Hi all,
I'm new here. Help!

The background:
A few months ago, I met a sweet man with ADD. I was attracted to his charm, spontaneity, humor, though his ADD was VERY obvious (he's been diagnosed, off and on meds--has been off during our time together). At the time we met, he told me he was at a low point in his life, and in the grip of an addiction. The addiction ruled his life.
I enjoyed (and still do enjoy) being with him, but gradually realized that a more serious relationship with was impossible for me because his life was (is) in TOTAL disarray.

The recent past:
Two weeks ago, he gave up his addiction. Hooray! It's a huge step. I'm very happy for him. He is finally "present" for me in a way he couldn't be while he was addicted. Of course, the problems (financial chaos, joblessness, responsibility, etc.) are still there.

I would like to be a friend to him and go out with him once in a while; I just can't sign up for the total "girlfriend" package. He has the usual ADD problems: self-centered, unreliable, mood swings, snapping... textbook.

SO, THE PROBLEM:
He is really, really improving! He is making great strides! No addiction relapse, he helps with dishes, he returns phone calls... but, he's still very far from what I'm looking for in a partner (compassion, support, stability).

I've tried to be clear that I do not want to be his "girlfriend"; the more I say no to him, the more effort he puts into "us." He knows there are problems, but thinks if he tries hard enough he can fix them. In my mind, it's like someone deciding they want to be in the Olympics this year without any previous training. Even if you practice hard everyday, and do your very best, it probably won't be enough to compete with athletes who have been training for many years.

I want to show support for his positive changes without giving him false hopes about our future together. I want to be a friend, not a co-dependent. How?

Well, it seems you've made up your mind so I guess you need to cut it off. It's really a shame because it sounds like he's done all this for you and cutting him off is real likely to send him back in the downward spiral. All I can think is that if he's not seeing a therapist that you could help get him into that so he's not left totally on his own. I've been in the same situation with my wife for 10 years and it was really hard for her to convince me that she was serious. We are still living together (as circumstances and convenience have it) and I'm thinking that is just not helpful. OTOH I'm not eager to move out on my own. She did help get me into therapy and so that's about all I can advise.

BTW here's a similar topic that has been discussed here recently:
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8501

You've got it exactly. My fears are all about the potential downward spiral. Let me be clear that I DO care about this man, even if he's not my "soulmate." I don't want anything bad for him. I don't feel I can break up with him if this is the price...

Like many ADDers, he has difficulty with relationships, even friendships. I feel like his only lifeline right now (though he has just started therapy again).

If he didn't have ADD, I wouldn't be tolerating a lot of his behaviors. However, since he does have ADD, I make some allowances for symptoms of his disease. One doesn't get mad at an epileptic for having seizures, etc... Still, I feel like I'm doing most of the compromising right now, more than I can continue to do...

How have others found balance between patience and accountability?

Maybe consider visiting his shrink with him or someone else who does couples counseling. Couples counseling can be break-up therapy also.

My wife also cares about me but just cannot compromise any more if I'm not able to meet her half way.

Welcome to the Forums Glinda!!!
I am a ADD guy with a non ADD spouse. We have had a lot of up and downs. I think it is great that you care about this guy and want to help him. I think the best thing you can do for him is to be honest with him. Maybe tell him what you told us. It is going to do neither of you any good if you pretend he has a chance with you. I think it might do him further harm in the long run. If he keeps changing for the better and then you tell him that might just hurt him more.

You need to also make it clear if you do things together that it is just as friends. If you don't he may not get that. We Adder's do not always pick up hints. Good luck to both of you.
Jim

I'm in the same boat Paul. This year is make or break for me. I'll evaluate things seriously in October. That will mark a year on meds for me.
It's scary stuff. I'm trying to understand more about what is good about being like I am. Many of the skills don't seem to be valuable or more to the point maybe "trusted".

For instance, I have become aware that my ten year old is very much like me. In realising this I have come to be much more effective in motivating her and building her self esteem. This is normally my wife's domain as I tend to lean to the harsh. I feel our marriage is at a dead end at the moment over this point. I know that so many things have changed and she has no awareness of the positive elements that have occurred. We have talked about it and she eventually loses her reason.

I have asked the kids with Pierrette in attendance if they prefer me now or like I was a year ago and without hesitation all three stated very clearly that they really like what's happened.

Pierrette is still mired in the damage I've caused along the way. It's amazing to me. It's like a black hole. She's a brilliant rational brain that has medals for her academics but as I wake up, she can't even talk things through to a consensice. It's scaring the skin off me but it also feels like just deserts. It also feels like growing up. I'm no longer terrified to leave or be left.

It's been a brutal run. I'm sure my wife's taste for relationships of significance are almost too sour to comprehend. She's weary after 18 years and three kids. She's a saint of a woman that needs some loving from me in ways that are central to her. I'm naturally as empathetic as a kick in the head so my work is cut out for me.

About 14 years study in twelve step recovery has tempered my ego some. That's the benchmark for my spiritual progress. My growth in spiritual participation equals a diminished ego. Your mileage may vary. I've picked up a portfolio of coping skills along the road too.

If he's anything like every other one week straight guy I've ever met he's got a year of a roller coaster ride ahead of him if he's acting in earnest. The memory of my first year dry has helped kept me stay straight. It was the ugliest period of my life.. before last fall.. but another story and that's in my intro I think..

You sound on a good road to me. Enjoy what you can. Don't do things you don't want to do. Look after yourself and don't get sucked into propping him up. If he is in trouble let him do it on his own.

You don't seem in trouble and you're likely more effective in positive ways for him if you continue to follow your dreams and develop a strong and happy life for yourself. If you have the stomach to watch his growing pain from a detached point of view he'll be better off for your fiendship. Gas it just before the first sign of abuse. ;)

I sure hope this helps some Glinda. ian.

Thanks for your thoughtful responses. Lots to ponder over here... I'm so grateful to have found this forum!!! I've been reading voraciously all day.
You have really helped me,
G.

- - - - - - - - -
Helping people find their own path to the Emerald City. (And their little dogs, too!)

Taking a little turn here....I used to be married to someone in AA. He was sort of nuts and I finally went to Alanon. It was wonderful and both my daughter and I learned about detachment and many other skills which I still use. That was 20 years ago. Now, I've been with a man who was diagnosed with ADD last year, is trying meds, etc., goes very up and down. He's in his early 60s and so has a lot of shame and baggage to deal with. Sometimes I don't know what to do. He gets on the computer and stays for six hours. Or he'll stay up late (on the computer) even though he has to get up at 5 a.m. He says he wishes I would gently urge him to come to bed, and or to get off the computer. That's not what I learned in Alanon about letting someone take responsibility for their actions. I'm brand new here, too, and may have just butted into someone else's thread and if so, I apologize.

alagirl you are welcome to post here or to start your own theads. We all have to start somewhere. There are moderators to help you move and merge posts and threads that stray from the topic. I wouldn't worry too much about taking over just yet. ;) I'm just a big tease so please don't take my ribbing seriously.

Your stories are valuable. I hope you can relate them to your progress with ADD/HD and join us in moving our lives forward. Post ofen, post well.
Cheers! ian.

Thanks, Ian. I thought your note to Glinda was wonderful. Some things you said about your wife made me think immediately of my guy's ex. She dealt the best she could with his undiagnosed ADD for almost 20 years. They have kids, they talk quite a bit now and I hope they'll be able to forgive each other. She finally threw him out four years ago. When I think back about marrying a (recovering) alcoholic, I'm afraid I would do it again...I learned and grew more than I ever had, even if there was pain involved. Glinda, I think you've made a wise choice for you. You've probably motivated him to try more changes than he would have overwise. Hopefully, he'll keep progressing, even with you choosing friendship. At 61, I know there are no easy relationships, at least for me. I think each person has to decide which problems they want in their lives. Very level-headed -- someday you'll probably decide on different challenges. With the very short perspective of 1 1/2 years, I think I'm choosing a relationship with a man who has ADD and huge baggage and yet -- someone who seems my soulmate. Reading the books and reading these boards is a wonder, isn't it? Otherwise, it would be hard to be compassionate and I would think I'd hooked up with somebody who just didn't like helping around the house and was incredibly absent-minded. He's finally on meds, which are working somewhat, and seeing a counselor who has ADD and tells him he needs to develop a compassionate heart (for himself and others). I haven't found a "normal" person yet (when you get close to sombody), and as always, being in a relationship makes we work on myself. I think this is it for me -- I love him and want to be here.

alagirl I hope you can post often. You are an inspiration to guys like me. Thanks for taking the time to write.
Cheers! ian.

Hi Alagirl...
It's really interesting that you mention AA. My mom was in AA, and it became our family church. While I have never been to Alanon, I was raised with a 12-step philosophy which is deeply ingrained.
Concious of my history, I am very cautious about being a co-dependent or, worse, an ENABLER [ominous "da da daaaaa" music here].
With this guy, I just don't know where to draw that line between supportive and enabling, or compassionate tolerance and tough love.

As I type this, I realize that my advice to myself would be that it's not my job to "train" him, and in some sense that's true. However, I also see him looking to me for guidance—literally asking for "cue cards"—and I want to help him if I can.

BTW, he continues to make HUGE and deliberate positive strides. He keeps throwing himself harder and harder into this relationship, even as I tell him my limits ... it's almost eerie. I tell him what I'm looking for in a guy, and he turns 180 degrees to becomes it (more demonstrative, more helpful, more positive, less critical...you name it) but I don't really trust it because it feels like a performance. Like he's becomming a Stepford Boyfriend. I'm a trying to enjoy the bubble, rather than waiting for it to burst... yet I have no doubt that it will burst eventually.

Glinda you sound to be on firm ground. Patience and time will tell the tale. Any time you feel like flushing out details of the "E" word, or any other unmentionables please do. It will help all that have ears to hear and especially for those that might not be familiar with the predictable patterns associated with involvement with addicts of all kinds.

Issues of the heart are such tough ones to get a bead on. Bubble or not, you sound like you are suitably detached. I sure feel your pain in knowing that it can all go wrong in a hurry though. I wish you well and I would hope you get what you need.

I appreciate your comments here. Thanks.
Cheers! ian.

Instant changes would make me nervous; I think you're right to be wary. I'm normally an optimist, but most of us don't make permanent changes that way.
No, I don't know where to draw the line either. On one hand, I try to get my guy to pay attention to what makes him feel better, like "notice that you were really down, we had a couple of friends over for dinner, and now you're feeling great." Or: "you were tired and didn't want to go to a meeting, then you went and now you're on a roll." Sometimes he doesn't seem to make the connection so that he would want to re-create those circumstances again. He doesn't feel the meds doing him any good, but I see a huge difference and try to reinforce that. He feels more solid, has a much better sense of humor and is more loving. What I don't want to get into are typical mother roles -- telling him when to go to bed or cleaning up after him or have you called your kids, etc. Laundry, for instance -- I do mine. His piles up, but I don't care. When they're finally too dirty, he washes them.
I was around AA for a long time and loved it -- seems a good way to live. I do still try to follow it.

OK, I'VE HAD IT. I'M DONE.
The tensions, the explosions, the blame... it's my "tone" that sets him off, or I'm too happy, too flip, too quiet, too... and then the rant begins, "110%" my fault for not changing when he warns me...
I've made many, many allowances for his ADD and other issues, but I am exhausted by the constant assaults. It's just too much work to love this man.
I feel like I've failed.
I know his anger comes from suffering and rejection, and it's not personal towards me.
But darn it, when someone is yelling at you about how horrible and insensitive and WRONG you are after you've had a long day, it sure feels personal...
I wanted to be stronger than this, but I'm not.

Understood Glinda. I wouldn't be able to muster much sympathy or support for anyone who attacked me like that.

OK, I'VE HAD IT. I'M DONE.
The tensions, the explosions, the blame... it's my "tone" that sets him off, or I'm too happy, too flip, too quiet, too... and then the rant begins, "110%" my fault for not changing when he warns me...
I've made many, many allowances for his ADD and other issues, but I am exhausted by the constant assaults. It's just too much work to love this man.
I feel like I've failed.
I know his anger comes from suffering and rejection, and it's not personal towards me.
But darn it, when someone is yelling at you about how horrible and insensitive and WRONG you are after you've had a long day, it sure feels personal...
I wanted to be stronger than this, but I'm not.

you are very strong because you know when to leave. you are strong enough to take care of yourself. being strong doesn't mean not taking abuse personally. being strong is knowing when to call it abuse, and saving yourself. to realize that what he's doing *is* abusive and there is *no* excuse. we might understand why, but, we don't excuse it. we may even believe that he is a good person who is behaving badly. but, all the suffering and rejection in the world doesn't excuse his behavior. he is not the victim any longer, now he is the bully. he may not see that as a choice that he's made, but, it is. being hurt is *not* an acceptable reason to hurt others.

in ian's (itschaotic) first post he wrote, "Gas it just before the first sign of abuse." this is it, girl! gas it and go. don't look back.

if he's abusive and if you act like it's not abuse, or go back for more (i.e. forgive him, or convince yourself that he has changed), then you are teaching him how to treat you.

if, instead, he learns from you that being verbally abusive = losing the relationship, then you have taught him an important aspect of being in a healthy relationship, respect.

i realize that this is a complex issue, people don't chose to be abused. they have learned how to be treated, just as those who are abusive have learned how to treat others. it is *very* hard to learn that you deserve to be treated with kindness and respect if that has not been your experience. you can start by treating *yourself* with kindness and respect.

you have not failed,you are not to blame for his tirade, you are perfectly justified at being angry for being yelled at. you don't deserve to be treated this way!!! you should be angry! 3 cheers for well-placed anger, hip hip, hooray!

you are "done" because you have the strength and courage to say, "ENOUGH!"

i'm glad you are taking care of yourself, glinda.

bravo. wheezie. (who is trying to make sure that she applies this advice to herself as well :rolleyes: )

I wish you well Glinda.
I hope you can stick around and continue to post here. I would hope by doing so you might be able to avoid some of those things that draw you into painful situations like you have been going through.
Easy does it.
ian

Thank you all for your posts. I am really grateful for your support. I questioning myself right now, feeling like a horrible person for turning my back on someone in need. Even if it is a demanding, self-centered, angry someone in need.

Now the phone calls have started... "You can throw me out of your life later, but right now, I NEED someone to help me," "I CAN'T get through this on my own," etc. etc.

(He's moving, which is his excuse for being a super-jerk lately.)

Am I a total doormat?
Or, if I turn my back now, am I heartless?

As long as you tell him your reasons I agree it'll be better for him as others mentioned. It's one thing for him to be absent minded or annoyingly hyper or any other number of ADD symptoms but I know I could not tolerate being attacked like that. It is inexcusable and intolerable.

Glinda,
You are not heartless. I think you need to move on. He is trying to guilt you into staying. I can relate to what you are going through even though I have ADD. Well I will back off, but I think everyone has given you good advice.

Am I a total doormat?... NO!

Or, if I turn my back now, am I heartless?... NO!

Imagine what it would be like to have a partner that was more of a help to your life than a hinderance.
You'll be fine. Break the chain and get on with your life. Or not, but whatever the case my gut has never lied to me.
ian

Hi Alagirl...
It's really interesting that you mention AA. My mom was in AA, and it became our family church. While I have never been to Alanon, I was raised with a 12-step philosophy which is deeply ingrained.
Concious of my history, I am very cautious about being a co-dependent or, worse, an ENABLER [ominous "da da daaaaa" music here].
With this guy, I just don't know where to draw that line between supportive and enabling, or compassionate tolerance and tough love.


i'm not very familiar with the AA terminology other than to recognize it when i hear it. so, i'm not sure how grey the line is between being supportive and enabling. but, what makes sense to me is that you can be supportive while setting boundaries. if he can't respect your boundaries, then that is a big red flag.

you are not a doormat and you are not heartless. you've told him that you won't allow him to treat you like a doormat. this isn't heartless, this is taking care of yourself. setting boundaries. he is the one not respecting your boundaries. he's playing on your emotions and your compassion. he is telling you what he "needs" and not respecting *your* needs.

i *really* believe that in order to help the ones we love, we need to take care of ourselves first. like the flight attendents who instruct you, "in an emergency, if you are traveling with a child, first place the oxygen mask on your face, then help your child." this seems wrong to any parent. until you stop to consider that a child with an oxygen mask in place and an unconscience parent (whose oxygen mask is *not* in place) is in *big* trouble. it may feel selfish to put yourself first, but, if you don't, how can you take care of anyone else?

take care of you. my best advice.

stay strong. wheezie.

I wonder, are boundries and ADD mutually exclusive?
They seem to be in this case, or at least he thinks they are.
He wants my help, yet can't (won't) agree to not yell at me while I'm helping him, because he can't work within boundries like other people, blah blah blah...

OK well, here's another thought. Not easy though.

Theoretically it'd be possible for you to spend some time with him AND continue to set your limits and enforce them. Who knows, maybe it'd even be a useful exercise for you to learn to be more assertive. Sounds like he's playing some really heavy head trips on you though... finding your weak spots and tormenting you, making you feel worse as a way of defending his ego. So theoretically you might be able to just stand your ground like a firm parent who is calmly in control and very patient. Either he changes his behavior in time or he will get sick of not getting the response he's looking for from you and he will get tired of it and leave, looking for someone else to torment.

I think the enabler scenario is when he picks on you to get a reaction like a bully and you react so that reinforces him. It's working and you are allowing it. Now I'm not for a minute implying that this is your fault. We don't blame the victims of bullies. It is possible for those victims to learn self defense though.

One way might be to either leave or demand that he leaves when this situation arises. The other option is to sit there and work through it but when people are emotional this can be nearly impossible to do in a productive manner. Demand a time-out to let the emotions calm for a little while then come back and try to discuss the issue in a calmer frame of mind.

But really this is ridiculous for a relationship, it'd be like you are in a parent child relationship and that's totally wrong. But if you were to consider continuing for a while, this is the only way I can imagine it working.

But, I think you are perfectly justified in simply walking away at this point. The above suggestion might be a really bad idea. It probably is... just trying to imagine another way out.

I really appreciate your creativity here... looking beyond the binary ON or OFF approach I tend to use. I am so grateful for all of your insights.
I've agreed to help him move tonight, so it's a great opportunity to try this approach. The exercise for me is keeping my patience and objective, rather than getting defensive and reactive. Deep breaths. As alagirl pointed out earlier, it's about working on me, not him.
I haven't agreed to anything beyond tonight, so I'll have a chance to evaluate...

I wonder, are boundries and ADD mutually exclusive?
They seem to be in this case, or at least he thinks they are.
He wants my help, yet can't (won't) agree to not yell at me while I'm helping him, because he can't work within boundries like other people, blah blah blah...

no. i don't think ADD and boundaries are mutually exclusive. it may be harder because of ADD, but, there is nothing we "can't" do. if i am aware that something i do is causing someone else pain, i try to change it.

for me the issue was/is irratibility - especially at the end of the day. i didn't even realize i was doing it. my husband would only bring it up after-the-fact, when i'd eventually notice that he had gotten *extremly* quiet and i'd ask him what was wrong. i would have no clue what he was talking about. "who me? snappy?" :eek:

so, what has worked for me and my family is that when i start to get short and snappy, they put their "crab hands" in the air and wave their "pincers", it's my signal that i am crabby.

i also try to recognize when i'm starting to feel irratible and take my meds. i know that when i'm feeling irratable, i get snappy, even if *i* can't hear my tone. i just have to look at my child's face to tell.

my point is that your bf says that boundaries are hard for him to maintain. good. he realizes it's a problem, that's the first step. now he needs to figure out how to change, not make excuses. if he understands that when he yells at you he hurts you. then he should figure out a way to stop hurting you. this is where input from a good therapist can help.

and all this is well and good. but, this is stuff he needs to work on for himself.

you wrote "it's about working on me, not him." i'm wondering what you see that you need to "work on". have you defined that for yourself? if not, it might be worth thinking about what specific changes you'd like to see in yourself. and, while you're at it, think about your assets too. ;)

take care, glinda.

wheezie

I LOVE the crab claws! I'm going to use that at my house, so my daughter can let me know I'm being crabby.
For me, humor is sooooooooooooooooo valuable in dealing with emotions.
I really appreciate this visual, wheezie. Thanks.

you're welcome. :)

it is pretty funny, but, when i'm *in* a crabby mood, it is sometimes hard not to get crabby when they do that.... :rolleyes: so, i tend to clam up.... (sorry 'bout that bad pun, i just can't help myself sometimes.)

i can't get too mad though, since i am the one who asked them to do it in the first place!

I just wanted to take a minute to tell you all how helpful this forum has been for me, and how many times I've come back to read over what you've written here.

You've given me a lot of strength and, most importantly, perspective. I can't even count the number of times over the past week that I summon your words to mind...

It's too bad that things didn't work out, but I am confident now that the problem wasn't my lack of patience or understanding. I am walking away without regrets.

I feel I have been among wise friends here, and am grateful.

Thanks for the update Glinda!

Life moves on....

Thanks for the update Glinda. I think you did the right thing!

Thanks for the feedback. Here's to healing. :)

Having trouble following the way this thing works.
I hope you received the last e-mail.
I desperately need help.
I no longer know what to do.
I signed an offer on a new house to get out. I have to give final acceptance tomorrow. I love this man with all my heart but I can not go on like this anymore - I wish i did not love him. This is tearing me to bits. I can hardly function anymore. What was it that finally made you realize you needed help?

Hi Dianne: Could you tell us a little about your situation? If you'lll write it out, I"m sure some folks will jump in and try to help you.....

I hope you find some peace, Dianne. :)

diannelynnep wrote:
> I hope you received the last e-mail.
that'd be this message:
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=98104#post98104
and this:
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=98090#post98090


I hope things sort out for you. I'd vote for going ahead with the house purchase but that's foolish optimistic advice. We just sold our dream house after 11 years & maybe that's necessary or maybe it was a mistake, only time will tell.