View Full Version : Breggin article-does it never end!


Dizfriz
12-18-10, 09:10 AM
A warning, hold your nose while reading this article by Peter Breggin.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-peter-breggin/the-new-child-abuse-psych_b_788900.html

I do not read the Huffington post generally but I thought it was creditable at least to some extent. After reading this article, I looked them up on wiki and they apparently have gotten a lot of criticism over this type of thing before. Wiki reports The Huffington Post has been criticized by several science bloggers, as well as online news sources, for including articles by supporters of complementary and alternative medicine and anti-vaccine activists and censoring rebuttals written by science bloggers before publishing.They now have posted a typical Breggin article. What shocks me more than that is that they did not allow comments and their "What is your reaction" section does not allow any negative responses. They also described him as "Reform Psychiatrist"

The article was as bad as most of Breggin's screeds. As to my thoughts, the forum rules do not allow me to express them.

This is why I think so many such as Robert, Barkley, myself and many others fight so hard to get accurate information on ADHD out there. This is the battle and it never seems to end. It can get frustrating when something like this happens.

You can be sure we will be seeing repercussions from this on the forum and other places.

Dizfriz

dsvlil1
12-18-10, 09:47 AM
Nup, too stinky for me to read to the end.
Thanks Dizfriz.

Amtram
12-18-10, 06:15 PM
You'll note, of course, that comments are closed for this article. . .

Fortune
12-18-10, 10:13 PM
My hate was cemented here:

Two principles are self-evident: First, convincing children that they have "something wrong" in their heads such as genetically crossed wires or biochemical imbalances is the surest way to rob them of self-esteem, personal responsibility, self-mastery and the hope of an unlimited future. Second, convincing children that they have a psychiatric diagnosis or treating them as if they have one and teaching them to rely on psychiatric drugs is a prescription for their becoming lifelong mental patients.

The fact that I wasn't diagnosed meant not ever knowing what my limits were, exceeding them, and suffering the consequences. Not being able to even attribute the consequences to what they were.

ginniebean
12-19-10, 02:08 AM
I've read breggin before and I'm going to save my gag reflex for something a little less predictable. Nothing we can do about this sort of thing, arianna huffington is pushing pseudo science and unfortunately there will be backlash but then there always has been.

Fortune
12-19-10, 03:35 AM
Well, being disgusted by his writing is part of my unlimited future, you know?

I'd never read it before.

cantakeitnemore
12-19-10, 04:49 AM
What if he's right ?
Or maybe he has adhd himself

Fortune
12-19-10, 05:09 AM
Right about what? I think there's science that refutes his claims with evidence.

Having ADHD wouldn't make his arguments more valid.

Scooter77
12-19-10, 07:06 AM
How can that rubbish be published? As a parent and person with ADHD/Aspergers I'm amazed and disgusted.
That *crap* is why people react so badly to childhood disorders.
What is wrong with our society?
ohhh that makes me mad....

βĩο₱Ħعℓĩᶏ
12-19-10, 07:34 AM
That is disconcerting... I wouldnt be so afraid and angry if I believed most people are critical and independent thinkers.

Abi
12-19-10, 03:49 PM
This is SO F++KING disgusting and I'm not in the best of moods so I'm not saying anything other than if I met the man face to face I would HURT him. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Dizfriz
12-19-10, 04:05 PM
What if he's right ?
Or maybe he has adhd himself

Breggin is well known as a shill for Scientology and his stuff has been repudiated many times.. He used to testify in court cases (this apparently was a good part of his income) but now he is usually no longer recognized as a expert witness by the courts.

Right now, any reputable news source to give his views space especially without allowing rebuttals from scientists, is simply being irresponsible.

Basically Breggin is full of it and has almost no credibility among knowledgeable people.

So not only is he not right, he is so far off the deep end that he is not even wrong. He seems to be marching to the beat of an absent drummer so to speak.

He is one of the problems we have to deal with while trying to get people to recognize ADHD for what is is, a legitimate disorder.

It was an interesting question, thanks for posting it.

Dizfriz

ginniebean
12-19-10, 04:17 PM
This stuff is all over the net, there are a number of people who use their credentials to prop up their opinions. They haven't actually ever worked with people who have adhd.

These people have worked hard and have orchestrated a campaign against ADHD, because it's something that many have trouble understanding.

The two camps are the scientologists who believe that all mental illness is caused by bad guys who were blown up in a volcano millions of years ago, who's spirits possess people and allyou really need to do is spend hundreds of thousands of dollars so they can get rid of them for you. There aim is not to just discredit ADHD they deny all mental illness.

These people will not identify themselves as scientologists and will pose as 'concerned parents', or even children who 'had' adhd and were 'forced' to take meds. Anytime adhd is brought up they will look for opportunities to write discriditing information in the comments section, their comments appeal to 'common sense' and write the symptoms (which everyone experiences at some time) in a way that minimizes or even distort them. They make reference to science but will only cherry pick or distort the findings of research. This is not simply a case of mis-information being spread this is an orchestrated propaganda campaign.


The other group that does pretty much the exact same thing, are a faction of libertarianism. These too are mental illness deniers mainly because mental illness inconveniences thier ideology. So if the fact doesn't fit, shave the facts regardless of how they get distorted in order to 'make' them fit.

The libertarians use certain buzzwords and very much care to cast any and every mental condition as a product of moral laxity. There is some irony here as libertarianism is amoral to begin with. At the same time they make use of rhetorical devices that they hope will invoke an opposite polarity in the minds of those they care to preach at. For instance, they use words like, liberty, personal responsibility, moral, and several others along these lines.


The use of such devices is dishonest and calculated for effect. It gives them a handy method to obfuscate the conversation and in many cases control it. If you're doing something for the same of freedom, then clearly this should not be argued against? The dichotomy of personal responsibility and being an irresponsible leech or slacker sets up a false argument that obscures the real issues. Again, the same thing with using moral arguments as even they could not discuss any common social values without coming into conflict with their ideology.

These two groups have put out countless websites with inaccurate information and do look for opportunities whether it be an article or a discussion forum to promote their propaganda.


There is a third group but it's not so much any ideology except making money. The snake oilers want to see a product, and there's billions to be made in alternative medicine. The tried and true formula is to create suspicion in the minds of the target consumer group over the medication and the expertise of physicians whom they will categorize in fairly negative ways.

crackerbelly
12-19-10, 05:10 PM
Actually I am a regular user of Huffingtonpost but this just put them in the suspicious column for me. It bothered me so much that I just tweeted the following:

Why are comments closed @huffingtonpost ? Nothing about 'how' or 'why' to close comments in FAQ. Censorship? http://huff.to/e1Mzfd #fail

Believe me, they monitor this twitter alias. Feel free to re-tweet me (@markshea) or roll your own. :D

hopehope
12-22-10, 09:06 PM
I read berginn people who talk like that just don't understand add.Your right when you say disability doesn't make us inferrer really add is a medical condition we lack a chemical in the brain doesn't mean were inferior or mentally changled.It reminds me of the thread about the 30percent rule where it say children an adult with add have the mentally of being 2years behind in age that is a crock to

Dizfriz
12-23-10, 09:30 AM
It reminds me of the thread about the 30percent rule where it say children an adult with add have the mentally of being 2years behind in age that is a crock to

Mild curiosity, could you point me to anyplace in that thread that says this? You can believe whatever you wish, I just don't want others, especially guests, reading this thread to believe that.

Dizfriz

Amtram
12-23-10, 10:40 AM
Actually I am a regular user of Huffingtonpost but this just put them in the suspicious column for me. It bothered me so much that I just tweeted the following:


HuffPo has been on my quack radar for a while. It's too bad, because there's some pretty interesting stuff there, even some good information. However, the blogging staff is full of woo-meisters, so you have to hone your critical thinking skills before you read it.

Lunacie
12-23-10, 10:56 AM
I read berginn people who talk like that just don't understand add.Your right when you say disability doesn't make us inferrer really add is a medical condition we lack a chemical in the brain doesn't mean were inferior or mentally changled.It reminds me of the thread about the 30percent rule where it say children an adult with add have the mentally of being 2years behind in age that is a crock to

I think you may need to reread the article on The 30% Rule (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=641396&postcount=18). It says there is often a delay in certain areas of development including self-regulation and emotional reactions. It doesn't say anything about being mentally delayed.

ADHD is one of the "spectrum disorders." Some kids with ADHD will be a genius, some will be mentally delayed, most somewhere between the two ends of the spectrum as far as intelligence goes.

Imnapl
12-23-10, 11:12 AM
30% rule refers to developmental delay.

Developmental delay: a delay in acquiring of abilities and skills typically reached by children of similar ages.

Delay doesn't mean that the child doesn't develop skills. It means that it takes some children longer to develop the skills. This is why adults may have difficulty getting diagnosed with ADHD - they've caught up with their peers in many ways.

This could also explain why some adults are diagnosed with inattentive ADD instead of combined - they grew out of the hyperactivity or it doesn't look the same in a mature adult as it does in a child.

crackerbelly
12-23-10, 01:04 PM
HuffPo has been on my quack radar for a while. It's too bad, because there's some pretty interesting stuff there, even some good information. However, the blogging staff is full of woo-meisters, so you have to hone your critical thinking skills before you read it.

Yep, I agree 100% and knew that right along but I thought that because they had a fairly healthy comment structure with 'rank and reputation' that the woo-factor could be neutralized to some extent. Now I find out that they turn off comments when it suits them.....grrrrrrrr......booooooo.....

mctavish23
12-23-10, 02:36 PM
Keep in mind that he has to do something to try and remain in the spotlight.

Otherwise, he's just yesterday's douchebag; like Vanilla Ice, only with an MD.

When you believe in and/or are "unofficially" affiliated with a "church" that was

founded by a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic, with an alien land strip outside

it's International Headquarters, it's hard to maintain both credibility and your

membership in the American Medical Association or Amercian Psychiatric Association;

both of whom have long acknowledged the existence and validity of ADHD.


Word.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

Illiterati
12-23-10, 03:00 PM
As for the founder of the CoS, there are a couple of apocryphal stories about how it started. Both involve noted science fiction authors telling LRH that he wasn't smart enough to found his own religion.

I hadn't heard of this twit before, but I googled him using "breggin scientology" and found several pages worth of links discussing his connection with it, including in a book he wrote on 1980 and a "Prozac Survivors Group" with which he was involved.

I've always taken the Huffington Post with a very large grain of salt.

hopehope
12-24-10, 12:23 AM
well maybe you should read or write again it say not to let your 16 old drive a car because there add there really 11years old. it like i said before your puting a label on the children and adults your not a doctor and you don;t write books so your 30 percent rule is your opinion and every one has one

Fortune
12-24-10, 12:54 AM
30% rule has been discussed extensively by doctors and researchers.

βĩο₱Ħعℓĩᶏ
12-24-10, 01:04 AM
well maybe you should read or write again it say not to let your 16 old drive a car because there add there really 11years old. it like i said before your puting a label on the children and adults your not a doctor and you don;t write books so your 30 percent rule is your opinion and every one has one


Blindly following a number is a bit misguided; I don't think anyone is suggesting to dogmatically use it. For it to serve as a "starting point" for evaluation is a better use.

Fortune
12-24-10, 01:05 AM
Blindly following a number is a bit misguided; I don't think anyone is suggesting to dogmatically use it. For it to serve as a "starting point" for evaluation is a better use.

Yes, this.

Other guidelines include three years delay.

anonymouslyadd
12-24-10, 01:09 AM
I just don't like the term drugging!!!!!!!! There are many critics out there of ADD and it's diagnosis. I've posted on this before. I even had a cardiologist basically tell me that it wasn't ADD that was my problem. He was basically like I needed to find a way to get the "Zen" back into my life. This was a Doctor of Osteopathy!!!!!!

Besides, who was he to comment on whether ADD existing. Well, maybe it was because he was checking my heart to see if it could handle the stimulant.

This breggin idiot might want to take a trip back to medical school or just view some of the copious amounts of literature on the "science" behind ADD.

What a shame!

βĩο₱Ħعℓĩᶏ
12-24-10, 01:35 AM
I just don't like the term drugging!!!!!!!! There are many critics out there of ADD and it's diagnosis. I've posted on this before. I even had a cardiologist basically tell me that it wasn't ADD that was my problem. He was basically like I needed to find a way to get the "Zen" back into my life. This was a Doctor of Osteopathy!!!!!!

Besides, who was he to comment on whether ADD existing. Well, maybe it was because he was checking my heart to see if it could handle the stimulant.

This breggin idiot might want to take a trip back to medical school or just view some of the copious amounts of literature on the "science" behind ADD.

What a shame!

DO's tend to be like that, even though they go through a residency and are better esteemed by Md's than chiropractors are. He may have been a bit wack, but the fruity "zen" thing, finding center and having balance, is essential to mental health. I don't like the term drugging either, it holds a particularly bitter flavor in my mouth. I find meds are enabling me to live a fuller more enjoyable life. In context to a tool I can use to genuinely improve my life, using a pejorative like "drugging" passes moral judgment relegating me below others who are not "jaded." So, someone suggesting "zen" as an answer, often has been greeted with disdain and contempt for lack of their understanding and for my perception of them passing judgment without understanding. There are many things that "zen" won't cure, many things that "just do it" won't cure either.

Lunacie
12-24-10, 10:40 AM
well maybe you should read or write again it say not to let your 16 old drive a car because there add there really 11years old. it like i said before your puting a label on the children and adults your not a doctor and you don;t write books so your 30 percent rule is your opinion and every one has one

But that's not a caution because the 16 year old is "mentally" only 11 years old. It's more to do with the level of maturity.

My granddaughter is in middle school and yes, we've thought about what she'll be like when she's old enough to take Driver's Education. That is absolutly something I want her to do before she gets behind the wheel of a car. As long as she's still taking meds and trying to curb her impulsivity and focus on traffic, I'll be happy to ride in the car with her.

Those of us who have referenced The 30% Rule are not talking about our opinions. We're talking about research done by a respected member of the medical profession. My "opinion" is that Dr. Barkley knows what he's talking about. You may not share that opinion, but I hope you won't throw his research away willy-nilly without first considering it.

Dizfriz
12-24-10, 12:56 PM
well maybe you should read or write again it say not to let your 16 old drive a car because there add there really 11years old. it like i said before your puting a label on the children and adults your not a doctor and you don;t write books so your 30 percent rule is your opinion and every one has one
OK let me try to explain this. It is not "my" rule. The 30% rule was developed by Russell Barkley who is one of if not the top person in the field of ADHD. What I wrote in the article was my version that I used explain the rule to parents. The concept and most of the examples were taken from Barkley workshops, books and my experience.

So you can see that it does not matter what my credentials are, it is Barkley you have to argue with if you disagree with the 30% rule.

If you are going to disagree however, you need to be arguing with what was actually proposed and not something you misunderstood.

I am going to do something that I rarely do and that is quote a section from the workshop. I do not think Barkley would mind in this case. The big thing is that you do not have to agree with Barkley but if you are going to understand ADHD you need to know accurately what he is saying about the disorder and its effects.

Barkley on the 30% rule


We tend to see as kids grow up a developmental curve. The development of inhibition and self- regulation that goes with it tends to show this kind of curve. So hereís what we see in normal kids. Youíd see a curve somewhat similar to that in AD/HD kids, and notice at any age you study them, AD/HD kids are behind. Thatís evidence that AD/HD is a developmental disability. Just as retardation would show that curve, just as learning disabilities all show these curves. They are developmental lags, but lag does not mean catching up. It means a chronic developmental lag in the development of that trait, so that at any age you study them they are not where they should be, but they are better than where they were before. So that AD/HD kids do get more inhibition, do get more self-control, do get more ability to manage themselves. But, itís never what it should be because other kids are improving, too. Itís like two cars going down a highway. Oneís going 80, thatís the normal kid; another oneís going 50, thatís the kid with AD/HD. Whatís going to happen? Theyíre both going to get there, but the gap between them is going to get wider and wider and wider. Thatís what you tend to see.

So how much is this gap? We can measure it. Itís roughly 30-40 percent. AD/HD therefore is producing about a 30 percent lag in the development of self-control and inhibition. Now we can take that to the bank. As teachers, as parents, as clinicians we can use that. How can we use that? Because it tells you what your expectations have a right to be and no more. It tells you what you can expect this child to do and no more.

For instance, you have a 12- or 13-year-old girl with AD/HD whoís just taken the Red Cross babysitting

class at the YWCA and wants to babysit. She wants extra summer money. You have a neighbor with a three-month-old. They know that your daughter has her certificate for babysitting. They want her to babysit. Do you do this? No. Why? Reduce her age by 30 percent. That is where she is functioning in terms of self-control, emotional control, her inhibition. You do not let children with emotional control of an eight-year-old babysit a three-month-old child unattended. That is irresponsible.

Do you see what this curve lets you do? Subtract 30 percent from their age and ask the question again. Age 16, what do you let people do in this state? [Drive.] All right, subtract 30 percent from their age. You just gave an 11-year-old an automobile. And you said be nice, follow the rules, pay attention, show self-control, and organize your driving. What would you expect to see if you gave 11-year-olds cars? Well I can tell you, we have now finished our fifth study of AD/HD; there are also two others in the literature for a total of seven. They all show the same thing. AD/HD is the worst disorder you can have when it comes to driving. The worst drivers on the road are AD/HD teenagers. And add Conduct Disorder to that and you magnify it even more. So as you will see in a little bit, the risks are as follows. They have four times the auto accidents, three and a half times the speeding tickets, two and a half times the dollar damage.

So what does it mean? It means that you do not let 16-year-old teenagers with AD/HD drive independently. That is what it means. It means that you will keep them under a learnerís permit longer. You will do a staggered licensing program. What the state of Michigan is doing for all teenagers, you will do for these kids. But you will monitor their driving far more closely than you would do with another teenager. This kid could kill somebody, including themselves. So do you see what this curve is telling you? They are not ready to be doing things at the age that other people are doing them, and knowing that, canít you then use that information? Of course you can.

You have one of the few 18-year-old teens with AD/HD that wants to go to college, because very few of them will ever go to college, right? Youíve got one who does. Youíre sending a 12-year-old to college. If that were true, what adjustments, what accommodations would need to be in place in a university environment for any 12-year-old to succeed in that environment? Would you send them to UCLA? With class sizes that run several thousand in the introductory freshman classes? Absolutely not. Very small college, very small classes, with a learning disabilities program and accommodations, so that you would be tailoring that environment to that individual with a smaller course load, hand-picked professors, a lot of assistance, curriculum, video tapes, study groups, other people there to assist them through the LD resource program, and twelve to fourteen kids in a class. Youíre going to look for a very tiny liberal arts college that does a lot of LD accommodations, and then maybe this kid will get a college degree. You drop this kid into a state university, he will not finish that first semester.

Our research is informative, because it tells you what adjustments you need to make given the developmental lag that youíre dealing with. What I hear is, ďHe should be normal. He should be doing what those other kids are doing,Ē which of course is ridiculous. Thatís like expecting a retarded child to act normal. http://www.greatschools.org/pdfs/2200_7-barktran.pdf?date=4-12-05
The discussion of the 30% rule begins on page 16.


Hopehope, I am not trying to get you to agree with the 30% rule but simply to help understand what it says and what it means. Your interpretation of the 30% rule is simply wrong. This is not a criticism but a statement of fact. This is a support forum and I feel that the information that we deal with here needs to be accurate. Agreement is not a requirement but accurate knowledge is highly suggested.

Yours,

Dizfriz

Note to moderator: I asked Hopehope to let me take this to a separate thread but was turned down.

crackerbelly
12-24-10, 01:29 PM
I just don't like the term drugging!!!!!!!!

I think that is merely a rhetorical device that people (naysayers) use to frame the topic in the way they want. I wonder why we don't hear the same kinds of words used in relation to analgesics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analgesic) or antibiotics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic)? hmmmmmm.......

mctavish23
12-24-10, 04:24 PM
Lat summer, I bought a copy of FORTUNE magazine's Summer Investment Special Issue

(or something close to that).

The point is that it was an investment magazine.

The back cover was an ad from an insurance company (All State I think), that contained

the data on teens & driving.

It had a picture of the brain, with a car shaped imprint of a hole.

What it said was something along the lines of "Why Do 16 year olds drive like they have

a hole in their heads? It's because they do."

It then presented the recent data on "normal" brain development, indicating that the

human brain continues to grow until approx. age(s) 24-25 yo.

NOW.... Take the developmental delays associated with ADHD's structural, size & volume

differences,and the 30% Rule suddenly becomes clearer.

Meanwhile, the impairments associated with GREATER DRIVING RISKS than other (non-

ADHD) teens (or adults), also become easier to understand.

As usual, Dizfriz is right about the origin of those data.

In closing, I can't be positive it was All State, but I KNOW it wasn't GEICO.

As an esteemed post grad graduate of the prestigious "GEICO THERAPEUTIC INSTITUTE

(For Retired Drill Sargeants Making Terrible Therapists)," let me just offer Dr Breggin a

tissue for being a jackwagon.

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year

Here's Hoping You All Win A Major Award Marked "FRAGILE," and please don't shoot

your eyes out!!

tc

Robert

hopehope
12-24-10, 04:44 PM
Oh my god I can't believe you read that stuff talk about stereotype.I Was driving at 16years old taking my mother to portsmouth navy hospital for radiation treatment I was also babysitting for extra money and did very well.I don't agree with the 30 percent rule I went my whole life without meds for my add and now at 50 Im on meds now only because I couldn;t remember thing I guess as you get older it gets worse.But other then that you shouldn;t tell parents that. I mature.Just fine and probably more then a non add kid SO did my sister and my son and there children Idon't always believe everything I read.I feel it is a medical problem lack of chemical in the brain and once corrected with meds a child or adult can stand strong with any non add child or adult I won't bring this up again but i will say all answer aren;t always found in a book and each and everyone us is separate individual And shouldn't be judged base on a book whether your add or not so with all that said I would like to wish everyone MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEWYEAR.

Fortune
12-24-10, 05:03 PM
hopehope,

A statistically significant increase in risk does not mean that everyone who is ADHD who drives at 16 will get into an accident or be an unsafe driver. It means that there's a greater chance of it.

βĩο₱Ħعℓĩᶏ
12-24-10, 05:25 PM
Oh my god I can't believe you read that stuff talk about stereotype.I Was driving at 16years old taking my mother to portsmouth navy hospital for radiation treatment I was also babysitting for extra money and did very well.I don't agree with the 30 percent rule I went my whole life without meds for my add and now at 50 Im on meds now only because I couldn;t remember thing I guess as you get older it gets worse.But other then that you shouldn;t tell parents that. I mature.Just fine and probably more then a non add kid SO did my sister and my son and there children Idon't always believe everything I read.I feel it is a medical problem lack of chemical in the brain and once corrected with meds a child or adult can stand strong with any non add child or adult I won't bring this up again but i will say all answer aren;t always found in a book and each and everyone us is separate individual And shouldn't be judged base on a book whether your add or not so with all that said I would like to wish everyone MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEWYEAR.



Those are easy things to talk about, concrete, tangible. So, it's easy to be dissmissive cuz obviously there is evidence supporting 30% is wrong. However, it doesnt just refer to those situations--there are multiple invisible forces going on at any given time and when they converge at once: a perfect storm. How much stress and pressure one can take before crashing, and what does that crash look like?

As much as I want to say I am a responsible tough cookie, I am well aware that my crashes look appropriate for a person much younger than I am.

Lunacie
12-24-10, 05:26 PM
Oh my god I can't believe you read that stuff talk about stereotype. I Was driving at 16 years old taking my mother to portsmouth navy hospital for radiation treatment I was also babysitting for extra money and did very well.

I don't agree with the 30 percent rule I went my whole life without meds for my add and now at 50 Im on meds now only because I couldn;t remember thing I guess as you get older it gets worse.

But other then that you shouldn;t tell parents that. I mature. Just fine and probably more then a non add kid SO did my sister and my son and there children I don't always believe everything I read.

I feel it is a medical problem lack of chemical in the brain and once corrected with meds a child or adult can stand strong with any non add child or adult I won't bring this up again but i will say all answer aren;t always found in a book and each and everyone us is separate individual And shouldn't be judged base on a book whether your add or not

so with all that said I would like to wish everyone MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEWYEAR.

A lot of us older folks have gone our whole lives without being medicated - because we weren't diagnosed. Very few were diagnosed in the 50's and 60's. Some managed pretty well if they had good support and understanding from parents and teachers, or if their symptoms were not very severe.

Some dropped out of school or got into trouble with the law, either because they lacked that support and understanding or because their symptoms were more severe.

Most of us here take the time to read a LOT and verify research. WE don't believe everything we read either. I do believe kids with disorders like ADHD and Autism are behind their peers in several areas of development (social skills, fine motor skills, gross motor skills, self-regulation) but NOT in terms of intelligence.

My grandkids are both very smart, thank you, and both have very good manners. But their handwriting is atrocious, they have more trouble making and keeping friends than non-disordered kids do, and even with meds they have trouble doing the things they know they should do and, sometimes, not doing the things they know they shouldn't.

As far as getting older, I've never been able to remember things (severe ADHD in my case) and with menopause I thought I'd lost my marbles completely. That's when I started taking the supplements and saved my sanity.

ginniebean
12-24-10, 05:27 PM
It doesn't bother me that ******s like Breggin write this crap, what bothers me is that well known publications are willing to print it. It's absolutely disgusting.

ginniebean
12-24-10, 05:39 PM
Oh my god I can't believe you read that stuff talk about stereotype.I Was driving at 16years old taking my mother to portsmouth navy hospital for radiation treatment I was also babysitting for extra money and did very well.I don't agree with the 30 percent rule I went my whole life without meds for my add and now at 50 Im on meds now only because I couldn;t remember thing I guess as you get older it gets worse.But other then that you shouldn;t tell parents that. I mature.Just fine and probably more then a non add kid SO did my sister and my son and there children Idon't always believe everything I read.I feel it is a medical problem lack of chemical in the brain and once corrected with meds a child or adult can stand strong with any non add child or adult I won't bring this up again but i will say all answer aren;t always found in a book and each and everyone us is separate individual And shouldn't be judged base on a book whether your add or not so with all that said I would like to wish everyone MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEWYEAR.


If you weren't impaired as a child then you don't have ADHD. Simple as that. ADHD is not an input disorder, meaning no problem with info going in, it has nothing to do with intelligence as intelligence is largely input. It's an output disorder.

If you think accurate symptoms of adhd are a matter of judgement then it's you doing the judging. I was diagnosed in the 60's, got no help, and you know what? My life did not have to be so hard. When it comes to adhd, very little of it can be understood with 'common sense' and this is why I completely disagree with you about research. (getting information from a book)


It is absolutely possible to generalize about adhd, as it is classified by a set of symptoms. It's not just about not remembering stuff and quite possibly if that's your only symptom then clearly it's not adhd.


Do you see any irony in telling people not to judge while you tell them just how credulous they are and how high functioning you were (naturally this means everybody had the same circumstances)


The 30% rule is the lower end of the scale, it's actually 30-40%. It's verified with research. Now it's perfectly possible that some have only a 10-20% delay while others go much higher in terms of delay but without the delay no adhd. It's the very basis of all of the symptoms.

hopehope
12-24-10, 08:54 PM
It good thing your not a doctor because your wrong and totally missed the point I never said I didn't have problems sure I did have problems who doesn'tIm just saying I learned to live with it I new I Was different I just didn't know why.when you say high functioning whether add or not you still go on with life deal with what you have and live the best you can.You make it sound like your add made you stop living loving and do the best that your capable of.Were add not dead jenniebean you don;t know me so don't diagnose me.Iam add adderall the best thing that ever happen to me ya life would have been alot easier if Iwas on meds but I still lived loved and drove at 16 years old how old were you 11

Fortune
12-24-10, 09:24 PM
It good thing your not a doctor because your wrong and totally missed the point I never said I didn't have problems sure I did have problems who doesn'tIm just saying I learned to live with it I new I Was different I just didn't know why.when you say high functioning whether add or not you still go on with life deal with what you have and live the best you can.You make it sound like your add made you stop living loving and do the best that your capable of.Were add not dead jenniebean you don;t know me so don't diagnose me.Iam add adderall the best thing that ever happen to me ya life would have been alot easier if Iwas on meds but I still lived loved and drove at 16 years old how old were you 11

You don't know Ginniebean. She didn't say she couldn't deal with life or that we're dead because we have ADHD. She said that if you don't have any impairments as a teenager, you didn't have ADHD.

I pointed out that an increased likelihood of accidents is not a guarantee of accidents. Instead of protesting that it's wrong because you never got in an accident, be thankful nothing bad happened. The research is very clear as to what ADHD means for driving.

Princess Moon
12-24-10, 11:49 PM
The 30 percent rule is very accurate. People with ADD act a lot younger than their age. At 22 turning 23 in a month, I am more like a 15 year old. Now, the delay may not start out at 30%, but it is definetely true. Most peopel you meet with ADD/ADHD act about 30% youngerr than their age. There is a definite gap in cognitive abilities and emotional maturity. It is very real.

hopehope
12-25-10, 12:08 AM
Im sorry it just that I have spend my whole life feeling like know one understood me or except me for who I was I was always consider the bad child and reallydidn'think I was but they did it hurts me to see children go Thur this so Iam very sensitive to being labeled doctors said my son was add at 5years old had on ritalin but after 3years on the ritalin he had ritalin depression so they put on antidepressant.and now 29 and still screw up but getting ready to start adderall.the real things is Iam glad that Iam add because I lost my daughter in 2006 her life was taken I don't know if I could have gotten thur all that if I were on meds because here it is 3years later Iam on meds And now I don't have all these thoughts running thur my head now it one at a time so now I think about my daughter more clearly and I think about what happen what was going thur her mind when she was laying there I disect everything now so ya adderall has help me a whole lot but at the same time it hurts differently and i think to much now I think maybe at that time in my life it was better to be in the fog in mind so adderall can be a blessing but at the same be a curse.Iam sorry for being arugmentive with everyone on this forum

Lunacie
12-25-10, 12:17 AM
It good thing your not a doctor because your wrong and totally missed the point I never said I didn't have problems sure I did have problems who doesn't

Im just saying I learned to live with it I new I Was different I just didn't know why.

when you say high functioning whether add or not you still go on with life deal with what you have and live the best you can. You make it sound like your add made you stop living loving and do the best that your capable of. Were add not dead

jenniebean you don;t know me so don't diagnose me. Iam add adderall the best thing that ever happen to me ya life would have been a lot easier if I was on meds but I still lived loved and drove at 16 years old how old were you 11

Your posts are very difficult to read. Please add some paragraph breaks. Some of us find it almost impossible to read a block of text post like you post.

I can't speak for Ginniebean, but even though I learned to drive at 14 in driver's ed in school, I didn't go get my license until I was 18. I dated when I was in high school, but I didn't get married until I was 22 and that was probably too soon but I was naive and I got pregnant. If you could ask my mother, I think she'd tell you that I acted younger than my actual age a lot of the time.

I lived, and loved, and got on with my life, but when I graduated from high school it was like turning a 12 year old loose with a driver's license and expecting her to hold down a job. It was very hard. I lived at home for 3 more years. My dad bought me my first car. I probably could not have managed car payments and rent on my own at that age.

If it wasn't that hard for you, I'm happy for you. But don't assume IF you managed pretty well that it totally invalidates the thousands and thousands of ADHD kids that Dr. Barkley has studied to come up with the theory of The 30% Rule. Kids who are just like I was, like Ginniebean was, like Fortune was, like everyone else who says "I totally get it" when they read The 30% Rule.

Tabbycat
12-25-10, 12:31 AM
I'm just trusting that Breggin isn't performing any surgeries of any kind, or advising people on heart disease, diabetes, Alzheimer's - way too scary to think about.

My take is that the man is extremely insecure and needs lots of attention. Sort of like a child in some ways....

mctavish23
12-25-10, 12:36 AM
More like a repressed proctologist actually.

Me thinks he's been watching his fair share of Lil Rascal movies too...hmmm

Merry Christmas

tc

Robert

Imnapl
12-25-10, 03:10 AM
Keep in mind that he has to do something to try and remain in the spotlight.

Otherwise, he's just yesterday's douchebag;. . . or a tool without a tool belt?

ginniebean
12-26-10, 09:23 PM
It good thing your not a doctor because your wrong and totally missed the point I never said I didn't have problems sure I did have problems who doesn'tIm just saying I learned to live with it


Yes, you're right, we do go on living and learn to 'live with it'. But let's take a look at just what we learn to live with. Learn to live with having others express disappointment in us? Learn to live with constantly feeling like we aren't doing enough and blaming ourselves for it. Having no option but to agree that we're lazy, stupid, or uncaring?

I did learn to live with that and even thru all that self hate I married, had children, raised them, divorced after 17 yrs, was a single mom, and am now just a single woman with adhd struggling and surviving as best I can, but now I have a whole lot of extra tools and bunches more understanding (at least from myself)


Accepting some of these ADHD symptoms is not easy, understanding them is often even more difficult but I guess what I objected to, especially from our age group is the minimizing of just how impacting this has been on our lives. I mean, we lived those lives, and it's all we ever had but to not acknowledge just how hard we had to work to do what many consider a fairly poor job does us no service at all.

I struggled against my adhd my whole life, I am not someone who lays down and takes what life gives. I've been at war against myself and adhd as long as I've been alive. I just didn't know or understand my opponent. I was determined to 'fix' myself, and in the doing, I did damage to myself.


I actually do understand what you're saying, but if you really think about it, maybe you'll see that you're more afraid of giving yourself an unnecessary break to the point you won't give yourself any break and along with it no congratulation for how damned wonderful you did given what you were up against.


Well, at least here you're among your own, you don't need to give long explanations, or come up with a reason that will satisfy someone that can't be satisfied, we do understand, and so.. glad to meet ya!


It's ok to disagree, just keep open the option that there's crap loads more to learn about adhd, as it's so far from a simple problem that I know I have to be open to learning all the time too. :)




I new I Was different I just didn't know why.when you say high functioning whether add or not you still go on with life deal with what you have and live the best you can.You make it sound like your add made you stop living loving and do the best that your capable of.Were add not dead jenniebean you don;t know me so don't diagnose me.Iam add adderall the best thing that ever happen to me ya life would have been alot easier if Iwas on meds but I still lived loved and drove at 16 years old how old were you 11[/quote]

crackerbelly
12-27-10, 05:46 PM
There is a fair amount of conversation in this thread and others about how people can be so misinformed and recalcitrant about certain topics in the face of convincing data to the contrary. I just stumbled across a blogger/journalist, who many of you may already know but he is new to me, Ben Goldacre. Mr. Goldacre is a columnist for the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/series/badscience) in the UK. He also maintains a blog, Bad Science (http://www.badscience.net/) and has just published a new book, Bad Science: Quacks, Hacks, and Big Pharma Flacks. (http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Science-Quacks-Pharma-Flacks/dp/0865479186/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_a)

He has an amusing and effective way of explaining misinformation. His stuff appears to be worthy of a second look and that being the case, thought others might like to know about him too, so I pass it along fyi.

mimi'sdreaming
12-29-10, 11:06 AM
I know it's been said many times before, but I think it needs to be repeated: "If you've seen one person with ADHD, you've seen one person with ADHD". Everyone is different!

My son is definitely a product of the 30% rule, whereas another boy in his class with ADHD is not. His maturity and interests are right in line with all the other boys in first grade. I suspect that his case isn't as complicated, and he's able to be treated with meds that help his maturity level.

Lastly, everyone handles things differently. Some are able to cope better and overcome obstacles, others aren't so lucky.

Just my two cents! :)

ginniebean
12-29-10, 03:34 PM
This is true to an extent, but there are specific symptoms that must fit the criteria for adhd or it's not adhd. Of course there are going to be different levels of severity and even a good deal of variation in being able to manage within the same level of severity.

The thing that does not change from person to person with adhd is the delay in development, it's there in all of us and without it there is no adhd.

This actually is an important point because there really are people who get diagnosed with adhd but actually have something else. Many things can mimic adhd and when that gets addressed the symptoms go away. Sometimes the actual cause never gets addressed because the diagnosis confirms for the symptoms so no need to continue looking.

If I met someone who had the symptoms and no developmental delay I'd strongly suggest questioning the diagnosis.

Imnapl
12-29-10, 04:35 PM
This is true to an extent, but there are specific symptoms that must fit the criteria for adhd or it's not adhd. Of course there are going to be different levels of severity and even a good deal of variation in being able to manage within the same level of severity.

The thing that does not change from person to person with adhd is the delay in development, it's there in all of us and without it there is no adhd.Good point. My son's cognitive ability is above average and he didn't have any problems socially in school - teachers always reported that he was a happy, well-adjusted child, but he took forever to be able to print words legibly. He could tie his shoelaces at age 3, but could only draw a very primitive blob as his "self-portrait" in kindergarten - a serious enough delay that the teacher brought it up at the interview. My son was very hyperactive and his teachers strongly encouraged all of his after school sports activities. His fine motor skills improved in time, but he is still hyperactive, even on medication.

mimi'sdreaming
12-29-10, 04:52 PM
This is true to an extent, but there are specific symptoms that must fit the criteria for adhd or it's not adhd. Of course there are going to be different levels of severity and even a good deal of variation in being able to manage within the same level of severity.

The thing that does not change from person to person with adhd is the delay in development, it's there in all of us and without it there is no adhd.

This actually is an important point because there really are people who get diagnosed with adhd but actually have something else. Many things can mimic adhd and when that gets addressed the symptoms go away. Sometimes the actual cause never gets addressed because the diagnosis confirms for the symptoms so no need to continue looking.

If I met someone who had the symptoms and no developmental delay I'd strongly suggest questioning the diagnosis.

I think you're missing my point. I was only trying to point out to hopehope that not everyone with ADHD is the same. Something that he was able to overcome in his youth, might not come so easily to another person.

I was also speaking strictly to the 30% rule as far as maturity goes. There are indeed plenty of children diagnosed correctly that do not have the immaturity factor; my nephew is one. It's been stated on here (and by Russell Barkley himself) that medication can help bridge that gap. That was the point I was trying to make with the other boy in my son's class. His mother forgot his meds one day and he was a totally different child, jumping up on the tables and pretending to be a buffalo. The teacher didn't even know he was on medication until this incident. On any other day, he has no social issues and is on the same maturity level as his peers.

mimi'sdreaming
12-29-10, 04:57 PM
Good point. My son's cognitive ability is above average and he didn't have any problems socially in school - teachers always reported that he was a happy, well-adjusted child, but he took forever to be able to print words legibly. He could tie his shoelaces at age 3, but could only draw a very primitive blob as his "self-portrait" in kindergarten - a serious enough delay that the teacher brought it up at the interview. My son was very hyperactive and his teachers strongly encouraged all of his after school sports activities. His fine motor skills improved in time, but he is still hyperactive, even on medication.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Your son does have ADHD, but not the social issues.

Imnapl
12-29-10, 05:32 PM
This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Your son does have ADHD, but not the social issues.I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. When I said that he didn't have any problems socially at school, I meant that he got along with classmates and was well liked by staff. My son was not a discipline problem. He was typical of people with ADHD in that he wore his heart on his sleeve which left him vulnerable in some situations. Neither of my children were as wordly as other kids their own age - perhaps because of the 30% rule?

Lunacie
12-29-10, 05:49 PM
I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. When I said that he didn't have any problems socially at school, I meant that he got along with classmates and was well liked by staff. My son was not a discipline problem. He was typical of people with ADHD in that he wore his heart on his sleeve which left him vulnerable in some situations. Neither of my children were as wordly as other kids their own age - perhaps because of the 30% rule?

My granddaughter has always been well liked by teachers and other staff, but she's been picked on, teased and even bullied. Did any of that happen to your son?

Some kids (and some adults) do seem to have a radar that senses the most vulnerable kids and they go for the kill, to make themselves feel more powerful or whatever the reason. ADHD kids, as you say, seem to be wearing a target, probably because they're at least 30% delayed in some ways.

Imnapl
12-29-10, 06:18 PM
My granddaughter has always been well liked by teachers and other staff, but she's been picked on, teased and even bullied. Did any of that happen to your son?

Some kids (and some adults) do seem to have a radar that senses the most vulnerable kids and they go for the kill, to make themselves feel more powerful or whatever the reason. ADHD kids, as you say, seem to be wearing a target, probably because they're at least 30% delayed in some ways.He was fortunate in that he had great teachers who dealt quickly with any bullying, but there was one coach (outside of school) who made life difficult for a time.

Lunacie
12-29-10, 07:06 PM
He was fortunate in that he had great teachers who dealt quickly with any bullying, but there was one coach (outside of school) who made life difficult for a time.

Yes, I'd say that was fortunate in the school environment. Kids expect to be somewhat different than adults (teachers and such), but when they realize they are different than their peers, and when their peers notice that and target such a child it can be very damaging.

However, teachers may deal easily with a child who has mild ADHD and have a much harder time being compassionate and helpful to those who are more of a disruption.

Imnapl
12-29-10, 07:25 PM
In my experience, kids with ADHD are not very different from other children - just more so in some areas. The symptoms of ADHD are basic human behaviour - it's all a matter of degree. It's how far away from the midline we are that can cause problems.

mimi'sdreaming
12-29-10, 09:47 PM
I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. When I said that he didn't have any problems socially at school, I meant that he got along with classmates and was well liked by staff. My son was not a discipline problem. He was typical of people with ADHD in that he wore his heart on his sleeve which left him vulnerable in some situations. Neither of my children were as wordly as other kids their own age - perhaps because of the 30% rule?

Imnapl, that sounds exactly like my son! I think the 30% rule is spot on for what you described. That more than anything, has been so helpful to me in my journey with my son. I thank Dizfriz everyday for posting that one!

mimi'sdreaming
12-29-10, 09:52 PM
My granddaughter has always been well liked by teachers and other staff, but she's been picked on, teased and even bullied. Did any of that happen to your son?

Some kids (and some adults) do seem to have a radar that senses the most vulnerable kids and they go for the kill, to make themselves feel more powerful or whatever the reason. ADHD kids, as you say, seem to be wearing a target, probably because they're at least 30% delayed in some ways.

We are so fortunate that my son is well liked and has never (as of yet) been bullied. He just isn't up to speed (hip, if you will) with his other classmates. With that being said, I've been very disappointed in some parents (especially neighbors) that have allowed their children to "drop off" from my son. He's kind, sweet and good as gold; just very silly at times.

It's so hard to watch your children hurt!:(