View Full Version : Existentialism


EshkaronsEngine
11-06-10, 04:53 PM
I am ashamed I do not know more about this subject as from the little reading I've done I probably agree with this take on REALITY. I will have to do some reading but I do know that Søren Kierkegaard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B8ren_Kierkegaard) and Friedrich Nietzsche (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche) are 2 important thinkers in this field and will be doing some reading. Please feel free to post your existential angst here anytime:p

StoicNate
11-06-10, 05:06 PM
I don't know what to do with my life.

EshkaronsEngine
11-06-10, 05:57 PM
I don't know what to do with my life.
I figure one must find their PASSION. I love systems and trying to figure them out - maybe even hacking them so I do my best to play as many games as I can to familiarize myself with all outcomes so when I need an answer I will have one. Good luck stoic:cool:

tweetiebirdk
11-06-10, 11:48 PM
ya I dont know much about it but it seems interesting, would one find stuff on this in psychology books? its kind used in psychology is it ?

I would like to do some light reading on it actually,
if I find something I will read I think Ive heard of other authors who are associated with it ...

peripatetic
11-07-10, 12:03 AM
hey esh,

actually, nietzsche was not an existentialist--although there are some themes in his work that make people connect him to it. kierkegaard certainly was, though.

were you wanting to discuss themes in existentialist philosophy...or more just expressions of angst? if the former, i likely have far more to contribute given my background. if the latter...i'm going to rein it in for the moment;)

Abi
11-07-10, 10:45 AM
Awww peri... but the latter sound SO much jucier...

EshkaronsEngine
11-07-10, 01:53 PM
hey esh,

actually, nietzsche was not an existentialist--although there are some themes in his work that make people connect him to it. kierkegaard certainly was, though.

were you wanting to discuss themes in existentialist philosophy...or more just expressions of angst? if the former, i likely have far more to contribute given my background. if the latter...i'm going to rein it in for the moment;)
Definitely the former. As usual I have skimmed through this material before and onto shinier subjects so would be very grateful if you took the time to school us if you had the time. Actually though I'm also experiencing quite abit of angst right now. I'm 37 and haven't accomplished squat concerning a rewarding career so I leave this definitely open for those who wish to discuss their existential angst as well.

peripatetic
12-24-10, 07:30 PM
hey eshy,

i promise i'll post something of substance when i return from shopping, but in the meantime i'll leave you a song;)

it's by the cure and based on an existentialist-themed novel. can you name the novel?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh01Pil7vj4&feature=related

EshkaronsEngine
12-24-10, 07:52 PM
I have no clue. I really have to start reading some more. I would love to read some Kierkegaard. I hope u don't experience any existential angst out there with the shopping hordes. Good luck;)

Sandy4957
12-24-10, 07:59 PM
Aujourd'hui, maman est morte. Ou peut-etre hier, je ne sais pas. J'ai recu un telegramme de l'asile: "Mere decedee. Enterrement demain. Sentiments distingues." Cela ne veut rien dire. C'etait peut-etre hier.

Albert Camus, L'etranger.

peripatetic
12-24-10, 08:00 PM
since you're studying french, and it's originally in french: l'etranger, by camus. it's not the greatest novel ever written, in my opinion, but it's short sweet (well, as sweet as it can be given topic) and hits on a couple of key themes, not to mention that what the protagonist claims is his only wish in the end is classic.

camus and sartre were VERY close until their famous falling out over political differences, among other things, and sartre's very public dissolution of their friendship. sartre is one of the philosophers most rightfully associated with existentialism and i'll talk about something from his seminal work (being and nothingness) upon return...but you may need to remind me again because i'm a bit loopy with the whole shopping b.s. and so forth:)

PS: camus' works are widely available in translation, too;)

peripatetic
12-24-10, 08:01 PM
Aujourd'hui, maman est morte. Ou peut-etre hier, je ne sais pas. J'ai recu un telegramme de l'asile: "Mere decedee. Enterrement demain. Sentiments distingues." Cela ne veut rien dire. C'etait peut-etre hier.

Albert Camus, L'etranger.

voila! exactement!!! bravo, sandy! :D

peripatetic
12-24-10, 08:16 PM
now that the author is established, here's the section i referenced as the "classic" wish (in the gallimard edition):

Pour que tout soit consommé, pour que je me sente moins seul, il me restait à souhaiter qu’il y ait beaucoup de spectateurs le jour de mon exécution et qu’ils m’accueillent avec des cris de haine.

(for all to be consummated, for me to feel less alone, i have only the wish that there be a large crowd of spectators the day of my execution and that they greet me with cries of hate. --yeah...that's *rough* translation....but i'm ridiculously late, so it is what it is :eek: :D)

Sandy4957
12-24-10, 08:30 PM
Not one of my favorite novels, but definitely one of my favorite opening lines of a novel. I like it best in French, because it sounds pretty. But if it was a photograph, it would be a grey shot of, say, the side of a concrete asylum wall or something. It's very bleak.

Here's my rough translation, trying to catch the flavor:

Today mom died. Or perhaps yesterday, I don't know. I received a telegram from the asylum: "Mother dead. Interrment tomorrow. Sorry." There was nothing more that wanted saying. It was perhaps yesterday.

I like how flat it is. Mind you, when this stuff is put into a film it always makes me want to kill myself!!!

Sandy4957
12-24-10, 08:42 PM
Wow, Peri, I just watched the video. So that's a recent song by The Cure? An interesting and likely inflammatory move on their part, don't you think? I mean, I get that they're referencing the book (it's not like they're being subtle about it or anything), but a good portion of their listening audience isn't going to pick that up, don't you think?

Ok, I'm going to get back to work on something that I'd like to finish tonight. Check back with you guys later...

EshkaronsEngine
12-24-10, 09:30 PM
(for all to be consummated, for me to feel less alone, i have only the wish that there be a large crowd of spectators the day of my execution and that they greet me with cries of hate. --yeah...that's *rough* translation....but i'm ridiculously late, so it is what it is :eek: :D)

Maybe I'm not an existentialist. For some reason I want to rule the world but I don't give a **** whether anyone remembers me or not. It's like I just don't care that I ever existed.

I am here now I want to have as much fun as ever and I don't care if anyone agrees or not. I exist therefor I may do as I wish according to the rules.

I think there is such beauty in not being. I think that is why I cherish sleep so much it's like I'm not there.

I will love and explore and create till the end and after I don't care if there is any remembrance of me personally though I would like my creations and ideas to live on.

EshkaronsEngine
12-24-10, 09:38 PM
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnKLfj6zAnI">Me 2 honey</a>

StoicNate
12-24-10, 09:39 PM
Wow, Peri, I just watched the video. So that's a recent song by The Cure?

Nope, it's an older 1980's song by The Cure.

Sandy4957
12-24-10, 10:35 PM
I wondered. Do they still play together? The YouTube video that I watched mentioned something about 2010.

anonymouslyadd
12-24-10, 11:22 PM
Existentialism, from my perspective comes through psychology, which seems to be a little different from where this conversation is going. Existentialism is the search for meaning. At a therapeutic perspective, it means to find meaning in suffering. We had to read Frankel's Book Man's Search For Meaning in a special topics in psych course.

It's an amazing text about a psychiatrists journey as a european jew thrown into concentration camps. He talks about his attitude and really the attitude of others was a major difference in them living or dying.

EshkaronsEngine
12-25-10, 12:02 AM
Existentialism, from my perspective comes through psychology, which seems to be a little different from where this conversation is going. Existentialism is the search for meaning. At a therapeutic perspective, it means to find meaning in suffering. We had to read Frankel's Book Man's Search For Meaning in a special topics in psych course.

It's an amazing text about a psychiatrists journey as a european jew thrown into concentration camps. He talks about his attitude and really the attitude of others was a major difference in them living or dying.
that was an awesome book. I was so touched when he found relief daydreaming about his dead wife. It really comes down to the Shawshank Redemption quote "Either get busy living or get busy dying" This is LIFE!!! ladies and gentlemen. This is our moment in the sun. Love, Live and Laugh at all the wonderment of being alive:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

anonymouslyadd
12-25-10, 12:27 AM
I love Shawshank Redemption, not to get off topic, but that is an awesome movie. I love the narration by Morgan Freeman. Tim Robbins plays Andy Duphrene. He says, "remember Red, Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things." It all culminates into an amazing ending, which I wil not describe here! You all most see it.

APSJ
12-25-10, 12:31 AM
"I Am a Strange Loop" was one of the most thought provoking books I've read in a long time....he makes a very good case. Would highly recommend it.

Scooter77
12-25-10, 07:13 AM
Existentialism is philosophy rather than psychology, but it's a bit of a blurry boundary.

Frankl was looking at how differently people react to horrendous situations.

I'm a Sartre fan, I know a lot of people find him rather bleak but I don't seem to take him the same way.
Being and nothingness is a personal favorite, I love his passage about the look of the other, I'd have to actually get up and walk over to the bookshelf to quote it though....and it's just a bit far right now....!

peripatetic
12-25-10, 08:25 AM
I'm a Sartre fan, I know a lot of people find him rather bleak but I don't seem to take him the same way.
Being and nothingness is a personal favorite, I love his passage about the look of the other, I'd have to actually get up and walk over to the bookshelf to quote it though....and it's just a bit far right now....!

i've observed this tendency as well, and yet he said he never had an unhappy day in his life. "the look" is one of his more interesting concepts. as long as we're sharing favorites, mine is "le néant est au sein même de l'être, en son cœur, comme un ver." barnes translates it as "nothingness lies coiled in the heart of being, like a worm." that's the one thing about her translation that's always bugged me, actually...

fantastic to know there's another who enjoys sartre:)

EshkaronsEngine
12-25-10, 03:14 PM
"nothingness lies coiled in the heart of being, like a worm."

OMFG! this is so true. I am absolutely in love with nothingness. I feel at the heart of everything is nothing. Like there is only POTENTIAL!!!!!:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

peripatetic
12-25-10, 04:25 PM
well, there is facticity...you are thrown into a world not entirely of your choosing...but,

YES!!! you create YOU :D

i'm so excited to discuss this more with you, but first, there is brunch;)

merry christmas seems entirely inappropriate and yet so ironic it's not, so un-ironic it is, on a thread where we're discussing sartre:rolleyes:

Scooter77
12-25-10, 05:08 PM
Hell is other people ;-)
...on so many levels - Sartre was a genius

EshkaronsEngine
12-27-10, 06:01 PM
I am just starting to read Kierkegaard's To Will One Thing and already I disagree with him.

He says"How wretched and miserable it is to find in a person many good intentions but few good deeds.

For me personally the IDEA is all that is necessary. I have many ideas on how to save the world yet I do not have the power to initiate them.

I believe in good and usually think the best of everyone. I believe this is enough.

I believe actions are a byproduct of fervent thought.

Therefore without thought there is no action.

Thought trumps action. Action is but an over-spilling of thought.

stef
12-27-10, 06:23 PM
i've observed this tendency as well, and yet he said he never had an unhappy day in his life. "the look" is one of his more interesting concepts. as long as we're sharing favorites, mine is "le néant est au sein même de l'être, en son cœur, comme un ver." barnes translates it as "nothingness lies coiled in the heart of being, like a worm." that's the one thing about her translation that's always bugged me, actually...

fantastic to know there's another who enjoys sartre:)

I cannot believe, I don't know more about this topic!
I don't enjoy Sartre's novels they are hard to read (really I get stuck in the bleakness. )
actually he was happier than you would have thought. He really loved comic books.
there is nothing about "lying coiled" in the original text. it's more like "deep within/at the core/at the heart of. "

EshkaronsEngine
12-27-10, 06:39 PM
Now I'm skimming Kierkegaard's Truth Is The Way and like this much better. "You certainly cannot sleep or dream yourself into the truth. No, you must be tried, do battle, and suffer if you are to acquire truth for yourself. It is sheer illusion to think that in relation to truth there is an abridgment, a short cut that dispenses with the necessity of struggling for it."


"Truth is not a matter of knowing this or that but being in the truth."

"when one is to be in the truth, to merely "know" the truth is insufficient - it is an untruth. For knowing the truth is something that follows as a matter of course from being in the truth, not the other way around."

"To properly know the truth is to be in the truth; it is to have the truth for one's life. This always costs a struggle. Any other kind of knowledge is a falsification. In short, the truth, if it is really there, is a being, a life(example peripatetic:p). That is, I only know the truth when it becomes a life in me."

"The truth is lived before it is understood. It must be fought for, tested, and appropriated. Truth is the way. And when the truth is the way, then the way cannot be shortened or drop out unless the truth itself is distorted or drops out. Anyone will easily understand it if he just gives himself to it."

EshkaronsEngine
12-27-10, 07:12 PM
Kierkegaard's Human Condition.

A revolutionary age is an age of action; ours is the age of advertisement and publicity.

We are a composite of the lower and the higher, and from birth on we are almost completely in the power of the lower. The pleasant - and the unpleasant - are what determine us, and it remains just about that way throughout life for most of us.

In a certain sense all of us are running. We are running after money,m status, pleasure. We run with gossip, rumors, foul talk, with lies, fiction, and trivialities. We run now to the east and now to the west, panting on our activistic errands, But we are not running on the racetrack.

There is a lot of talk about the danger and faithlessness that exist in the world. But let us never forget that every person has in himself the most dangerous traitor of all.

When a person struggles with the future, he learns that however strong he is otherwise, there is one enemy that is stronger - himself. There is one enemy he cannot conquer by himself, and that is himself.

When people or when a generation live merely for finite ends, life becomes a whirlpool, meaninglessness, and wither a despairing arrogance or a despairing anguish. There must be weight - just as the clock or the clock's works need a heavey weight in order to run properly, and the ship needs ballast.

The result of human progress is that everything becomes thinner and thinner. The result of divine providence is to make everything deeper and more inward.

A person's conception of god is essentially determined by the kind of person he is.

Deep within every human being lies the dread of being alone in the world, forgotten by god, overlooked among the tremendous household of millions upon millions. That fear is kept away by turning to those whom one feels bound to as friend or family' but the dread is nevertheless there and on hardly dares think of what would happen if all the rest were taken away.

Some birds take off quietly and neatly from the branch on which thry are perching and ascend heavenward in their flight, proudly, boldly. Others, like crows, for example, make a big fuss when they are about to fly. They lift one foot and then promptly grab on again, and no flight takes place. In so many ways we are just like this when it comes to achieving movement from understanding to action. A few arrive at the proper understanding of what they should do - and then they hold back

SB_UK
12-28-10, 03:52 PM
I think I wanted the word 'existentialism' to refer to the individual's own self-awareness that the face which he sees in the mirror is functionally separated from the eyes (of mind) which look.

Kinda' like the lyrics from Talking Heads 'Once in a Lifetime' :
And you might say to yourself - this is not your beautiful house.
And you might say to yourself - this is not your beautiful wife.

I think I wanted the term 'existentialism' to relate to the individual reaching an understanding that they themselves are alien to the person which they have
(up until that moment of realization)
believed themself to be.

Self-awareness of their own existence through recognizing that the mind bears the third person perspective over the first person perspective (the animal).

To the animal - the external world is real; not so to man.

The mind extends reality.

SB_UK
12-28-10, 04:17 PM
A little more detail -
the image which is conjured up by the phrase 'ghost in the shell'.

The shell pursues its pre-programmed agenda of tidying the house, feeding itself at appropriate times, meeting people on Friday night -
whilst the ghost watches on wondering whether the shell needs it.

Whether the ghost belongs with the shell ?
Whether the ghost should attempt to enrich the life of the shell ?
Of the relationship between the ghost and the shell ?

The ghost feels a sense of greater intelligence to the shell - though isn't sure what to do with the greater insight which its perspective offers.

In many ways the ghost has the innocence and frailty of a child -

'as it says to itself "well - how did I get here?"

... ... ... and what should I do with myself now I'm here ?

Should I tell the shell that the house doesn't need to be tidied, that I'm rarely hungry and that I really don't enjoy socializing
each and every Friday night ?

Dare the ghost empty the shell of the little order in its life ?

And in its place ?

EshkaronsEngine
12-28-10, 11:34 PM
In many ways the ghost has the innocence and frailty of a child -

'as it says to itself "well - how did I get here?"

... ... ... and what should I do with myself now I'm here ?



Dare the ghost empty the shell of the little order in its life ?

And in its place ?

This describes my very fabric. Just yesterday I was talking to my cousin and saying how I wish I was invisible. I only want to be spirit really. This house I'm carrying around just gets in the way.

I have discovered something. I have found the crux between the shell and the ghost. this is love. I have loved someone so profoundly recently that I could not bear it. My request for physical bonding was rejected and I was forced to renounce the shell.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yaEwcmrR4Q&list=PL2B57576421A86EE0&index=0">Long Live My Host The Ghost!</a>

SB_UK
12-29-10, 08:52 AM
love

Love of another
Is this a love for their physical aspect (looks) or their mental aspect (sense of humour) ? #1 and #2 as cited in Cosmopolitan magazine of the nature of why he was attracted to you.

Neither.

Human beings can be made to look (effectively) the same.
Human beings can (given an appropriate education) become (ostensibly) as intelligent as one another.

What belies love ?
The negotiation of male and female into a perfectly synchronized complementary binding pair.

The standing wave - the non-destructive overlay of two equal and opposite wave fronts.
Balance.

The evolutionary motif.

A higher love
Spirituality (upon balance).
The love of God; to worship God.

Love - evolutionary carrot or stick ?
Both.

eg ~s (http://www.romancestuck.com/articles/chemistryoflove.htm)~Some scientists believe that after a certain period, from 18 months to 4 years, one's body gets used to these love stimulants.
After building up a tolerance to uppers like PEA, passionate romances can cool into what Helen Fisher, author of "Anatomy of Love" calls "attachment."
In this phase of the relationship, your brain produces endorphins, brain opiates more like morphine than speed. "Unlike PEA," says Fisher, "they calm the mind, kill pain, and reduce anxiety."

Reduced levels of PEA in ADDers -> stick.
Long term pair bonding required to stabilize male and female ADDer.

The quote above suggests the course of love involves the shift from stimulant (PEA) to opiate production.

An insensitivity to stimulant medication (my personal experience also) - combined with the adoption of a Transcendental state of mind -
Transcendental - Dissociative - the opiate.

The mind is unable to hazard a guess as to exactly how much and what kind of information it requires for it to stop enquiry; the mind has no intrinsic understanding of its own 'death'.

We, however, do wonder when the questions will end.

Drawn to the mating ritual to stabilize the individual within a long term pair bond -
- and then when bound in an effective standing wave -
- achieving a state of mind which transcends the mind.

A state of mind in which the mind no longer asks questions - because the actual point of the human life cycle is seen to achieve a state of mind in which an answerable question (how much information is enough ?) no longer plagues a structure (the human mind) whose self-definition is to acquire understanding.

The standing wave overlay - of male and female juxtaposed waves - I'm pretty sure - operates to drive an oscillation which emanates from the pineal gland.

The oscillation has a characteristic frequency (alpha EEG) - where the oscillation which is driven occurs at the same frequency which has been defined for the orgasm (8 - 12 Hz).

Pleasant feelings are grounded in physics and not in chemistry.

Chemistry opens the door to a physical phenomenon.

Simplifying

ADDers are born incomplete and require long term pair bond formation for stability.

Once bonded - the duals upon duality formation exhibit an emergent property of resonant synchrony with the fundamental substrate or Planck length standing wave which we call God.
The spiritual state.

And so what role the mind ?
Bear an imbalanced mind and duality formation is blocked.

Duality formation requires humility.

So what role the body and mind ?
Necessary structures for achieving the spiritual state -
though care ! - the belief that the individual's body or mind is better than even one other person fixes the ego (delusion) -
- prevents duality formation - the spiritual (dissociative,Transcendental) state.

~*~

Exactly as EE states the feeling is of wishing to be spirit alone.

The spirit alone though representing the duality of body and mind.

Both body and mind - at duality formation dissipate to yield spirit.

Exactly as EE states - it is possible to experience life as spirit alone -
and that when there - we find ourself in the promised land -

in a beautiful place out in the country -

- free

at last.

SB_UK
12-29-10, 12:11 PM
Though why does an understanding of the freedom which we seek have to bring on such feelings of despair ?

We've really some distance to go.

Being able to live with the simplicity of a monk of whichever religion in a Western World paradigm where people have been trained to lie to and cheat one another.

Living without ownership in a Western World paradigm where ownership is violently striven towards.

Does the despair come from knowing how difficult it'll prove to turn people around ?

Or is it that the dissociative state can't be activated with the speed of the flick of a switch ?

it's rather painful to think about how far we are from a human-friendly society - where nobody bears any dependence on any other person -
- where all contributions are freely given.

No strings attached.

Can't get the image of the London Underground during rush hour out of my mind.

Close to condemned multi-storey inner city tower blocks housing thousands of people on either side of the train track -
- set out of sight - a little further back - mansions of similar size inhabited by just a couple of people.

It'd be nice if we could locate a switch labelled 'dissociate' for when the mind turns itself to solutions to seemingly insurmountable problems.

How do we correct inequality ?

Particularly so when driving inequality is sought by the primitive mind into which we are born and which is retained by many to their death -
- the test -
a taste for competition.

The lawyer who strives to beat another.
The politician whose party strives to overcome another.

Any individual who is able to operate happily within a paradigm which involves competition between people
- where one gains at the expense of another
- is broken

... ... where ... ...
competition is the paradigm which underlies the entire global economic system.

Competition between men - where one gains at the other's expense shares the same primitive principle which the majority (I think) recognize applies to war.

Competitive sport, Competition amongst industries, Competition in war -
all the same in principle.

The creditor - whether corporation, bank or country which is poised ready to place debtors into slavery.
No different to the country which invades another and then steals its commodities.
Or the aggressive take-over for asset stripping ?

All primitive acts of barbarism - competition between men (where one party loses) is not properly human.

To man with mind - there is no meaning to a competition between people, where one party loses.

To man with mind - the only effective definitiion of competition is of people (together) striving against their own selves - towards improving the collective lot; personal betterment for collective benefit;
not personal benefit for increased remuneration
- for that would be the primitive way.

SB_UK
12-29-10, 12:59 PM
The politician whose party strives to overcome another.
~s (http://www.thevenusproject.com/the-venus-project-introduction/faq)~Many people believe that government leaders bring about change with a deep concern for the well-being of their citizenry. Nothing could be further from the truth, nor did past shifts in society come about as the results of changes in the schools or the home. All established government systems tend to preserve and uphold their own interests ...No government in history has ever planned ahead and directed society into the next phase of social evolution. Established orders want to perpetuate themselves.
Governments are generally comprised of businessmen, lawyers, and other self-appointed individuals with personal and corporate interest rather than upgrading society as a whole.Elimination of legal systems Excellent stuff.

The human legal system enforces crime.

The pattern which the primitive mind imprints upon all human behaviours in which sides form
- is of competition between the sides
- the desire for one to beat the other occurring alongside the complete rejection of any philosophical stance which at one time served to bind the party together

- maintaining a philosophical stance as an inconvenience in war.

The reason why religious terrorism is rife.

Everything to do with a weakness in man - absolutely nothing to do with any religious philosophy.

And so with this in mind - how do we negotiate ourselves around this frailty in man.
AutomationRemoving frail human beings from positions of power over other frail human beings.

Close to condemned multi-storey inner city tower blocks housing thousands of people on either side of the train track -
- set out of sight - a little further back - mansions of similar size inhabited by just a couple of people.What would be done with the old cities?
Most of the old cities would be leveled and mined for their resources. They are too inefficient to maintain.
It'd certainly get us out of the hole we've dug ourselves into.

~*~

The record ends and we begin again.

EshkaronsEngine
12-29-10, 03:05 PM
Love of another
Is this a love for their physical aspect (looks) or their mental aspect (sense of humour)
Essentially I found my other. Everything I'm not she is. Incredibly she occupied my entire pineal gland for a time. I mean my entire third eye was focused on her. Oddly she is physically attached to someone else. I never thought that if I met my soul-mate that they would be attached.

I am trying to find a movie that deals with this situation effectively? Any suggestions would be appreciated:cool:

Tommy Wilhelm
12-29-10, 03:15 PM
That reminds me I should read Tolstoy. But about that song: I took an existential lit. class, maybe six or seven years ago, and the teacher had got hold of that same song -maybe she had it, or someone had given it to her that morning, but she'd cranked up this classroom stereo and was playing it over and over as people drifted into the class. I wouldn't have played it, but the philosophy teachers there were, in general, far less self-conscious than I was. Gives me college nostalgia thinking about it. Knowledge had such a different flavour then.

peripatetic
12-29-10, 05:54 PM
Though why does an understanding of the freedom which we seek have to bring on such feelings of despair ?

great question. i've never understood why either. personally i find the concept of finitude *essential* to imbuing life and person with meaning at all...if choices could be unchosen, if rather than marking out self against the backdrop of temporal existence we truly were limitless...there would be no significance to what we *do* and perceive and how we react and think because we would have an eternity to do and perceive and react and think all things.

heidegger's phrase was that the dasein is throwing itself toward death. people often find this morbid, but, really, what is more envigorating than knowing that this choice, this action, this thought, this reaction IS ME and is marking out me?

bit discombobulated today, so perhaps unclear, but my point is that life as personal existence is able to have a particular type of meaning only because of finitude...only because lived in light of death. without it, we are merely contemplative and not, i would argue, free to choose because to choose means to not choose simultaneously and there would be nothing beyond the reach of a life lived not in the face of being thrown toward its own end.

EshkaronsEngine
12-29-10, 06:03 PM
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2afuTvUzBQ">Thank U Peripatetic</a>

SB_UK
12-30-10, 03:14 PM
~s (http://www.angelfire.com/md2/timewarp/heidegger.html)~According to Heidegger, being-toward-death is attunement to no-longer-being-in-the-world.

~s (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/feuerbach/works/essence/ec17.htm)2~But Christianity, it is contended, demanded only a spiritual freedom.

Spiritual re-birth (spiritual freedom) following a death (of sorts) (no-longer-being-in-the-world) which occurs prior to physical death.

"I die daily” says the apostle, and this dictum Saint Anthony, the founder of monachism, made the theme of his life.

“Ye wish to have both God and the creature together, and that is impossible. Joy in God and joy in the creature cannot subsist together.” – Tauler

Pleasure/Pain (the creature)
Bliss (God)

I'm seriously missing something here.

When did bliss become despair ?

SB_UK
12-30-10, 03:53 PM
I'm seriously missing something here.

When did bliss become despair ?

Anthony determined to withdraw from the habitations of men and retire in absolute solitude.
... ... he found an old fort into which he shut himself, and lived there for twenty years without seeing the face of man

When did bliss become despair ?

Solitude.

I'm beginning to have the strongest feeling that bliss becomes despair dependent on the characteristic EEG of the people in one's immediate vicinity ?

That a mind which seeks to display alpha/theta EEG is lifted out by minds around supporting higher frequency waves.

So - personal experience from losing the meditative state around only certain people and being able to access it when #3 is asleep.

There has to be a reason why distant isolation from others (the monastery life), rather than simply locking oneself away in a bedroom appeals so.

Sharing a monastery with others sharing the same laid back EEG profile would not present as a problem.

Despair becomes bliss dependent on the mindset of one's local community.

Ahhh ... ....

Hell is other people.All becomes clear.

From previously.

~s (http://www.biocybernaut.com/about/discovery/part7.htm#nav1top)~ In the Zen studies, beginners showed increases of Alpha activity, primarily at the back of the head. Intermediate meditators showed the beginners' changes plus increases of slow Alpha and a forward spreading of Alpha from the Alpha origin at the back of the head. Advanced meditators showed the patterns of beginners and intermediate meditators but also showed a third pattern, which appeared in the deepest portion of their meditations: the emergence of rhythmic Theta waves ... ...

~*~

Bear with me for a second - this is a new idea.

This idea wants to be taken in an interesting direction.

It wants to be used to explain why tribes form containing people with similar mindet; almost as though a particular mindset has clonally expanded itself into the minds of other members of the tribe; a mechanism for a local group delusion ?

- nothing to do with a reasoned philosophical stance - everything to do with a mechanism of operation for an infectious meme.

~*~

Need to find out whether any experiments have been performed to test whether human beings fielding different EEG states are able to affect one another ?

EshkaronsEngine
12-30-10, 04:50 PM
~s (http://www.angelfire.com/md2/timewarp/heidegger.html)~

~s (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/feuerbach/works/essence/ec17.htm)2~

Spiritual re-birth (spiritual freedom) following a death (of sorts) (no-longer-being-in-the-world) which occurs prior to physical death.





Pleasure/Pain (the creature)
Bliss (God)

I'm seriously missing something here.

When did bliss become despair ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugbOR40eoCw
For me this is the ultimate bliss. To be devoured by Death by my beloved

ginniebean
12-31-10, 09:05 PM
Now I'm skimming Kierkegaard's Truth Is The Way and like this much better.



One of my favourite expressions is by kierkegaard, and I doubt it is an exact quote, "truth can only be apprehended by the individual".

This has always held a wealth of meaning for me. I find it true in my experience as there is no layers of truth or close to truth but simply a truth state. To put that another way, either the lotus opens or it does not and it will never simultaneously open for everyone at any given time (unless it does)




Though why does an understanding of the freedom which we seek have to bring on such feelings of despair ?


I too have wondered about this. Another question being, why do we feel pain upon the disolution of an illusion?

If the state of freedom exists which many seek then it's already there and we're already free, what is it that keeps us from enjoying and living it? Perhaps we don't know what being free means and our substitute thoughts of it bring about despair. Or, perhaps we realise that we can never be truly free if others are not.

Being able to live
with the simplicity of a monk of whichever religion in a Western World paradigm where people have been trained to lie to and cheat one another.


Lying, cheating are a violation of ourselves and others. It's violence.

Competition is the acting out of the illusion that there is a better or a best, this is a violation of each other, for essentially, we know that one life is as valuable as another, again, it's violence.

Scale is a justification for the continuation of violence. It may be circular reasoning to say violence is violence and yet until this is seen, there is an incomplete or fractured view of it.

EshkaronsEngine
12-31-10, 09:17 PM
I think the despair comes in for we are reincarnated. I think we want to be disembodied and then to return a more advanced individual. I know I do. Sorry for interjecting this totally unscientific viewpoint.

meadd823
01-01-11, 01:27 AM
Pleasure/Pain (the creature)
Bliss (God)

I'm seriously missing something here.

When did bliss become despair?

When duality entered the mind – Duality requires choice A being can be either /good or evil/light or darkness / god always requires a “Satan” to be his counter consciousness = Pain is not always the enemy and pleasure is not always friend - All is within all, all is with All.

Despair means to have no hope you are where you shall always be – bliss has no reason for hope it has arrived– both are a state of being within the being – They are the same. It is only when one inserts duality do they become opposite ends but within unity they are same state of being. – Think unity in the absence of opposites then it is easy to see how bliss = despair / despair = bliss.




Happy New Year !!!

Scooter77
01-01-11, 07:56 AM
I just can't follow SB UK's posts, apologies - I want to, but I just can't condense or interpret them.
Would anyone mind summarising, because I've really been enjoying this thread and I feel like I'm missing a huge chunk by not incorporating these bits.

SB_UK
01-01-11, 01:06 PM
Failed attempt at a post -

Heidegger, The Highlander, Maya and Monasticism (http://www.addforums.com/forums/blog.php?b=2395)

In one line - the entire body of religion, philosophy ... ... has been attempting to point us towards (described from a perspective which aligns with this thread) the understanding that ... ...

Existentialism is the mindset which occurs post-enlightenment (post-resurrection).

'He died for our sins' should perhaps read that we (rather than He) undergo a spiritual re-birth (die) for the crimes against society (for our sins) which the primitive (pre-enlightenment brain) exerts.

The difficulty inherent in this argument is the 'wide-angle' of lens which one must recruit to obtain the big picture.

So -
for no other reason than their previous mention in this thread -

Sartre (p.287 Encyclopaedia of Western Philosophy and Philosophers)
Existentialism and Humanism (1947)
Presumably Sartre's attempt to explain that 'enforced moral consistency' (Stabile) occurs with spiritual re-birth.
More simply - that post-resurrection/post-enlightenment ...
... ... that morality becomes a fixed attribute of man.

Kierkegaard (p.164 Encyclopaedia of Western Philosophy and Philosophers)
'Among his many seminal ideas are a non-substantialist view of the self (or 'spirit') as a relation which relates itself to itself.'

Just as Heidegger (the blog post above - re-introduces 'soul' (dasein) - so does Kierkegaard re-introduce soul/'spirit' and the geometric relationship underlying the Holy Trinity).

-------------------father <-----------------\
hierarchically above// hierarchically above --> Holy Spirit
--------------------son <--------------------/

Father-Son represent the dualistic 'sense' world of phenomenology.
Duality represents the 'seen' World within which animals and the primitive human mind live; this world is Maya - is an illusion.

It doesn't represent the true nature of reality.

For reality we need 3, where the existence of no. 3 (the Holy Spirit) must be inferred; fundamentally unknowable - scientific, religious and philosophical scrutiny has tied itself in knots attempting to make the fundamentally unknowable - knowable.

The mark of the God delusion of the pre-existentialist state of mind; the primitive mind believes it can be 'God'.

~*~

Too complicated - simplify ... ... ...

The human mind applies logic to understand the World around; the human mind is on the verge of learning that the exercise of understanding reality isn't an exercise in understanding reality for the acquisition of knowledge to help us to pleasure ourselves :mad: -
instead is in place as a drive to straighten (generate logical consistency within) our minds (towards pushing us each towards our own personal resurrection/enlightenment event)

... ... and all of this towards the creation of individuals who are (then) intrinsically defined as properly social.

Until the mind undergoes this transition, it is capable of anti-social behaviour -
- there shouldn't be any such thing as war

The 'enforced moral consistency' of enlightenment will cause the individual much pain of they attempt to engage in any competitive behaviour (war of course included) between human beings - where an individual or individuals are required to lose -

- the very fact that there has been war throughout human history (the very vast majority of which borne through greed - some Leader who wishes to extend their territory) is proof sufficient that we have harboured a 'glitch' in our programming -
- a 'glitch' which occurs as a consequence of an immature (inappropriate architecture) of mind.

Too many words - Summarise

Existentialism is the mindset which occurs post-enlightenment (post-resurrection), occurring alongside a shift to morality as fixed attribute.

The existentialist mind is aware of its own mortality; the primitive mind is not, lives within an imaginary reality where through failure to register its own mortality - immortality as its default state.

Back around to the movie Highlander (the blog post above).

Of note - with an end to delusion, the individual is no longer able to pay attention to fictional presentations.
Imagination ceases to be a place to escape reality - instead imagination becomes a tool to sculpt the reality of our future.

An awakening.

A personal, group enlightenment - A personal, group awakening
- where harbouring the existentialist frame of mind is a sign which we may look for, as personal indication of our own progress through the transition between primitive and modern man.

SB_UK
01-01-11, 01:26 PM
I think the despair comes in for we are reincarnated. I think we want to be disembodied and then to return a more advanced individual. I know I do. Sorry for interjecting this totally unscientific viewpoint.

To be able to cast off the physical body.
To be able to stop the never-ending stream of drivel of which the human mind appears capable -

- and to leave in its place resonant synchrony with our greater reality -

- a pure unencumbered existence.

SB_UK
01-01-11, 01:37 PM
When duality entered the mind – Duality requires choice A being can be either /good or evil/light or darkness / god always requires a “Satan” to be his counter consciousness = Pain is not always the enemy and pleasure is not always friend - All is within all, all is with All.

Despair means to have no hope you are where you shall always be – bliss has no reason for hope it has arrived– both are a state of being within the being – They are the same. It is only when one inserts duality do they become opposite ends but within unity they are same state of being. – Think unity in the absence of opposites then it is easy to see how bliss = despair / despair = bliss.

Happy New Year !!!

(http://www.enotalone.com/article/4116.html)I'd like to believe that a rational faith in a better future for the species, and working towards that vision would be enough to dispel the despair; it doesn't seem enough though.

That lifting the delusion will fix us in a state of simultaneous {despair/bliss} - I understand.

Does the despair though represent a rational comprehension of the difficulties which the species will experience undergoing a mass awakening event.

Or is it that the despair will remain in place until there's a mass awakening to morality ?

Or is it that the awakened state cannot dispel despair ?

~s (http://www.allaboutgod.com/love-thy-neighbor.htm)~Love thy neighbor was, in part, Jesus' answer when the Pharisees, the chief religious sect of that day, asked Him about the greatest commandment in the Law.Since the awakening event concerns itself with social structure formation - perhaps it's to be expected that the despair will prevail until the species (in its entirety) awakens ?

SB_UK
01-01-11, 01:40 PM
Or, perhaps we realise that we can never be truly free if others are not.

Since the awakening event concerns itself with social structure formation - perhaps it is to be expected that the despair will prevail until the species (in its entirety) awakens ?:-)

Moving towards the opinion that the evolutionary mechanism will not allow the individual freedom from despair until social structure formation occurs
- until the dominant human mindset expressed on the planet becomes the enlightened mindset -
- where that mindset then 'crystallizes' to generate a species of individuals who're rewarded for completing an evolutionarily scripted journey
by
bliss.

... ... ... where the rational mind (noting that bliss occurs transcendentally to the rational mind) will interprete the intermediate state between individual enlightenment and species-wide enlightenment/awakening - precisely as described by Ginniebean.

Or, perhaps we realise that we can never be truly free if others are not.

EshkaronsEngine
01-01-11, 02:55 PM
The human mind applies logic to understand the World around; the human mind is on the verge of learning that the exercise of understanding reality isn't an exercise in understanding reality for the acquisition of knowledge to help us to pleasure ourselves :mad: -
instead is in place as a drive to straighten (generate logical consistency within) our minds (towards pushing us each towards our own personal resurrection/enlightenment event)

... ... and all of this towards the creation of individuals who are (then) intrinsically defined as properly social.

Until the mind undergoes this transition, it is capable of anti-social behaviour -
- there shouldn't be any such thing as war

The 'enforced moral consistency' of enlightenment will cause the individual much pain of they attempt to engage in any competitive behaviour (war of course included) between human beings - where an individual or individuals are required to lose -

- the very fact that there has been war throughout human history (the very vast majority of which borne through greed - some Leader who wishes to extend their territory) is proof sufficient that we have harboured a 'glitch' in our programming -
- a 'glitch' which occurs as a consequence of an immature (inappropriate architecture) of mind.

Too many words - Summarise

Existentialism is the mindset which occurs post-enlightenment (post-resurrection), occurring alongside a shift to morality as fixed attribute.

The existentialist mind is aware of its own mortality; the primitive mind is not, lives within an imaginary reality where through failure to register its own mortality - immortality as its default state.

Back around to the movie Highlander (the blog post above).

Of note - with an end to delusion, the individual is no longer able to pay attention to fictional presentations.
Imagination ceases to be a place to escape reality - instead imagination becomes a tool to sculpt the reality of our future.

An awakening.

A personal, group enlightenment - A personal, group awakening
- where harbouring the existentialist frame of mind is a sign which we may look for, as personal indication of our own progress through the transition between primitive and modern man.
Very informing post SB UK. As of late I have been in "soul labor" for one who views the world as u put it - as an exercise in understanding reality for the acquisition of knowledge to help us to pleasure ourselves.

I believe there is immense pain in realizing one's existence Existential Angst:confused: I have never known someone to exist more than this person and yet to find them operating on this old OS is the most perplexing thing I have discovered in my entire life.

I am a die hard "Western" thinker and will never give up what I consider the gestalt of the Spirit along with the long night of the soul for the detachment of the Buddhist. Believe me I do beweep my fate:(

SB_UK
01-01-11, 03:14 PM
... ... and will never give up ... ... for the detachment of the Buddhist.
I think we want to be disembodied and then to return a more advanced individual.Exactly.

Is there any chance that the detachment (from Earthly concerns) which is described by the Great religions is expressed (through the eyes of the spiritually re-born) as disembodiment ?

When I try to imagine how spiritually uplifting should feel - the image of liberation of spirit ... ...
- of spirit separating itself away from the body, is brought to mind -
- where the physical vessel from which the spirit is liberated - allowed to feel the freedom which its free flowing spirit is experiencing in the moment.

The kite flier who becomes the kite.

EshkaronsEngine
01-01-11, 03:40 PM
The kite flier who becomes the kite.
As far as my experience goes this has only been attainable through Insanity. My how I loved those periods of manic insanity I have experienced in the past. A place of wonderful delight of no need for sleep. Of the eternal NOW:p

Were it not for others I would allow myself this sacred feast as often as possible but AGAIN WITH THESE PEOPLE WITH THE OLD OS.

EshkaronsEngine
01-01-11, 05:46 PM
Very informing post SB UK. As of late I have been in "soul labor" for one who views the world as u put it - as an exercise in understanding reality for the acquisition of knowledge to help us to pleasure ourselves.

I believe there is immense pain in realizing one's existence Existential Angst:confused: I have never known someone to exist more than this person and yet to find them operating on this old OS is the most perplexing thing I have discovered in my entire life.

I am a die hard "Western" thinker and will never give up what I consider the gestalt of the Spirit along with the long night of the soul for the detachment of the Buddhist. Believe me I do beweep my fate:(

Forgive me for I know not what I say. My luv is not trying to pleasure herself, I was simply confused by her facility to organize our secret knowledge into logic.

I have discovered uncharted territory with this OTHER and was simply trying to create a semblance for the immense perplexity of our SITUATION:mad:.
When true love u find there is such binary tension that one's soul desires to disembody and unite with the beloved. As I alluded to earlier. What bliss it is to die at the hands of your beloved. What ecstatic joy of freedom. This causes torrential emotional pain in the physical body. Indeed I may have to go insane to deal with this:cool:

Scooter77
01-01-11, 06:49 PM
As far as my experience goes this has only been attainable through Insanity. Were it not for others I would allow myself this sacred feast as often as possible but AGAIN WITH THESE PEOPLE WITH THE OLD OS.

Fantastic EE!
Insanity is that which deviates from being socially appropriate. But the behaviours/thoughts that are deemed socially appropriate are more often the real insanity - believing one actually has the ability to control the people around them and the situations surrounding them - this is widespread insanity!

When I try to imagine how spiritually uplifting should feel - the image of liberation of spirit ... ...
- of spirit separating itself away from the body, is brought to mind -
- where the physical vessel from which the spirit is liberated - allowed to feel the freedom which its free flowing spirit is experiencing in the moment.

I've read and re-read your posts SB-UK, and I think I'm starting to catch your point...but forgive me if I'm wrong.
I love the fluid poetry of your expression, but I find it incredibly difficult to follow!
I'm also very literal so I'm struggling to separate your words from your meaning. I may be missing the deeper aspects...

I don't personally imagine a physical division of body and spirit in enlightenment. I emphatically believe that enlightenment is a momentary understanding rather than a movement from the body to the spirit.

I believe there is immense pain in realizing one's existence Existential Angst.

I believe the pain comes from our delusions surrounding our existence, rather than realising reality.
Our society has created illusions that protect us all from our innate fears of death and the unknown. But maintaining these illusions requires unwavering consensus.

The pain comes not from realising our existence, but from attempting to shed the deeply ingrained ideas that have worked to protect us our whole lives, ideas that are socially maintained as 'normal'.

Not only do we face anxiety head-on when we move away from our established safety barriers, but we also risk others condemnation for shaking their protective shields.
Those who enjoy the safety of their delusions do not appreciate anyone who rocks them.

I am a die hard "Western" thinker and will never give up what I consider the gestalt of the Spirit along with the long night of the soul for the detachment of the Buddhist. Believe me I do beweep my fate

Give me non-attachment any day!
Imagine the feeling of peace when one truly understands the insanity of grasping at fleeting, untetherable objects/moments.

I'd like to believe that a rational faith in a better future for the species, and working towards that vision would be enough to dispel the despair; it doesn't seem enough though.
Does the despair though represent a rational comprehension of the difficulties which the species will experience undergoing a mass awakening event.
Or is it that the despair will remain in place until there's a mass awakening to morality ?
Or is it that the awakened state cannot dispel despair ?

Isn't despair simply a symptom of the insanity of humanity?
Something that goes hand-in-hand with all the illusions that maintain and justify hierarchies?

Surely even in the most primitive of human brains, there is a basic residual understanding of just how far we have deviated in order to support our greed.

If all human mis-deeds ultimately derive from (and exist to smother) our innate fears, then that inherent seed of fear is what gives birth to despair, which is then nourished by our efforts to ignore/dispel it.

The human mind applies logic to understand the World around; the human mind is on the verge of learning that the exercise of understanding reality isn't an exercise in understanding reality for the acquisition of knowledge to help us to pleasure ourselves :mad: -
instead is in place as a drive to straighten (generate logical consistency within) our minds (towards pushing us each towards our own personal resurrection/enlightenment event)

Rather than being a drive, maybe true understanding is the origin that we gradually drift back to despite our efforts to attain knowledge or pleasure.

Maybe it's our drive for knowledge and/or pleasure that keeps us separated from truth. The harder we try to understand truth, the farther away we push it.

Maybe truth is simply existence (acceptance), rather than something that needs to be understood.

meadd823
01-02-11, 08:50 AM
(http://www.enotalone.com/article/4116.html)I'd like to believe that a rational faith in a better future for the species, and working towards that vision would be enough to dispel the despair; it doesn't seem enough though.

That lifting the delusion will fix us in a state of simultaneous {despair/bliss} - I understand.

Does the despair though represent a rational comprehension of the difficulties which the species will experience undergoing a mass awakening event.

Or is it that the despair will remain in place until there's a mass awakening to morality ?

Or is it that the awakened state cannot dispel despair ?

~s (http://www.allaboutgod.com/love-thy-neighbor.htm)~Since the awakening event concerns itself with social structure formation - perhaps it's to be expected that the despair will prevail until the species (in its entirety) awakens ?


SB I am unsure that the entire species will awaken to be honest -Some do not want to move beyond their own despair because they are comfortable there - other are blissfully unaware of any despair so they feel they have arrived thus finding no need to peruse a higher state of awareness

Enlightenment for me personally has been acceptance that both states of being are an illusion - my meaning is in the quest the journey of ever increasing levels of awareness thus more complete understanding {so I can be ever more aware of my lack thereof} .

I find comfort in the idea of never arriving in a blissful or a despairing state permanently - both are temporary illusions within the journey.


I have found peace by embracing that nagging insatiable desire for more because I had to accept it in order to have a snow balls chance in hell {pun intended} of consciously of directing it - Instead of wanting more temporary material things I want more immaterial awareness thus increasing my levels of interaction with the cosmos.

I don't expect all of humanity to be interested - for many are blissfully satisfied with material pursuit of trinkets and more interested in their creature comforts than the discomfort of seeking to commune with the unknowable and indescribable.

Being an individual within the body of the cosmos means any action taken with in the cosmos is occurring to me therefore morals are not necessary - I do not need a sense of right and wrong they are merely perceptions from a limited perspective and lack of understanding - I do understand some behaviors are destructive but destruction is the necessary beginning of production =

Perhaps an introduction of my understanding of "deity" would be in order I think we may be seeing the same things differently but will never know without contrast.

THE ALL (http://www.gnostic.org/kybalionhtm/kybalion4.htm)

THE ALL must be ALL that REALLY IS. There can be nothing existing outside of THE ALL, else THE ALL would not be THE ALL.

Basically even Existentialism is an illusion within an illusion which stems from reality but is not reality in itself - therefore any state experienced is nothing more than an illusion within an illusion .

SB_UK
01-02-11, 10:13 AM
quote=Scooter77;993180
But the behaviours/thoughts that are deemed socially appropriate are more often the real insanity - believing one actually has the ability to control the people around them and the situations surrounding them - this is widespread insanity!

Exactly.

I don't personally imagine a physical division of body and spirit in enlightenment. I emphatically believe that enlightenment is a momentary understanding rather than a movement from the body to the spirit.

You're right - I should have used the word resolution rather than separation/division; the kite must be tethered.

Is Buddhism attempting to teach us that a certain way of life leads us to an event which leads to the (thereafter) permanent state of enlightenment ?
... ... or ... ...
perhaps (and in line with your idea)
- that enlightenment places the mind into a state in which it becomes predisposed to gain momentary glimpses of a higher nature (of a Transcendental reality).

I believe there is immense pain in realizing one's existence Existential Angst.
I believe the pain comes from our delusions surrounding our existence, rather than realising reality.
Our society has created illusions that protect us all from our innate fears of death and the unknown. But maintaining these illusions requires unwavering consensus.

Pain maintained by the delusion; despair as the immediate reaction to realising reality.

Illustrated using the movie 'The Matrix'.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
In the movie 'The Matrix' - the movie began with Morpheus suggesting to Neo that
'You know that something is very wrong with the World (delusion) - and this belief tears you apart - your desire to know the truth) ... ...'
The delusion dissolves on understanding; it's an automatic process.

However, upon awakening - Neo was to find that 'real' world very much less attractive than the world of delusion -

- the reason for Sipher wishing to return into The Matrix, though failing, because as Morpheus stated - the trip into a reality more real is unidirectional.

Neo's shocking awakening away from The Matrix, connected to electrodes, representing the movie director's attempt to represent the gestalt individual awakening (evolution in structure of mind) which gives rise to the existentialist mind.

The world outside of the Matrix was not sky blue, angelic green meadows lackadaisical ... ...
outside of the Matrix - the World inspired only despair
- why so ?

The despair (from the movie) arising through the awakened, resurrected, enlightened or even the dead (Osiris) having to exist in a world in which the majority are asleep, in which human beings are subservient to machines and in which the subservience to machines has lead to environmental destruction
- the sky turning black.

All of these aspects of the 'real' World outside of 'The Matrix' are though accurate depictions of our 'real' World currently.

The 'real' World from 'The Matrix' is simply a very slight exaggeration of the 'real' World (out there).
---1---
Since war persists - it may be inferred that the individuals (the very cast majority of the global population) who accept the continuation of physical conflict
as
asleep.
---2---
Subservience to machines - having set up a society along lines upon which life is impossible without machines - the car, for instance - though where this addiction to electronic and electrical items is not sustainable (when they break they're rarely fixed) -
---3---
leading to factories or churches of worship to the machine - where the interests of human beings are placed below the clonal expansion of machines,
~eg~ More concerns over suicides at Foxconn (http://www.tuaw.com/2010/05/28/foxconn-suicides-update/)
whilst (in the process) fatally compromising the environment.
~eg~ Beijing's Olympic War on Smog

(http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1730918,00.html) The sky turning black.

'The Matrix' offers an accurate depiction of the real World; that people have not seen the connection - testament to delusion.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

The pain comes not from realising our existence, but from attempting to shed the deeply ingrained ideas that have worked to protect us our whole lives, ideas that are socially maintained as 'normal'.

I agree - disorientating pain - more on this below under 'Social Impulse' (Stabile).

Not only do we face anxiety head-on when we move away from our established safety barriers, but we also risk others condemnation for shaking their protective shields.
Those who enjoy the safety of their delusions do not appreciate anyone who rocks them.

That's exactly it; we're observing a shift in complexity of architecture of the mind which results in the individual's own sense of reality changing.
The process of shifting realities is destabilizing (by~definition).
Stabile uses the term 'social impulse' to describe the force of integrity which keeps the primitive mindset in place - and modern mindset in place.
By shifting from primitive to modern mindset, we're required to dissolve the primitive social impulse and put in its place a modern social impulse.
The transition isn't immediate and the individual, during this transition feels exposed.

Give me non-attachment any day!

Same here.

Imagine the feeling of peace when one truly understands the insanity of grasping at fleeting, untetherable objects/moments.

It feels as though we're trying to learn to give ourselves permission to stand down from behaviours which we (dawning awareness) know to be in our disinterest; to give ourselves permission to refrain from stabbing ourselves and our neighbours, staring on aghast as others seem to want to continue.

Isn't despair simply a symptom of the insanity of humanity?

'The Matrix' appears to make exactly this point; awareness of the insanity of humanity - of the consequences of insane behaviour by humans; of the incapacity to awaken the insane to the nature of their insanity.

Something that goes hand-in-hand with all the illusions that maintain and justify hierarchies?

That's exactly it - the primitive mind seeks its place within a physical hierarchy, and seeks its self definition from its progress up the physical hierarchy -
- the illusion/delusion melts with evolution in complexity of mental architecture of the individual's mind.

We're left (post-resurrection) under no doubt that all humans are equal - a mindset which necessitates that systems which maintain inequality of man
- be dissolved.
Property, ownership, money, materialism, capitalism ... ... all scheduled for deletion.

Surely even in the most primitive of human brains, there is a basic residual understanding of just how far we have deviated in order to support our greed.

There's a rational understanding which cannot translate into behaviour.
The alcoholic can be made to understand that their addictive behaviour will hasten their own death - but the knowledge is not enough to combat the addiction.
The illusion/delusion may only be penetrated by the individual making the decision to penetrate the illusion/delusion for themself.
With penetration of the illusion/delusion comes a psychological change which alters the neurochemical nature of the individual - shifting the individual away from the propensity for addiction to chemical structures.

With a loss of addictive propensity to chemistry - and a shift from chemical to informational (cf. Jesus - love) reward mechanism, comes a loss in delusion; the delusion is no longer maintained by neurochemical incarceration.

We escape prison; the rational mind gains control over the individual's behaviour; Sartre's 'Age of Reason'.

The simplest method of arriving at the awakened state is to apply oneself to an understanding of the nature of non man-made reality, to the nature of God, to the nature of evolution, to the nature of morality, to the nature of existence - each of these lines of enquiry eventually converge.

If all human mis-deeds ultimately derive from (and exist to smother) our innate fears, then that inherent seed of fear is what gives birth to despair, which is then nourished by our efforts to ignore/dispel it.

I think that human mis-deeds derive from the individual's state of mind; until the individual becomes properly social (post-resurrection) - the individual's behaviours are determined by competitive self-interest, which necessitate that others suffer in order for one's personal agenda to be met.
So ... ... bearing a (primitive) state of mind in which the fear of losing drives the individual to (no holds barred) win; the irrational nature of this stance cannot be dispelled until the mind which supports the stance evolves to a higher state (a higher state of understanding).

Rather than being a drive, maybe true understanding is the origin that we gradually drift back to despite our efforts to attain knowledge or pleasure.

A model for evolution which involves recursion.

Maybe it's our drive for knowledge and/or pleasure that keeps us separated from truth. The harder we try to understand truth, the farther away we push it.

Luckily - the more honestly we apply ourselves towards comprehending truth, the greater the likelihood of the transition in structure which the drive for knowledge is (actually) in place to deliver.

Maybe truth is simply existence (acceptance), rather than something that needs to be understood.

Simple existence (the spiritual state) - a state in which the mind characterizes reality as 'is' and not as either good or bad.
So - understanding restructuring knowledge in such a way - that with complete understanding - knowledge dissipates.
Complete understanding resulting in a mindset which doesn't need to understand.
Dissipation of knowledge/understanding resulting in the descent into a state of pure existence - where the mind/body cease to be able to raise objections to life - because their power over us is lifted.

SB_UK
01-02-11, 11:11 AM
SB I am unsure that the entire species will awaken to be honest -Some do not want to move beyond their own despair because they are comfortable there - other are blissfully unaware of any despair so they feel they have arrived thus finding no need to peruse a higher state of awareness

Enlightenment for me personally has been acceptance that both states of being are an illusion - my meaning is in the quest the journey of ever increasing levels of awareness thus more complete understanding {so I can be ever more aware of my lack thereof} .

I find comfort in the idea of never arriving in a blissful or a despairing state permanently - both are temporary illusions within the journey.


I have found peace by embracing that nagging insatiable desire for more because I had to accept it in order to have a snow balls chance in hell {pun intended} of consciously of directing it - Instead of wanting more temporary material things I want more immaterial awareness thus increasing my levels of interaction with the cosmos.

I don't expect all of humanity to be interested - for many are blissfully satisfied with material pursuit of trinkets and more interested in their creature comforts than the discomfort of seeking to commune with the unknowable and indescribable.

Being an individual within the body of the cosmos means any action taken with in the cosmos is occurring to me therefore morals are not necessary - I do not need a sense of right and wrong they are merely perceptions from a limited perspective and lack of understanding - I do understand some behaviors are destructive but destruction is the necessary beginning of production =

Perhaps an introduction of my understanding of "deity" would be in order I think we may be seeing the same things differently but will never know without contrast.

THE ALL (http://www.gnostic.org/kybalionhtm/kybalion4.htm)

THE ALL must be ALL that REALLY IS. There can be nothing existing outside of THE ALL, else THE ALL would not be THE ALL.

Basically even Existentialism is an illusion within an illusion which stems from reality but is not reality in itself - therefore any state experienced is nothing more than an illusion within an illusion .

I understand.


The human life cycle

caterpillar ----------------> pupa ----> butterfly
[addicted to consumerism]...[transition]--[wisdom]
[unsustainable]

The human life cycle is meant to involve the addicted (MUST EAT!) caterpillar undergoing a transition with education and pair bonding to the spiritual freedom (wisdom) of the butterfly.

The caterpillar cannot help but live to eat; the caterpillar (like the locust) is an unsustainable creature which doesn't believe in planning for the future; it simply eats.

In contrast to the caterpillar - human beings don't, simply by grace of existence undergo metamorphosis; the developing individual's mind - like the developing caterpillar's mouth - is required to eat its fill, to enter the pupal stage.

If the caterpillar does not undergo metamorphosis, then aging caterpillars will be found - will be found (as adults) in positions of power (to dictate policies) alongside the butterflies.

The aging addicted caterpillars far outnumber the number of butterflies in power; the butterflies are solitary in nature and do not form into tribes (political parties).

The aging addicted caterpillars represent the Sophist to the butterfly of Socrates; the aging addicted caterpillar is not open to reason
- seeks only food ...

... ... is trapped by the addiction, illusion, delusion; reacts aggressively to any allusions which point to their incapacity to think clearly; hire spin doctors to obscure their lack of philosophy.

The aging addicted caterpillar, by virtue of being in the grips of addiction, introduce short-term unsustainable policies which allow people to eat many times more than their fill.

Of course at the expense of others (from less wealthy countries), but they choose not to mention this, just as the electorate choose not to hear.

The aging addicted caterpillar bribes the aging addicted caterpillars of the electorate with promises of more plentiful food.

And all of this as planetary stocks of food deplete - they care not though, as long as their uncontrollable greed is satisfied.

~s (http://www.addforums.com/forums/global%20food%20shortages%20biofuel)~ Biofuel caused food crisis~s (http://www.metrolyrics.com/territories-lyrics-rush.html)~ Don't feed the people but we feed the machines.People become chronically sick from eating too much and of the wrong foods, though a testament to the power of the addiction/delusion/illusion
- the caterpillar just cannot find the willpower to refrain.

Must eat !

~*~

Since the caterpillar is unsustainable, a mass awakening to wisdom in the adult population is going to prove necessary for species survival.

Under the understanding that wisdom (the butterfly) takes time to attain, and that up until the emergence of the butterfly, that the materialist urge will remain -
- the properly adult (butterfly) can take steps to set up a sustainable materialism within which the developing minds of the caterpillar can learn to become better.

The butterfly cares nothing for 'things'.

SB_UK
01-02-11, 11:41 AM
Enlightenment for me personally has been acceptance that both states of being are an illusion

Basically even Existentialism is an illusion within an illusion which stems from reality but is not reality in itself - therefore any state experienced is nothing more than an illusion within an illusion .

Exactly - though with one small additional aspect, evolution needs to be able to harness motivation (a reward mechanism) in order to ensure that we strive towards an ever deeper illusion (increasing informational entropy).

http://chrisfieldblog.com/wp-content/uploads/carrot-and-stick.gif

It's hard to believe that the evolutionary process 'd rely on stick.

~*~

An exponential increase in intensity of spiritual calm with evolutionary event 'd be a carrot, I guess.

SB_UK
01-02-11, 03:00 PM
The despair of awakening

From the post above, in the Matrix, the despair of the awakened state was caused by

1. An awareness that all those within the Matrix who had not yet been released, could not be trusted.
(The section of the film featuring the lady in red).
It would surely cause the average enlightened soul much grief to know that the unenlightened population as defined as having your (everybody else's (to be fair)) suffering at heart - the inevitable consequence of a primitive self model which has competition as its prime directive.
The primitive mind is not able to see that all forms of competition between human beings are entirely contrived; no human being ever beats another - there is no mechanism for a human being to beat another and to benefit from victory; the competition is of human beings together against collective suffering (mental and physical pain).

2. The war against the machines - which may be deciphered to mean the fight to overcome the disempowerment which mechanical, electrical, electronic devices
(over which the average citizen has no control)
- deliver.
... ... ... the role of the average citizen relegated to dumb consumer.

The new patriotism - yours solely to buy (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7747644.stm).

Gandhi's views on technology are brought to mind.
~s (http://www.universalistfriends.org/sibley2005.html)~During the 20th century, Friends were deeply influenced by Gandhi's concept of nonviolent resistance as a tool for social and political change. They have been less sympathetic to his ideas on technology, although as Sibley makes clear, those ideas were rooted in Gandhi's religious beliefs and in a testimony of simplicity not unlike that of traditional Quakers. Today, nearly thirty years after Sibley wrote this piece and more than seventy years after Gandhi put his arguments forward, they seem more relevant than ever. Since Gandhi's ideas were never implemented in India or elsewhere, one cannot say that history has upheld them, but the contrasting views of Nehru and other advocates of modern industrialism have been thrown into deep question by the devastating effects of industrial technology on agricultural and village economies worldwide.3. The blackening of the skies
The battle for empowerment from a capitalist model of mechanical, electrical and electronic tools is lost; the potentially empowering realm of technology - infected by the MBA's mantra of 'make more money'.
The result - human disempowerment - complete reliance on machines - which of course needed to be fed.
Pollution.

People worry about an energy crisis - how much though of our energy use improves our quality of life ?

Does anybody enjoy ironing ?
Who wants to be stuck in a traffic jam goin' to some dead end job to pay for the car whch is stuck in a traffic jam ?

Wouldn't a world without irons and cars be a better place ?

No, wearing crumpled clothing out isn't a sin and you'd never again have to suffer the indignity of being 'sized' up by some car mechanic for how much you're worth.

Our energetic requirements escalated rapidly - dirty hydrocarbon fuels were necessary to feed our nightmare of capitalism; the nightmare of capitalism as the best the unsustainable mind of the pre-awakened state could achieve.

The promise of technology sold to the highest bidder - where the highest bidder cared only about capturing consumers in a legally binding stranglehold relationship from which the lawyer ensured that the consumer could not cancel their direct debit without indemnity charge.

Indemnity charge - isn't that the same phrase which is used for the charge levied against defeated invading nations for their aggression ?
Imagine the irony of a system in which the aggressor demands money from his victim to support his aggression.

The error carried.

.. ... where the fundamental error lies in the incomplete structure of the dominant parochial mindset which has both defined and accepted global policy over the last 2,000 years.

Completion in structure of the mind renders the individual violently opposed to any form of ownership
as
burden.

The National border is not real; the World is a single system.

SB_UK
01-03-11, 07:51 AM
The simplest method of arriving at the awakened state is to apply oneself to an understanding of the nature of non man-made reality, to the nature of God, to the nature of evolution, to the nature of morality, to the nature of existence - each of these lines of enquiry eventually converg[ing]

here (http://www.kybalion.org/kybalion.asp?chapter=IV)

A rational understanding of a fundamental, fundamentally unknowable substance underlying existence.

A Planck length standing wave matrix
--- (The Holy Spirit)
which imparts the illusion of space:time
--- (space and time are properties of this underlying matrix or fundamental substance)
to projected structures which are formed from it
--- (this underlying matrix
--- --- (which, in the case of man - we choose to call the soul)
... ... representing the true nature of existence
- represents the 'breath' which gives existence to structures within our sense or structured (phenomenological)
reality)
--- (our dualistic phenomenological reality
--- --- (father-son)
which human beings appear to want to kid ourselves into believing, is all there is).

https://www.celextel.com/images/images_store/om_anim.gif

)__o
>

)
> duality (father-son) (male-female archetype)

&

o The Holy Spirit.

o is orthogonal to both { ) and > }.
) and > are orthogonal to one another.
where
orthogonality in circular motion represents spin-states which're out of frame.

In mechanics -

a force cannot extend itself beyond 90 degrees -
meaning that

---> this force cannot be made to move an object situated at x.


-x-> |
-x-> |
-x-> |

The circular rotation equivalent to this linear mechanical principle would be that
anticlockwise rotation on eg plane xz cannot influence ___clockwise rotation on (therefore) plane xz.
[Duality]
And neither anticlockwise nor ___clockwise rotation on plane xz can influence either ___clockwise or anticlockwise rotation on plane xy.

Rotation on plane xy (The Holy Spirit) -> leading to -> phenomenological dualistic reality of complementary synergy betweeen anti-clockwise and clockwise rotations on plane xz.

Male and Female archetypes don't cancel - they balance ~eg~ the agonistic/antagonistic muscle groups on the human body.

So 'circular motion' (not linear static) orthogonality of

) vs. >
o vs. { ) and > }

underlying reality.

Representing the three dimensions of reality - where though, phenomenological reality appears to actually only represent 2 dimensions - the co-existence of rotational opposition in only 2 dimensions giving rise to phenomenological reality.

Motion as an attribute in a fundamental substance necessitating that motion be observed in 'child' products of evolution (formed from that fundamental substance).

The illusion of 'stillness' (that that tree outside is not moving) is created by our own simultaneous motion with the structures (all of them evolutionary) which are to be found in reality.

We've no choice really.

~*~

Becoming a little too complicated - Summarise

Human beings have been struggling to come to terms with a rational understanding of the reality within which we inhabit as balanced upon a fundamentally unknowable substrate.

This fundamentally unknowable substrate forms the foundation of religion, physics and philosophy.

The gifted philosopher attempting the analytical philosophical tradition has tied him/her-self in knots continually (and correctly) re-discovering through intuition (and not through analytical process)
- of continually re-intuiting that the nature of existence as beyond the realm of phenomenological reality.

The nature of existence is provided by an unknowable fundamental substrate (outside of our frame of senses) which have space:time as fixed attributes.

We (dualistic evolutionary mortal 'child' products of a fundamental permanent (immortal) reality) inherit what we call space and time from our parental construct
or 'God'
- within whom/which an 'absolute' space and time are fixed attributes which're inextricably tied to one another; the self-definition of absolute (unstructured) reality includes space and time.

The space and time, though which are encoded by fundamental reality differing from the space/time which the mind observes and struggles to explain within phenomenological reality.

The nature of human existence
An eternal standing wave matrix [space] which fields motion [time].

Encyclopaedia of Western philosophers and philosophy : Heidegger (p.129)
"Plato and Aristotle, who founded metaphysics - in which 'being' is accepted uncritically as 'permanence of presence' ... ..."

==

The nature of existence ('being') is conferred by an eternal unknowable (metaphysics) fundamental substance ('permanence of presence').

SB_UK
01-03-11, 08:46 AM
The nature of human existence
An eternal standing wave matrix [space] which fields motion [time].

Encyclopaedia of Western philosophers and philosophy : Heidegger (p.129)
"Plato and Aristotle, who founded metaphysics - in which 'being' is accepted uncritically as 'permanence of presence' ... ..."

==

The nature of existence ('being') is conferred by an eternal ('permanence of presence') unknowable (metaphysics) fundamental substance.

==

~s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moksha)~Moksha is seen as a final release from one's worldly conception of self and a loosening of the shackle of experiential duality, accompanied by the realization of one's own fundamental nature ... ... The fundamentally unknowable metaphysical presence from which structures (Western religion,science) originate may also be described as pure consciousness (Eastern religion).

referencing
ToEf:Lloyd Gillespie (http://www.toequest.com/forum/logic-reasoning/4690-east-meets-west-logic.html)

1.The theoretical ergodic axiom of The West is absolute creator...
2.The theoretical ergodic axiom of The East is absolute mind...
3.The theoretical ergodic axiom of Science is absolute substance...Synonyms, is all.

~*~

Mokska
==
Enlightenment
==
Resurrection
==
Spiritual re-birth
==
The transition to existentialism
- where the individual gets to experience evolution for himself as her mind acquires the metalevel perspective over physical reality.

The third person properly human mind emerges (with development of mind) over the first person primitive mind (which we're born into).

The mind acquires eyes to see through the incarcerating dualistic delusion of worldly imprisonment.

SB_UK
01-03-11, 10:48 AM
OK - so I kinda' 'get' what you're going on about.

You're trying to suggest that because the existentialist mindset (third person) occurs hierarchically above the primitive first person perspective - that we're able to infer through direct experience - the existence of a recursive hierarchical mechanism to evolution.

Now relate this idea to ADHD.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=331470&postcount=26
"Hartmann wrote 'The Edison Gene', 2003. I have it in my hands.
His intro starts with an earthquake in India and his sharing a train ride with some Indian business men and a physician. He asks if they are familiar with types of people who crave stimulation, lack focus, hop from career to career or relationship to relationship, but the whole time they remain creative and inventive? They, the Indian men all nodded and agreed that they know this type well. These are old Karmic souls, nearing enlightenment. The purpose of reincarnation is to eventually free oneself from worldly entanglements and desires.
The cultures are different, worlds are different. In one place holy, in the other mad."Nearing enlightenment.

Now - what precisely does 'nearing enlightenment' mean ?

Each round of evolution
(each sequential subsequent emergent evolutionary event)
ends with an awards ceremony where the award which is on offer, at each Great Yearly event is an ever increasingly intense 'reprise' to the divine state (of pure divinity, consciousness, freedom) upon which we are superstructures.
(Stabile 'Back to the garden' == 'enlightenment').

At 'first' emergence (~30,000 years ago in the case of modern man/mind) we begin a journey from

(-)
which passes through
(^)
passes through
(-^-)
to complete physiological optimization at
oo
ooo
at which point the evolutionary structure is complete and a novel emergent event is required.
->-
(-)
which passes through
(^)
~etc~

Note that the three-pronged Boy's surface (The Holy Trinity), om, zen (incomplete circle) structure and standing wave are all representations of the exact same geometry.

~*~

Still not getting it - are you attemping to describe the emergence of ADHD as the sign of an ongoing speciation event ?
Yes
(referencing Stabile).

~*~

OK - so I kinda' understand what you're trying to suggest - though can you make this idea easier for me to accept ?

Sure.

With evolution we observe the generation of novel emergent structures/properties.
Novel emergent structures/properties have different motivations to precursor emergent structures/properties ... ... ...

Ooo ooo - can I try and continue this story - is that why ADDers are unable to find motivation in the types of behaviours which nonADDers appear to be quite happy to perform ?

Yay - you gottit big guy.

There is though an additional element to the story.

And that'd presumably represent the replacement motivation which ADDers seek ?

On a roll big guy.

~*~

The transition from a chemical to an informational reward system (cf. the love which Jesus describes).

Yes - but what's the mechanism ?
How can 'love' affect bodily biochemistry ?

Resonant synchrony between people and nature at 8 Hz; completion of evolution imparts a reduced (relative to precursor) frequency of oscillation of the novel emergent structure; from beta (belief in the delusion) to alpha (shattering of the delusion) EEG ... ... ...

Descartes knew ... ... ...
The Oxford companion to the mind, page ...
(aaaghhh! can't find the page)

~paraphrased~
"Descartes suggested that the mind:body problem (of whether the mind was confined within or extended beyond body) could be solved by a model for the pineal gland as receiver/transmitter (that is that the mind extends beyond constraint of body)."
~s (http://biologyofkundalini.com/article.php?story=TheCrystalPalace)~ The delicious dissociative, endogenous, sustainable PEA, DMT and opiates (amrita) which we drown ourselves within, when the pineal gland becomes active.

Activation of the pineal gland with resonant synchrony between people (and the planet - the principle node of the Schumann resonance) at the alpha/theta EEG interface of 8 Hz.

:-)

Permanently stoned (though in a nice way); it's possible for the individual to feel the pineal activating - it feels like a heart beat in the centre of the head.

SB_UK
01-03-11, 02:31 PM
Between Two States of Mind

~ diZzYiNg transitions ~

PRIMITIVE MIND
Catastrophe
Catastrophe and
Catastrophe and aCure
Catastrophe anMODERN MIND

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSTQ1tkmjv0

An outstanding re-mix of a remarkable original; that a natural mechanism exists to confer self-awareness on a bag-load of jiggly chemicals
... ... ... just imagine what might lie in store.

SB_UK
01-03-11, 04:33 PM
Yes - but what's the mechanism ?
How can 'love' affect bodily biochemistry ?

Resonant synchrony between people and nature at 8 Hz ... ...

... with a model for the pineal gland as receiver/transmitter ... ...

~s~ en-Buddhist practitioners, aiming to prove the most original true-self, discover and uncover the inner energy or light on the way towards their goal.
Perception of the inner light can be comprehended as resonance.Resonant synchrony or Resonance

Pineal gland (The Third eye where the Third eye is said to see (Inner) light)

http://www.heron-productions.com/tutorials/thirdeye/finish.jpg

Inner light (The unknowable Planck length standing wave matrix or soul within - upon which we structure)
== prana, kundalini, qi ... ... ...

Simplifying
Completion in optimization (mind:body duality formation) in structure of the Planck length standing wave matrix (soul) upon which we are superstructured, results in resonance capacity between our[completed]selves and (in effect) God -
- we feel the optimization in our underlying structure (of this unknowable substrate) through resonance not vision.

Perception of the inner light can be comprehended as resonance.The hallmark of emergent evolution is a frequency of oscillation; with each subsequent evolutionary event the frequency of oscillation decreases; I'm pretty sure that the decrease in frequency of oscillation from beta/alpha to alpha/theta EEG (which accompanies ADHD) may be taken as evidence of the emergence of ADHD as speciation event.
~s (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-81143123.html)~Results suggest that children diagnosed with AD/HD without hyperactivity may exhibit EEG patterns that are similar to those exhibited by AD/HD with hyperactivity, that is excessive slow wave activity in the theta band and decreased activity in beta bands compared to matched controls (Janzen, Graap, Stephanson, Marshall, & Fitzsimmons, 1995; Mann, Lubar, Zimmerman, Miller, & Muenchen, 1992).The only obstacle which we face in greeting the emergence of ADDers as novel species is the crazy pre-conception that subsequent speciation events will lead to people with X-men like powers
well ... 'crazy' ... with the exception of the telepathic properties of Charles Xavier ... ... .. :-) ... ... ...

Global synchronization.

Come in number 92 - your time is up.

SB_UK
01-03-11, 05:18 PM
... ... *however* for some reason my intuition is screaming

No you dolt - delta !Delta EEG - zero to 4 Hz.

~s (http://isochronic-tones.blogspot.com/2009/01/delta-waves.html)~Our conscious mind has no control or influence during the delta stage. The unconscious dominates our minds while the conscious sleeps. However Buddhist monks, Zen masters or other meditation experts are said to achieve semi consciousness while in the delta stage. Maybe that's where they experience enlightenment.A rational consciousness reigning supreme, if possible in delta EEG.

Eversion (the oscillation of an optimized/complete emergent structure) appears to want to oscillate around zero, a phase of darkness witnessed within the pulsar's regular rhythm.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Cycle_of_pulsed_gamma_rays_from_the_Vela_pulsar.gi f/220px-Cycle_of_pulsed_gamma_rays_from_the_Vela_pulsar.gi f

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation5) amplitude suppressed ("silent and almost flat") They found pattern #5 unique and characterized by:
<dl><dd>1) extremely low power (significant suppression of EEG amplitude)</dd><dd>2) corresponding temporal patterns with no particular EEG rhythm</dd><dd>3) no dominating peak in the spectral distribution</dd></dl>"silent and almost flat" == a phase of darkness

SB_UK
01-03-11, 05:41 PM
That's it - the enlightened state is experienced when consciousness is retained at 0 Hz (delta EEG)
- for at 0 Hz, the mind is placed within frame of absolute reality.

Noting that at 0 Hz the thinking mind is wholly transcended; pure existence - the experience of pure existence -
- experience of enlightenment as the experience of pure existence.

This idea is definitely correct.

How wonderful is it to strip the arrogant human mind of its stolen credentials.

Yay !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation
In particular they found the amplitude suppressed pattern correlated with "the feeling of blessings."

To know God.

EshkaronsEngine
01-03-11, 05:49 PM
Isn't despair simply a symptom of the insanity of humanity?
Something that goes hand-in-hand with all the illusions that maintain and justify hierarchies?

Surely even in the most primitive of human brains, there is a basic residual understanding of just how far we have deviated in order to support our greed.


Yesterday at my most despondent I have been for quite some time I faced this TRUTH. We r all insane.

meadd823
01-04-11, 03:48 AM
Who wants to be stuck in a traffic jam goin' to some dead end job to pay for the car which is stuck in a traffic jam ?

I have to sleep before I can dare to formulate a response but I wanted to highlight the above as one of my favorite examples of logic - very good analogy and I totally agree - it is a mouse trap ,rat race, an addiction although I am not quiet as extreme against the electronics or technology seeing as we are using just such a device to communicate ourselves.

I think what is missing is not an either or approach but a balance between advancement and being on all levels.

As per usual you offer wonderfully insightful responses that I shall have to sleep upon before fully understanding

SB_UK
01-04-11, 03:41 PM
... although I am not quiet as extreme against the electronics or technology seeing as we are using just such a device to communicate ourselves.

We often hear heated conversations about how we'd be better off living in a world without religion, communism, machines ... ... ...
the problem though which is driving such criticism does not relate to religion, communism or machines per se - instead relating to what the human (immature) mind makes religion, politics, technology into ... ... ...

It's interesting that an aspect of the delusion (described in Eastern religion) which the immature mind is imprisoned within -
is a God delusion, which the immature mind holds.

A terribly high (and thoroughly misplaced) impression of itself.

With loss of the delusion, we experience the mind lose its God delusion; with loss of the delusion comes humility (meekness).

The mind then grows the eyes to see that it is best characterized as a collection of protocols - as a technician
- and not a divine entity.

We're given the eyes to see that what we have liked to consider 'de novo creation' has been closer to 'copy and paste'.

We see that all that we've (actually) achieved is borrow the properties of aspects of nature (chemistry, biochemistry) and chain them together to generate negligibly different properties -

- where, though,
(and this is the sting in the scorpion's tail)
- we're gradually coming to the realization that the very vast majority of technological protocols which we've introduced into reality -
were introduced too hastily ... ... ....

So ... ... is there anything intrinsically wrong with religion, political philosophy or technology ?
No - the problems which we may have observed with all of these and other systems are rooted firmly in the attribute of logical inconsistency in the primitive mind.

Of the primitive mind's draw towards introducing systems which benefit themself, without regard to the rest.

I'd argue that the primitive mind is not properly human; that it's not at original speciation event, instead only at subsequent speciation event when the organism can be considered to have acquired the emergent property -

- that up until now, and perhaps for a little while longer -
that the very vast majority of people who we describe comprising mankind, have not actually been human.

This kinda' idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gurdjieff
Gurdjieff stated that maleficent events such as wars and so on could not possibly take place if people were awake.The primitive mind is not properly human.

That the emergent structure/property doesn't emerge fully until the structure is complete; a process which takes time (physiological optimization of the structure) post-original speciation event.

In our case, the time taken for physiological optimization of the structure of the mind appears to have been ~30,000 years, with most of the 'action' appearing to have taken place within the last quarter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_writing) of this period.

meadd823
01-04-11, 04:28 PM
Some tid bits from the link to

In Praise of Gandhi (http://www.universalistfriends.org/sibley2005.html)

That Gandhi is quite aware of the distinction between remote and intermediate objectives is shown in his comment on a pamphlet circulated by the Western India National Liberal Association, a political opponent. The pamphlet characterized Gandhi's objectives as "No Railways. No Hospitals. No Technology. No army and navy will be wanted, because Gandhi will assure other nations that India would not interfere with them, and so they will not interfere with India! No laws necessary, no courts necessary, because every one will be law unto himself. Everybody will be free to do what he likes."

Presumption that all harmful desires will depart our way of thinking - that when we feel wrong whether real or imaged we will not be prone to intact revenge is to deny the human nature completely - would be even recognize the human spirit if it were absent of of all emotions deemed negative - and while we are on the subject who is to be appointed judge of what is a negative emotion???

All our emotions are what they are there is no good or bad emotion but there is productive and destructive reactions . .. this is to presume that all humans will be in full control over expression and I for one do not see this as realistic


In reply to the pamphlet, he pictures these immediate objectives as including railways, without their being used for military and economic exploitation; hospitals, but employed "more for those who suffer from accidents than from self-indulgence";

Who determine this - are we stil so primitive to see addictions as moral failings - is obesity a matter of indulgence or metabolism - do we damn those born with slow matobolism to starvation or do we dare use that evil technology to genetically menipulate folks so teh problem no longer exist???

Are we as physical beings not a result of natural forces ourselves - As this claims to answer many of the social ails I for one feel thsi line of denial will only create other types of ailments '

To deny any one medical care based upon an outdated presumption that gluttony and there fore the result thereof is some how willed into being is prosperous at best = the same goes for addiction To slap moral labels of these folks has been a failed technique of history -

Thus Gandhi's perspective on technology cannot be understood without some reference to his religious conceptions. According to a long tradition in Indian thought, the ordinary condition of humanity is not its real or ultimate being. People have within themselves a consciousness beyond reason and intellect which in the terminology of Hinduism is called the atman. It is the principle in us that is not to be identified with mind, body, or even "life," at least as we usually understand that word. To be fully aware of this higher level is to attain moksha, or salvation. And this awareness is associated with that of pure freedom and love. Gandhi accepts this teaching and attempts to relate it to his concerns in the political and social world.

If I am not free to hate as well as love I am not free - freedom means choice - diversity means destruction as well as production - For all the claims to nature the one obvious flaw - nature by it's very nature is destructive - Not all in nature is light and love as many woudl poerfer to see - Rainbos can notbe produced by sun alone - but require storms note that water a necessary element comes from storms which can be some of natures most destructive forces

Mountains that have us standing in awe came from the violence of volcanoes that destroyed all of life around them - What we see when as beautiful when admiring a mountain range is the re-birth what is being shunned is the destruction that opened the gates for that re-birth to even be possible


As long as darkness is denied it rules for that which you deny you can not confront much less control - the better approach in my humble opinion is balance - modification as in conscious direction . . ..

To live in all light and love is to cease to exist for it is the contrast brought about by diversity that allows us to be individuals within the whole of nature where nature is in us as we are in nature but Gandhi only wanted to see part of nature - nature is within the ALL Plants are as alive as animals - a chicken is as alive as a cow- we must consume life in order to maintain our own - the down and dirty ugly truth within ALL - the blissful destitution that is so carefully avoided in these ideas of all being light and love - Day includes night it does not exist separately


Okay I have to go back to work now - This is my response to the first half of the references to in praise of Gandhi - It is my hopes of offer a second perspective in which to ponder minus any obligation to agree or disagree

meadd823
01-04-11, 04:29 PM
SB impeccable timing . . . .reminds me of days past!

EshkaronsEngine
01-04-11, 06:07 PM
A terribly high (and thoroughly misplaced) impression of itself.

With loss of the delusion, we experience the mind lose its God delusion; with loss of the delusion comes humility (meekness).

The mind then grows the eyes to see that it is best characterized as a collection of protocols - as a technician
- and not a divine entity.

We're given the eyes to see that what we have liked to consider 'de novo creation' has been closer to 'copy and paste'.



I have the ability to see REALITY as such. Yet I tell everyone! My existential angst shall be in vain if I shall not one day meet The Maker:cool:

Scooter77
01-04-11, 06:39 PM
[quote=meadd823;995039]Some tid bits from the link to

In Praise of Gandhi (http://www.universalistfriends.org/sibley2005.html)

The pamphlet characterized Gandhi's objectives as "No Railways. No Hospitals. No Technology. No army and navy will be wanted, because Gandhi will assure other nations that India would not interfere with them, and so they will not interfere with India! No laws necessary, no courts necessary, because every one will be law unto himself. Everybody will be free to do what he likes."

Presumption that all harmful desires will depart our way of thinking - that when we feel wrong whether real or imaged we will not be prone to intact revenge is to deny the human nature completely

Human nature as it is now, in all its insanity...

would be even recognize the human spirit if it were absent of of all emotions deemed negative

Why wouldnt we?
Why so attached to negative emotions?
Maybe because they offer an excuse for damaging behaviours?...

All our emotions are what they are there is no good or bad emotion but there is productive and destructive reactions . .. this is to presume that all humans will be in full control over expression and I for one do not see this as realistic

More optimistic than realistic....and exactly the point, nothing is inherently good or bad, productive and destructive are much better terms.
The point is more that when we reach that state we still experience productive/destructive thoughts/emotions, but we have the awareness to see them for what they are, rather than assuming they are real and needing to act on them.

In reply to the pamphlet, he pictures these immediate objectives as including railways, without their being used for military and economic exploitation; hospitals, but employed "more for those who suffer from accidents than from self-indulgence";

Who determine this - are we stil so primitive to see addictions as moral failings - is obesity a matter of indulgence or metabolism - do we damn those born with slow matobolism to starvation or do we dare use that evil technology to genetically menipulate folks so teh problem no longer exist???

Without attachment there would not be addiction, or obesity, or a host of other issues. (I'm NOT suggesting x causes obesity and y doesnt, so please don't misunderstand).
Without attachment to social norms, addiction/obesity/whatever is not considered 'wrong' or 'unhealthy', however it is still unlikely to occur as this state has no attachment to substances or mind states that feed these diseases.
Without attachments there is no stress, the underlying factor of a lot of issues.

To deny any one medical care based upon an outdated presumption that gluttony and there fore the result thereof is some how willed into being is prosperous at best = the same goes for addiction To slap moral labels of these folks has been a failed technique of history -

Denying anything for any reason is not at all what Gandhi is speaking of.
Nobody is denied anything, medical care for those things is simply not needed as individuals are not facing the stresses and attachments that breed them.
Many illnesses and diseases are directly related to our hectic, selfish, stressful modern society. Take away the guilt, stress, anxiety, anger, have-to's, etc....

If I am not free to hate as well as love I am not free - freedom means choice - diversity means destruction as well as production

If you have a choice - why would you want to hate? Hate is an external manifestation of fear. If you have no underlying fear - you have no need for negative emotional states...
No fear that one is not good enough...that one is receiving less than entitled to... or less than another...that things will change...
In the state Gandhi speaks of, the choice is always available but noone has any need to hate.

For all the claims to nature the one obvious flaw - nature by it's very nature is destructive

Just because that is the way our society works, doesnt mean it's the only way....

Not all in nature is light and love as many woudl poerfer to see - Rainbos can notbe produced by sun alone - but require storms note that water a necessary element comes from storms which can be some of natures most destructive forces

You're using the 'good' and 'bad' labels. Gandhi's state doesn't use those labels, nothing is good or bad, it just is.
People are not attached to preferred outcomes becomes they know that everything is constantly changing and the only thing one has control over is their perception of the present moment.

As long as darkness is denied it rules for that which you deny you can not confront much less control - the better approach in my humble opinion is balance - modification as in conscious direction . . ..

Exactly - balance.
Nothing is denied....and nothing is judged....everything just is.
When something is not deemed 'bad' - it doesnt require 'fixing'.

To live in all light and love is to cease to exist for it is the contrast brought about by diversity that allows us to be individuals within the whole of nature where nature is in us as we are in nature but Gandhi only wanted to see part of nature

I completely disagree - Gandhi speaks of seeing all of nature as it is without being judged as good or bad.

It is my hopes of offer a second perspective in which to ponder minus any obligation to agree or disagree

Thankyou, appreciate your thoughts and the opportunity to discuss them - don't often have the chance in real life!

meadd823
01-05-11, 04:42 AM
We often hear heated conversations about how we'd be better off living in a world without religion, communism, machines ... ... ...
the problem though which is driving such criticism does not relate to religion, communism or machines per se - instead relating to what the human (immature) mind makes religion, politics, technology into ... ... ...

Okayyy so far . . .. I can agree that the perception and therefore reaction to these things is what has driven a majority of humanoids to unstable collections of delusions

It's interesting that an aspect of the delusion (described in Eastern religion) which the immature mind is imprisoned within -
is a God delusion, which the immature mind holds.

A terribly high (and thoroughly misplaced) impression of itself.

With loss of the delusion, we experience the mind lose its God delusion; with loss of the delusion comes humility (meekness).

The mind then grows the eyes to see that it is best characterized as a collection of protocols - as a technician
- and not a divine entity.



Okay your loosing me here = I generally understand without problems but admittedly I logged from behind the mental eight ball so to speak - got a few more irons in the fire and one of them directly relates to some of these things in this discussion and I struggle a bit to change gears -

I have never felt god like and I continue to bristle at any notion that I am some how a god / goddess - although a change in my spiritual path has offered me a bit more tolerance for those who do hold to this view.

I simply do not see myself as any thing more than a image of a spiritual being in physical form. I am far from meek and I have spent years awakening, not counting the years prior preparing. A decade has come and gone sense this all began some time in my mid-30's yet I do not feel like a deity but I know I am not a machine suffering from the absence of mind.

You are coming in from eastern thought which I have never been able to relate to very well - to much "nothingness" /emotional denial / mindfulness . . .One day I may "get it" but not before understanding my own spiritual origins from every angle possible even if that means learning a different language which is up there with parting of the red sea malicious





We're given the eyes to see that what we have liked to consider 'de novo creation' has been closer to 'copy and paste'.

Copy and paste nothing from nothing - or do you speak of the creations of humanity???

I am really unsure -

We see that all that we've (actually) achieved is borrow the properties of aspects of nature (chemistry, biochemistry) and chain them together to generate negligibly different properties -

- where, though,
(and this is the sting in the scorpion's tail)
- we're gradually coming to the realization that the very vast majority of technological protocols which we've introduced into reality -
were introduced too hastily ... ... ....

So ... ... is there anything intrinsically wrong with religion, political philosophy or technology ?
No - the problems which we may have observed with all of these and other systems are rooted firmly in the attribute of logical inconsistency in the primitive mind.

Of the primitive mind's draw towards introducing systems which benefit themself, without regard to the rest.

Okay the above I do mange to get and I agree completely . . ..



I'd argue that the primitive mind is not properly human; that it's not at original speciation event, instead only at subsequent speciation event when the organism can be considered to have acquired the emergent property -

- that up until now, and perhaps for a little while longer -
that the very vast majority of people who we describe comprising mankind, have not actually been human.

This kinda' idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gurdjieff
The primitive mind is not properly human.

When do we become properly human??


That the emergent structure/property doesn't emerge fully until the structure is complete; a process which takes time (physiological optimization of the structure) post-original speciation event.

In our case, the time taken for physiological optimization of the structure of the mind appears to have been ~30,000 years, with most of the 'action' appearing to have taken place within the last quarter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_writing) of this period.

I would say that the time has come for the next step in evolution at least for those who are able -

I do like the idea of all inclusion don't get me wrong - I do not feel any one is better than any one else however I do not believe all human souls are going to take the next step to spiritual enlightenment - in any way form or fashion. Many folks like those people Sandy refers to as " Mr. Corner Office" are happy in the materialistic reality. They are not interested in moving beyond the physical realm These folks cling to the material world with such vigor they believe with every fiber of their being they are the only thing in the universe that matters.

A horse can be lead to water however he can not be forced to "feel thirsty"! One must strive to reach beyond the door does not automatically open for any one - not in this physical reality.

sarek
01-05-11, 04:55 AM
I would say that the time has come for the next step in evolution at least for those who are able -

I do like the idea of all inclusion don't get me wrong - I do not feel any one is better than any one else however I do not believe all human souls are going to take the next step to spiritual enlightenment - in any way form or fashion. Many folks like those people Sandy refers to as " Mr. Corner Office" are happy in the materialistic reality. They are not interested in moving beyond the physical realm These folks cling to the material world with such vigor they believe with every fiber of their being they are the only thing in the universe that matters.

A horse can be lead to water however he can not be forced to "feel thirsty"! One must strive to reach beyond the door does not automatically open for any one - not in this physical reality.

You may well be right in saying that. But in ages past, the individual making that next step in evolution was, within the wider framework of all of humanity, merely a luxury.
Humanity as a whole functioned adequately with most people staying in our old stage of mental and spiritual evolution.

Now, however we have come to a day and age where such an evolution may become a necessity in order for humanity itself to survive.
And a time may soon come that even mr. Corner Office will feel like the hobbits in the shire, suddenly swept up by the tides of the world.

meadd823
01-05-11, 06:21 AM
Human nature as it is now, in all its insanity...

Sanity and insanity come by way of majority vote any way {IMHO}

Human nature is what it is in the here and now denying that won't help me or any one else – Wishing it were this instead of that is not going to take me one step closer to social diversity tolerance or spiritual enlightenment for that matter – so far working with what is seems to be the most logical approach to expanding social acceptance for various neurodiversities , life styles religious practices – ect. . . ect . . .

would be even recognize the human spirit if it were absent of of all emotions deemed negative


Why wouldnt we?
Why so attached to negative emotions?
Maybe because they offer an excuse for damaging behaviours?...


Because negative emotions are part of our emotional make up - beside what seems to be a negative in the detailed sense may not be so in the global sense – lets take anger – it is an emotion commonly seen as negative – and it can be destructive however it reality it's original reason for being is to act as an alarm – anger lets us know some thing isn't right – if harnessed it can also provide energy and motivation to do some thing to “right” the “wrong”

Okay and let me skip to this point



The point is more that when we reach that state we still experience productive/destructive thoughts/emotions, but we have the awareness to see them for what they are, rather than assuming they are real and needing to act on them.

The few emotions I do have feel pretty damn real to me – When you deny the reality of some one's emotions then there is no forum in which to address them because they are presumed to be “not real” or worthy of expressing – sorry but this is less tolerant than the world I already live in = no thank you – to consciously deny the darkness gives it permission to move under ground where it can act minus any conscious control – passive aggressive comes immediately to mind.


Without attachment to social norms, addiction/obesity/whatever is not considered 'wrong' or 'unhealthy', however it is still unlikely to occur as this state has no attachment to substances or mind states that feed these diseases.
Without attachments there is no stress, the underlying factor of a lot of issues.

This is to automatically presume that addictions and problems with weight come from social stresses again it a half truth because is leaving out the other half {the biological half} of the total picture – that is genetics – I once ran with a girl who ate less than I did moved around as much as I did yet she had a weight problem She wasn't heavy because she over ate, nor was she any more stressed out than I was she was heavy because it is a biological adaptation that allowed pre-modern humans to live during times of famine –

Well over 75% of alcoholics have a form of hypoglycemia but according to this “zen” existence this biological propensity would not even be explored hell it would be flat out denied!!!

When it comes of access to medical care who gets to determine what condition is self inflicted and what is accidental???



Many illnesses and diseases are directly related to our hectic, selfish, stressful modern society. Take away the guilt, stress, anxiety, anger, have-to's, etc....

Although I do not disagree that our life style causes a lot of health problems the fact that health problems exist in all parts of the world many being recorded through out history would in itself indicate that not all illness are caused by modern living or a crappy state of mind!

Take away anger and you have a population of door mats that would easily be over whelmed by the slightest aggression and lack motivation to correct any imbalances that would arise by a less than perfect population of humans.



If you have a choice - why would you want to hate? Hate is an external manifestation of fear. If you have no underlying fear - you have no need for negative emotional states...

To take way my choices as to how I feel is some how a better way of being ??

Hate normally comes from a combination of things not just fear!

You speak as if eliminating fear would be a good thing – ever purposely put your hand in a fire??? If our ancestors did not fear hungry tigers how long do you think the human species would have lasted – Fear within the confines of balance is a very good thing to have around! Fear is not the source of all bad things fear is the motivating factor behind running from bears and looking carefully before crossing streets

I have learned that pain is not my enemy – just as comfort is not always my friend – emotions are neither good or bad however they do exist for a reason better to find out those reason than to try and cram every one into some box in the name of enlightenment


Just because that is the way our society works, doesnt mean it's the only way....

No I meant nature as in mother nature the universal nature of things – We all must consume the life of another living thing {whether ir be plant or animal} in order to sustain our own. The old has to be destroyed before the new can emerge just as death must occur in order for birth to be possible – all things ride on the back of death that is universal law – in the physical plane


You're using the 'good' and 'bad' labels. Gandhi's state doesn't use those labels, nothing is good or bad, it just is.

Umm no I didn't I used forces of destruction and production even in my examples – I only addressed good and bad when responding to such references –



People are not attached to preferred outcomes becomes they know that everything is constantly changing and the only thing one has control over is their perception of the present moment.

People are DRIVEN by preferred outcomes!!! It does not matter if we can actually perceive even our present state of being as long as we think we can we will be driven by desired future outcome as well as past experiences.


Exactly - balance.
Nothing is denied....and nothing is judged....everything just is.
When something is not deemed 'bad' - it doesnt require 'fixing'.

Err this is confusing – did you just not advocate for the absence of all emotions considered “negative” such as anger and hate when I purposed their acceptance ??? Okay now I am confused again – a sign it is bed time!

Look I know Gandhi is a favorite of many and I thought long and hard before even daring to criticized any of his perspectives – I do not disagree with them they are nice dreams – but the original topic was Existentialism!! If we do not have the free will to determine our own direction in life then human nature does and our lives will follow that nature – not some Utopian dreams.

Speaking of nature I naturally tend to have problems rationally accepting any one who denies a decent portion of human nature and then present it as some sort of solution to what ailed us.

If any practical applicable answer to our present day social ailments is to be found they won't come from Utopian day dreams that are void of mundane / consensual reality

The expectations of that which is not possible is why many under go Existential Angst {I knew I could some how tie all this into the original topic}:D

I think you made several valid points - thank you for you posting I really do enjoy good thoughtful opposition -:)

Now it is time for me to say good night - I am going to feel like crap at work tomorrow - :o I guess it is to late to dread it now!

SB_UK
01-05-11, 07:45 AM
Gerry Rafferty (16 April 1947 – 4th January 2011) 4 January 2011 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkS169P_Eeo)

"He's got this dream about buyin' some land
He's gonna give up the booze and the one night stands
And then he'll settle down in a quiet little town
And forget about everything.

But you know he'll always keep movin'
You know he's never gonna' stop movin'
'Cus he's rollin'
He's the rollin' stone.

And when you wake up it's a new mornin'
The sun is shinin' it's a new morning
You're goin'
You're goin' home."

~*~

'And forget about everything'
Transcending the mind.

'You're goin' home'
There is only one definition of home; from whence we came.

The best lyricists are able to draw on intuition, often through pain.

'He's gonna give up the booze and the one night stands'.... ... he suffered from a chronic liver condition brought on by heavy drinking and died of liver disease on 4th January 2011.We're enslaved by the chemical reward system, with an innate vision ('He's got this dream about buying some land and settling down in a quiet little town') of escaping its clutches 'He's gonna' give up ...' -

- a dream which we've not been able to real-ize -
- which we've not known how to real-ize
'And then he'll settle down ... ...
... ... ...
But you know he'll always keep movin'
You know he's never gonna stop movin ... ...'

~*~

Death/Spiritual re-birth gives us the key to the door, which when we learn to walk through (Huxley's pure perception)
- allows us to experience pure existence (== pure perception)
- 'welcomed into the arms of God' works well as metaphor.

The story, though, is required to complicate - we're forced to examine why death is so commonly used in two contexts; why, the seeming need to apply the same word to two apparently separate events.

Two apparently separate events - which, it turns out, are remarkably similar from a certain perspective.

... ... at physical death - our 'essence' returns to the fundamental state which we're striving (enlightenment - followed by - dissociation (transcending the mind)) to experience whilst alive.

Although a little confusing - the take home message (I guess) is that the term paradise can be used for the state of mind which may be attained on spiritual re-birth (whilst still physically alive)
and
for the place/experience 1 which we (the human soul) encounter upon physical death.

That we may infer, that there's nothing to fear on physical death - for we're (the story of man has been of our) desperately striving ... ...
'And when you wake up it's a new mornin'
The sun is shinin' it's a new morning
You're goin'
You're goin' home.'
... ... to attain that state (resonance with that divine state) in 'real' life.

1 place/experience

place = noun
experience = verb

place = noun = structure
experience = verb = function


place = noun = structure = space
experience = verb = function = time

Divine (unknowable) projections into structured reality confer the attribute of an inextricable structure:function relationship.

In our case - the function of the human mind is to generate a properly social species (a species of individuals who are constrained to behave in the best interests of all people) -
- though, where, the function is required to bear structure (emergent structures are defined to possess a structure:function relationship since they're built up from a space:time matrix)
- though a structure which lies beyond our power of sight -

- though where it is resonation of the structure (completed) which we seek -
resonation of the structure underlying mind which we seek in order to give us the feeling (which we desire)
- that feeling of belonging.

"... ... That we're goin'
we're goin' home."

SB_UK
01-05-11, 08:10 AM
Acquiring the existential perspective accompanied by seeing through the delusion - shattering through one's own incarceration to chemical addiction
- the neurochemical mechanism which keeps the materialistic urge (of the delusion) in place:
"And it's taking you so long
To find out you were wrong
When you thought you had everything."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation
Thus, the “zero power” in the title refers not only to the power spectrum of the brain as measured by the Hilbert transform, but also to a psychological state of personal renunciation.

Materialism truly becomes unsupportable; we see the draw to ownership as an attribute of the delusion.

And the existential angst which we experience when we see that those people who have not yet been set free from the Matrix, are rather unkind.
"This city desert makes you feel so cold.
It's got so many people but it's got no soul"

Noting that everything in structured reality must contain soul.
This oft-used expression is meant to indicate that the individual whose soul has not resolved into shape (completed formation) - is 'cold' (behaves unkindly, is not socally aware, is not enforcedly constrained to moral behaviour).

Like structures resonate - scale is not important.

oo
ooo

oo
ooo

oo
ooo

~ Same difference ~

SB_UK
01-05-11, 08:27 AM
And so you're suggesting that through intentionally maintaining confusion between the terms death (spiritual re-birth) and death (physical death) - that, when deconvoluted, that the individual (thereafter) given a rational basis (which they believe) for why they should not fear (physical) death ?

Yes.

Well ain't that something.

:-)
Permission to live through freedom from fear of physical death.

EshkaronsEngine
01-05-11, 11:28 AM
To all the disenfranchised. To all those who look 4 for meaning let me say this. I am alive. I exist. Life is beautiful and so r we.

SB_UK
01-05-11, 12:07 PM
ho hum ... ... ... misplaced a post again - haven't done that for a while ... ...

Lost wondering whether the fear of physical death has been a large of part of what has kept the delusion/God delusion in place.
It's just that a rational loss of the fear in physical death ... ... ...
... ... might the rational loss in the fear of physical death be all that people need to draw back the curtains on delusion
and
truly
~ live ~

finitude

... ... ... it's just that - well ... ... ... spidey sense registerin' a Richter scale perfect 10.

~*~
No laws necessary, no courts necessary, because every one will be law unto himself.
And what is remarkable is that Gandhi was himself a lawyer.

The inner strength to see that the largest part of one's life has been spent labouring under a misguided paradigm.

Where that misguided paradigm is that people have the right to judge others as good or bad (that good and evil exist).
==
A definition of the God delusion.
I have never felt god like

Thanks - yes
... ... the mark of the God delusion (delusion) is the capacity to judge others as good or evil - to believe (truly) that good and evil exist.

We're born into the God delusion - as any parent who watches on as his child bursts into tears because they've been tasked with playing the role of 'baddie' in some game.
The child (like the lawyer) is trapped in a mindset which believes in the existence of good and evil, which believes it can define good from evil, which believes that it can define a good person from an evil person ... ... ...
The God delusion can be viewed as the default state of mind which is retained until appropriately educated.

And that's what the 'God delusion' represents - and not the other :-) - though some naughty scientists appear to (want to create the appearance (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1279988/Artificial-life-created-Craig-Venter--wipe-humanity.html) that they) have that ... ... ...

~s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldness)~J. Craig Venter (bald), whose complete DNA sequence has been published showing male pattern baldness :rolleyes:

There is no such thing as good and evil; the 'supposedly' evil act as reaction to unfair action; ours (human beings) to understand not to judge.

For instance in Pearl Jam,Jeremy (http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/jeremy-lyrics-pearl-jam/c7774b006a48e187482568620007e7be)-

"And he hit me with a surprise left
My jaw left hurtin
Ooh, dropped wide open"

where Jeremy's behaviour is reaction to action (abuse)

"Daddy didn't give attention, ohh
To the fact that mommy didn't care"

The law (where contract law predominates) is a body of text which maintains and expands inequality in material {worth,ownership}.

A thorough scientific description of the consequences of systems which maintain and expand inequality is provided here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spirit-Level-Societies-Almost-Always/dp/1846140390).

We're lead towards the conclusion that a judgmental legal system causes crime.

Neatly explaining why Gandhi is correct ... ... ...
"No laws necessary, no courts necessary, because every one will be law unto himself."

- and why the elimination of the human legal system is an important part of certain (for instance ~this (http://www.thevenusproject.com/the-venus-project-introduction/faq)~) projections of our future.

Faq# 59 How can the use of Laws be eliminated?~*~

I'd suggest that the transition to a legal system-less system pass through, as we find our feet, a system in which 12 random, normal human beings are selected for each case
- where from these 12 - a couple are chosen to present the two contrasting viewpoints - from which the 12 together make a collaborative decision on what they think is fair.

The onus placed on the group doing what they believe is fair; neatly re-uniting the human legal system (in its final throes) with justice.

No reliance on past precedents - simply to employ their own sense of right from wrong.

Noting though that this type of system would probably only be necessary for a relatively short period of time
- actually, if at all ... ... ...

Simply making the suggestion because I can feel the fear (completely unfounded, of course) that the West will regress into the lawlessness of the Wild West, without Judge Dredd and his equally inhumane fellows.

SB_UK
01-05-11, 12:41 PM
alive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5mrEAPMLk8

Stage I - Existential angst (finding the key to a locked door)
Stage II - Spiritual freedom (unlocking the door and walking through)

~s (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16699386)~ Dissociation, resting EEG, and subjective sleep experiences in undergraduates
"... ... while both delta and theta power were positively related to dissociation."

SB_UK
01-05-11, 12:59 PM
... ... the 'good' and 'bad' labels. Gandhi's state doesn't use those labels, nothing is good or bad ... ...
Exactly - balance.

...and nothing is judged...

Gandhi speaks of seeing all of nature as it is without being judged as good or bad.

I'm not too sure who I'm quoting from (above) - but as you see from the post a couple above -

- well it does rather :rolleyes: look as though I've copied.

Anyway - needless to say good comments - I agree.

SB_UK
01-05-11, 01:34 PM
Thus Gandhi's perspective on technology cannot be understood without some reference to his religious conceptions.
According to a long tradition in Indian thought, the ordinary condition of humanity is not its real or ultimate being.
People have within themselves a consciousness beyond reason and intellect which in the terminology of Hinduism is called the atman.
It is the principle in us that is not to be identified with mind, body, or even "life," at least as we usually understand that word.
To be fully aware of this higher level is to attain moksha, or salvation.
And this awareness is associated with that of pure freedom and love.
Gandhi accepts this teaching and attempts to relate it to his concerns in the political and social world.

This paragraph is word perfect.

A couple of trivial additions (which hopefully aid digestion) made in red.
Nope - deleted my comments - the paragraph stands wonderfully-well :-) alone.

EshkaronsEngine
01-05-11, 01:45 PM
Stage I - Existential angst (finding the key to a locked door)
Stage II - Spiritual freedom (unlocking the door and walking through)

~s (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16699386)~ Dissociation, resting EEG, and subjective sleep experiences in undergraduates
"... ... while both delta and theta power were positively related to dissociation."
I declare the door is yourself and the key is self awareness. Push yourself through the keyhole of self. A strange loop that appears to double bind but in the end looses the illusion of the knot of self. U tie urself up so u cannot escape. U R not 1 tied up and bundles inside. Truly U and I R nothing. We just aren't there. . Psychic death happens and u r reborn into ECSTASY!

SB_UK
01-05-11, 01:50 PM
Without attachment there would not be addiction, or obesity, or a host of other issues.


Primitive mind
expresses the God delusion
is trapped within a delusion
- a delusion which is maintained by addictive propensity (a neurochemical reward system)
which forms the basis of 'atachment' to {Worldly, mortal,physical} desires
- which dissolves to give way to a Modern mind which is fixed to the properly moral or social state.

And now annotated to aid interpretation

Primitive mind (developing mind)
expresses the God delusion (described in a post above - 'judgmental,good,evil')
is trapped within a delusion (described in the post above - 'moksha')
- a delusion which is maintained by addictive propensity (a neurochemical reward system) (the reward system which ADDers no longer find rewarding - hence our need for chemical supplementation)
which forms the basis of 'atachment' to {Worldly, mortal,physical} desires (the Scooter/MeADD quote above).
- which dissolves to give way to a Modern mind which is fixed to the properly moral or social state (the mechanism which gives rise to our capacity to behave with the synchronization observed in social communities such as the ant or bee).

SB_UK
01-05-11, 02:27 PM
place = noun = structure = space
experience = verb = function = time

A definition of the experiential perspective presented when we enter the promised land (paradise) of the spiritual state


place = noun = structure = space = pure existence (in the present)
experience = verb = function = time = pure perception (through dissociation - we transcend mind)
We just aren't there. (Effectively).
'Well another crazy day, you’ll drink the night away
And forget about everything'

'And then he’ll settle down, in some quiet little town
And forget about everything'Soooooo desperate to forget - or lose ourselves.

... ... into a state where ... ...
we're (effectively) no longer there

floating

fr
free
freel

freely

'with the sun shining,

it’s a new morning

and you’re goin' ... ...
and you find
and you find your way back ~home~'.

~*~

A strangely familiar shine to the place.

SB_UK
01-05-11, 02:51 PM
you find your way back ~home~'.'I'll find my way home (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/v/vangelis/ill+find+my+way+home_20143620.html)'

You know your will to be free
Is matched with love secretly.A loss of the delusion occurs with freedom of incarceration of will to the neurochemical reward system, where the chemical reward system is supplanted by a higher motivation (in ADD) -
- the informational (cf love (Jesus)) reward system.

You know your will to be free
Is matched with love secretly.

Exceptionally intuitive lyricists.

SB_UK
01-05-11, 02:57 PM
where

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

There is only one valid definition of home

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

(from whence we came)

EshkaronsEngine
01-05-11, 03:20 PM
(Effectively).
Soooooo desperate to forget - or lose ourselves.

... ... into a state where ... ...
we're (effectively) no longer there

floating

fr
free
freel

freely

'with the sun shining,

it’s a new morning

and you’re goin' ... ...
and you find
and you find your way back ~home~'.

~*~

A strangely familiar shine to the place.
There is a place where I go where nobody knows. A place I have being. This is the SECRET WORLD. To CUM here u must lose urself. Die 2 who u think u r and embrace the pure potential of NADA.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN1zO-ejJvE">listen 2 the reverb and join in the drums. U can reach ecstasy with me if when u see this u dance. I will channel and help u out my luv. U can do it.</a>

EshkaronsEngine
01-05-11, 03:34 PM
My children. U must. I repeat must forgive urself first for ur shortcomings. Then throw those shortcomings into the fires of existence and CUM play with me WHERE THE STREETS HAVE NO NAME

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDkBzkA9L4s">in a place of ungathered knowing there is the 1 who have always looked 4.

EshkaronsEngine
01-05-11, 03:42 PM
< a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk3Vz1PEoII"> my luv, u just must let go of TIME. It does not exist.</a>

SB_UK
01-05-11, 04:14 PM
Secret World, Peter Gabriel

In this house of make believe
Divided in two, like Adam and Eve

You put out and I receive
we are all the same

SB_UK
01-05-11, 04:29 PM
U2,Where... ...

I want -1 to feel, sunlight on my face -6

I see the dust cloud disappear -2
Without a trace I want -1 to take shelter -3
From the poison rain -5

Where the streets have no name -4He's got this dream -1 about buyin' some land
where he'll wake up -2 to a new morning
Where the sun is shining -6, it's a new morning
And he's going, he's going home -4

He's got this dream -1 about buyin' some land
He's gonna give up -3 the booze and the one night stands -5

And settle down in a quiet little town.
Where the streets have no name.

EshkaronsEngine
01-05-11, 05:03 PM
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGRdaRujDKg&feature=fvst">U must bring all ur baggage into the eidetic NOW! NOW is a beautiful day. Don't luk back my luv!</a>

SB_UK
01-05-11, 05:17 PM
Primitive mind
expresses the God delusion
is trapped within a delusion
- a delusion which is maintained by addictive propensity (a neurochemical reward system)
which forms the basis of 'atachment' to {Worldly, mortal,physical} desires
- which dissolves to give way to a Modern mind which is fixed to the properly moral or social state.

+

A loss of the delusion occurs with freedom of incarceration of will to the neurochemical reward system, where the chemical reward system is supplanted by a higher motivation (in ADD) -
- the informational (cf love (Jesus)) reward system.
The Primitive mind
expresses the God delusion
is trapped within a delusion
- a delusion which is maintained by addictive propensity (a neurochemical reward system)
which forms the basis of 'attachment' to {worldly, mortal,physical} desires

The Primitive mind
- which dissolves to give way to a Modern mind which is fixed to the properly moral or social state
- a Modern mind which unlike precursor has free will as attribute
- free will defined as a mind in which rationality defines behaviour

The transition from Primitive mind to Modern mind
occurring alongside the individual experiencing a shift from chemical to informational reward system (cf. love (Jesus)).

The transition from Primitive mind to Modern mind
resulting in a fundamentally different (more interconnected,holistic) perspective on reality.

Much moreso ... ... ...
because the logical mind is but technical protocol
... ... ... endowing the completed duality of body:mind with a property which we truly seek ... ...
the power to transcend the mind itself
... ... and ... ...
thereby ...
... the capacity to take up our place in Valhalla,
alongside our divine presence
we, ourselves, I

too nervous to make formal introduction.

EshkaronsEngine
01-05-11, 05:25 PM
I also believe that the ADHD mind is a wholistic mind. My mind is an at once mind. It all occurs NOW. On medication I am brought to bear the illusion of time and space. Without meds indeed I am a god. With meds - a supercomputer. I enjoy the binary tension created. Betwixt these 2 minds lies CREATION.

SB_UK
01-05-11, 05:32 PM
It was a beautiful day
Don't let it get away

It was the perfect day
What I'd give if I could find a way to stay

Where the beautiful/perfect day isn't a function of the day per se, instead relating to the frame of mind which (albeit in the sun) is held.
Lost [dissociation] in this moment now [in the present].

place = noun = structure = space = pure existence (in the present)
experience = verb = function = time = pure perception (through dissociation - we transcend mind)

EshkaronsEngine
01-05-11, 05:36 PM
There is something in the darkness that is beyond us. Last week I felt it. Like from another universe. A will o wisp from another entity. I can't wait 2 meet in this darkness. So many think that place is hell. No this is where it all meets and all begins. This is the Matrices of Existence. Where the fires burn cold and there is no air and nothing is clear. There is a language there past knowing. It can only be experienced.

SB_UK
01-05-11, 05:45 PM
With meds - a supercomputer.

http://nooneisreadingthis.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/marvin_the_robot.jpg

SB_UK
01-05-11, 05:48 PM
There is a language there past knowing. It can only be experienced.
Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know.+Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.

A logically balanced, internally logically consistent mind finds itself
'beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing'
==
Originally Posted by MeADD823 and Scooter77
... ... and nothing is judged...
... ... of seeing all of nature as it is without being judged as good or bad.has
completed its ascent of the Tree of Knowledge of ... ... ...

Access to the field (Tree if Life) is closed off to those bearing imbalanced mind; there is no way to evade the need for internal logical consistency prior to 'meeting there';
ain't no buyin' your way in -

- emergent structure formation is the purely meritocratic 'real deal'

- the purely meritocratic 'real deal' (or justice) which we yearn for in this world of inhumane corruption.

peripatetic
01-07-11, 06:23 AM
i realize this post may well seem off topic given the course this thread has taken. esh has expressed a desire to learn more about themes in existentialism as a philosophical movement (i.e. what is regarded by philosophers and professors of philosophy as such), and so i'm just throwing this in.

so, long ago i brought up the stranger because, while technically an absurdist novel, there are themes that offer "examples" of existentialism, for lack of a better phrasing at 2:00AM. so, back to the stranger and what insight/description it offers.

why does meursault at the end, why does he say "for all to be consummated, for me to feel less alone, i can only wish that there be a crowd of spectators and that they greet me with cries of hate"?? there is some...you can draw...you can root that, to some degree in the concept of hegelian recognition...i'm not going to go off on hegel, i'm just noting it, that there IS something about "being seen" by the other. sartre talks about "the gaze" so we'll think of it in those terms.

in some sense, existence is a hostile act. you're thrusting yourself, marking yourself out, on the world, against the world, on others. you're acting and those actions have repercussions, like a stone thrown into a pond, every one of them. and the most hateful reaction by "the other" to one marking out oneself is NOT to be despised. he says "greet me with cries of hate" because ultimately it's not about someone hating you or someone loving you; it's about being seen, acknowledged, *recognized* as subject. it's about... it's about not being ignored because that's what is truly the worst, most offensive, action one can take against another: the worst is to be ignored. to be ignored by the other in marking out self, instantiating self by bringing oneself into existence through choices.

choosing oneself as expressed in/by/through "this" necessarily means NOT choosing a host of the "thats"; it means rejecting as much as selecting. i choose *this*. i choose this and i bring with me all of the choices i've made before because without them i could not choose now. and, whether i've suffered or delighted, i HAVE BEEN, which brings me to right now, this moment where i CAN BE. and i mark out *this* as me, i express me as and through *this*, all of me, wholly me, authentically me. that is, appropriately, termed "authenticity". to carry all of oneself is one of the reasons nietzsche is often loosely thought an existentialist (although technically he's not "an existentialist") is because there is something about the eternal return.

to say "encore", to affirm it all, as one's own, *as* one, that concept of authenticity and what it demands--and it is merciless in its demands--that is the core of the precept that "existence precedes essence". that there is not a color-by-number. reject having lived, living in, bad faith; reject the relinquishment of freedom in favor of dignity, of authenticity.

life is lived in light of facticity, in a world that is "given", but it is, albeit an imposition, because necessarily made *against*, action of marking self out against and in the world...a world populated by "others". at the end of the day, what makes it meaningful, in a way, what can be said an "ethical life" a "good life" is that you mark out yourself, you mark it out, that you not *******ize whatever potential is given. you not only accept...it's not accept...it's that you *rejoice* that each is an artist creating person. that you take choice by the balls. you infuse a colorless backdrop with meaning because you impose yourself and thereby create yourself through each expression, action, reaction, whatever you instantiate in that moment.

and at the end of the day, you have done YOU. you have been YOU and thereby created YOU. each marking out is *yours* and you would rise and have only one word to say, ultimately. if there were a second before death, a moment of lucidity, "soundness mind" (i.e. without the relinquishment and disownership of self that is what's called "bad faith"), that your sole statement be "ENCORE".

the connection here to existentialism, what is shown in the stranger: mark out yourself "authentically" and capture the gaze of "the other". the pitfalls: saying "encore" means affirming it all (not "no regrets", but, YES, in its entirety, THAT IS ME) and hell is other people.

SB_UK
01-07-11, 10:22 AM
i realize this post may well seem off topic given the course this thread has taken. esh has expressed a desire to learn more about themes in existentialism as a philosophical movement (i.e. what is regarded by philosophers and professors of philosophy as such), and so i'm just throwing this in.

so, long ago i brought up the stranger because, while technically an absurdist novel, there are themes that offer "examples" of existentialism, for lack of a better phrasing at 2:00AM. so, back to the stranger and what insight/description it offers.

why does meursault at the end, why does he say "for all to be consummated, for me to feel less alone, i can only wish that there be a crowd of spectators and that they greet me with cries of hate"?? there is some...you can draw...you can root that, to some degree in the concept of hegelian recognition...i'm not going to go off on hegel, i'm just noting it, that there IS something about "being seen" by the other. sartre talks about "the gaze" so we'll think of it in those terms.

in some sense, existence is a hostile act. you're thrusting yourself, marking yourself out, on the world, against the world, on others. you're acting and those actions have repercussions, like a stone thrown into a pond, every one of them. and the most hateful reaction by "the other" to one marking out oneself is NOT to be despised. he says "greet me with cries of hate" because ultimately it's not about someone hating you or someone loving you; it's about being seen, acknowledged, *recognized* as subject. it's about... it's about not being ignored because that's what is truly the worst, most offensive, action one can take against another: the worst is to be ignored. to be ignored by the other in marking out self, instantiating self by bringing oneself into existence through choices.

choosing oneself as expressed in/by/through "this" necessarily means NOT choosing a host of the "thats"; it means rejecting as much as selecting. i choose *this*. i choose this and i bring with me all of the choices i've made before because without them i could not choose now. and, whether i've suffered or delighted, i HAVE BEEN, which brings me to right now, this moment where i CAN BE. and i mark out *this* as me, i express me as and through *this*, all of me, wholly me, authentically me. that is, appropriately, termed "authenticity". to carry all of oneself is one of the reasons nietzsche is often loosely thought an existentialist (although technically he's not "an existentialist") is because there is something about the eternal return.

to say "encore", to affirm it all, as one's own, *as* one, that concept of authenticity and what it demands--and it is merciless in its demands--that is the core of the precept that "existence precedes essence". that there is not a color-by-number. reject having lived, living in, bad faith; reject the relinquishment of freedom in favor of dignity, of authenticity.

life is lived in light of facticity, in a world that is "given", but it is, albeit an imposition, because necessarily made *against*, action of marking self out against and in the world...a world populated by "others". at the end of the day, what makes it meaningful, in a way, what can be said an "ethical life" a "good life" is that you mark out yourself, you mark it out, that you not *******ize whatever potential is given. you not only accept...it's not accept...it's that you *rejoice* that each is an artist creating person. that you take choice by the balls. you infuse a colorless backdrop with meaning because you impose yourself and thereby create yourself through each expression, action, reaction, whatever you instantiate in that moment.

and at the end of the day, you have done YOU. you have been YOU and thereby created YOU. each marking out is *yours* and you would rise and have only one word to say, ultimately. if there were a second before death, a moment of lucidity, "soundness mind" (i.e. without the relinquishment and disownership of self that is what's called "bad faith"), that your sole statement be "ENCORE".

the connection here to existentialism, what is shown in the stranger: mark out yourself "authentically" and capture the gaze of "the other". the pitfalls: saying "encore" means affirming it all (not "no regrets", but, YES, in its entirety, THAT IS ME) and hell is other people.


I understand.

Essence precedes Existence from the perspective of meta-Universal observer.

Existence precedes Essence from the perspective of (most notably) close to complete emergent structure formation in some evolving evolutionary thing (such as man with 'nearly' mind).

The close to complete emergent structure yearns for existence, which occurs prior to a glimpse of essence
- occurring immediately alongside the then complete emergent structure
actually feeling a sense of belonging.

In the final stages of completion of emergent structure/property formation - the 'thing/property' (in our case - the perspective which the mind offers) does not feel 'real'; the 'reality' which the close to complete emergent structure offers doesn't feel real - it can sense that it's about to offer a more solid perception of reality (and that this transition is just around the corner), and it grows disaffected in its current 'limbo' state
- awaiting the transition
... ... wondering whether there's anything that it can do to hasten the transition to a reality more real.

Does anything in our current society (of the things we're expected to do) make sense to the mind which is defined to believe that 'the unexamined life is not worth living for a human being' ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsCD5XCu6CM

~*~

A sense of belonging, only when we arrive at a very specific definition of ~home~
- an internal promised land which is accessed through transcending mind.

Through transcending mind, we get to actually feel real.

SB_UK
01-07-11, 11:14 AM
"I can only wish that there be a crowd of spectators and that they greet me with cries of hate"The crowd jeering at the crucifixion; evolutionary change requires that the previous status quo be broken (Stabile - social impulse).
Although evolution works by increasing the strength of the social impulse -
it operates through first dissolving precursor (which is dis-orientating, opposed, feared) before setting in place replacement.

The period of transition is messy.

Until the novel (higher) social impulse is safely in place
- people heard to long for the 'good old days'
- a call which will grow weaker as time passes
- and which will ultimately (and hopefully soon) change (when the new social model settles in) to
- 'Can you actually believe that we used to behave like that ?'

Can you actually believe that some people sought and were successful in acquiring more when the very vast majority did not have enough to survive ?
Can you actually believe that criminals used to exist and were locked up for the whole of their lives ?
Can you actually believe that we accepted the existence of war ?
Can you actually believe that private corporations were allowed to profit from war ?
Can you actually believe that cigarette companies were able to deny the link between smoking and lung cancer ?
Can you actually believe that the rich collected cars, like 3 year old children - but that by 5 years of age, most children (unlike the rich adult) outgrow the habit ?

And so it continues... ... a list which shouldn't be this simple to compile ... ... thought barely required ... ...

~*~

Have human beings been doing anything 'right' ?

EshkaronsEngine
01-07-11, 11:23 AM
and at the end of the day, you have done YOU. you have been YOU and thereby created YOU. each marking out is *yours* and you would rise and have only one word to say, ultimately. if there were a second before death, a moment of lucidity, "soundness mind" (i.e. without the relinquishment and disownership of self that is what's called "bad faith"), that your sole statement be "ENCORE".

the connection here to existentialism, what is shown in the stranger: mark out yourself "authentically" and capture the gaze of "the other". the pitfalls: saying "encore" means affirming it all (not "no regrets", but, YES, in its entirety, THAT IS ME) and hell is other people.
Interesting my love. Encore is the new more. This is always what I want all the time. What I already have plus what I don't. Bless u my child:p

EshkaronsEngine
01-07-11, 11:28 AM
There is something in the darkness that is beyond us. Last week I felt it. Like from another universe. A will o wisp from another entity. I can't wait 2 meet in this darkness. So many think that place is hell. No this is where it all meets and all begins. This is the Matrices of Existence. Where the fires burn cold and there is no air and nothing is clear. There is a language there past knowing. It can only be experienced.
Attention! By peripatetic's love I have reached the other side. It is green and lush. I have dissembled the deux ex machina. I have revolved around this earth. The water bearer has arrived everyone. It is time to celebrate!

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/3900000/Boris-Vallejo-s-PISCES-The-Fish-boris-vallejo-3914761-693-893.jpg

EshkaronsEngine
01-07-11, 06:48 PM
Today I am experiencing a lot of existential angst. I have a friend I love to death who lives over 1000 miles away and have no idea when I will see in person.
I seem to only live in my head. Like nothing is translating into REALITY. I hate my life and thru this hate I intend to change it. To be aware that u r alone in this world is extremely upsetting and causes one to come to an end of oneself. Through this there is the possiblilty of change and progress.

EshkaronsEngine
01-07-11, 06:55 PM
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t9tzCUZuWQ&feature=autoplay&list=PLC24F2F2BFF6A0CAE&index=4&playnext=1">there is this sad music of existence. I cannot deny it's allure. It draws me toward the death of self every time.

EshkaronsEngine
01-07-11, 07:00 PM
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il4VDf-ugPI&feature=autoplay&list=PLC24F2F2BFF6A0CAE&index=6&playnext=3">the angst comes from knowing when u look inside that u r empty. If u let it there's a trembling that stirs and the universe comes to fill your soul with music.</a.>

bumpey
01-07-11, 07:08 PM
at the end of the day, we're just a mass off energy, so what makes it complicated, humans are weird, born, school, college, uni, work, retire, die. i dropped out at school, treid college, work doesn't work, yet people climb, climb, climb to a level/suces, then what, realise there old, what just happened? suces measured by car/house/tv/look at my little jonny/jane. hmm whats the point to life, think they missed it, living by rules, they have to be told what is right and wrong

EshkaronsEngine
01-07-11, 07:31 PM
at the end of the day, we're just a mass off energy, so what makes it complicated, humans are weird, born, school, college, uni, work, retire, die. i dropped out at school, treid college, work doesn't work, yet people climb, climb, climb to a level/suces, then what, realise there old, what just happened? suces measured by car/house/tv/look at my little jonny/jane. hmm whats the point to life, think they missed it, living by rules, they have to be told what is right and wrong
I don't believe in rules anymore. My best friend won't break a rule that leaves me sickening to death. F the rules. Love conquers all!

EshkaronsEngine
01-10-11, 05:24 PM
What I deeply desire is to instantiate EIDOS. Stretched as long as I can be. Up and out. Unfettered. The sun steaming down thru the leaves and the smell of earth and forest floor under my feet.

Anchored because of and stretched wide and taking it in and confirming,*yes* And knowing that I am good. Sufficient and beautiful and true and just.

And to carry*that*with me 2. to go forward confirming that moment in all future moments. Not just to have witnessed it, but to have *been*it. For the rest of my life. Every further moment is appreciation and respect for having given and received that moment.

Thank u my beautiful, intelligent, poetic friend peripatetic for these words.

EshkaronsEngine
01-11-11, 10:52 AM
My view on reality is that there r binary tensions of movement and in those movements and struggles to instantiate eidetic good by marking out self you experience life and perhaps it's possible to have knowledge, but I pursue knowledge for the pursuit and hope to be in the conversation. I don't have to be the light bearer... but I would like to see the light. But pursuit is passion and live is lived in binary tensions of acted-acting; thought-thinking; lived-living as we carry up and reaffirm what we are by confirming each moment who we've been in marking out what *IS* me in thought-action-reaction.

Thank u peripatetic for these insightful words. Man! Never has a woman said a more profound statement except perhaps the last post:p

EshkaronsEngine
01-11-11, 04:31 PM
While the epic moments that punctuate the underlying wave are earth shattering, the wave that is the substrate demands acknowledgment for its continuous presence. The discrete moments may bring me both literally and figuratively to my knees, but the underlying current us the bedrock.

There is both impulse and a return to rest. Evolving stasis, a contradiction in terms, an oxymoron, out of which the dynamic leaps burst forth. Like fish leaping out of the flowing river to have the sunlight glint off their scales. Pieces covering a whole that look grey in the water but turn brilliant blues and greens when seen by the sun.

Peripatetic:p

EshkaronsEngine
01-13-11, 01:39 PM
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Iw78NmXUHJA">And as the LIGHT gleams down upon our heads let us take up this charge; 2 live, laugh and love but the greatest of these is LOVE</a>

EshkaronsEngine
01-28-11, 07:07 PM
<!--><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} </style> <![endif]--> How does one [I]SEIZE THE DAY? How does one potentiate oneself? How does one suck the marrow out of life? I think there is one essential idea one must contain within one's mind. It is that time is the ultimate truth. Carpe diem. Seize the day. One must wake up every morning with the realization that this could be their last. This day could be the last time one had to contribute to the ongoing saga of human contact. There are people who go throughout their day without a consideration of the reality of this. In order to get a mindset that says " I shall conquer you!" One must bring all of their past, all of their baggage into the present moment. This creates the EIDOS.

Bezuidenthustra
01-28-11, 08:01 PM
since you're studying french, and it's originally in french: l'etranger, by camus. it's not the greatest novel ever written, in my opinion, but it's short sweet (well, as sweet as it can be given topic) and hits on a couple of key themes, not to mention that what the protagonist claims is his only wish in the end is classic.

camus and sartre were VERY close until their famous falling out over political differences, among other things, and sartre's very public dissolution of their friendship. sartre is one of the philosophers most rightfully associated with existentialism and i'll talk about something from his seminal work (being and nothingness) upon return...but you may need to remind me again because i'm a bit loopy with the whole shopping b.s. and so forth:)

PS: camus' works are widely available in translation, too;)

My second-favorite novel of all time. Sadly I've only been able to read translations.

Can anyone guess my favorite? It's set in the first half of the twentieth century.

Bezuidenthustra
01-28-11, 08:06 PM
i realize this post may well seem off topic given the course this thread has taken. esh has expressed a desire to learn more about themes in existentialism as a philosophical movement (i.e. what is regarded by philosophers and professors of philosophy as such), and so i'm just throwing this in.

so, long ago i brought up the stranger because, while technically an absurdist novel, there are themes that offer "examples" of existentialism, for lack of a better phrasing at 2:00AM. so, back to the stranger and what insight/description it offers.

why does meursault at the end, why does he say "for all to be consummated, for me to feel less alone, i can only wish that there be a crowd of spectators and that they greet me with cries of hate"?? there is some...you can draw...you can root that, to some degree in the concept of hegelian recognition...i'm not going to go off on hegel, i'm just noting it, that there IS something about "being seen" by the other. sartre talks about "the gaze" so we'll think of it in those terms.

in some sense, existence is a hostile act. you're thrusting yourself, marking yourself out, on the world, against the world, on others. you're acting and those actions have repercussions, like a stone thrown into a pond, every one of them. and the most hateful reaction by "the other" to one marking out oneself is NOT to be despised. he says "greet me with cries of hate" because ultimately it's not about someone hating you or someone loving you; it's about being seen, acknowledged, *recognized* as subject. it's about... it's about not being ignored because that's what is truly the worst, most offensive, action one can take against another: the worst is to be ignored. to be ignored by the other in marking out self, instantiating self by bringing oneself into existence through choices.

choosing oneself as expressed in/by/through "this" necessarily means NOT choosing a host of the "thats"; it means rejecting as much as selecting. i choose *this*. i choose this and i bring with me all of the choices i've made before because without them i could not choose now. and, whether i've suffered or delighted, i HAVE BEEN, which brings me to right now, this moment where i CAN BE. and i mark out *this* as me, i express me as and through *this*, all of me, wholly me, authentically me. that is, appropriately, termed "authenticity". to carry all of oneself is one of the reasons nietzsche is often loosely thought an existentialist (although technically he's not "an existentialist") is because there is something about the eternal return.

to say "encore", to affirm it all, as one's own, *as* one, that concept of authenticity and what it demands--and it is merciless in its demands--that is the core of the precept that "existence precedes essence". that there is not a color-by-number. reject having lived, living in, bad faith; reject the relinquishment of freedom in favor of dignity, of authenticity.

life is lived in light of facticity, in a world that is "given", but it is, albeit an imposition, because necessarily made *against*, action of marking self out against and in the world...a world populated by "others". at the end of the day, what makes it meaningful, in a way, what can be said an "ethical life" a "good life" is that you mark out yourself, you mark it out, that you not *******ize whatever potential is given. you not only accept...it's not accept...it's that you *rejoice* that each is an artist creating person. that you take choice by the balls. you infuse a colorless backdrop with meaning because you impose yourself and thereby create yourself through each expression, action, reaction, whatever you instantiate in that moment.

and at the end of the day, you have done YOU. you have been YOU and thereby created YOU. each marking out is *yours* and you would rise and have only one word to say, ultimately. if there were a second before death, a moment of lucidity, "soundness mind" (i.e. without the relinquishment and disownership of self that is what's called "bad faith"), that your sole statement be "ENCORE".

the connection here to existentialism, what is shown in the stranger: mark out yourself "authentically" and capture the gaze of "the other". the pitfalls: saying "encore" means affirming it all (not "no regrets", but, YES, in its entirety, THAT IS ME) and hell is other people.

Thanks for not going off about Hegel. Seriously. As a former scholar of the philosophy of history, I'm relieved.

I'm marking this post for myself to get back to later. Intriguing.