View Full Version : So easy a cavaman can do it: invalidating ppl with suspected MI


Mignon
12-03-10, 07:41 PM
MI = mentally ill


I don't know if I'll post this since I want to just not think about this morning's appointment, but maybe typing this will purge it from my system and some other good could come of it.

It takes me a lot to go to make a doctor's appointment. Before being diagnosed as ADHD in October, I'd see a doctor once every couple of years, if you spread it those appoinments out evenly. There have been a stretches of almost four years when I have not gone.

Anyway I've had more appointments lately and I've noticed a lot of flip flopping when nurses and doctors speak to me, with the exception of one nurse and one doctor, the result being that I leave with an rx for xanax or ativan and a recommendation to seek therapy from a professional they can refer me to. By flip flopping I mean they contradict themselves.

This morning's appointment:

Me: I'm thinking that if I'm going to be shifting my efforts from maintaining unmedicated symptoms to maintaining drug side effects --

Doc: Side effects, what side effects?

Me: I just just mean with wellbutrin, my awareness and focus doesn't improve and my brain isn't waking up, just some negative symptoms are improved a little, but not enough for me to put up with the side effects -

Doc: Well what side effects?

Me: Oh uh, hair falling out, the feeling of dread and surreal surroundings that comes from nowhere and lasts - I only have experienced that on wellbutrin -

Doc: Well, those things, you don't know what those things can be attributed to. What else?

Me: High resting heart rate or 96 when I lay down and do nothing for a while -

Doc: Well, I have in your file tht it's 86, so [translation: you didn't take your rhr correctly or at all, Mignon]

Me: oh, well I wasn't on wellbutrin when that was taken. the blood pressure rises a lot on wellbutrin all day. It's not terrible but I do get headaches - I mean to say that if I'll be managing side effects instead of symptoms, they're both like a lifestyle to me so I may as well rethink --

Doc: Well, Ok. The power of suggestion blah blah blah sixth grade science le$$on, on the clock! blah blah blah how basic science werks blah blah blah I know because I've got a direct line to Sir Francis Galton via ouiji board and once - weekly seance channeling blah blah blah < --- ok I'm taking liberties. We can't really be 100% sure that Sir Francis Galton ever died. Because of science.

______________________

I'm not kidding. It was even worse than I type. I can't count how many times I've been told that symptoms and side effects are in my mind, even when a nurse or doctor mine it out of me and even though I am careful to not seem like I'm whining.

This time I actually said "The power of suggestion - well then exactly! Why even take drugs at all if it's that strong. I'll just fake it till I fake it some more!"

What I am saying is that that was the least hostile part of my appointment.

Ok that was not a good example of flip flopping, but flip flopping kept happening on his part. He also said "You're really, really confused" - reminding me that I'm the mentally ill and therefore wrong one, never forget! - and "You seem confused" and also "I - I don't know what you're saying. I don't know what you mean." He said those a lot.

Yeah, it kept getting worse.

Just venting I guess for now. Sigh. Cue Mugatu clip... :rolleyes:

avjgirsijdhtjhs
12-03-10, 08:00 PM
Other than "heart attack", what does "MI" mean? Googling up "MI acronym" isn't going to work far that one.

Mignon
12-03-10, 08:03 PM
Other than "heart attack", what does "MI" mean? Googling up "MI acronym" isn't going to work far that one.

I ran out of room in post title - Mentally Ill

avjgirsijdhtjhs
12-03-10, 08:06 PM
I leave out the spaces and punctuation marks when that happens. But then in your case, you'd have to eliminate 11 of them.

Mignon
12-03-10, 08:10 PM
Ileaveoutthespacesandpunctuationwhenthathappens

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY_oKve-bH0

LaVieEnRose
12-03-10, 08:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DVAsmrwdtQ
Mignon, ugh. I'm so sorry your appointment was such a bad experience. It sounds traumatizing! "You're really, really confused" .. uh, yeah buddy, because I'm here seeking help and you're treating me like an idiot! That is a little perplexing, isn't it?

Or maybe it was the other way around. He sounds like he was confused! With good reason, he wasn't listening to what you were saying, or allowing you to express what it is you're experiencing with the meds. And I have to say, it sounds like you did a great job communicating given that he was blatantly cutting you off, pressuring you, discounting what you were saying. I'd need some Xanax or Ativan just to simmer down from going in there. They should pass those out like mints on your way out (and in) their office.

In my experience, doctors that treat you like that DON'T know what THEY are doing, and have to make you look like the nut. I'm so sorry you had to deal with this quack today. :( I've dealt with a few of these morons myself, and all I can say is they're in need of medication much more than you are! Here's a vid for your "doctor." (Sorry the quality isn't great)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDA4lcw8k1g

Fortune
12-03-10, 08:23 PM
I have had so many experiences like this.

I hated arguing with doctors over the side effects of the SSRIs I took.

Mignon
12-03-10, 08:28 PM
I have had so many experiences like this.

I hated arguing with doctors over the side effects of the SSRIs I took.


It's weird. I'm not glad to hear that that happened to you too, and I don't really like commisery (and I don't think that you do), but I think there's something satisfying and healing about being validated after being so invalidated. If that makes sense.

Fortune
12-03-10, 08:31 PM
It's weird. I'm not glad to hear that that happened to you too, and I don't really like commisery (and I don't think that you do), but I think there's something satisfying and healing about being validated after being so invalidated. If that makes sense.

Yes, it does.

Mignon
12-03-10, 08:38 PM
I leave out the spaces and punctuation marks when that happens. But then in your case, you'd have to eliminate 11 of them.

I'm responding to this not to be tedious but b/c it matters here - I could have typed The mentally ill but I agree that People with mental illness (?) is best esp. on a post griping about invalidation. A person is not their medical condition and all that... but I suspect you know that :)

Mignon
12-03-10, 08:49 PM
Mignon, ugh. I'm so sorry your appointment was such a bad experience. It sounds traumatizing! "You're really, really confused" .. uh, yeah buddy, because I'm here seeking help and you're treating me like an idiot! That is a little perplexing, isn't it?


_______

He reeeeallly wanted to scratch me out an rx for Quit being such a GD harpy
ha ha

I can poke fun now but I don't enjoy going to the doctors or talking about my struggles with unsympathetic people, or even feeling the need to gripe about those appts. later, same way a standed passenger just wants to get home.

Mignon
12-04-10, 03:21 AM
I just chatted with Syndrox who said that it sounds like this Dr. is an addict, that he can spot 'em, can always tell. MAybe not as whoever doles out drugs could qualify as co dependent if you ask me. Dog in the fight and all that.

For context, I thought it was going to be a short appointment. I decided shortly before the appointment that I should show up in person rather than cancel on short notice and pay more money for a cancel than for a brief pop in. I figured I'd tell the Dr. in person that I did not want to take wellbutrin or any rx drug at all for the time being and just look to natural ways to-

Interruption!

two weeks before, this same doctor discouraged me from wanting to try anything other than wellbutrin for now, and downplayed the rx route altogether, saying that I ought to even embrace my ADHD as a positive (not sweepingly dismissive at all! Besides, who will people his world if not the colorful types?!), since it takes all kinds. So because of our previous chat, it felt natural to update him on my non -rx - for - now thoughts. Oops. What I had in mind by "natural ways" was like, pulling up peer reviewed studies on Google scholar for type and duration of exercise, any good news relating to beer, and like sipping yerba mate and assorted stimulant teas that I haven't tried before. Does this doctor not know that non rx methods are studied scientifically for different things, and peer reviewed also? My plan was to try out non addictive and non rx methods for like a month or two, then give adderall a shot if I thought that I needed it.

I'm having a tough time with side effects for little payoff plus major drug use and addiction issues in my family. Like I told the doctor and have mentioned here, two of my cousins died at different times in their twenties from heroin overdose. They weren't poor runaways either - peoples' image of a heroin user, of other / not me. Anyway the doctor would never know what I meant by "non rx" since he took the reigns and picked apart, with an indignant tone, my responses. An hour. He initiated a debate with me - paid for by me (well my dad but still), and I was caught off guard and spun around by it*. Then he must have seen the furrow in my brow that read as "WTF" as I listened to his cocked and loaded Demon Haunted World spiel, because he kept telling me that I "seem so confused" in a faux concern tone. I'd have been able to follow along better if he didn't contradict himself every third sentence during his soliliquy.

*A major thing I've struggled with is thinking clearly and performing, as in sports while being watched expectantly. In fact this is my major, lifelong symptom. I think other people experience this to a degree; my dial goes to eleven. So, I just sat and struggled through completing a sentence through the appointment, thinking clearly about it on the way home. Thus the stewing and the post. I think it relates to norepinephrine, which is another post altogether.

Somewhere on a blog, this doctor might be stabbing out his version. Anyway I wanted to empty my mind before going to bed, lucky you.

zannie
12-04-10, 06:04 AM
i have always felt anxiety because of my perception of being observed, scrutinized, too quicklly moving into feeling criticised. It is one of the things i have really, and still do, struggle with. :)

peripatetic
12-04-10, 07:22 AM
i'm overall stunned...but i've only done my general skim, so maybe i'll have something more later. at present i only have questions:

1. how many times have you seen this person?

2. is he a psychiatrist? and, if so, did he diagnose you?

3. do you have any other options for mental healthcare or (i've heard this is NOT the route to take if you have co-existing conditions, but, assuming you don't) do you have a knowledgable general practicioner you trust who stays as current as possible and is at least moderately knowledgable about adhd?

4. (rhetorical) where the hell are these doctors coming from? admittedly my major 'side effect' from my medications (which do not include wellbutrin, if that matters) is increased thirst. really. i've been taking them for years and i have to take a lot...but i've NEVER had a psychiatrist (when just starting with someone new or after i've been seeing the person for a few years) be so dismissive and completely ignore me so he can wax on about something that's not nearly as important as side effects you're experiencing. even if it IS all in your head (which...heart rate is heart rate and if it's creating an increase due to anxiety...it's still the new thing that's been introduced in your life that's concerning), well...he should be addressing that. i guess i've never had a psychiatrist tell me i'm confused either--probably wrote it in medical chart:p--but, seriously, i've never really been confused about what medication does...but i have lacked the terminology to describe certain things and, of course, staying on topic. what strikes me as so odd is that even now, my current psychiatrist always goes over these specific dosage and timing questions and other stuff...but, really, i definitely do the VAST majority of the talking and he's more directing me, if that makes sense. maybe it's just as simple as saying i've never had a psychiatrist go on and on in an appointment or steer the conversation to anything tangential...i mean, that's my job to try and go off on tangents, yeah?;)

the upshot here is i think, if at all possible, you should investigate other mental healthcare options. not because i think he's a drug addict...that kinda came out of left field for me, actually:confused:...but because i think he's not a very good doctor and it sounds like you lack the requisite trust in his expertise and feeling of working together to address your concerns.

best wishes to you:)

Mignon
12-04-10, 03:49 PM
1. how many times have you seen this person?

2. is he a psychiatrist? and, if so, did he diagnose you?[quote]

This was my second visit. He is my fifth doctor. Either I keep getting duds or it's me or both. But seeing how my major complaint is difficulty finishing a thought or sentence while being / feeling watched, under bright lights --- and their JOBS are mostly listening and communicating...

[quote]
3. do you have any other options for mental healthcare or (i've heard this is NOT the route to take if you have co-existing conditions, but, assuming you don't) do you have a knowledgable general practicioner you trust who stays as current as possible and is at least moderately knowledgable about adhd?


I've been seeing family physicians so far until can get into the town psychiatrist who is very booked up as of no into January. I did see another psychiatrist, one who visits monthly, but I walked out maybe fifteen minutes in. It was worse then this latest doctor, who I did not walk out on. I feel like I need a witness or advocate with me when I go to these appointments. A patient shouldn't brush up on their debate skills / feel like they ought to videotape appointments for their own good.


4. i've NEVER had a psychiatrist (when just starting with someone new or after i've been seeing the person for a few years) be so dismissive and completely ignore me so he can wax on about something that's not nearly as important as side effects you're experiencing. even if it IS all in your head (which...heart rate is heart rate and if it's creating an increase due to anxiety...it's still the new thing that's been introduced in your life that's concerning), well...he should be addressing that.

I would say, I forgot to mention in my last post that he is not a psychistrist but rather a general physician; the psychiatrist I'll be seeing is sure to be grrreeat! But the psychiatrist I saw last month - different from the on I'll be seeing - I walked out on. So bad. So bad.



the upshot here is i think, if at all possible, you should investigate other mental healthcare options. not because i think he's a drug addict...that kinda came out of left field for me, actually:confused:...but because i think he's not a very good doctor and it sounds like you lack the requisite trust in his expertise and feeling of working together to address your concerns.



Yeah. This is a small town with like 20 doctors and several pharmacies. One psychiatrist. I had been trying to get into some doctor's schedule until I can see the busy local psychiatrist, but things got complicated. When a physician (previous guy) nods along and listens well, agreeing that I do in fact have ADHD, then poo ppoohs the idea of adderall or dex, then prescribes me xanax, ativan and modafinil ($246 for a week's supply of madafinil alone; no generic), it's time to boogie.

Anyway I don't think the doctor was under the influence of drugs, but things took a sharp turn when I mentioned "non prescription" and he interrupted me and filled in the blanks and accused me of being very, very confused. The doctor did not try to find out what I had in mind with my new direction, or for how long (1-2 months), but listened to his own feelings as facts, and argued with me from there. I told Syndrox more about it - how the doctor then dismissed addiction as an issue on the whole (not just with pills he'd prescribed; see, jukies are just junkes - ask not where they come from!). He kept saying things that I thik wuld make an addiction specialist avert their eyes (I went through a phase of reading biographies and autobiographies of addicted celebrities and the people who treat them, trying to understand. No that doesn't make me an authority but it's worrisome, how he also managed to dismiss people who get addicted as -- you got it, a genetic glitch that probably isn't an issue for me - maybe because I'm well groomed and look white?).

There was just so much wrong in that appointment. And yeah, I took my blood pressure correctly - with my smart phone stop timer so that I wouldn't have to look at a clock and get messed up. I took it four times; on wellbutrin it's 96 rhr taken correctly. My heart pounds too and it gives me a headache, but I didn't complain! Well, it doesn't give this doctor those efects, so it didn't happen!

Gaaaahhhh! You're right peripatetic. This guy was in over his head and it shows. I need counseling not for my ADHD now as much as for feeling like I'm in the Twilight Zone.

Lunacie
12-04-10, 05:17 PM
My first thought was: GAH! What a meathead (the doctor, not you).

My second thought was: Could you write out a list of the side effects that are bothering you, with a note that says the benefit isn't compensating for the side effects?

My third thought was: the meathead probably wouldn't pay any more attention to the list than you telling him about the problem.

It's a shame there are doctors like this. It sounds like you've been taking the Wellbutrin long enough to know that it's not really helping, and that the dread and other issues seem to relate to when you began taking the meds.

Seems more logical at this point to try a different med rather than adding something to the Wellbutrin to deal with the side effects. Chances are you could then have more side effects from the Zanax and Ativan, and then he would want to add something else to deal with those. It's like a snowball rolling downhill and picking up speed.

Personally, I will not start that cocktail of meds business - if the problems of the first med outweigh the benefits of it, then it's time to try a different med.

Mignon
12-04-10, 05:40 PM
It's a shame there are doctors like this. It sounds like you've been taking the Wellbutrin long enough to know that it's not really helping, and that the dread and other issues seem to relate to when you began taking the meds.

Seems more logical at this point to try a different med rather than adding something to the Wellbutrin to deal with the side effects. Chances are you could then have more side effects from the Zanax and Ativan, and then he would want to add something else to deal with those. Sounds like a snowball rolling downhill and picking up speed.


Yeah. I'm so resigned right now that I didn't go back and correct my many typos last post. Take it or leave it people!

I've just been taking wellbutrin for a while, until a couple of days ago, and with a two week break in there somewhere. I feel better when I'm not on it. I can see how people would benefit, but depression isn't my complaint oddly. You'd think it would be, but I think I respond appropriately to situations depsite my mental shortcomings. I mean, that conversation was depressing, but I don't think I'm depressed as a state of being. I'm doing good with my business and I'm kicking behind at what I've always wanted to do.

I'm seeing the psychiatrist next month and I can hang on without rx medication until then. I was happy about the prospect of rx medication helping me, but now I'm not so sure I want to manage side effects.

Anyway, thanks for responding Lunacie. I make it confusing since I didn't point out that I am not actually taking all of those medications. Those rx notes are with my pharmacist (a nice lady who is my age! and sympathetic).

I did however fill the xanax rx because I *did* tell my dad and doctors that I would try the rx drugs prescribed in order to find what works. Well knowing nothing about ADHD, I think I still knew more than one doctor so far - I knew xanax was an atypical ADHD rx and that I don't experience or display anxiety in my body language or being. It finally dawned on me that it was maybe doctor #4's was of giving me the shove off. Even this last doctor thought it was odd that I got a rx for xanax, because "you don't seem anxious at all or like an anxious person" -- then flip flopped when he started dropping his awesome science knowledge bombs and then said "you seem anxious." Uh, appropriately so because you're being bafflingly unprofessional and keep contradicting yourself in your own diatribe. Then he intimated that I was depressed and oh nevermind.

On like no information, he accused me of doing the things he himself was guilty of -- jumping to conclusions and the greatest sin according to folks who think they alone have a corner on science: being irrational.

My therapy goals consist of not caring about or getting baited ito impromptu debates posed my way. And not having this guy or people like them in my head afterward. Ugh. I just want to finish things and go to shool and have some quality of life.

Thanks for letting me sound off. It's not that mature I know.

I'm sure he is somewhere shaking his head at the quality of science being taught in public schools. And at me, that dizzy dame of a patient who he couldn't talk any sense into.

Lunacie
12-04-10, 06:22 PM
Actually, being able to rant in a suitable way is very mature. Much better than just letting the bums pile it on us until we can't take anymore and we erupt.

I've heard stories of a lot of doctors wanting to treat for depression before trying meds for ADHD, and like you say it's generally worth it to give it a shot and elimiate that problem or confirm it. But to jump straight to anxiety is more unusual I think.

But I think having a doctor that doesn't listen to you and dismisses your concerns as being confused would make a non-anxious person somewhat anxious. Although, strangely, when a doctor accused me of being a drug seeker* I actually got very focused on reporting his *** to the medical review board at the state level.

*(he thought I only wanted pain meds for my migraine disorder when I was hoping for a preventative ~ he didn't really listen to me, he thought he knew what I was saying and that's what he heard - gah!)

mctavish23
12-04-10, 07:38 PM
When You get a chance, please check out the National Comorbidity Study and the

National Comorbidity Replication Study.

What you'll find is that ANXIETY is by far, the #1 comorbid condition among ADHD

adults.

Hope that helps some.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

Fortune
12-04-10, 08:37 PM
Actually, being able to rant in a suitable way is very mature. Much better than just letting the bums pile it on us until we can't take anymore and we erupt.

I've heard stories of a lot of doctors wanting to treat for depression before trying meds for ADHD, and like you say it's generally worth it to give it a shot and elimiate that problem or confirm it. But to jump straight to anxiety is more unusual I think.

But I think having a doctor that doesn't listen to you and dismisses your concerns as being confused would make a non-anxious person somewhat anxious. Although, strangely, when a doctor accused me of being a drug seeker* I actually got very focused on reporting his *** to the medical review board at the state level.

*(he thought I only wanted pain meds for my migraine disorder when I was hoping for a preventative ~ he didn't really listen to me, he thought he knew what I was saying and that's what he heard - gah!)

This isn't med-seeking behavior! If you need painkillers for your migraine, it's because migraines are super painful. And wanting relief from that is not looking for a cheap high.

Lunacie
12-04-10, 08:42 PM
This isn't med-seeking behavior! If you need painkillers for your migraine, it's because migraines are super painful. And wanting relief from that is not looking for a cheap high.

Yeah! That's just how shocked my daughter and I were. We sat in the parking lot just looking at each other for awhile, completely wordless. We were like, "Did he really just say all that?"

He also told me to consider whether God wanted me to have the pain for a reason. :confused:

Nope, I don't believe in that kind of divine presence.
Or in justifying his refusal to treat my condition with platitudes like that.

Fortune
12-04-10, 08:51 PM
I just wonder what he thinks painkillers should be prescribed for if not pain.

Mignon
12-04-10, 09:00 PM
When You get a chance, please check out the National Comorbidity Study and the

National Comorbidity Replication Study.

What you'll find is that ANXIETY is by far, the #1 comorbid condition among ADHD

adults.

Hope that helps some.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

Alright. That may be. In my case anxiety doesn't apply.

mctavish23
12-04-10, 09:35 PM
You mentioned Xanax and Ativan earlier.

My point was simply that if the doc's & rn's seemingly saw anxiety as the problem, as

those are anti-anxiety meds, then it doesn't necessarily rule out ADHD.

Also, if you look at Sandra Rief's excellent book, "How To Reach and Teach Children with

ADD/ADHD," you'll see in Section 1.1 Understanding ADHD (on page 9 or 10), a brief

synopsis on ADHD In Girls.

In summarizing the work of Patricia Quinn, Kathleen Nadeau and others, she points out

how girls tend to INTERNALIZE ADHD symptoms, by developing (comorbid) anxiety and

depression (as opposed to boys EXTERNALIZING theirs).

That was the point I was trying to make.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

Mignon
12-04-10, 09:37 PM
You mentioned Xanax and Ativan earlier.

My point was simply that if the doc's & rn's seemingly saw anxiety as the problem, as

those are anti-anxiety meds, then it doesn't necessarily rule out ADHD.

Also, if you look at Sandra Rief's excellent book, "How To Reach and Teach Children with

ADD/ADHD," you'll see in Section 1.1 Understanding ADHD (on page 9 or 10), a brief

synopsis on ADHD In Girls.

In summarizing the work of Patricia Quinn, Kathleen Nadeau and others, she points out

how girls tend to INTERNALIZE ADHD symptoms, by developing (comorbid) anxiety and

depression (as opposed to boys EXTERNALIZING theirs).

That was the point I was trying to make.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)


Fine, I don't have information enough to disagree, nor am I disagreeing. That's useful information. I do not have abnormal anxiety. I could elaborate but in the interest of not boring everyone - I wasn't sure if your reply was for the benefit of any reader here (I'm guessing it was; that's how I do things in my head here) or if it was addressing me.

Tommy Wilhelm
12-04-10, 09:56 PM
On the upside, the description you wrote of your visit was really funny. (I usually have to really pore over what I write if I want to sound coherent, let alone funny.)

mctavish23
12-04-10, 10:00 PM
Thank you for the feedback and I hope things improve.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

Antiks72
12-05-10, 12:30 PM
You should fire him and get another Pdoc. I wouldn't waste your time with this guys, there's far too many of them and they will make your life harder. Consider the fact that as a result of being put on lithium, it wacked me out so much I couldn't drive. When I did drive I cause a three car accident on the freeway. That's how serious these issues can be.