original content.. So was that statement of mine sense-making?

The baking soda thing, from ScienceBlogs draws too many conclusions, and uses homeopathy as an excuse, rather than actual scientifically tested hypotheses, itself.. But fun for now.

Then it states this:Some chemotherapy regimens cause massive tumor cell lysis, and alkalinization of the blood with large doses of sodium bicarbonate helps prevent uric acid from tumor cell lysis from precipitating in the kidney and causing renal failure if urine pH can be kept above 7.0.

??what are they saying
The concept of acid alkaline imbalance as the cause of disease is not new.


Uhh, the sciB thing is terrible... Irritable Bowls, which was mentioned, before.. uhh.. Acid-pH is better than alkaline pH for cleaning the epidermis, and its hairs..It's called antiseptic, and oxygen promoting.. ;)

Amtram
07-21-10, 03:35 PM
That particular blog is written by an oncologist at a teaching hospital. His credentials are outstanding, and he also authors other pieces on evidence-based medicine as well as leading several studies a year on cancer. He doesn't use homeopathy as an excuse; he's seriously opposed to any alternative treatments that haven't been proven effective in controlled, clinical trials. Any mention of homeopathy you see in his writing will be disparaging.

What he was talking about with the alkalinization and renal failure is that it is one of the few times that there is a medical reason for alkalinizing the body, and that is because chemotherapy in the treatment for kidney cancer causes the release of high amounts of uric acid, which will become solid inside the kidneys until they fail unless the acidity is countered. The change in pH is a bad thing, because acids will cause organ failure, but it can't be avoided if the cancer is to be treated. The alkalinization, though, is only to counter that acid and bring the body back to a normal pH. If not in that entry, then in one of the many others, he also makes reference to some of the dangerous physical consequences of tipping the pH too far the other way, as well as how nearly impossible it would be to significantly change your pH through diet alone.

PickMeUpRoadie
07-21-10, 04:27 PM
IMnapl:In a way, yeah, it's true, there is no organism known as Cancer.. It is caused by an imbalance of a list of things, which lead to pH imbalance of the cells, making them vulnerable to damage..
Actually, they have classified the HeLa cancer cells from Henrietta Lacks (died 1951) as

"HeLa cells
Scientific classification
Kingdom: incertae sedis
Phylum: incertae sedis
Class: incertae sedis
Order: incertae sedis
Family: Helacytidae
Genus: Helacyton
Species: H. gartleri

Binomial name
Helacyton gartleri"

These cells are immortal in the meaning that they actively produce telomerase, allowing the telomeres on the ends of the chromosomes to remain intact after cell division. There are descendants of the original tumor still alive today, and the number of cells divided from the original tumor to present day is set above the number of cells in Henrietta Lacks' body.

These cells are known to be "weeds" in cancer research. They contaminate many lab samples misleading researchers.

Hearty Soul
07-21-10, 05:02 PM
Hi there,

I have found that when I don't eat meat or dairy for a few days I am able to focus better. Its like my body is working way less on digestion. This gives it plenty of other resources to devote to concentration. I also feel more energetic and sleep less too, waking feeling more refreshed.

Has anyone else noticed the same effect? or possibly something similar?

Nathaniel.

1 - From Mayo Clinic's website about diet:

QUOTE:
Special diets. Most diets for ADHD involve eliminating foods thought to increase hyperactivity, such as sugar and caffeine, and common
allergens such as wheat, milk and eggs. Some diets recommend eliminating artificial food colorings and additives.
So far, studies haven't found a consistent link between diet and improved symptoms of ADHD, though a limited number of studies
suggest diet changes might make a difference. UNQUOTE

Here is the website: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/adhd/DS00275/DSECTION=alternative-medicine (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/adhd/DS00275/DSECTION=alternative-medicine)

2 - Re importance of Protein in diet from the following website:

http://3stepsadd.com/premium/nutriti...nce-of-protein (http://3stepsadd.com/premium/nutrition-and-brain-function-the-importance-of-protein)

QUOTE:
A strong case can be made that some of the symptoms associated with ADD-ADHD can also
be traced back to deficient neurotransmitter activity ............
........role of proteins, carbohydrates, fats and vitamins and minerals in ensuring proper brain function. ...................

The vital importance of protein in our diets can be summed up in two words: Building Blocks. Neurotransmitters do not
enter our bodies ‘whole’, they have to be manufactured by the body. This is done by using basic chemical building blocks
of which amino acids are the most important. Where do we get these amino acids? Answer: From the protein in our diets. ....
............................

This is, if anything, even more important in the case of the ‘ADD-ADHD brain’ where
everything possible should be done to ensure the smooth running of every part of the central nervous system.

UNQUOTE

Imnapl
07-21-10, 09:32 PM
O.k., guys - ginkin this means you: I have no idea why you are directing comments about cancer at me? The Hyman quotation did not include the word cancer. :confused:

Layla771
07-22-10, 12:37 PM
I didn't read all of this, but it's an interesting thread. - Just wanted to say that some people may be allergic or sensitive to certain foods or even food groups, and that each situation is probably individual.

Also, the problem may be genetically modified or heavily sprayed corn or beef from cows fed with it, or other GMO/chemically-laden produce... Some people may tolerate organic or goat milk better..

There seems to be a lot of conflicting info online and in books and what may be great food for someone may be really bad for someone else..
(While some things such as sweets or certain food additives or chemicals in the food are generally considered bad...)

I've researched veganism a bit and to my (limited) knowledge didn't see myself becoming a vegan without any supplements. I was deficient in zinc and magnesium and felt better after taking supplements, but they had some side effects. So, what to do? I opted for natural food.

I was a vegetarian in the past easily, still think you have to be much more careful about combining food if vegetarian or vegan. For some people it seems to work, at least for some time.
I got put off when I saw the thread about therapists on a vegan forum..

I hope I can maybe go back to being vegetarian someday, as it is, I usually feel better after eating some meat.. AND fresh veggies! And some carbs. I went without milk and gluten for a while too, and while in some respects I felt better, I got some other problems and was told to get more calcium, soo...?
Still tweaking nutrition and tryin' to figure it all out.. :)

I think it's a life-long adaptation to lifestyle and environment etc. (Someone in California has different needs than someone in cold climate, sedentary work vs more active, etc.)

Proteins and certain vitamins/minerals are important and if you don't get 'em with animal food, you must substitute with other things. Too much meat can give me rheumatism (and other family members too!) so we eat it maybe 2-3x a week or less.. I think I was deficient in magnesium/zinc due to not varied enough mostly vegetarian food before, and some stress.. (Stress flushes out/uses up important minerals too..) So both lifestyle-nutrition need to be in combination, somehow..

Too much calcium (from milk or elsewhere) or some other vitamins/minerals can decrease amount of magnesium too.. Most vitamins/minerals need to be in balance.. There's a lot of info out there on this, of course it's important to double-check and verify sources and possibly talk to a doctor or pharmacist (if you find a knowledgeable one, my Dad had to cure his rheumatism himself, and inform his doc about it!)

Imnapl
07-22-10, 01:16 PM
Too much meat can give me rheumatism (and other family members too!)That is only true with Gout, which is an inflammatory arthritis. I enjoyed your post.

Layla771
07-23-10, 08:26 AM
That is only true with Gout, which is an inflammatory arthritis. I enjoyed your post.
Thanks! :) We were never officially diagnosed, so I don't know. Dad had tests, but they didn't find anything, and he was only offered painkillers (the same ones as used for rheumatism) and told 'What else does he want?' He found bits of 'the nutrition thing' in a book on arthritis (by Dr Giraud Campbell - who doesn't say to omit meat, just to go for more 'unprocessed' and more natural foods - I think it wasn't limited to gout, but for arthritis in general, I've seen some awesome 'before' and 'after' Xrays of bad joints in that book!) and in general healthy food/nutrition and healthy living books... Still learning..

If anyone has joint pain or backache, it's something to try relatively easily. Much easier and cheaper than operations or spas.. Mum didn't believe Dad at first but he asked her to try it (not just less meat, also less or no wine/alcohol/sweets/coffee(...) at least at the time of pain, the whole 'healthy food' thing, we teenagers rebelled at the time, and then later accepted it as we saw both Mom and Dad got muuch better!!)

We get milk directly from a farmer, Dad drinks his raw (most of others are not so brave).. We make 'sour milk' (like yogurt, but uncooked) in the summer especially.. (It's important to know and trust the farmer in this regard, I hear in the US in some parts it's prohibited to sell raw milk?)

Of course food a 60-year-old man needs is different from food a female in 'fertile age' needs.. So tweaking is needed (I wish I knew this then already!)

I've read that the talk of 'alkalinizing' the body is mostly about minerals/vitamins. It seems a bit difficult to read this thread in some of the posts above, I agree it's great if impartial info, quotes and links can be provided..

Raw food/juicing may be great as a supplement to an otherwise balanced nutrition.. It's important to be careful too.. A friend of mine almost went raw/frutarian at a time and had problems with her teeth (partly due to acidic fruit and partly because of her eating disorders/almost-bulimia I guess..) I read many frutarians can develop all sorts of problems, so it's important to be careful with this.. (it's online, can't seem to remember a link, probably if you google 'frutarian problems' or such.)

I'd love to be frutarian as it seems such a very ethical thing to be (you don't kill anyone :)) and it doesn't seem possible in our climate with the type of fruit here.. (Tried it one day and my teeth didn't like it, Dad tried it one day and his rheumatism didn't like it - some fruit like too many peaches or citrus fruits can make it worse too..)

We know someone who cured his leukemia with veggie juicing. I think he only did it for a limited amount of time.

Marspider
07-23-10, 09:40 AM
Ah, yes, but humans have evolved genes to produce lactase into adulthood. It's a useful gene as it expands the human diet.

Apparently about 70% of Europeans have this gene. So that's not most people for one.
Other populations like Africans and Asians are supposed to be very lactose intolerant. Asians yes but Africans not necessarily.

Some of the African non tolerance of lactose is actually because it's a different gene, if I remember, the test to test lactose intolerance tests something that those who have an alternative lactase gene will test positive for and appear as lactose intolerant but are not.
This solved a puzzle for me as there are claims that most Africans are lactose intolerant but I barely knew anyone who was lactose intolerant (I lived my childhood in West Africa). I do know plenty of African Americans who are lactose intolerant though.

Eastern African groups such as the Masai are herding groups and they drink milk in many quantities. But there are herding groups in West Africa as well and it's believed that herding came about in much of Africa due to the drying out of the Sahara, this forced people to move southwards so many populations in West Africa I believe will have this gene, if their ancestors were herders before the final drying out of the Sahara.

And even for Asians, there are milk drinking societies. Does horsemilk contain lactose? If yes, then horsemilk was part of the diet for Mongolians who were able to invade large part of the world as they subsisted on the milk and blood of their mares, and were constantly on the move which was a big part of the reason the Hordes were so successful. Lactose intolerant? And yes, I know fermentation decreases the amount of lactose in horse milk.

A quick search of Wikipedia shows distribution of lactose intolerance around the world. You will see many people are intolerant (most of China) but many aren't.
So not most humans are lactose intolerant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance

I find it really curious that the Balkans seems to have a relatively high amount of lactose intolerance. They do eat a lot of yoghurt there though...

Some links that aren't the Huntington Post.

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2006/12/6246.ars
(different genes for lactose)

http://www.nutritionatc.hawaii.edu/HO/2000/86.htm

no problem.These were in my bookmarks. I can look for more :)


It is unusual for people to lose the ability to digest a nutrient as they age. But most people stop making large quantities of "lactase"—the enzyme that breaks down lactose—after childhood, says Eric Sibley, an assistant professor of pediatrics at the Stanford University School of Medicine, who has been studying why people develop lactose intolerance as they get older.Most people continue to produce some lactase, but at much-diminished levels. After they reach their individual threshold and can no longer break down lactose, it passes intact through the intestine until it reaches the colon, where it is finally fermented by the bacteria that reside there. As the bacteria do their job, they produce gas as a byproduct, which causes discomfort and pain as well as symptoms such as cramping and diarrhea.


In this article by Mark Hyman(which is a very worthwhile read BTW) ,it says 75% of humans are lactose intolerant ( including 99 % of Chinese - from what I have read through evolutionary circumstance ).


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/dairy-free-dairy-6-reason_b_558876.html


Dairy does not do a body good for many reasons.

Imnapl
07-23-10, 12:50 PM
Thanks! :) We were never officially diagnosed, so I don't know. Dad had tests, but they didn't find anything, and he was only offered painkillers (the same ones as used for rheumatism) and told 'What else does he want?' He found bits of 'the nutrition thing' in a book on arthritis (by Dr Giraud Campbell - who doesn't say to omit meat, just to go for more 'unprocessed' and more natural foods - I think it wasn't limited to gout, but for arthritis in general, I've seen some awesome 'before' and 'after' Xrays of bad joints in that book!) and in general healthy food/nutrition and healthy living books... Still learning..Rheumatism is a vague term telling you they don't know what you've got. There are more than 100 forms of arthritis. The most common form of arthritis is Osteoarthritis which is degenerative joint disease - a joint is damaged for some reason (wear and tear, accidents, etc.) and osteoarthritis sets in. Most people, if they live long enough, will develop osteoarthritis in a joint; if you develop it at a "young" age, red flags should go up.

The types of arthritis that one can't fool around with are called inflammatory arthritis - gout is one of these. Inflammatory arthritis is a systemic disease - it affects the whole body. Something triggers the immune system in predisposed people and it goes into over-drive, attacking its own tissue. Rheumatoid arthritis is the most common inflammatory arthritis. People with uncontrolled inflammatory arthritis are at greater risk for developing other auto-immune diseases like diabetes or thyroid disease. They are also more likely to develop heart disease.

Untreated inflammatory arthritis damages joints which then leads to osteoarthritis. Often doctors only see the osteoarthritis and not the systemic disease (inflammatory arthritis) which caused the damage.

Many countries have some type of arthritis organization website. I suggest you look for one where you live.

Re: raw milk: brave or just lucky? Bacteria or viruses can trigger inflammatory arthritis. Mine was triggered by the flu.

qinkin
07-23-10, 02:30 PM
I'm cutting out dairy.. Maybe allowing some highly cultured yogurt, (DIY culture for about 24 hours! warm water in a cooler w/the yogurt in glass jars) made by myself from that Cascadian Farms yogurt (for starter).. It's got like 7 different live and active bacterias.. And it's all-natural. . Yogurt has tons of protein, higher quality protein than plain milk, and way less lactose.

Cheese has less lactose than plain milk (but no live or active cultures you can usually bet on), and butter does not have lactose, at all, but cholesterol and added soybean crap oil, so prolly best w/whole food-butter, not synthetic..

Ya, the gene is limited to Northern Europeans.. mainly..I need some links to brush up on that topic.. But it still doesn't make sense, to be consuming uncultured mammalian milk once maturity is reached..... Sure the dominant gene

I'm not of exclusively Northern European descent..

Substantially Central European, maybe some South-Eastern, I'm not sure the technicalities....And my grandmother who is more Northern European than me, is lactose intolerant..Has type II diabetes..

I had a lot of dairy last night, and I couldn't sleep until I ate a few stalks of celery @ 5am.. A lot of gas, a lot of discomfort, a lot of digestive issues..

Good news, now I believe my problems haven't that much to do w/meds..


It's clear that there's just something about dairy:D

Ah, yes, but humans have evolved genes to produce lactase into adulthood. It's a useful gene as it expands the human diet.Could you show us the links? Cuzz once you run out of lacto-bacillus in your gut, you can never really recover it back, which may signal the genes to be shut off permanently..(?)..

I'm trying to make the most sense out of the reasonable pieces of information presented so far, but I can't cover everything..

So not most humans are lactose intolerant.that's sounds pretty contradictory to the information presented..

Most the world did not come to depend on cow's milk for nutrition.. In Northern Europe, it seems the growing season is very short..:confused:

I'm mostly just curious on how much everyone really knows about all this, and any insight that can be gleaned, try to be scientific as possible..

he frequency of decreased lactase activity ranges from as little as 5% in northern Europe, up to 71% for Sicily, to more than 90% in some African and Asian countries.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-autogenerated3_1-0">[2]</sup>ahh thanks.. so.. ya..

You know horses originated from North America? Not Eurasia.. (http://www.toequest.com/forum/general-biology/5163-earthly-equine-evolution.html)

Now that we actually think about it, ya, prolly right..
~~~~

OK, so can we distinguish between grass fed beef, and corn fed beef.. And also corn fed-cow milk, compared to grass fed-cow's milk....hmmm.. :)

You can't refute that!!! Corn was never used to feed cows, or any other animal.... Grass itself evolved to be grazed on....Look this up, you won't be disappointed! The cows get really sick!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_pLy7Gjlww

Imnapl
07-23-10, 02:50 PM
Cheese has less lactose than plain milk (but no live or active cultures you can usually bet on), and butter does not have lactose, at all, but cholesterol and added soybean crap oil, so prolly best w/whole food-butter, not synthetic.. Ginkin, are you saying butter has "added soybean crap oil" or are you referring to "margarine"?

Amtram
07-23-10, 02:59 PM
Lactose intolerance is a funny thing. Someone who has trouble drinking cow's milk might not have trouble with yogurt or cheeses from cow's milk. Many people who have trouble with cow's milk are perfectly fine with goat's milk or sheep's milk, or the other milks that herding tribes such as Marspider mentioned might be drinking.

You can always replenish the bacteria in your gut that break down lactose - that's what yogurt with live cultures is for - but lactose intolerance results from a genetic difficulty in digesting milk or milk products. Someone who is lactose intolerant only with cow's milk has other options to try if they don't want to cut it completely out.

qinkin
07-23-10, 04:31 PM
Margarine is synthetic butter.. ? Is there really any debate?.

I can't believe its not butter! hahahaha, It's true!!!

You can always replenish the bacteriaI've heard the opposite.. You have to eat yogurt which contains the bacteria, after reaching a certain level of maturity(?)
You can always replenish the bacteria in your gut that break down lactoseWhat has this to do w/the lactase gene?, is what I'm trying to figure out. Nothing, then?

How does the human digestive system break down the dairy products? What does the human digestive system do on its own? I suppose the bacteria are acquired from eating cheeses, and yogurt at some point.. hm

Amtram,
I guess diminshed expression of lactase after weaning is what you are probably describing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase

http://altmedicine.about.com/od/healthconditionsdisease/a/lactose_intoler.htm

Whether or not people develop symptoms appears to be linked to the ability of a certain type of beneficial bacteria, called lactic acid bacteria, to break down lactose. Some people may have more lactic acid bacteria in their intestines than others, so they don't develop symptoms.:?

Goat milk is more completely and easily absorbed than cow's milk, leaving less undigested residue behind in the colon to quite literally ferment and cause the uncomfortable symptoms of lactose intolerance. It may also be that the patient is not lactose intolerant at all, but instead is one of the 1-in-10 people who are allergic to the major protein of cow's milk ... alpha S1 casein protein. The symptoms are almost identical to those of lactose intolerance. Both goat milk and human milk lack this offending protein.
http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=38646

Imnapl
07-23-10, 04:52 PM
Margarine is synthetic butter.. ? Is there really any debate?.Ginkin, if you continue to write vague posts, I will continue to ask for clarification so that I don't shoot off my mouth when I'm one sandwich short of a smorgasboad. ;)

qinkin
07-23-10, 06:01 PM
I have some sleep baggage today, I'll be back tomorrow or this weekend, and post a more sober observation of this whole situation..

Thanks for the thread, and all the investigations so far.. Where would I be w/o youz guyz?

Layla771
07-24-10, 01:07 PM
People with uncontrolled inflammatory arthritis are at greater risk for developing other auto-immune diseases like diabetes or thyroid disease. They are also more likely to develop heart disease.
Thanks! I've never heard of this before! Dad has had some problems with heart, and I often wondered if I had some sort of pre-diabetic condition (somewhat sensitive to sugar input, I get huge spikes and crashes. Or could it be just the notorious candida or hypoglicemia or such?)

Re: raw milk: brave or just lucky? Bacteria or viruses can trigger inflammatory arthritis. Mine was triggered by the flu.
He he, the cows here do get vaccinated against TBC and such, I think.. For Dad the benefits still seem to outweigh the rest: he seems the healthiest of us all, at 60+! (If you don't count occasionally being scatterbrained and stubborn!)

Interesting that you see your arthritis being triggered by a flu. I only see it triggered by stress and unhealthy food! (which can both cause a flu too..) And possibly because we live near a chemical plant which Dad worked in..

Dad actually gets pains in his joints again for all the major holidays, pretty much! (When there's lots of 'unhealthy' food, sweets and wine and such... It's his 'clue' to cut back on those!)
So not sure if checking out any national websites would really help? We just cut back on the unhealthy food and it's all well again..

I think it may have been ostehoarthritis in Dr Campbell's book on the photos, he wrote of people who couldn't walk and had excruciating pains, and then they could walk again..

Oh, and margarine is mostly processed vegetable oil as far as I know, and considered quite unhealthy in the books we read, also I had to stay away from it as a kid already cause I was allergic to food additives. (I know which is more healthy, butter or margarine, may be somewhat debatable, as especially margarine producers may offer a different viewpoint.) I see there can be blends with buttermilk etc too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margarine - interesting!

qinkin
07-24-10, 04:47 PM
I got some coconut milk today. I've had no dairy today or yesterday... Much much less digestive issues today..and yesterday:)

LOL crazy, but I have done this before. Nathaniel, how are things going?

Imnapl
07-24-10, 09:45 PM
Layla, is it difficult for you to access reliable medical information in Slovenia?

Layla771
07-25-10, 12:36 PM
Layla, is it difficult for you to access reliable medical information in Slovenia?
lol yes, because even the doctors often don't have a clue!!
I don't believe in conventional medicine having 'all the answers'... (though it can be helpful in some cases)
I was diagnosed for a certain condition (hyperacusis) on an online forum and had to print out the Wikipedia entry for my MD to take me seriously..
I asked her about supplements and nutrition or such, but she didn't really have a clue.. I found lots of things online and in books (that were recommended online), for backache/neckache too..
I think for most people it's difficult to find reliable medical info everywhere..
Doctors here get very limited info on natural means of getting healthy...
The 'alternative'/complementary medicine field isn't well-regulated in Slovenia.. (so it's difficult to know who to trust too..)

Layla771
07-25-10, 12:53 PM
I got some coconut milk today. I've had no dairy today or yesterday... Much much less digestive issues today..and yesterday:)

LOL crazy, but I have done this before. Nathaniel, how are things going?
Ginkin, if you go the lactose-free route, be very careful about getting enough calcium! (It's in some veggies and elsewhere too, do your research!)

I found a discussion online where some women complained of bone density loss when being lactose-free (vegan? I forgot), especially when pregnant. There are other minerals and factors important for bone density too, it's good to know about these. Some people even say milk (or at least heavily processed milk) and meat can be a problem for bone density too, just do your research.

My mild scoliosis and backache went way worse when I was experimenting with lactose-free, gluten-free nutrition, with meat added in (cause I got bored of the beans! and later on developed some sensitivity to them, cause I ate 'em almost every day at a time, for proteins - can't see them now lol varied food is important - ideally in rotation) Truth is I also was too much time at the computer, researching, with bad posture.. not enough sunlight.. (and it was partly stress-related too)

I read about vegan nuns having the same bone density as non-vegetarian women, it would be interesting to know more about this study and other factors not studied (were they always vegan? what were the levels? many post-menopausal women may have low bone density anyway..) See http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090416102302.htm
It was said they had low protein intake.. Not sure, maybe I read about calcium being needed for processing meat, can't seem to find a link now though.. or maybe that is just something that I sort of assumed/concluded from that.
So if you have or contemplate a high-protein diet that is lactose-free, I'd suggest further research.

Ideally you'd do this with help and supervision from someone 'in the know' (I couldn't find anyone knowledgeable enough here, so it was trial-and-error I guess..)

qinkin
07-25-10, 03:44 PM
My mild scoliosis and backache went way worse when I was experimenting with lactose-free, gluten-free nutrition, with meat added in (cause I got bored of the beans! and later on developed some sensitivity to them, cause I ate 'em almost every day at a time, for proteins - can't see them now lol varied food is important - ideally in rotation) Truth is I also was too much time at the computer, researching, with bad posture.. not enough sunlight.. (and it was partly stress-related too." (Layla771)
I heard recently, than Vitamin D i (http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/80/6/1706S)s more important to prevent bone loss than is supplementing w/Calcium supplemental pills..(I think one of you guys posted something) Anyway.

100 gram servings

SkimMilk Vitamin A&D fortified: (http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl)
122 mg calcium / 34 kcalories=
3.6 mg calcium per kcalorie

Raw Spinach (http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl)
99 mg calcium / 23 kcalories=
4.3 mg of calcium per kcalorie

:D

Layla771
07-25-10, 04:41 PM
yup, vitamin D is VERY important! (or sunlight for natural synthesis) also magnesium and some other stuff.. (don't have the book here right now..)

hm, be careful with spinach - it has oxalic acid or oxalates or something like that, someone who studied food technology said it's best to eat it with milk - I don't know how accurate that is, didn't research it further - I know someone who ate a lot of raw spinach and had pains, something like arthritis or rheumatism..

just wanted to paste this link http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/24/10/1683 (that meat without calcium can be bad)

qinkin
07-25-10, 08:51 PM
From your link
http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/24/10/1683""Calcium, antioxidants and olive oil completely inhibited the promoting effect of haemin on the size of foci (Table III, B), and reduced the number of aberrant crypts (P < 0.01) in the colon of rats."
Even animals consuming the Western Diet.. Eating so much corn, their bodies produce so much more saturated fat! The whole body of the cow is lowered in quality, for their own lives, and as our dinner..

I wonder why their bodies do this.. The cows, their digestive systems are meant for turning grass into energy, fat and muscle, not corn and grains.. :confused:

Well I'm not sure.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091231163503.htm<>The Western diet also increased the number of macrophages, cells associated with inflammation in the colon, as well as several proteins such as myeloperoxidase and MCP-1 and colonic oxidative stress genes associated with inflammation. Taken together, Holt says, these data suggest that macrophage recruitment and oxidative stress is a potential early mechanism underlying the carcinogenic effect of the Western diet.<><>
- it has oxalic acid or oxalates or something like that, someone who studied food technology said it's best to eat it with milk -http://apjcn.nhri.org.tw/server/APJCN/volume12/vol12.2/fullArticles/Brogren219.pdf

So what are we left w/? But still the milk increased the amount of oxalate available for the calcium to bind to.. Or am I misinterpreting? And the olive oil did not affect the spinach oxalate-calcium-bioavailability relationship?

Layla771
07-27-10, 10:07 AM
Hey qinkin,

Yes, it can be tuff, no? (mis-spelt on purpose!)
I honestly don't have a clue what to eat or not sometimes, it's important to keep track of how you feel after certain foods or combinations.. Ideally keep a food journal (I did for a while, then sort of got lazy/unmotivated about it too.. Oh, and the Cronometer crashed when the computer crashed a year ago or so.. I had a lot of info in there..) You can track your nutrition on Cronometer or Fitday, so you can see approximate levels of minerals and vitamins, and increase them if something is too low.. (It's easier to do that if you're American, as you have some custom foods in there already, I had to improvise for some of ours..)
It's just approximate, it may give you some general guidance..

I'm too scatterbrained to research nutrition right now, was very much into this at a point and then stopped cause it was causing me a bit too much anxiety, with all the conflicting data etc, and the family was cranky because of my 'special regimes', so I just gave up and mostly eat 'ordinary food'.. I may research it again in the future, and tweak it further, at the moment I just don't feel up for it lol.. I just try to stay away from sugar and such.. (And we mostly eat what is generally considered 'healthy food') My parents just freaked out when I was gluten-free, and a neighbor was allergic to gluten and then had cancer, and Dad's co-worker who was allergic to gluten (or celiac?) then died of cancer too.. It was just too stressful to even think about it, lol.. So I gave up and started eating 'normal' like everyone at home was telling me to.. Maybe it would be still a good idea to get tested for celiac or such, but my doc just almost sort of laughed at me at the time for even mentioning it.. (She doesn't seem to have a clue about nutrition though..)

I felt hugely better on the gluten- and lactose-free diet (first without, and then with meat), except I was often so hungry and didn't know what to eat!! lol! We experimented with some new foods like amaranth (yummy!) etc. (Didn't like quinoa though.. Maybe we didn't rinse it enough?) I was like Wow! Do other people feel like this all the time? (got the.. gout? after too much meat though..)
There's also a possibility that I was just feeling better cause of the whole experimenting thing, doing something about it.. Realizing it was not just in my head but in my stomach, literally.. Know what I mean? It was a huge relief!! (Some people say they always felt better in initial stages of changed diet, so it may be sometimes difficult to say..)

I think they can test you for lactose intolerance though.. There's more info about this online or if you ask your doctor or someone in the know? There are some associations where there are people with this, they may also give you better info on how to eat lactose-free in a healthy way! (I know there was lots of info on being gluten-free on celiac's sites..)
There are also nutrition forums where some people may know this, or you could ask a good nutricionist? I wonder if any 'specialize' in ADD? or related problems?

Imnapl
07-27-10, 11:34 AM
(got the.. gout? after too much meat though..)Gout is a form of inflammatory arthritis. In order to diagnose gout, a medical professional needs to aspirate joint fluid from the inflamed joint and analyze it.

qinkin
07-27-10, 01:26 PM
Who's got the time to see yet another professional.. I assume the majority of people on this forum are already seeing and paying at least one for-profit professional..

I wish I could see a real professional about all my suspected problems, that I would like a professional opinion for..

Yes, it can be tuff, no? (mis-spelt on purpose!)
"mis" spelt, amaranth, ha ha keen-wah..

I am seeing a trend, Layla, lol

.. Maybe it would be still a good idea to get tested for celiac or such,
Ya I think so, I should've mentioned it at my allergist a month ago.. I just got worried about extra fees, and did not mention my concern.. Damn, next appointment isn't til' december.. perfect, lol.

Well I've got my Allegra, which tens to improve my overall condition w/o causing side-effects.. Not to mention Adderall, when taken correctly.

The US's health care system sucks beyond belief. I'm not even joking.

Gout is a form of inflammatory arthritis.
So it's not related to vitamin C deficiency always..

http://www.blogs.ayurvediccure.com/inflammatory-arthritis.html

"Inflammatory arthritis can be caused by other conditions, as well. Reactive arthritis is caused by certain types of bacteria and can develop from an infection in another part of your body. The deposit of crystalline structures in the joints causes gout and pseudogout. Elevated blood levels of uric acid, which is a waste product, can form in the joints when the kidney does not properly dispose of the waste...
I felt hugely better on the gluten- and lactose-free diet (first without, and then with meat), except I was often so hungry and didn't know what to eat!!The best kind of diet for those who suffer from inflammatory arthritis is low in protein and high in carbohydrates. Some of the common foods that can trigger the symptoms of arthritis are milk and dairy products, beef, corn, and wheat. Avoiding these foods can help you to avoid triggering the symptoms. In general, a healthy diet and regular exercise can help you to avoid many of the symptoms of inflammatory arthritis."

http://www.contentnejmorg.zuom.info/cgi/content/abstract/343/21/1520

Really try to focus on lowering uric acid levels. All roads concerning inflammatory arthritis seems to come to that.
____

I hope Nathaniel isn't replacing red-meat w/tofu..Chicken or pork may be the best choices for protein.. Or maybe stick to seeds and nuts and/or legumes like peas, beans, lentils, peanuts etc. Eggs/eggwhites, maybe too. If the meat is fed a natural diet?

Imnapl
07-27-10, 02:08 PM
Ya I think so, I should've mentioned it at my allergist a month ago.. I just got worried about extra fees, and did not mention my concern.. Damn, next appointment isn't til' december.. perfect, lol.

Well I've got my Allegra, which tens to improve my overall condition w/o causing side-effects.. Not to mention Adderall, when taken correctly.

The US's health care system sucks beyond belief. I'm not even joking.

So it's not related to vitamin C deficiency always.. Do you find that your allergies or the treatment (Allegra) affect your cognitive abilities?

qinkin
07-27-10, 07:09 PM
Do you find that your allergies or the treatment (Allegra) affect your cognitive abilities?It's an overall improvement. Sometimes, though, I don' always need the help..
<><>I've rendered the inside of our house very low in humidity (almost ruined my plant, had to put it outside!!)so dust mites are unlikely to be alive by now.. So at least they aren't multiplying.

So sometimes my allergies are real bad, sometimes, not that bad.. And I don't take my allergy medications first thing in the morning at the same time as adderall.. But i'm always changing stuff.

Imnapl
07-27-10, 09:42 PM
It's an overall improvement. Sometimes, though, I don' always need the help..
<><>I've rendered the inside of our house very low in humidity (almost ruined my plant, had to put it outside!!)so dust mites are unlikely to be alive by now.. So at least they aren't multiplying. Are you still sleeping on a mattress?

qinkin
07-28-10, 04:41 PM
Are you still sleeping on a mattress? Yes, but I obtained an allergy barrier comforter which is also water proof, and an allergen barrier fully enveloping my mattress.. And one for my pillow too, which is also water-proof and an allergen barrier.
(Target, all that cost around 100$, less expensive than anywhere I've seen) But my dad chipped in since it was for an empirically proven health condition; actual allergy to dust mites)..

My box-spring thing, the bottom support part, is on top of the floor, for some reason I can't find the metal frame to keep it off the ground..

qinkin
08-05-10, 11:34 AM
http://www.mercola.com/beef/cla.htm

I've seen multiple web pages displaying roughly the same information.. FYI..

I live w/my dad, and he gets grass-fed beef for usually between 3-4$ per lb. Been doing this for at least a year. It's really the only beef we eat now...There is def much less grease left over from cooking.. The guy who owns the little strip mall store, used to play for the St. Louis Blues. hha. .I think he partially owns a ranch in the upper midwest.

So that's my story of grass-fed beef...I hope this helps.

conjugated linoleic acid (CLA)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linoleic_acid#Dietary_sources

Imnapl
08-05-10, 11:51 AM
Pasture-grazed cows had 500% more CLA in their milk than those fed silage.



CLA has also been shown to reduce body fat in people who are overweight.

Interesting, qinkin. I always wondered why Weight Watchers strongly encourages drinking milk as part of their diet plan.

Amtram
08-05-10, 04:06 PM
Mercola is a woomeister. He and science have never even been in the same room together.

qinkin
08-05-10, 08:11 PM
I just google'd Linoleic Acid..It was one of the top few results.

Don't throw the baby out w/the bath water.

Here from the same Mercola link:A double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study, published in the December 2000 issue of the Journal of Nutrition found that CLA reduces fat and preserves muscle tissue. According to the research project manager, an average reduction of six pounds of body fat was found in the group that took CLA, compared to a placebo group.

The study found that approximately 3.4 grams of CLA per day is the level needed to obtain the beneficial effects of CLA on body fat.


It doesn't make a big fat cell get little. What it rather does is keep a little fat cell from getting big."

http://www.mercola.com/beef/cla_references.htm

I don' like health-care for profits. And I know Dr. M has his own line of products (which are probably better in many ways, but they are pricey), and endorses things often.. So take what you will. All doctors need money for food and to support their family's quality of life, which is an unfortunate circumstance, but who doesn't live to make monetary profits, in this society?.. ;):(

The more I live, the more I realize that blaming individuals is useless.

Amtram
08-05-10, 10:02 PM
Mercola has a history, a long one, of cherry-picking data from legitimate studies and reframing it to say what he wants it to say. He advocates a ton of unproven and even dangerous treatments for conditions he knows little or nothing about. A couple of lines from a study, taken completely alone, serve his purpose. You've been impressed by his "legitimate scientific claim" without looking at the study as a whole. The conclusions that follow are his, not necessarily the conclusions of the study, but since you've seen A double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study, you're primed to believe that that is an actual scientific study without checking the credentials of the journal in which the study was published (I'll give you a hint - it's where studies that don't pass peer review get published) and without thinking you need to check on what the study actually says, because you've been fed that answer.

It's just like the emails my father always send me that make outrageous claims and then say "Snopes.com has verified this!" It says that so you won't go to snopes and find out that it's an out-and-out lie.

Imnapl
08-05-10, 10:33 PM
I just google'd Linoleic Acid..It was one of the top few results.

Don't throw the baby out w/the bath water.Sorry?

qinkin
08-06-10, 02:26 PM
Ya you guys have such great reputations here on the ADDF compared to me, so reputation precedes validity in your world? You know what I'm saying? How easy that was to turn the tables. Disregard reputation (in the positive and/or negative sense)..
____________

I'll save the rest of my rage. .Just stop assuming you know me. Simple enough? K?
______________
One of the main citations from the article itself:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Pariza%20MW%22[Author]

Concerning specifically bone mass implications.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18803702
Its effects on reduction of body fat occur with enhancement of lean body mass and body ash; the effects of CLA on bone mass are inconsistent in mice and human studies....without extra dietary calcium there was no effect of CLA on bone mass.

Imnapl
08-06-10, 03:05 PM
Ya you guys have such great reputations here on the ADDF compared to me, so reputation precedes validity in your world? You know what I'm saying? How easy that was to turn the tables. Disregard reputation (in the positive and/or negative sense)..
____________

I'll save the rest of my rage. .Just stop assuming you know me. Simple enough? K?
______________One of the main citations from the article itself:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Pariza%20MW%22[Author]
Concerning specifically bone mass implications.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18803702
qinkin, are you advising people who feel better not eating meat or dairy to supplement calcium in their diets?

qinkin
08-06-10, 05:36 PM
qinkin, are you advising people who feel better not eating meat or dairy to supplement calcium in their diets?
I'm not advising for people who don't eat meat and dairy to supplement calcium in their diets..Only CLA+Calcium in combination (oh ya an not to mention VitD prev. discussed)..

Right now, I think it's pretty safe to say I'm advising what the link advises. The link advises to supplement w/extra calcium. But you have to get CLA somehow... (ex: Grass-fed cow beef and milk).. nontheless CLA is a proven beneficial substance..When taken in combination w/Calcium, specifically provides increases in bone mass..

"CLA-has shown a variety of biologically beneficial effects, such as anticancer, antiatherosclerosis, antidiabetic, immunomodulation, and antiobesity effects......effects on reduction of body fat occur w/enhancement of lean body mass and body ash;...We hypothesized that the inconsistency of CLA's effect on ash may be linked to interaction between CLA and dietary calcium levels.. without extra dietary calcium there was no effect of CLA on bone mass.
(Cosupplementation of dietary calcium and conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) improves bone mass in mice.)
J Food Sci. 2008 Sep;73(7):C556-60. Epub 2008 Jul 24

Imnapl
08-06-10, 09:40 PM
Are there any other sources for CLA besides beef and dairy products?

qinkin
08-06-10, 10:25 PM
Are there any other sources for CLA besides beef and dairy products?

Nope... Animal sources are the only source. (grass-fed variety has way more than non-grass-fed.).. Grazing animals (ruminating) (rumen)

Linoleic Acid there are many non-animal sources

Conjugated Linoleic Acid Synthesis

(1966) had identified it a decade earlier as the first intermediate of linoleic acid biohydrogenation in the rumen by Butyrivibriofibrisolvens. It was regarded as the only source of CLA in the milk and meat of ruminants until recently, because there was a relatively constant ratio of trans-C to c-9, 18:1 t-11 CLA (Wolff, 1995) that prompted Enser et al. (1999) to conclude that CLA synthesis occurred in the rumen only. However, CLA is now accepted to have two different origins in the rumen and endogenously in the tissues.While the origin of CLA from LA by B.fibrisolvens in the rumen was accepted, it was not sufficient to account for all the CLA present in milk or meat.. Furthermore, Banni found that lactating sheep grazing pastures w/no supplemental LA produced a high level of c-9, t-11 CLA in milk fat.. The puzzle as to why the milk fat showed greatly increased absorption in the ultraviolet region when cows were turned out to pasture even though the pastures are high in LNA and not LA, continued to intrigue the scientists.



Griinari et al. (2000) subsequently examined the potential for endogenous synthesis of CLA by infusing TVA abomasally and measuring the changes in milk fat CLA. By day 3, it resulted in a 31% increase in milk fat CLA, indicating that an active pathway for endogenous synthesis existed in the mammary gland.

The presence of more than a dozen isomers of CLA in the milk and body fat of ruminants is associated with the bacterial biohydrogenation of unsaturated FA in the rumen. Of all the isomers, c-9, t-11 is the major one comprising 80 to 90% of total CLA followed by t-7, c-9 comprising 3 to 16% of the total. The t-10, c-12 isomer, though important physiologically, is present in amounts of 3 to 5% of the total CLA. Although c-9, t-11 isomer originates as an intermediate during the biohydrogenation of LA in the rumen, its major source is the endogenous conversion of TVA by )-9 desaturase in the mammary gland and possibly adipose tissuesTrans-Vaccenic acid (TVA)

http://www.pjbs.org/pjnonline/fin179.pdf

Amtram
08-06-10, 11:09 PM
OK, I read the PDF. The whole thing, even though the specifics of the chemistry are out of my league. Nowhere in it is there any mention of what effect this CLA might have on humans. It's all about measuring the CLA in ruminants and finding that they produce more of it when they're grazing in the field. Nothing about this study indicates how this might effect or apply to humans.

If this is the same study that Mercola is using to support sales of his supplements, it's further indication of his duplicity.

None of this is commentary on you, qinkin, it's commentary on Mercola. He uses this technique on people who don't check his sources on a regular basis, and has made quite a living doing it. He doesn't care that people are getting sick and dying from taking his advice and buying his products rather than trusting in legitimate medical practitioners and evidence-based medicine. He takes pieces of information, as I said, and uses the pieces that suit his purposes to sell you stuff. Just like here.

qinkin
08-07-10, 12:22 PM
I would suggest you get started, then Amtram..

Amtram
08-07-10, 09:24 PM
I have absolutely no idea what you meant by that.

My irritation is directed entirely towards people like him who profit off of people who are most vulnerable. He tells parents that they have nothing to fear from pertussis, that it's a benign childhood disease, and that instead of getting one of those nasty, dangerous vaccinations, they should buy his supplements. And kids start dying from preventable disease. He takes sodium lauryl sulfate, which is a well-tested ingredient included in safe amounts in various cleaning products, and scares everyone with stories of how awful it is as a pure chemical in a powdered, breathable form, in large amounts - so he can sell his own cleaning products. He is constantly getting in legal trouble with the authors of studies that he's improperly used to support his products. He's telling people with cancer to stay away from oncologists and take homeopathic remedies instead (which he sells, of course.)

IOW, he doesn't care at all for real medicine or real science. He doesn't care about how he's directing people who need real medical care away from it. All he cares about is convincing you to buy what he's selling. If you get sick or die, no big deal. There are always more customers out there.

HE is the one that's getting me worked up. The fact that he's shown, through what you've posted, how effective his lies can be, is what's irritating. He is to medicine what the guy with the trenchcoat in the alley is to Rolex.

qinkin
08-08-10, 12:45 AM
Please state in a single sentence what I am supposed to get out of your last posting?

And you've yet to prove that he was selling any products in the original post about grass-fed beef.. I mean come on, you buy food don't you? You buy medicine, don't you.. Sure you read about the medicine and the food to make better decisions about what you are putting in your body...So what you are saying is a big bunch of hypocrisy... (you have to buy supplements no matter what anyway!).. you might as well at least understand why they are superior..

You do realize that Dr. Mercola was an honored guest on the Dr. Oz show, right? I remember watching that episode over the past year or so..

So actually the reputation can go both ways, but you aren't thinking large enough.. I'm sure there are many PhD's out there that could rip your statements a new one.. :D

HE is the one that's getting me worked up. The fact that he's shown, through what you've posted, how effective his lies can be, is what's irritating. He is to medicine what the guy with the trenchcoat in the alley is to Rolex. Chill out.

I sure am..

http://www.healthy-communications.com/slsmostdangerousirritant.html

Your scientific understanding is novice.. Obviously you haven't REALLY considered both sides...

Learning is supposed to be fun, life is supposed to be fun. . . Why put down something that does have validity?

I can't accommodate paranoid concerns..

Like I said, I know participating in the monetary system itself, is quite the sinful way of justifying any actions..Having said that, this world is quite the sinful place..How are you going to change that, Amtram? PM me if you need to, I can try to clarify where I am coming from

Amtram
08-08-10, 10:31 AM
I'm not trying to prove he was selling something when he talked about the grass-fed beef. What I'm saying is that he used a study that in no way supported his recommendation in a way that implied that it did. That is falsification of data. That is lying. What I'm saying is that he does this regularly to lead people away from science based medicine and towards one of the many products he sells. That is harmful.

My understanding of science is that if something is tested using the scientific method, is scrutinized by other scientists, passes peer review, and is published in a reputable journal, it's likely to be true. If something is "felt" or supported only by anecdotes, it's likely to be false. If this likely false thing is promoted as true in order to turn a profit, it's a lie.

There's a saying. . ."What do they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work? Medicine."

qinkin
08-08-10, 01:06 PM
Wiki: Conjugated linoleic acid. A powerful anticarcinogen from animal fat sources. (i guess skim milk would have no benefits and whole milk would have the most benefits/content-perhaps bypass the whole lactose/casein thing and just do pure butter):confused:

Conjugated Linoleic Acid Reduces Body Fat Mass in Overweight and Obese Humans<!-- null -->

<nobr>Henrietta Blankson</nobr>, <nobr>Jacob A. Stakkestad<sup>*</sup></nobr>, <nobr>Hans Fagertun<sup>http://jn.nutrition.org/emath/dagger.gif</sup></nobr>, <nobr>Erling Thom<sup>**</sup></nobr>, <nobr>Jan Wadstein<sup>http://jn.nutrition.org/emath/Dagger.gif</sup></nobr> and <nobr>Ola Gudmundsen<sup>2</sup></nobr>
<sup> </sup> Scandinavian Clinical Research AS, N-2027 Kjeller, Norway;<sup> </sup> <sup>**</sup> <sup> </sup> Parexel Medstat AS, Lillestrøm, Norway;<sup> </sup> <sup><sup>http://jn.nutrition.org/emath/dagger.gif</sup></sup> <sup> </sup> Scandinavian Statistical Services AS, N-2027 Kjeller, Norway;<sup> </sup> <sup>*</sup> <sup> </sup> Cecor AS, Haugesund, Norway; and<sup> </sup> <sup><sup>http://jn.nutrition.org/emath/Dagger.gif</sup></sup> <sup> </sup> Natural AS, Oslo, Norway

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/12/2943

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/12/2943/F2