View Full Version : Do Aspies resent their AD/HD more?


roseblood
01-03-11, 02:42 PM
I notice here that most of the people who are very negative about AD/HD and think a cure or prevention would be a good things are people who have personality traits I recognise in myself: being philosophically inclined in a cold, hard, analytical way, being articulate and fond of language(s), being prone to anxiety, REALLY wanting things to make sense all the time, not being much into or great with the 'chit-chat'/socialisation element of places like this, being somewhat pedantic, having obsessive interests that they may or may not rotate, and reporting not being lively (fidgeting excepted) and spontaneous in any way.

I am on a long waiting list to be assessed for an ASD, so obviously I suspect that I have one, and while the above traits mostly aren't official symptoms they do seem to be associated with very high functioning autism, particularly the kind involving high verbal intelligence. I'm wondering how many others of the people who are the most negative about AD/HD are on the spectrum with or without knowing it, including people whose symptoms aren't severe enough to warrant diagnosis but who have the associated personality traits that clash with AD/HD behaviour (the broader autism phenotype or BAP).

I suggest this as a possible cause of the positive/negative divide in approach because I think if I had these personality traits (plus the other more significant ones which I can't observe in people online so haven't mentioned) alone, or the AD/HD alone, I could see advantages to having them (although in the case of AD/HD, only if I were moderately hyperactive-impulsive). It's the combination that creates frustration because I feel like the AD/HD clashes with my personality and renders my strengths useless. I can be as obsessed with a topic as any Aspie but not have the organisational ability to get through any creative project about it that I might think of, or have the grades or money to study it formally.

Some of the hyperactive ADDers, including people I know offline, seem to enjoy the kinds of careers and lifestyles that their AD/HD has left relatively well available to them. However, I am strongly opposed to a lack of predictability in my life, it doesn't excite me in any positive way, and I don't like at all (and mostly couldn't keep) the vast majority of jobs that don't require a university education. Almost every kind of job I think of scares me because they all involve skills that clash either with my executive dysfunction or my ASD-like problems.

AD/HD seems to 'suit' some people. They seem happy to retain at least some symptoms if it means they can still be talkative and exciting and risk-taking to some extent. Some clearly have all the symptoms and history of impairment but don't view themselves as having anything wrong and believe they will find their niche without changing themselves at all. However, it doesn't 'suit' me, the resulting behaviour doesn't fit with how I see myself inside or how I initially come across to others, or with what I want to achieve. Does anyone else feel this way and do you think it's related to the spectrum, or to something else?

sarek
01-03-11, 06:27 PM
As usual I am right in between both worlds. I fit pretty much all the symptoms you describe in the first paragraph.

And I have at times considered the possibility of being on the spectrum myself.
There are about as many arguments against it in my case as there are supporting it.
And provided its happening somewhat on my terms I find myself able to socialise well enough to get by although I hate smalltalk and chatter.

Whatever handicaps I have in the social/career/relationship field are just as easily explainable by social anxiety.

Yet on the other hand I am not one of those who hate ADHD though I have more than enough reason to.
But besides the obvious downsides which have done much to paralyse my life I am still seeing the bonuses as well. I know for a fact that my mind can go places others often can not follow.

It is perhaps significant(or maybe not) to note that on personality tests I always end up balancing between thinking and feeling.

Crazygirl79
01-03-11, 08:14 PM
I'm on the mild end of the spectrum and I actually embrace my ADHD as I have found that most Aspies with ADD/ADHD are less intense, have better social awareness and skills and are more fun to be around.

Those with just straight ASD are pretty painful to put it plainly.

Selena

fracturedstory
01-04-11, 06:55 PM
I like some of my ADHD traits. Sometimes my autism gets me stuck on one thing but the ADHD in me will want to switch to something else. The lack of organisation in ADHD is balanced by my need for order and everything to be the same.

I wrote a particularly long blog about my co-mormid conditions at my signature link.

I'm combined ADHD so being inattentive some days and hyperactive/ impulsive the next as well as having my more autistic days just keeps my life unexpected and interesting. Maybe this can help me deal better with change. Although not much has happened in that area.

Having autism makes my ADHD symptoms not bother me as much. They are a bit annoying but are more manageable then my stereotypical autism behaviour.

Although I'm a very intense less social aware person. But I have little social anxiety. I'm too sensory overloaded to even notice other people or care what they think about me.

My verbal IQ is adequate. Not as high as most people with Asperger's syndrome and my long term memory is not as detailed, probably because of the ADHD or maybe the severity of my autism.

Anyway, I like having ADHD. The energy, the many interesting thoughts and ideas and it makes me different from some others on the autism spectrum.
But I love my attention to detail, my ability to just shut off from the world, being locked in my special interests for weeks/ months/ years and my overall different interpretation of the world. Synesthesia is fun too!

Scooter77
01-04-11, 08:02 PM
I have both and I can't say I've ever thought of it in the way the OP says.

I kind of think they're an ok combination (as far as these things go!), ADHD gives a bit of life to the ASD and the ASD tones down the ADHD.

My 7 y/o son is also both and I'm actually thankful he has both rather than one or the other!
The aspie obsessions mean I get some relief while he's happily and quietly playing lego in his own little world for hours at a time.
The ADHD gives him a level of creativity and curiosity that isnt as evident in straight ASD kids.

Some days I watch him in ADHD flight, bouncing off the lounge room walls - and I thank god for the lego obsessions!

bumpey
01-04-11, 08:37 PM
makes sense, just adds to my confusion

Fortune
01-04-11, 09:37 PM
I'm reasonably certain of the possibility of AS.

I like having interests I can focus on forever. Okay, I love having interests I can focus on forever, and it's cool when friends suggest my knowledge of a particular topic is encyclopedic.

I feel like what Scooter77 says makes sense, and explains things I was trying to understand (and failing) with just ADHD.

I am not entirely enamored of many of my ADHD symptoms. Impulsiveness especially has caused me a lot of pain in the past - socially and financially - and I would happily get rid of that if I could. I do not love hyperactivity, as it makes it difficult for me to do the things I want to do. I do not like being hypoactive when I am, because it means it's difficult to initiate things.

So I don't know if I resent my ADHD more than anyone else but I do resent it a lot. Maybe if you'd asked me 14 years ago (and I knew then) I might answer differently, but there's a lot of history between now and then.

nova2012
01-04-11, 11:30 PM
OP, you raise a very intriguing and interesting point, and one which I've considered before. Where, exactly, does the intersection between ADHD and Asperger's lie, if there is one? I've heard that the two disorders are etiologically related, which really does make some sense.

I used to be convinced I had Asperger's, and maybe I have some traits of it, but I also have significant OCD, and OCD is associated with some level of cognitive rigidity. I do sometimes tend to be a little blunt and pedantic at the same time, but I think some of that can be explained by the OCD + ADHD combination.

I also have social anxiety. I don't really have enough social skills deficits to the point that I inherently can't socialize normally, but my social anxiety effectively precludes that. When I was very young, I was extremely bossy with playmates and wanted everyone to do things my way, exerting my force on and manipulating them (or trying to), which is more characteristic of ADHD than Asperger's, to my knowledge. At surface level, the "wanting people to do things my way" is also Asperger's, but many people with Asperger's simply don't care if others do things their way; they want to do things their way.

Maybe I also have some theory of mind problems, too. I tend to go overboard in trying to convey my opinion and persuade others that it's the right one, rarely agreeing to disagree. They've done some studies about OCD and theory of mind deficits but the conclusions were that OCD presents little theory of mind impairment. I know ADHD does in childhood, but I believe those deficits are mostly recovered in adulthood. And maybe theory of mind, in my case, is a red herring, and my ENFP personality combined with my disorders just makes me hyper-prone to the art of attempting to persuade (and usually failing :(). That's another thing: most people with Asperger's aren't ENFP. Maybe I have OCPD traits, too.

Argghhh! I go crazy when I think about this stuff, because a) I can ruminate and go on about it for hours in my mind (and here), and b) I thought I'd put it past me and concluded (also with the opinion of several professionals) that I didn't have it, but this thread triggered my OCD about it (not blaming you, OP, but I do have OCD and have "triggers" about obsessions). I'm seeing a new p-doc next Monday and may ask him about it. But everyone I've talked to said they didn't think I had Asperger's, most likely at least in part because I seem so engaged in conversation and am a good conversationalist.

roseblood
01-05-11, 06:17 AM
Yet on the other hand I am not one of those who hate ADHD though I have more than enough reason to.
But besides the obvious downsides which have done much to paralyse my life I am still seeing the bonuses as well. I know for a fact that my mind can go places others often can not follow.
I have suspected mine can too, since I was quite young. I don't know if it's in the same ways as you but I do share a sense of having a very specific type of intelligence that I excel at. Can't prove it because it doesn't seem to be tested formally yet, but I'm pretty sure it's there at least to some extent. For me, certain things such as which kinds of arguments are logical fallacies and why, and how to spot and deconstruct them, have been obvious to me for as long as I can remember, while people who would probably get higher IQ scores than mine had to have it spelled out in Critical Thinking class, and continued to use them at times even then, without realising instantly that that's what they were. This is painfully obvious when I try to discuss philosophical issues, especially ethics, with anyone except some of the kinds of people who congregate at the same places I have sometimes gone to online.

I've just never found it plausible that it would be associated with AD/HD. Anecdotally, I find that people with AD/HD tendencies or diagnoses without also significant autistic ones as a group seem to me just like NTs as a group in every way except for their impulsivity, emotional lability, hyperactivity and/or attention-related cognitive deficits and a higher rate of certain other disabilities, and consequently I feel an alien in their company just as often as I do around NTs, except less judged for my AD/HD symptoms.

Also, there is nothing I know of that's been discovered about the AD/HD brain that could be expected to make it superior at any type of reasoning. The parts that are sometimes bigger, are not known to play a role in higher thought processes. The autistic brain on the other hand tends to have more grey matter than the average brain, for example, and seems to be more diverse, in the sense that it seems it's often wired up in a number of different ways, producing many different types of synaesthesia and even savantism at a higher rate than is found in non-autists. This poses at least a theoretical link to average differences in reasoning.

I'm not saying that people with AD/HD alone can't have various superior mental abilities, or that they're less likely to, I'm just saying I don't think there is reason to think that they're etiologically related to the AD/HD, just as when an NT has a particular talent, it's not assumed that it's because of their neurotypicality unless it's one of the traits that defines neurotypicality in the first place, such as complex planning ability or facial expression recognition. On the other hand, a trait that IS related to the definition of AD/HD is talkativeness. If someone with AD/HD were a tireless and enthusiastic conversationalist and could use this to excel in their career or other area of life, that would be an example of a talent that might be etiologically related to their AD/HD, that their AD/HD contributed to along with certain personality traits, such as good interpersonal instinct, that happen to complement it well. Which brings me back to my suggestion: maybe my biggest challenge is not the AD/HD, but the fact that other aspects of my brain and personality don't complement my AD/HD well. From what others have said, it is probably much more complicated than whether you have ASD or not, but I do think that my particular combination of the ASD traits I have and don't have, and the AD/HD traits I have and don't have, happens to be unharmonious.

If I DID think that without my AD/HD I wouldn't have one of my relative strengths, I would be more positive about AD/HD in general, and less keen on ridding myself of it entirely. I just remain to be convinced of that. Instead it seems to me like in my case, my strengths are not only unrelated to my AD/HD, but locked away by it.

roseblood
01-05-11, 06:59 AM
I'm on the mild end of the spectrum and I actually embrace my ADHD as I have found that most Aspies with ADD/ADHD are less intense, have better social awareness and skills and are more fun to be around.

Those with just straight ASD are pretty painful to put it plainly.

Selena
I don't have any known experience with people with both. All the ASDers I know who aren't a bit lower functioning seem very well organised and together, it makes me jealous actually. I will look out for that tendency.

roseblood
01-05-11, 10:47 AM
I like some of my ADHD traits. Sometimes my autism gets me stuck on one thing but the ADHD in me will want to switch to something else. The lack of organisation in ADHD is balanced by my need for order and everything to be the same.
I'm curious about how this works and what you mean. It doesn't seem to matter how much I need order, I can't achieve enough of it because of my lack of organisational ability. Wanting it doesn't make it happen, basically. I often create useless substitutes for any useful kind of order, by controlling things that don't need to be controlled but which I can manage, precisely because I can't achieve the order that I actually do need. It's one of the ways in which I think my AD/HD and ASD traits make each other more distressing.

roseblood
01-05-11, 11:33 AM
I have both and I can't say I've ever thought of it in the way the OP says.

I kind of think they're an ok combination (as far as these things go!), ADHD gives a bit of life to the ASD and the ASD tones down the ADHD.

My 7 y/o son is also both and I'm actually thankful he has both rather than one or the other!
The aspie obsessions mean I get some relief while he's happily and quietly playing lego in his own little world for hours at a time.
The ADHD gives him a level of creativity and curiosity that isnt as evident in straight ASD kids.

Some days I watch him in ADHD flight, bouncing off the lounge room walls - and I thank god for the lego obsessions!
It's been said before here that fewer non-hyperactive than hyperactive ADDers seem to mention things they like about having it, regardless of ASD status, so maybe if others feel as I do they will tend to be the non-hyperactive kind. AD/HD-C people don't tend to enjoy everything about hyperactivity, and it does carry unique long-term risks, statistically, but they do more often find SOMETHING positive to say about it, as they have in this thread, so far. Maybe it's not such a bad combination with the hyperactive types. That surprises me, I would have thought it would be a worse one, because hyperactive-impulsive people are more often rejected by others, and I would have thought ASD along with that would make this problem worse.

Do you think that if he were a lethargic, nervous child, the obsessions would still seem positive to you? I would imagine that such obsessions would actually add to frustrations for a parent whose child seemed to lack interest in trying new things, taking any risks and in any physical exertion. I wasn't actually a typical sluggish cognitive tempo kid, was a bit of strange SCT/mildly-hyperactive-in-the-right-situation hybrid, but anyway, my mother was quite slow to realise that my lack of engagement with the real world was a concern, as she's naturally molly-coddling anyway, but now I'm an adult it concerns her a lot more that I haven't naturally picked up on life skills that most people my age have. The obsessions bother me too now, they used to be an escape but I don't like the feeling of not being able to resist thinking about them instead of focusing on doing something important or on the thing I'm doing that should be fun. Regular mindfulness practice is starting to help, it's early days though.

roseblood
01-05-11, 12:23 PM
But everyone I've talked to said they didn't think I had Asperger's, most likely at least in part because I seem so engaged in conversation and am a good conversationalist.
Could that be because you are interested in AS? It's quite normal for people with ASDs to be very engaged, even over-engaged, in conversations when the topic is of interest. Also, many do become quite inconspicuous by adulthood for different reasons, some of them explained in the link below. It's not always obvious.

I don't really relate to most of the 'textbook' descriptions and case studies because they tend to focus on certain possible symptoms more than others, without regard to the DSM-IV criteria, and some of my most troubling ones (e.g. some bizarre, and some physically damaging stimming behaviour) are those that are usually neglected, and because they mention only the most stereotypical kinds special interests (maths, planets etc.) and other manifestations of the symptoms more common in boys.

I relate extremely well however to the things described in this article by Tony Attwood about how many girls manifest the symptoms. I see from your profile that you're male, but I wonder if some of the factors described in the article might apply to you as well anyway, as not all girls and all boys have the brain type and cognitive profile most typical of their sex, and because some of the factors could come about through your environment rather than your own traits, e.g. having a special friend who looks after you is more likely in girls but it could also happen to a boy if he was lucky. Here's that article (http://www.tonyattwood.com.au/index.php?Itemid=181&catid=45:archived-resource-papers&id=80:the-pattern-of-abilities-and-development-of-girls-with-aspergers-syndrome&option=com_content&view=article) :)

nova2012
01-05-11, 01:32 PM
Could that be because you are interested in AS? It's quite normal for people with ASDs to be very engaged, even over-engaged, in conversations when the topic is of interest. Also, many do become quite inconspicuous by adulthood for different reasons, some of them explained in the link below. It's not always obvious.

I don't really relate to most of the 'textbook' descriptions and case studies because they tend to focus on certain possible symptoms more than others, without regard to the DSM-IV criteria, and some of my most troubling ones (e.g. some bizarre, and some physically damaging stimming behaviour) are those that are usually neglected, and because they mention only the most stereotypical kinds special interests (maths, planets etc.) and other manifestations of the symptoms more common in boys.

I relate extremely well however to the things described in this article by Tony Attwood about how many girls manifest the symptoms. I see from your profile that you're male, but I wonder if some of the factors described in the article might apply to you as well anyway, as not all girls and all boys have the brain type and cognitive profile most typical of their sex, and because some of the factors could come about through your environment rather than your own traits, e.g. having a special friend who looks after you is more likely in girls but it could also happen to a boy if he was lucky. Here's that article (http://www.tonyattwood.com.au/index.php?Itemid=181&catid=45:archived-resource-papers&id=80:the-pattern-of-abilities-and-development-of-girls-with-aspergers-syndrome&option=com_content&view=article) :)

I'm actually a good conversationalist, in general, or so I've been told. It doesn't have to be when the topic is one of my hypothetical special interests, which actually don't exist. I also don't stim at all.

I honestly don't think I'm diagnosable, unless the practitioner were very liberal in his diagnostic process, but I feel sometimes like my mind itself works somewhat autistically, in terms of having an occasional propensity for accumulating facts and statistics (with the inconsistency that ADHD implies), being somewhat pedantic, and some other things. But, again, maybe that's just my OCD, combined with ADHD.

I didn't read the whole article, in part because I'm trying to avoid possible OCD triggers. Sorry.

roseblood
01-05-11, 05:48 PM
I'm actually a good conversationalist, in general, or so I've been told. It doesn't have to be when the topic is one of my hypothetical special interests, which actually don't exist. I also don't stim at all.

I honestly don't think I'm diagnosable, unless the practitioner were very liberal in his diagnostic process, but I feel sometimes like my mind itself works somewhat autistically, in terms of having an occasional propensity for accumulating facts and statistics (with the inconsistency that ADHD implies), being somewhat pedantic, and some other things. But, again, maybe that's just my OCD, combined with ADHD.

I didn't read the whole article, in part because I'm trying to avoid possible OCD triggers. Sorry.
Oh OK, sorry, I missed that you're not actually trying to figure it out at the moment.

I have seen it claimed that not being able to agree to disagree as easily as most people is associated with AD/HD. I have that problem in the sense that when I disagree with someone about a fact significant to humanity, such as whether a particular food is healthy or not (nutrition was one of my past obsessions and I still have a lot of knowledge left over from it), I start to associate the bad feelings I have about the consequences of what they want to happen with the people themselves and their intentions, and have to remind myself that they don't WANT bad things to happen, they just believe differently about what would and wouldn't cause bad things to happen.

Not sure I'd characterise it as a failure of theory of mind, it feels more like a problem with attention switching actually. Feelings and feeling-laced images get associated with concepts (other people's intentions) which, when I reflect or am self-aware enough to notice it happening, I know they have no business being associated with. Perhaps the result of a mind hurtling about erratically and forgetting where it's just been most of the time.

Scooter77
01-05-11, 06:53 PM
It's been said before here that fewer non-hyperactive than hyperactive ADDers seem to mention things they like about having it, regardless of ASD status, so maybe if others feel as I do they will tend to be the non-hyperactive kind. AD/HD-C people don't tend to enjoy everything about hyperactivity, and it does carry unique long-term risks, statistically, but they do more often find SOMETHING positive to say about it, as they have in this thread, so far. Maybe it's not such a bad combination with the hyperactive types. That surprises me, I would have thought it would be a worse one, because hyperactive-impulsive people are more often rejected by others, and I would have thought ASD along with that would make this problem worse.

Do you think that if he were a lethargic, nervous child, the obsessions would still seem positive to you? I would imagine that such obsessions would actually add to frustrations for a parent whose child seemed to lack interest in trying new things, taking any risks and in any physical exertion. I wasn't actually a typical sluggish cognitive tempo kid, was a bit of strange SCT/mildly-hyperactive-in-the-right-situation hybrid, but anyway, my mother was quite slow to realise that my lack of engagement with the real world was a concern, as she's naturally molly-coddling anyway, but now I'm an adult it concerns her a lot more that I haven't naturally picked up on life skills that most people my age have. The obsessions bother me too now, they used to be an escape but I don't like the feeling of not being able to resist thinking about them instead of focusing on doing something important or on the thing I'm doing that should be fun. Regular mindfulness practice is starting to help, it's early days though.

Hmm, my son is a mix of both. He has the drive-your-mother-mental-hyperactivity, along with exceptionally high anxiety, and very rigid thoughts and behaviours. Meaning he won't try new things and is very set in his ways/thoughts, and he's not a sporty kid at all. Getting him outside can equal world war 3!
The hyperactivity is what I find the hardest to deal with - by far. Especially if his anxiety's up. He can go into a hyperactive Aspie panic attack where there is literally nothing I can do to calm him down. Both his brain and his body are working overtime and he can't slow down enough to see reason.
I think, even without hyperactivity, I would still feel the obsessions have a positive place - as the Aspie anxiety alone can be devastating.
Obsessions not only calm the anxiety, they also help to temporarily reduce the threshold - if you start at a lower point you can take that little bit more before you hit panic stations.

Scooter77
01-05-11, 07:07 PM
OP, you raise a very intriguing and interesting point, and one which I've considered before. Where, exactly, does the intersection between ADHD and Asperger's lie, if there is one? I've heard that the two disorders are etiologically related, which really does make some sense.

I used to be convinced I had Asperger's, and maybe I have some traits of it, but I also have significant OCD, and OCD is associated with some level of cognitive rigidity. I do sometimes tend to be a little blunt and pedantic at the same time, but I think some of that can be explained by the OCD + ADHD combination.

I also have social anxiety. I don't really have enough social skills deficits to the point that I inherently can't socialize normally, but my social anxiety effectively precludes that. When I was very young, I was extremely bossy with playmates and wanted everyone to do things my way, exerting my force on and manipulating them (or trying to), which is more characteristic of ADHD than Asperger's, to my knowledge. At surface level, the "wanting people to do things my way" is also Asperger's, but many people with Asperger's simply don't care if others do things their way; they want to do things their way.

Maybe I also have some theory of mind problems, too. I tend to go overboard in trying to convey my opinion and persuade others that it's the right one, rarely agreeing to disagree. They've done some studies about OCD and theory of mind deficits but the conclusions were that OCD presents little theory of mind impairment. I know ADHD does in childhood, but I believe those deficits are mostly recovered in adulthood. And maybe theory of mind, in my case, is a red herring, and my ENFP personality combined with my disorders just makes me hyper-prone to the art of attempting to persuade (and usually failing :(). That's another thing: most people with Asperger's aren't ENFP. Maybe I have OCPD traits, too.

Argghhh! I go crazy when I think about this stuff, because a) I can ruminate and go on about it for hours in my mind (and here), and b) I thought I'd put it past me and concluded (also with the opinion of several professionals) that I didn't have it, but this thread triggered my OCD about it (not blaming you, OP, but I do have OCD and have "triggers" about obsessions). I'm seeing a new p-doc next Monday and may ask him about it. But everyone I've talked to said they didn't think I had Asperger's, most likely at least in part because I seem so engaged in conversation and am a good conversationalist.

Some suggest there is a spectrum containing all these disorders - adhd, aspie, bipolar, ocd etc. That there is an underlying disease/illness/disorder/damage/whatever that manifests as a particular disorder due to environmental triggers - be that pre or post natal. Of course that's just one theory.
Originally I was told that eventually ADHD mutates into Aspergers....not sure about that one.

Being blunt and pedantic are also Aspie traits. OCD can look very similar to ASD, both are related to high anxiety. I was originally dx'd OCD and was an obsessive cleaner - later realised to be an ADHD chaos coping mechanism and Aspie ordering ritual.

Social anxiety is also related to both, and actually Aspies do care when others don't do things the way they want them to - we can care very much! We have very set ideas on how things should be done and we assume other people think the same way! It can be very upsetting when other people do things differently to what we want and expect.

I don't know what ENFP is but as for theory of mind - it's not so much that it's impaired in ADHD, more that it's delayed. ADHD kids are running a bit behind developmentally, they get there in the end! ADHD kids are probably also less focused on other people than NT kids. Aspie theory of mind is a completely different issue.

Aspies also engage well in conversations that interest them.

daveddd
01-05-11, 07:11 PM
Some suggest there is a spectrum containing all these disorders - adhd, aspie, bipolar, ocd etc. That there is an underlying disease/illness/disorder/damage/whatever that manifests as a particular disorder due to environmental triggers - be that pre or post natal. Of course that's just one theory.
Originally I was told that eventually ADHD mutates into Aspergers....not sure about that one.

Being blunt and pedantic are also Aspie traits. OCD can look very similar to ASD, both are related to high anxiety. I was originally dx'd OCD and was an obsessive cleaner - later realised to be an ADHD chaos coping mechanism and Aspie ordering ritual.

Social anxiety is also related to both, and actually Aspies do care when others don't do things the way they want them to - we can care very much! We have very set ideas on how things should be done and we assume other people think the same way! It can be very upsetting when other people do things differently to what we want and expect.

I don't know what ENFP is but as for theory of mind - it's not so much that it's impaired in ADHD, more that it's delayed. ADHD kids are running a bit behind developmentally, they get there in the end! ADHD kids are probably also less focused on other people than NT kids. Aspie theory of mind is a completely different issue.

Aspies also engage well in conversations that interest them.

there has got to be some relation with some


with the similar symptoms


and i find it hard to believe if they were all separate , you would have people with 6 different comorbids that share similar traits


either that or there is too much cross diagnosing

Scooter77
01-05-11, 07:11 PM
I don't really relate to most of the 'textbook' descriptions and case studies because they tend to focus on certain possible symptoms more than others, without regard to the DSM-IV criteria, and some of my most troubling ones (e.g. some bizarre, and some physically damaging stimming behaviour) are those that are usually neglected, and because they mention only the most stereotypical kinds special interests (maths, planets etc.) and other manifestations of the symptoms more common in boys.

I relate extremely well however to the things described in this article by Tony Attwood about how many girls manifest the symptoms. I see from your profile that you're male, but I wonder if some of the factors described in the article might apply to you as well anyway, as not all girls and all boys have the brain type and cognitive profile most typical of their sex, and because some of the factors could come about through your environment rather than your own traits, e.g. having a special friend who looks after you is more likely in girls but it could also happen to a boy if he was lucky. Here's that article (http://www.tonyattwood.com.au/index.php?Itemid=181&catid=45:archived-resource-papers&id=80:the-pattern-of-abilities-and-development-of-girls-with-aspergers-syndrome&option=com_content&view=article) :)

Try reading Aspergirls by Rudy Simone.
She also has a website worth checking out with a list of female aspie traits - best list I've seen. And she identifies some of the common differences between male and female aspies.
The common ASD checklists for dx are based on males and need serious updating.

roseblood
01-05-11, 07:46 PM
I think, even without hyperactivity, I would still feel the obsessions have a positive place - as the Aspie anxiety alone can be devastating. Obsessions not only calm the anxiety, they also help to temporarily reduce the threshold - if you start at a lower point you can take that little bit more before you hit panic stations.
Oh, I definitely agree there. During my teenage years I was very lonely and anxious and depressed and I think I would have ended up institutionalised or suiciding if I couldn't derive a lot more sustained stimulation from narrow, solitary interests than most people can. It's just that I find they can have their dark side, especially now I don't have much worth escaping from, and that dark side is exacerbated by AD/HD's task avoidance and time-blindness.

Sorry everyone if I seem very negative right now, but that's because of the nature of the thread I've started. I'm essentially analysing the reasons why certain things suck to whatever extent they suck. So I'm going to keep coming back to how things suck. :D

roseblood
01-05-11, 07:49 PM
Try reading Aspergirls by Rudy Simone.
She also has a website worth checking out with a list of female aspie traits - best list I've seen. And she identifies some of the common differences between male and female aspies.
The common ASD checklists for dx are based on males and need serious updating.
Thanks for the recommendation. By the way, every time I see your avatar I chuckle. Every time. :D

Crazygirl79
01-05-11, 08:13 PM
You don't have experience with such people?? Well you've just spoken to one now, hi hows it going??

I know several people with both (both personally and online, I also tend to usually associate with people who have both) and it has been proven time and time again that a person can have both conditions and they function quiet well.

It does depend on the severity of either on both in some cases, as I've mentioned most AS with ADHD do seem to be a little bit better socially, most ADDers tend to be better than Aspies in the social sense normally anyway and I guess being an Aspie with ADD/ADHD thrown in for good measure usually balances things out a little in some respects.

1: I don't obsess over stuff the same way as someone with straight AS

2: I have better social awareness than someone with straight AS (though I am still socially impaired)

3: I am able to pick up on obviously and blantant social cues where as some straight AS people have difficulty.

4: I am able to see different sides to a story, theory etc and people usually have more success in getting me to see different sides to things whereas some straight AS people have difficulty in this area.

What I've just mentioned about is about my own case and every AS with ADD/ADHD will be very different to the next person.

Selena:)

I don't have any known experience with people with both. All the ASDers I know who aren't a bit lower functioning seem very well organised and together, it makes me jealous actually. I will look out for that tendency.

Fortune
01-05-11, 08:14 PM
Oh, I definitely agree there. During my teenage years I was very lonely and anxious and depressed and I think I would have ended up institutionalised or suiciding if I couldn't derive a lot more sustained stimulation from narrow, solitary interests than most people can. It's just that I find they can have their dark side, especially now I don't have much worth escaping from, and that dark side is exacerbated by AD/HD's task avoidance and time-blindness.

I could have written this, although it's been even moreso in the past 10 years. My interests have been more consuming as my depression became worse, I think.

At really bad times it's hard for me to engage my interests at all, but most of the time I get pretty absorbed in them.

fracturedstory
01-05-11, 08:20 PM
I'm curious about how this works and what you mean. It doesn't seem to matter how much I need order, I can't achieve enough of it because of my lack of organisational ability. Wanting it doesn't make it happen, basically. I often create useless substitutes for any useful kind of order, by controlling things that don't need to be controlled but which I can manage, precisely because I can't achieve the order that I actually do need. It's one of the ways in which I think my AD/HD and ASD traits make each other more distressing.
I'm very strict on myself. Since I write everything down in a to-do list it's imperative that I follow it. It becomes a part of my routine and if I break it something similar to a meltdown around too loud sounds/ too bright lights or my usual aversion to change takes place.
It's almost as if it's a law that I'm not allowed to break. Naturally, I have high regard for rules and do my best to follow them properly.

I don't think autism has as much executive dysfunction as ADHD.

Sometimes I do fail to be more ordered and my ADHD symptoms take over but I try to use my need of order to keep them in line.

Some people tell me I have dedication. I think it is stubbornness and the fact I will stop functioning if my life was structured (or not) any other way.

nova2012
01-05-11, 09:38 PM
I have seen it claimed that not being able to agree to disagree as easily as most people is associated with AD/HD. I have that problem in the sense that when I disagree with someone about a fact significant to humanity, such as whether a particular food is healthy or not (nutrition was one of my past obsessions and I still have a lot of knowledge left over from it), I start to associate the bad feelings I have about the consequences of what they want to happen with the people themselves and their intentions, and have to remind myself that they don't WANT bad things to happen, they just believe differently about what would and wouldn't cause bad things to happen.

Not sure I'd characterise it as a failure of theory of mind, it feels more like a problem with attention switching actually. Feelings and feeling-laced images get associated with concepts (other people's intentions) which, when I reflect or am self-aware enough to notice it happening, I know they have no business being associated with. Perhaps the result of a mind hurtling about erratically and forgetting where it's just been most of the time.

I do get those negative feelings about people when they disagree or seem to share a different point of view, almost like a black-and-white appraisal of them based on their opinions on one subject. Or, at least, my opinion of them is reduced substantially. I'm also quite guilty of black-and-white and categorical thinking in many areas, and I can't figure out which condition that might be most related to. It seems almost Aspie, but could also be OCD, or a general personality characteristic. The Aspie part of it might boil down to wanting things to "make sense" and fit into some ideal, but arbitrary cosmic order that I've created. But, again, I think it's hard to differentiate OC(P)D (and other personality issues) and Asperger's in many settings. This site says black-and-white thinking is characteristic of ADHD with hyperactivity: http://www.ldpride.net/addsub-types.htm My ADHD coach, however, doesn't seem to think it's necessarily an ADHD trait, and she's worked with dozens of people with ADHD. What's also interesting is that some folks think that if ADHD is not properly addressed in childhood, borderline personality traits are common in adulthood; black-and-white thinking is one characteristic of people with BPD, although it's one of many and manifests more in interpersonal relationships ("splitting") than general world view.

It may be a combination of attentional and theory of mind issues--the theory of mind part of in that it's hard to understand and accept that the other person's opinion is equally legitimate and worthy of consideration, and the attention part in that you're "hyperfocusing" on the argument and have problems disengaging.

FWIW, on all the Asperger's forums I've been on, few people seem to carry on in endless debates and personal attack-based arguments like I'm able to (I rarely devolve to personal attacks but I have before, especially in my more immature adolescent years of online debating). It's almost like an frustration management and self-esteem issue in my case: I feel compelled to battle to the death, lest I feel my normal feelings of inadequacy and self-loathing for not having prevailed--once again--and probably also because I'm unable to debate with such ferocity in person because I'm crippled by my social phobia.

I thought I'd settled the question of whether I had Asperger's or not, but now I'm beginning to question and doubt and ruminate. I shouldn't have set "foot" into this thread, lol. Oh well.

Some suggest there is a spectrum containing all these disorders - adhd, aspie, bipolar, ocd etc. That there is an underlying disease/illness/disorder/damage/whatever that manifests as a particular disorder due to environmental triggers - be that pre or post natal. Of course that's just one theory.
Originally I was told that eventually ADHD mutates into Aspergers....not sure about that one.

I don't think the spectrum contains all of the disorders. Mood disorders seem very distinct from disorders like ADHD, Asperger's, and OCD. If all of these exist under one spectrum, I don't see how that's too different than, say, all lung diseases occurring in a spectrum, which just isn't the case. The brain, like any other, is an organ and presumably has its own distinct set of disorders that may exist on their own spectrum but not together on one single spectrum.

I would, however, not be surprised if ADHD and Asperger's were discovered to share a relatively common etiology. Both are neurological malformations with highly genetic components. Both are seen together more than would be expected by chance. Both have significant symptomatic overlap. And both impair life in significant ways, rendering those who suffer them markedly and clearly "different" than most.

Being blunt and pedantic are also Aspie traits. OCD can look very similar to ASD, both are related to high anxiety. I was originally dx'd OCD and was an obsessive cleaner - later realised to be an ADHD chaos coping mechanism and Aspie ordering ritual.

I'm not really sure how blunt I am (you can feel free to tell me, heh). I notice that sometimes, I want to cut straight to the point, but I know this is also a very ADHD tendency, too. Again, there's a lot of overlap here, as we've discussed.

I definitely have pathological and discrete, classic OCD, and have for most of my life. I am plagued by intrusive, awful thoughts with either mental or physical rituals to eliminate them. It gets markedly worse under stress, to the extent that I was absolutely convinced (maybe to the point of being delusional) for several months that I was a psychopath and a future serial killer because of the thoughts I had. That was before I discovered that a) OCD intrusive thoughts, no matter how gruesome, are harmless, and b) there have been no documented cases (much unlike schizophrenia or other psychotic disorders/states) of people with OCD carrying out the thoughts they have.

Social anxiety is also related to both, and actually Aspies do care when others don't do things the way they want them to - we can care very much! We have very set ideas on how things should be done and we assume other people think the same way! It can be very upsetting when other people do things differently to what we want and expect.

In my experience, on social anxiety forums and talking to people who have it, social anxiety often, but not always, manifests differently for ADHD and NT people versus Aspies. Aspie social anxiety often manifests in more performance-related anxiety than fear of negative evaluation, embarrassment, or criticism, as does generalized social phobia. There have been a few studies on the differences between these two conditions. I personally believe that many Aspies do not experience classic social anxiety because of the theory of mind deficits, while ADHD/NTs are more vulnerable to it because the fear of negative evaluation is more specific to criticism, embarrassment, and other ego-related blows, rather than the fear of failing, as a separate concept.

I don't know what ENFP is but as for theory of mind - it's not so much that it's impaired in ADHD, more that it's delayed. ADHD kids are running a bit behind developmentally, they get there in the end! ADHD kids are probably also less focused on other people than NT kids. Aspie theory of mind is a completely different issue.

ENFP is a Myers-Briggs personality type--extroverted intuitive feeling perceiving. "NF" is one of the more common combinations you find in ADHD, versus "IxTJ" or "IxTP" for Asperger's. This isn't obviously true for everyone, as we are not our disorders, but they do dictate a lot of our personality.

Aspies also engage well in conversations that interest them.

Could you see calling an Aspie a good conversationalist, in a wide variety of topics? To me, that typically doesn't fit the bill.

I'm very strict on myself. Since I write everything down in a to-do list it's imperative that I follow it. It becomes a part of my routine and if I break it something similar to a meltdown around too loud sounds/ too bright lights or my usual aversion to change takes place.
It's almost as if it's a law that I'm not allowed to break. Naturally, I have high regard for rules and do my best to follow them properly.

I don't think autism has as much executive dysfunction as ADHD.

Sometimes I do fail to be more ordered and my ADHD symptoms take over but I try to use my need of order to keep them in line.

Some people tell me I have dedication. I think it is stubbornness and the fact I will stop functioning if my life was structured (or not) any other way.

I have some strict routines, like compulsively needing to take a shower before I "feel right" and leave the house, although I'm able to function somewhat if I don't; I just continually obsess about it and only feel better once I've taken my shower. I also have some residual sensory issues from childhood, which definitely factor into the needing to take a shower. I also don't wear the same shirts or socks more than once, or the same thing happens. When I was younger, I would sometimes get very angry (mostly internally; worst that happened, and sometimes still does, is I'd curse myself out intensely for not finding something clean to wear or taking a shower) if I couldn't satisfy these compulsions, not because of the routine itself, but because I would "feel" dirty and anxious. So maybe it's more OCD + sensory issues. ADHD also has a common comorbidity of sensory integration issues.

In general, though, I'm probably one of the most unstructured people you'll meet, at least behaviorally (to-do lists, calendars, etc. I sometimes vow half-heartedly to start using one system or another, and then inevitably stop by the third or so day), which is probably my downfall. Not unlike Aspies, ADHDers need structure too and function very poorly without it. But, they're not as good at imposing their own structure on themselves, so in that sense, I think Aspies have a leg up on them.

fracturedstory
01-06-11, 12:17 AM
I hate feeling unclean but I'll wear unwashed clothes because they're comfortable. I need clothes to feel right if I'm going to go out somewhere and wear them otherwise I'll feel uncomfortable. It's almost a tactile discomfort.
But they too get dirty and need to be washed.

I actually struggled to put clothes in the washing like normal people. After a shower the clothes in the bathroom would be washed and some favourite jeans. Now I have a laundry box that I fill and take to be washed. It was really really hard for me to grasp that before.
I wonder if there are other things people do that I just don't pick up on?

nova2012
01-06-11, 12:52 AM
I hate feeling unclean but I'll wear unwashed clothes because they're comfortable. I need clothes to feel right if I'm going to go out somewhere and wear them otherwise I'll feel uncomfortable. It's almost a tactile discomfort.
But they too get dirty and need to be washed.

See, to me, unwashed clothes feel gross. Maybe I sweat more than average, but I feel like there's a distinctly different feeling I get when I wear a shirt or socks that I've worn recently--as though I "feel" the sweat from the previous day on my skin. It feels clammy. I don't really have a problem with jeans, although if I hyperfocus on it, I'll often get a bothersome itch that needs to be scratched. Maybe I'm just manufacturing it... hard to say.

I actually struggled to put clothes in the washing like normal people. After a shower the clothes in the bathroom would be washed and some favourite jeans. Now I have a laundry box that I fill and take to be washed. It was really really hard for me to grasp that before.

So, were you doing laundry every day? I can understand how that would get tiresome. It almost sounds like a common sense "glitch" I'd experience, too.

I wonder if there are other things people do that I just don't pick up on?

I think that goes for both ADHDers and Aspies, but I'm not sure. I also tend to over-think things, too. A couple months ago, I went to the car wash and spent about 5 minutes afterward trying to figure out where to put or to whom to give my tip. After not knowing what to do, I sped off in frustration without tipping anyone! I was just concerned that if I gave it to one person, he wouldn't distribute it properly and would just keep it (I'm pretty cynical), and that wouldn't be fair. But, as they say, don't let perfect become the enemy of good... :)

Scooter77
01-06-11, 01:12 AM
[quote=nova2012;996124] What's also interesting is that some folks think that if ADHD is not properly addressed in childhood, borderline personality traits are common in adulthood; black-and-white thinking is one characteristic of people with BPD.

Black and white thinking applies to a lot of people, and it is an Aspie trait. But it's not something I've heard of as being 'related' to ADHD.

I would, however, not be surprised if ADHD and Asperger's were discovered to share a relatively common etiology. Both are neurological malformations with highly genetic components. Both are seen together more than would be expected by chance. Both have significant symptomatic overlap. And both impair life in significant ways, rendering those who suffer them markedly and clearly "different" than most.

All the comments here also apply to Bipolar, addictions and other disorders.
Most, including ADHD and Aspergers, also have issues with mood regulation - just like the mood disorders.
Additionally, mood and anxiety disorders are very common co-morbids to the other disorders.
So maybe they are not as different as the labels suggest?

I'm not really sure how blunt I am (you can feel free to tell me, heh). I notice that sometimes, I want to cut straight to the point, but I know this is also a very ADHD tendency, too. Again, there's a lot of overlap here, as we've discussed.

I'm blunt and I know it! I think partly its due to ADHD and a lack of filtering between thoughts and speech. The more stressed/anxious/excited I am - the less ability I have to filter what I'm saying.
Also partly due to Aspergers, I tend to assume other people think the same as me so I dont expect them to misunderstand or be offended.
My partner tells me I only take one foot out so I can wedge the other one in!

In my experience, on social anxiety forums and talking to people who have it, social anxiety often, but not always, manifests differently for ADHD and NT people versus Aspies. Aspie social anxiety often manifests in more performance-related anxiety than fear of negative evaluation, embarrassment, or criticism, as does generalized social phobia.

I've never heard that before and I completely disagree. Aspie's are fully aware they are judged harshly by others and it causes no end of distress. ADHD and ASD are both hidden disorders.

I personally believe that many Aspies do not experience classic social anxiety because of the theory of mind deficits, while ADHD/NTs are more vulnerable to it because the fear of negative evaluation is more specific to criticism, embarrassment, and other ego-related blows, rather than the fear of failing, as a separate concept.

Ok I have to say something about theory of mind because it's not the be-all and end-all of ASD.
Aspie TOM is impaired in the sense that NT's intuitively have it as part of their normal development, Aspie's have to actively learn it through ours (and vicarious) experiences.
Also, and importantly, Aspies are hyper-sensitive! We absorb other people's emotions and moods like sponges, but we may not be able to name or explain them. This is a HUGE reason why we avoid people and situations.
I avoid emotional people because they are too distressing for me, not because I don't care or I can't tell they're upset. I know they're upset and I can link action and reaction, cause and effect. What I don't intuitively know is their personal take on the situation. I can only imagine how I would react and then remind myself that other people dont react like me, so I estimate from that baseline.

Believe me, Aspies do experience classic social anxiety.

Could you see calling an Aspie a good conversationalist, in a wide variety of topics? To me, that typically doesn't fit the bill.

When we feel safe and happy and we have something to say - just you try and shut us up!

I have some strict routines, like compulsively needing to take a shower before I "feel right" and leave the house, although I'm able to function somewhat if I don't; I just continually obsess about it and only feel better once I've taken my shower. I also have some residual sensory issues from childhood, which definitely factor into the needing to take a shower. When I was younger, I would sometimes get very angry (mostly internally; worst that happened, and sometimes still does, is I'd curse myself out intensely for not finding something clean to wear or taking a shower) if I couldn't satisfy these compulsions, not because of the routine itself, but because I would "feel" dirty and anxious. So maybe it's more OCD + sensory issues. ADHD also has a common comorbidity of sensory integration issues.

This is different to ASD.
Aspie routine just has to be done! It's not an internal thought process. It's the inability to disconnect from the routine until it has been followed through in its entirety. It is the following of the process in the right way that is soothing. It's a very difficult concept to explain.
Interrupting a routine early increases anxiety, but not via conscious thoughts. I don't have negative self-talk, anxiety for me is a physical sensation.
Routines keep me calm, bring my anxiety below threshold. They're like taking aspirin for a headache.
If I'm ok I can disrupt a routine and get away with feeling temporarily uncomfortable. If I'm stressed and a routine is disrupted - RUN FOR COVER!!! I have no tolerance and no control over the reaction, I have a meltdown.
Routines control the anxiety level to an extent, they're a coping mechanism.

Sensory issues are a huge part of ASD. I would venture to say they are one of the biggest factors and triggers.
Aspies are hyper-sensitive, too much info coming in from all the senses. If the intensity increases in any way there's just no leeway to cope with it.

Not unlike Aspies, ADHDers need structure too and function very poorly without it. But, they're not as good at imposing their own structure on themselves, so in that sense, I think Aspies have a leg up on them.

Very true - and yes and no!
The Aspie routines are generally unconscious, keeping everything the same is the simplest way of protecting your anxiety level. But it's not done consciously and it doesnt particularly involve productive organisation!
Quite often I can get so lost in perfecting the details that I forget all about the bigger picture - can't see the forest for the trees.

nova2012
01-06-11, 02:01 AM
Black and white thinking applies to a lot of people, and it is an Aspie trait. But it's not something I've heard of as being 'related' to ADHD.

I can see how black-and-white thinking would affect at least some people with ADHD. The impulsivity, as with emotion and mood, draws the ADHD mind to extremes. In determining whether something is good, bad, or somewhere in between, the impulsivity leads the mind to gravitate to one pole or the other. I'm sure it's more common and defining in Asperger's than in ADHD, but I don't think it's uncommon in ADHD. Maybe, in reality, there are several "forms" of ADHD that we haven't nosologically and etiologically identified and distinguished, and one is similar to Dr. Amen's "overfocused" type that might involve more black-and-white thinking.

Personally, I've always had trouble with black-and-white thought patterns. Or, perhaps we're not on the same page as far as what black-and-white thinking means, but I've definitely been told I think too categorically by people, including several therapists. One way this might manifest for me is in envisioning the future. I'm either "always" doing what I'm doing now, never foreseeing a possible change, or I'm not doing it at all. This commonly leads me to give up on something I'm attempting, because I get discouraged by my "all-or-nothing," "forever-or-never," "amazing-or-hellish" type cognition. My friend is sort of all-or-nothing, too, and I think it's common also in people with addictive personalities, which he definitely has. I'm not sure if it's pathological in my case, but it probably is, because it noticeably impairs my life and judgment. I'd probably say it's related to some intersection of the ADHD and the OCD, for me, although that has yet to be scientifically demonstrated.

All the comments here also apply to Bipolar, addictions and other disorders.
Most, including ADHD and Aspergers, also have issues with mood regulation - just like the mood disorders.
Additionally, mood and anxiety disorders are very common co-morbids to the other disorders.
So maybe they are not as different as the labels suggest?

I used to think this, too, but I've learned a lot about mood disorders in the past several months. The mood dysregulation present in ADHD and Asperger's is more related to the phenomenon of "emotional/affective lability," or being drawn to one emotional pole or the other as a result of life circumstances, not endogenous and biochemical changes. Sometimes, it's hard to know where one starts and the other begins, but ADHD does not in and of itself include long-term (several days or more) depressions, and it certainly does not include the hypomania or manias that accompany most bipolar spectrum disorders. The two are quite different. Obviously, psychiatric disorders are so complex and poorly understood (just like the domain in which they reside, the mind/brain!) that we aren't yet able to identify etiology, correlations, or the basis for symptomatic overlap (whether it's etiological or nosological). But, suffice it to say, ADHD, Asperger's, mood disorders, and anxiety disorders are distinct disorders with distinct symptom sets. Anxiety is a different physiological and psychological experience than depression, which is a different physiological and psychological experience than ADHD, etc. They might all commonly occur together, but that's likely a result of the fact we don't understand their causes to begin with.

If we were to group these four disorders, mood and anxiety disorders are probably the most similar (disorders of emotion), versus the developmental or "experiential" disorders like ASDs, ADHD, and PDDs.

I'm blunt and I know it! I think partly its due to ADHD and a lack of filtering between thoughts and speech. The more stressed/anxious/excited I am - the less ability I have to filter what I'm saying.
Also partly due to Aspergers, I tend to assume other people think the same as me so I dont expect them to misunderstand or be offended.
My partner tells me I only take one foot out so I can wedge the other one in!

I guess I automatically assume people think differently than me, which is why I'm usually ready to pounce or am quickly defensive. :confused:

I've never heard that before and I completely disagree. Aspie's are fully aware they are judged harshly by others and it causes no end of distress. ADHD and ASD are both hidden disorders.

I don't think it's been scientifically studied; it's just been my observation (and there have been quite a few threads about this on wrongplanet.net) that many Aspies think they have social phobia when it's a different syndrome and may just be the natural anxiety they feel as a result of their social skills deficits, versus the intense and overarching, highly pervasive fear of negative evaluation. I'm not saying at all that Aspies aren't aware of other people's judgments, but that this often is not the main motivation behind their social anxieties. You could say, if it walks and talks like a duck... but I don't think it does in many cases, and I believe that the most important and driving factors in psychology is the cause and the experience, not the terminology or nosology used to describe the syndrome.

Ok I have to say something about theory of mind because it's not the be-all and end-all of ASD.
Aspie TOM is impaired in the sense that NT's intuitively have it as part of their normal development, Aspie's have to actively learn it through ours (and vicarious) experiences.

That is my understanding of ToM in ASDs, too.

Also, and importantly, Aspies are hyper-sensitive! We absorb other people's emotions and moods like sponges, but we may not be able to name or explain them. This is a HUGE reason why we avoid people and situations.
I avoid emotional people because they are too distressing for me, not because I don't care or I can't tell they're upset. I know they're upset and I can link action and reaction, cause and effect. What I don't intuitively know is their personal take on the situation. I can only imagine how I would react and then remind myself that other people dont react like me, so I estimate from that baseline.

I have this problem, too. I'm very much affected by other people's moods and emotions. For instance, I once went to dinner with a friend and he asked one of the waitresses for her number. She obliged and he called her later that week. Well, some random person answered; she'd given him a fake number. We went back there because, depending on her reaction when she saw him, he was considering asking her again for her number. When she saw us, she had an awful facial expression--a half-smirk, half-look of disgust. Instantly, I could tell my friend felt somewhat dejected, but I literally felt his pain and probably a lot more. Maybe I just invented that, too, because of my propensity for experiencing (and savoring) deep emotions (not too common for a guy, I know, but no one said I was normal), but I deeply felt the rejection he'd felt and talked about it more than he did. I was outraged and wanted to confront the ***** and give her a piece of my mind (which is ironic, because I have social anxiety and that probably wouldn't have worked too well). He actually had to calm me down. :p

This manifests nearly every day at home. My mom is somewhat moody. When she's in a bad mood, my mood tends to take on the characteristics of hers, and then I get annoyed and resentful that she was in that mood to begin with. Moods almost feel contagious to me! I've heard, again, that this isn't uncommon in ADHD, either, and certainly there's the concept of the highly sensitive person (HSP) that I'm not sure if I subscribe to, but which would explain some of my issues.

Believe me, Aspies do experience classic social anxiety.

I'm definitely not saying that they don't. I'm saying that sometimes, based on my observation and reading threads about this specific topic, what an Aspie considers to be social anxiety is actually the reluctance and natural anxiety, if you will, about speaking and interacting because of their lack of confidence in their ability to do so. That would manifest in more of a general performance anxiety, similar to one I might experience if I were forced to take a test on something I hadn't studied for. Sure, the huge red "F" and the "rejection" I would feel would hurt, but mostly I'd be concerned about my knowledge on the subject material in the first place.

I'm sure many Aspies do experience bona fide social phobia, though, diagnosable per DSM-IV.

When we feel safe and happy and we have something to say - just you try and shut us up!

I think that's the operative part. I can talk a mile a minute about basically nothing. My parents can't get me to shut up sometimes. I'll be pointing everything I see out impulsively, and jumping from topic to topic, driving anyone and everyone within earshot crazy. This happened on vacation so often and so severely that my parents vowed never to travel with me again. And I'm 21 years old. :confused:

This is different to ASD.
Aspie routine just has to be done! It's not an internal thought process. It's the inability to disconnect from the routine until it has been followed through in its entirety. It is the following of the process in the right way that is soothing. It's a very difficult concept to explain.
Interrupting a routine early increases anxiety, but not via conscious thoughts. I don't have negative self-talk, anxiety for me is a physical sensation.
Routines keep me calm, bring my anxiety below threshold. They're like taking aspirin for a headache.
If I'm ok I can disrupt a routine and get away with feeling temporarily uncomfortable. If I'm stressed and a routine is disrupted - RUN FOR COVER!!! I have no tolerance and no control over the reaction, I have a meltdown.
Routines control the anxiety level to an extent, they're a coping mechanism.

That's really interesting, actually. So my routines and compulsions aren't similar to those experienced by Aspies? Another one I had that seemed very routinized and Aspie-like was my need to be home as soon as possible after school, but what indicates to me that it's more OCD than ASD is that I had the "or else..." anxious dread that typically accompanies obsessions and compulsions.

Sensory issues are a huge part of ASD. I would venture to say they are one of the biggest factors and triggers.
Aspies are hyper-sensitive, too much info coming in from all the senses. If the intensity increases in any way there's just no leeway to cope with it.

I know sensory issues are also fairly common in ADHD, although probably less severely. I'm not sure I have too many sensory issues, in general, but I don't have much to compare it with. My issues have mostly been tactile, but they've occasionally crossed the threshold into auditory. I get this horrible, gut-wrenching anxiety spike and nails-on-a-chalkboard, "scratchy", inexplicable "feeling" in my mind if I feel, or even imagine, certain textures with my hands or feet. I used to (for a few years in late childhood/early adolescence) need to cover one ear when shouting because I couldn't stand the loud and experientially scratchy noise of my own voice. When I was really little, I had the craziest OCD-and-sensory combination obsession/compulsion where I'd have to feel the wall textures in any room I entered. I can't for the life of me remember what I'd "do" with the information I "collected"--probably nothing; it was probably very OCD in its importance.

FWIW, my sister who has no diagnosed mental issues, had idiopathic toe-walking, which could have been a manifestation of sensory integration dysfunction. She said she liked how it felt better, but she's always been very private and probably never went into any more detail than that.

Very true - and yes and no!
The Aspie routines are generally unconscious, keeping everything the same is the simplest way of protecting your anxiety level. But it's not done consciously and it doesnt particularly involve productive organisation!
Quite often I can get so lost in perfecting the details that I forget all about the bigger picture - can't see the forest for the trees.

I can get lost in the details, too. I do that all the time. Probably my OCD.

But, the ways in which I can identify with you lot give me the nagging suspicion that perhaps I have some very minor degree of autistic tendencies. It's hard to imagine all of my eccentricity can be explained away with OCD and ADHD (I also have SAD and probably GAD, and maybe bipolar 2, but the latter is very uncertain).

fracturedstory
01-06-11, 05:22 AM
So, were you doing laundry every day? I can understand how that would get tiresome. It almost sounds like a common sense "glitch" I'd experience, too.

Umm no, I didn't shower everyday. I started to shower every other day because of water restrictions but then it became part of my routine.

I also make mistakes when cooking with someone. If not given step by step instructions, well, dinner's gonna taste interesting.


I don't feel like quoting people but on the similarities on ASD and ADHD (not so sure about Bipolar). Both disorders have an under connectivity in the frontal lobes and a dysfunction in the limbic system. Possibly the temporal lobes too because of similar sensory issues. But there's worse motor skills and involuntary movements in autism. Well there is stimming but the more severe you get the less you can control it...as I have recently found out.

I don't know what it's like for AS but I only have a little bit of social anxiety. I don't really care about talking to people, I just don't want to be overloaded by noise and light and crowds. When I read about peoples social dilemmas I'm glad that I don't have to deal with that yet.

Tomboy
01-06-11, 10:43 AM
Nova2012: What does ENFP stand for?

nova2012
01-06-11, 01:30 PM
Nova2012: What does ENFP stand for?

Extroverted Intuitive Feeling Perceptive--it's a Myers-Briggs personality type. You can read up about it and even take a test yourself to see where you stand. I put more stock in it than, say, astrology, but I'm not delusional enough to think that it's the be all, end all of personality. The mind is far too complex to be reduced to an acronym.

roseblood
01-06-11, 05:44 PM
I'm very strict on myself. Since I write everything down in a to-do list it's imperative that I follow it. It becomes a part of my routine and if I break it something similar to a meltdown around too loud sounds/ too bright lights or my usual aversion to change takes place.
That makes sense. Rigid adherence to nonfunctional routines or rituals is not one of the symptoms I recognise in myself, and when they happen to involve the kinds of things you learn in cognitive behavioural therapy I'd think it's one that could come in very handy.

The closest I come is having an extremely anxious reaction to the thought of sudden largescale changes to plan, and so needing to be given considerable notice so I can mentally prepare. I have also had many anxious obsessions and rituals but they're of the OCD type, they're not the same. I do have a few often time-consuming routines I have to follow each day, but their function is very clear, they result from trying not to miss out on any news or new things to read on my special interests.

Fortune
01-06-11, 05:55 PM
Are they really nonfunctional or do they simply appear to be nonfunctional?

roseblood
01-06-11, 08:04 PM
You don't have experience with such people?? Well you've just spoken to one now, hi hows it going??

I know several people with both (both personally and online, I also tend to usually associate with people who have both) and it has been proven time and time again that a person can have both conditions and they function quiet well.

It does depend on the severity of either on both in some cases, as I've mentioned most AS with ADHD do seem to be a little bit better socially, most ADDers tend to be better than Aspies in the social sense normally anyway and I guess being an Aspie with ADD/ADHD thrown in for good measure usually balances things out a little in some respects.

1: I don't obsess over stuff the same way as someone with straight AS

2: I have better social awareness than someone with straight AS (though I am still socially impaired)

3: I am able to pick up on obviously and blantant social cues where as some straight AS people have difficulty.

4: I am able to see different sides to a story, theory etc and people usually have more success in getting me to see different sides to things whereas some straight AS people have difficulty in this area.

What I've just mentioned about is about my own case and every AS with ADD/ADHD will be very different to the next person.

Selena:)

All of your points are true for me too, I think. As I said in my last post, I don't relate to nonfunctional routines and rituals, OCD aside. I am obsessive in several other ways, but not that one.

My social skills problems are definitely on the milder end of the spectrum these days. People who happen to be interested in discussing some of the topics I've ever amassed vast amounts of information and ideas about, I can converse with without feeling I'm a source of excessive bemusement or discomfort. With everyone else, I just don't talk much, and that's OK. I'm still not great at small talk or quickly thinking of appropriate responses to certain things, and I avoid banter because it can go wrong for me, but I get along with most people without serious problems.

I get called 'innocent' by people who don't know my more serious, sometimes bitter side and even occasionally by people who do, so people seem to sense that I'm essentially harmless, which probably helps me get away with slip-ups that Aspies who present differently might not. Maybe the by turns dreamy and scatty absentness makes ADDers seem less intense and so less threatening than many straight Aspies. I don't get accused of appearing to harshly and indiscriminantly judge everything around me, for example, as I notice very little of what's around me in the first place. The vividness of my inner world is too blinding.

bumpey
01-06-11, 10:38 PM
things making lots of sense here, i'm sociable, by mouth wont stop, want to talk loads, problem is no one can keep up with how random i am, and my interestes bore people sensles, i am learning to pick up now i'm aware of whaat i'm doin, but i waist time watching what i'm doing.

i used to just put this down to just being retarded, still do now, waiting in vain for meds to take effect

roseblood
01-08-11, 05:10 PM
I don't think it's been scientifically studied; it's just been my observation (and there have been quite a few threads about this on wrongplanet.net) that many Aspies think they have social phobia when it's a different syndrome and may just be the natural anxiety they feel as a result of their social skills deficits, versus the intense and overarching, highly pervasive fear of negative evaluation. I'm not saying at all that Aspies aren't aware of other people's judgments, but that this often is not the main motivation behind their social anxieties. You could say, if it walks and talks like a duck... but I don't think it does in many cases, and I believe that the most important and driving factors in psychology is the cause and the experience, not the terminology or nosology used to describe the syndrome.
Do you mean that people with social phobia who aren't autistic fear negative evaluation for reasons other than believing that their behaviour is likely to be seen as strange or inappropriate? What do you think causes social anxiety if not a lack or perceived lack of social desirability? As a teenager I met the criteria not only for Social Phobia but I went on to meet it for Avoidant Personality Disorder, undiagnosed. I no longer meet the criteria for either. There was another girl at my school who was painfully shy, and like me had long periods with no friends.

However, it was obvious to everyone that this was because of her shyness and inhibition. There was nothing else remarkable about her. People found her shyness endearing, as she'd smile and look away a lot and walk around hunched over, and I know she wanted to be sociable because she told me once, the only time I ever saw her open up. She just couldn't maintain friendships because she spoke as little as possible and was visibly uncomfortable in anyone's company at all, even mine - whereas I felt fairly relaxed around her because I took her shyness of me to be a sign of acceptance, weirdly, and because I myself never saw anyone as weirder than I was so I assumed she must see herself as the weird one all the time too. Looking back I'm not sure it always works like that.

By contrast, I was the resident alien. I'm not how many other students even noticed that I was shy, because instead of nervous smiles my anxiety at its worst manifested as a frozen facial expression and robotic movement. I felt compelled to hide signs of emotion, as they felt embarrassing. Around people I was more confident with, I could act more normally and even have fun but I still judged myself all the time, tried to work out exactly what the rules for being normal were, and did a lot of conscious and unconscious role playing of someone else, either the person I was with or a person I thought might be acceptable to them. Apparently that last thing is common in girls with ASDs - I gained acceptance well in this way when younger because I played a very simple two-dimensional role that happened to work for that age group, which stopped working as everyone approached puberty and became more complex people and saw through it. The social anxiety came about when I realised I had no plan B.

Basically, she had the sense or instinct to manifest hers in socially acceptable ways even when extremely anxious, and she wasn't seen as strange. Her behaviour and apparent anxiety level also seemed much more consistent than mine, mine was very context-dependent and hard for even me to work out now, for example I would quite happily raise my hand to volunteer my thoughts or answers to teachers in class, in front of a whole group of people who would make me panic and freeze up if they spoke to me. A lot of teens without social phobia avoid doing that, how come it didn't bother me? I wonder if she had SAD alone, triggered by something else, and I had SAD caused by living with AS.

crazycat1990
01-08-11, 06:38 PM
As others have said, having both AS and ADHD can create a balance with the two.

I have both, and find I'm not as extreme as other AS people but also compared to other ADHD people. My AS was more problem-causing during infant school (aged 4-7) and it hid the hyper/impulsive ADHD symptoms. But the criteria for ADHD says symptoms must be present before age 7! I'm actually awaiting an official diagnosis at Maudsley, it'll be interesting to see what they make of it. I definitely have the combined type symptoms, I'm certain I'm not inattentive, but with the AS masking the hyper-impulsive symptoms before age 7? I think the problems the AS caused were so bad at that age were because I'd started school and took a long time compared to others to get into the swing of things, adapt to changes, make friends etc. By the time I was finishing infant school/starting junior school, I had less anxiety so my ADHD came out of it's shell, is a good way to put it :p

daveddd
01-08-11, 09:04 PM
nova is right on the social anxiety point

for a true dx of social phobia , the anxiety must be viewed as irrational by the sufferer

the lack of social skills had by an autistic person, causing them to fear social situations does not technically merit a true diagnosis of social phobia

Scooter77
01-08-11, 09:22 PM
Very true - but for high-functioning/aspies, fearing social situations often develops into social anxiety.
For me, I'm very, very aware that others think I'm a bit odd and that I tend to get things wrong. Over time I began to expect to get it wrong and to be perceived as weird, and the outcomes of that.

Social anxiety was what pushed me to the Dr in the first place, except I went in saying - 'I'm paranoid people are looking at me cos I'm doing something wrong, I know it's ridiculous, but I just cant help it....'
That got me dx'd SA, Aspie dx took another 2 years...

daveddd
01-08-11, 09:25 PM
Very true - but for high-functioning/aspies, fearing social situations often develops into social anxiety.
For me, I'm very, very aware that others think I'm a bit odd and that I tend to get things wrong. Over time I began to expect to get it wrong and to be perceived as weird, and the outcomes of that.

Social anxiety was what pushed me to the Dr in the first place, except I went in saying - 'I'm paranoid people are looking at me cos I'm doing something wrong, I know it's ridiculous, but I just cant help it....'
That got me dx'd SA, Aspie dx took another 2 years...

ok, out of curiosity , since your anxiety is based off good reason, will an ssri help it

Fortune
01-08-11, 09:27 PM
I thought I had social anxiety until I realized I didn't actually have anxiety about social situations like that described in social anxiety, and that my actual anxieties centered around practical concerns. Also, the lack of the majority of symptoms.

My discomfort around people is more like other issues like, say in a crowded supermarket, I can't predict where people will move, especially when they're in my personal space, and I'm not always certain precisely where I am relative to them so avoiding them becomes trickier when they do move. This makes me stressed out and overloaded, and I am more angry and frustrated trying to navigate this mess than anything.

Social occasions are exhausting. I'm reluctant to go to parties because as the number of people in any given conversation increase, the harder it is for me to participate in conversations - plus conversations tend to constantly steer into topics I am not interested in and can't really talk about (I can converse about things I'm not interested in if I do know about them, although I do not love it in the least). And having to pay attention to people is just plain tiring, and I'll end the night feeling burnt out, no matter how much fun I may have had.

And I mean stuff like this I interpreted as social anxiety, and I do have anxiety about the brownian motion of human bodies in supermarkets or dealing with too many people in a single night. The actual thought of being around people doesn't bother me, although the fact that I will almost certainly give a bad impression to at least some people I don't already know does.

So yeah, that was a bit of a revelation. Not that I don't have anxiety about social situations or being around people, but the source of that anxiety.

Scooter77
01-08-11, 11:59 PM
ok, out of curiosity , since your anxiety is based off good reason, will an ssri help it

Nope :-)
Anti-depressants, anti-anxieties and anti-psychotics don't agree with my brain. They make me depressed/anxious/angry.
Strattera is the only one I can take, and I can't even take similar ones like Cymbalta. Fussy brain!

Actually it was the problems treating the anxiety that lead my Dr to look closer, discovering the underlying ADHD.

Now I take Concerta and Strattera, but the strattera manages depression, mood and gives me a clear head. It's the concerta that manages the anxiety along with the ADHD.

My Dr complains that I have an expensive brain LOL!

nova2012
01-09-11, 02:59 AM
Very true - but for high-functioning/aspies, fearing social situations often develops into social anxiety.
For me, I'm very, very aware that others think I'm a bit odd and that I tend to get things wrong. Over time I began to expect to get it wrong and to be perceived as weird, and the outcomes of that.

Social anxiety was what pushed me to the Dr in the first place, except I went in saying - 'I'm paranoid people are looking at me cos I'm doing something wrong, I know it's ridiculous, but I just cant help it....'
That got me dx'd SA, Aspie dx took another 2 years...

I still think there is a manifest and fundamental difference, in most cases, between the social phobia experienced by ADHDers and NTs, and that experienced by Aspies and autists. At the risk of sounding brash, which is certainly not my intention, I simply don't think most (or many, if that sounds less dangerously generalized) Aspies and autists care enough about other people's perceptions of them to experience true social phobia.

The fact that your doctor diagnosed you with social phobia based on telling him that one symptom does not speak very well to his competence. Neither does missing your AS diagnosis for two years after that. When he finally dx'd you with AS, he should have retracted the social phobia diagnosis, or asked enough follow-up questions to discern, at that point with that new diagnosis and knowledge, whether you had true social phobia.

One of the obvious, and fundamental, issues with psychiatry is that it's largely based on self-reported symptoms, since there's often no other way to communicate problems, especially with an internalizing condition like depression, social phobia, or panic disorder (among many others). A doctor's schematic understanding of social phobia, since he likely doesn't have it, is likely best understood from the perspective of an NT. We cannot truly comprehend or internalize those conditions that we do not have, of course, but one like Asperger's or ADHD is even harder to understand. Most everyone can, at one time or another, relate to some of the experience of depression or, particularly, anxiety. But, few can relate to the inner experience of the autist or the ADHDer, conditions which confer totally different neurologies and "worlds," so to speak. Thus, your doctor likely, and mistakenly, assumed you were an NT, and there are only two conditions, really, that match your symptomatic statement: social phobia or Asperger's. He went with the first, failing to investigate any further. This is irresponsible medicine; unfortunately, it happens all the time.

I thought I had social anxiety until I realized I didn't actually have anxiety about social situations like that described in social anxiety, and that my actual anxieties centered around practical concerns. Also, the lack of the majority of symptoms.

My discomfort around people is more like other issues like, say in a crowded supermarket, I can't predict where people will move, especially when they're in my personal space, and I'm not always certain precisely where I am relative to them so avoiding them becomes trickier when they do move. This makes me stressed out and overloaded, and I am more angry and frustrated trying to navigate this mess than anything.

Social occasions are exhausting. I'm reluctant to go to parties because as the number of people in any given conversation increase, the harder it is for me to participate in conversations - plus conversations tend to constantly steer into topics I am not interested in and can't really talk about (I can converse about things I'm not interested in if I do know about them, although I do not love it in the least). And having to pay attention to people is just plain tiring, and I'll end the night feeling burnt out, no matter how much fun I may have had.

And I mean stuff like this I interpreted as social anxiety, and I do have anxiety about the brownian motion of human bodies in supermarkets or dealing with too many people in a single night. The actual thought of being around people doesn't bother me, although the fact that I will almost certainly give a bad impression to at least some people I don't already know does.

So yeah, that was a bit of a revelation. Not that I don't have anxiety about social situations or being around people, but the source of that anxiety.

Social situations can be exhausting to me, too, largely because of being overstimulated by my ADHD and, more so, being overwhelmed by my social anxiety and feeling of, almost, "depression," for lack of a better word, when in social situations. There is some evidence that true social phobia is etiologically related to bipolar disorder, which might explain this altered pseudo-mood state present in social phobia.

Nope :-)
Anti-depressants, anti-anxieties and anti-psychotics don't agree with my brain. They make me depressed/anxious/angry.
Strattera is the only one I can take, and I can't even take similar ones like Cymbalta. Fussy brain!

Actually it was the problems treating the anxiety that lead my Dr to look closer, discovering the underlying ADHD.

Now I take Concerta and Strattera, but the strattera manages depression, mood and gives me a clear head. It's the concerta that manages the anxiety along with the ADHD.

My Dr complains that I have an expensive brain LOL!

What kind of anxiolytics have you taken that don't agree with your brain? Benzos agree with pretty much everyone's brain. Which anti-psychotics have you taken that didn't agree with you? There are certain ones that are particularly finicky. But I know APs are commonly used to control stimming and other "unwanted" ASD behaviors, as well as OCD, and of course psychotic disorders and bipolar spectrum disorders.

The A/Ds making you angry, anxious, and more depressed almost indicates some level of bipolarity present. Strattera acts as a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, which may explain why it helps a bit with your depression (which may be dopamine and norepinephrine-based, at least using the overly simplistic monoamine deficiency hypothesis of depression), and of course your ADHD.

fracturedstory
01-09-11, 04:28 AM
People on the autistic spectrum may be sensitive to medication and certain food/drink.

My SSRI's worked pretty fast but they made my sensory issues worse. After I kind of lost control during strobe lights and my favorite band was on stage I went off them. I hope they didn't make me epileptic.

I got nearly every severe side effect from Ritalin. So much that I didn't even care about the appetite suppression, hair loss and tics.

I can't drink coffee, energy drinks, orange juice and some hard liquor without having an adverse reaction. Last time I drank tea I felt drunk.
I react badly to sugar and rich food too. I have to have a fairly basic and boring diet.

There are some on the spectrum that medications do diddly squat too. Er, they have little effect. High drug threshold I think they call it.

My anxiety has a lot to do with sensory issues and having unknown things happen. I'm scared of crossing roads because of a poor spatial ability and not knowing how fast or how far away a car is. I guess it's less social anxiety because I'm usually too in my mind to think of that stuff.

Scooter77
01-09-11, 05:17 AM
[quote=nova2012;998564]I still think there is a manifest and fundamental difference, in most cases, between the social phobia experienced by ADHDers and NTs, and that experienced by Aspies and autists. At the risk of sounding brash, which is certainly not my intention, I simply don't think most (or many, if that sounds less dangerously generalized) Aspies and autists care enough about other people's perceptions of them to experience true social phobia.

I cant speak for autistics, but in my experience as an Aspie and the other Aspies I know - we all care very much what others think of us, just because we can't express our feelings doesnt mean we dont have them. How would you know what an Aspie feels if you're not one?

The fact that your doctor diagnosed you with social phobia based on telling him that one symptom does not speak very well to his competence. Neither does missing your AS diagnosis for two years after that. When he finally dx'd you with AS, he should have retracted the social phobia diagnosis, or asked enough follow-up questions to discern, at that point with that new diagnosis and knowledge, whether you had true social phobia.

I'm going to assume that you dont mean this to sound quite as offensive as it reads. I abbreviated my psychiatric history to fit in a thread, I was not dx'd from one symptom. And it's very difficult to get an ASD dx as an adult female - my psychiatrist (who is very good) did not 'miss' the dx, he is not an autism specialist. After 2 years my 'very good' psychiatrist strongly recommended I see an autism specialist whom dx'd Aspergers. After receiving the ASD dx from a specialist, my psych then reassessed my other dx's which were/are still valid. Including 'true' social phobia. Thanks for your insight, but I personally prefer the advice of the medically trained psychiatrist who has been helpfully treating me for the past few years....

One of the obvious, and fundamental, issues with psychiatry is that it's largely based on self-reported symptoms, since there's often no other way to communicate problems, especially with an internalizing condition like depression, social phobia, or panic disorder (among many others). A doctor's schematic understanding of social phobia, since he likely doesn't have it, is likely best understood from the perspective of an NT. We cannot truly comprehend or internalize those conditions that we do not have, of course, but one like Asperger's or ADHD is even harder to understand. Most everyone can, at one time or another, relate to some of the experience of depression or, particularly, anxiety. But, few can relate to the inner experience of the autist or the ADHDer, conditions which confer totally different neurologies and "worlds," so to speak. Thus, your doctor likely, and mistakenly, assumed you were an NT, and there are only two conditions, really, that match your symptomatic statement: social phobia or Asperger's. He went with the first, failing to investigate any further. This is irresponsible medicine; unfortunately, it happens all the time.

This is incredibly judgemental, offensive and arrogant. You dont know me or my Doctor.
Why do you think you are in a position to judge what Aspies do or dont feel?
SA or ASD are not the only two options for such a statement, do you have any medical or psychological training, or is this just your unfounded opinion?

Social situations can be exhausting to me, too, largely because of being overstimulated by my ADHD and, more so, being overwhelmed by my social anxiety and feeling of, almost, "depression," for lack of a better word, when in social situations. There is some evidence that true social phobia is etiologically related to bipolar disorder, which might explain this altered pseudo-mood state present in social phobia.

Can you please provide this evidence?

What kind of anxiolytics have you taken that don't agree with your brain? Benzos agree with pretty much everyone's brain.

Says who? No one medication works for all people. And every brain is different.

The A/Ds making you angry, anxious, and more depressed almost indicates some level of bipolarity present.

No it doesnt. Like many other people, I don't respond well to Anti-depressants. A lot of people with bipolar also dont respond well to them.

Strattera acts as a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, which may explain why it helps a bit with your depression (which may be dopamine and norepinephrine-based, at least using the overly simplistic monoamine deficiency hypothesis of depression), and of course your ADHD.

Strattera is an anti-depressant, that's probably why it works on my depression. Depression is not always directly related to serotonin and considering I have ADHD it's not unwise to assume that it's more likely related to dopamine or nor-epinephrine.

Perhaps you should refrain from assuming what other people feel or judging those you have no experience with.

daveddd
01-09-11, 11:41 AM
scooter, i also forgot to mention that im sure people with adhd/as can have separate true social phobia

like myself, mine has nothing to do with being overwhelmed by lights or noises

nothing to do with fear of not being able to communicate properly

its irrational , ands its been around as long as my adhd, not because of it

the interesting thing ive been reading about social phobia(a brain abnormality in the amygdala ) is that it can cause us to miss social cues as well, do to the the fact that our brain is hyper vigilant (hope thats the right word) during interactions , so thats gotta be a kink in the dx process:confused:


and nova , isnt an "NT" with social phobia an oxymoron


social phobia never comes alone

Fortune
01-09-11, 01:45 PM
Yeah, social anxiety is diagnosed legitimately in people with AS. Yes there is overlap, but one does not rule out the other.

nova2012
01-09-11, 01:46 PM
Scooter, I don't mean to offend, but it would be a lot easier to respond to you if you quoted normally. By "normally," I mean adding tags around parts of people's posts that you want to quote, and then typing your response. It adds a lot of extra, unnecessary work for the person replying if they have to go back and fix the formatting in replying to you.

I cant speak for autistics, but in my experience as an Aspie and the other Aspies I know - we all care very much what others think of us, just because we can't express our feelings doesnt mean we dont have them. How would you know what an Aspie feels if you're not one?

Again, as I mentioned before, I'm operating based on observations of and discussions with Aspies on forums and in person. I'm not an Aspie, but that doesn't mean I haven't benefited from my experience with them, and my conclusions based on that experience. I guess my assertion wasn't properly phrased. I know that, in general, most Aspies likely care about people's general perception of them as good or bad. But, that's distinctly different from being hypersensitive to and hypervigilant about the risk of being embarrassed, rejected, or humiliated in social situations, which is what social phobia is fundamentally about.

I'm going to assume that you dont mean this to sound quite as offensive as it reads. I abbreviated my psychiatric history to fit in a thread, I was not dx'd from one symptom. And it's very difficult to get an ASD dx as an adult female - my psychiatrist (who is very good) did not 'miss' the dx, he is not an autism specialist. After 2 years my 'very good' psychiatrist strongly recommended I see an autism specialist whom dx'd Aspergers. After receiving the ASD dx from a specialist, my psych then reassessed my other dx's which were/are still valid. Including 'true' social phobia. Thanks for your insight, but I personally prefer the advice of the medically trained psychiatrist who has been helpfully treating me for the past few years....

How did he not "miss" the diagnosis, if by the definition of the word, he didn't catch it for two years? I'm sure you like your p-doc, but I would be very unhappy if I went two years without being properly diagnosed and having an explanation for my issues. It's good you're so grateful, though.

This is incredibly judgemental, offensive and arrogant. You dont know me or my Doctor.
Why do you think you are in a position to judge what Aspies do or dont feel?
SA or ASD are not the only two options for such a statement, do you have any medical or psychological training, or is this just your unfounded opinion?

If you doubt my conclusion, what are the other options, in your mind, if someone states they are "paranoid about people looking at them cause [they're] doing something wrong?" This is not psychosis, because it is due to a fear, not psychotic paranoia or delusions of persecution. There's really nothing else it can be, unless it's non-pathological, but then it probably wouldn't have bothered you as much as it did (and your later social phobia/Asperger's dx speak for themselves).

I'm not judging what Aspies feel, merely drawing conclusions based on my experience with Aspies and my intuition. This is not particularly scientific, and I never claimed otherwise. I'm sorry if I offended you.

Can you please provide this evidence?

One such study: http://www.jad-journal.com/article/S0165-0327(04)00443-4/abstract

Another: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11559864

Says who? No one medication works for all people. And every brain is different.

Says science, pretty much. Benzodiazepines' mechanism of action, increasing the "calming" neurotransmitter GABA to decrease neuronal excitability by its effects on neurona chloride channels. A very small minority of people actually become more stimulated by a benzodiazepine, and almost all of these have some form of bipolar disorder (but most bipolars can, and do, take benzos).

No it doesnt. Like many other people, I don't respond well to Anti-depressants. A lot of people with bipolar also dont respond well to them.

That was my point: people with bipolar spectrum disorders don't respond well to them. Garden-variety melancholic depressives with no complications typically respond quite well, if not to one then to another. The more "complicated" the depression, the more likely there is some degree of bipolarity present. Bipolar is a spectrum, not a binary condition.

Strattera is an anti-depressant, that's probably why it works on my depression. Depression is not always directly related to serotonin and considering I have ADHD it's not unwise to assume that it's more likely related to dopamine or nor-epinephrine.

As I mentioned, it's an NRI, so yes, it has anti-depressant qualities. I never said depression was directly related to serotonin. We don't really understand the etiology of depression, but certainly reducing it to something so simplistic is ludicrous. Many depressive episodes (mostly atypical/bipolar) do appear to have dopaminergic and noradnergic-dysfunction manifestations, like very low energy, apathy, low mental activity, etc. Others, particularly melancholic depressions, do not have nearly as much of this.

Perhaps you should refrain from assuming what other people feel or judging those you have no experience with.

I don't think I was making any judgments, merely intellectual conclusions based on my experience with Aspies.

scooter, i also forgot to mention that im sure people with adhd/as can have separate true social phobia

its irrational , ands its been around as long as my adhd, not because of it

Overstimulation is irrational, too, in the purest sense. It is not a result of logic, it's a result of physiological disturbance.

I've had ADHD since birth, as we virtually all have (even if not symptomatologically diagnosable). Social phobia had an onset for me of around 13 years, which is about the average in the West. It's interesting, because in Japan, its onset is usually significantly later, in the late teens or early 20s. This seems to point to some cultural/sociological component of the disorder in triggering its onset. There have also been some interesting articles with relation to the effects of culture on the onset of mental illnesses as severe as schizophrenia.

the interesting thing ive been reading about social phobia(a brain abnormality in the amygdala ) is that it can cause us to miss social cues as well, do to the the fact that our brain is hyper vigilant (hope thats the right word) during interactions , so thats gotta be a kink in the dx process:confused:

On what basis have you concluded that social phobia represents an abnormality in the amygdala? Just because amygdala activation serves as a functional marker of social phobia severity does not mean that is where the original dysfunction lies. The amygdala is responsible for the processing of emotions activated by memories; in the face of a pervasive condition like social phobia, activation of the amygdala in the face of threatening social situations makes sense.

You do raise a very intriguing point, though: I wonder if this activation would occur in the majority of Aspies who think they have social phobia.

and nova , isnt an "NT" with social phobia an oxymoron

Not really, since we usually define NT to be anyone without ADHD or Asperger's. It's a colloquial (and relative) term, though, and many Aspies consider ADHDers NT.


social phobia never comes alone

Actually, that's not necessarily true. Over half do have other anxiety disorders or mood disorders, but some people just have social phobia.

daveddd
01-09-11, 01:50 PM
generalized or situational? for coming alone?

daveddd
01-09-11, 01:53 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21203551

another interesting one non related
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9858079


overstimulation is a reasonable reason to not want to go in public no irrational

nova2012
01-09-11, 02:01 PM
generalized or situational? for coming alone?

Both.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21203551

Interesting study, but it doesn't implicate just the amygdala; that may just be the component that serves as the liaison between the others in and manifests these negative emotions in social situations. It actually implies that other structures like the orbitofrontal cortex and the visual cortcies are responsible for a dysregulation of the amygdala. It's implausible that a dysfunction of such an all-pervasive disorder would lie only in the amygdala.

another interesting one non related
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9858079

I've read that one and it's interesting, indeed. Thanks for posting.

overstimulation is a reasonable reason to not want to go in public no irrational

I'm not saying that the reason is irrational, but the underlying cause is.

daveddd
01-09-11, 02:01 PM
depression is tricky , lamictal acts on glutamate , yet has been proven to help depression

nova2012
01-09-11, 02:04 PM
depression is tricky , lamictal acts on glutamate , yet has been proven to help depression

No one really knows how lamotrigine works, but it certainly doesn't act on any neurotransmitters itself. It may act on sodium ion channels, which in turn better regulates neurotransmitters like glutamate and aspartate.

daveddd
01-09-11, 02:06 PM
whatever it does lamictal has decreased my depressive episodes dramatically

nova2012
01-09-11, 02:07 PM
whatever it does lamictal has decreased my depressive episodes dramatically

That's great. It is a wonder-drug for many people.

daveddd
01-09-11, 02:07 PM
oh and my social phobia was approximately 13 as well


after a well adjusted and friend filled youth

nova2012
01-09-11, 02:26 PM
oh and my social phobia was approximately 13 as well


after a well adjusted and friend filled youth

My youth wasn't particularly friend-filled, but it was fairly well-adjusted. I never really had many friends, although I've always been hopelessly extroverted.

daveddd
01-09-11, 02:28 PM
i was more stating that to show it wasnt related to inability to make friends or socialize

fracturedstory
01-09-11, 08:49 PM
It's a colloquial (and relative) term, though, and many Aspies consider ADHDers NT.

Damn straight. Though the more socially successful you are the more NT you are.
I like to give my own meaning to words.

Also, you might not wanna tell people what disorder they have. I get p***d off when people say I have OCD and maybe Scooter feels the same way by you saying they have Bipolar.

roseblood
01-12-11, 05:48 PM
Are they really nonfunctional or do they simply appear to be nonfunctional?
Nonfunctional in the sense that the person adhering to them claims that they make them feel better directly, as opposed to making them feel better indirectly by producing a desired outcome.

Fortune
01-12-11, 06:02 PM
Nonfunctional in the sense that the person adhering to them claims that they make them feel better directly, as opposed to making them feel better indirectly by producing a desired outcome.

Ah, so examples:

I hate turning my monitor off when I go to bed, so I open my browser to a page with a dark background to minimize light instead.

I always go to a specific page rather than any dark page

The page background was changed to lighter colors, I still only go to that page despite the fact it doesn't even serve the practical purpose I need.

These qualify? Or did I misunderstand?

roseblood
01-14-11, 06:46 PM
Ah, so examples:

I hate turning my monitor off when I go to bed, so I open my browser to a page with a dark background to minimize light instead.

I always go to a specific page rather than any dark page

The page background was changed to lighter colors, I still only go to that page despite the fact it doesn't even serve the practical purpose I need.

These qualify? Or did I misunderstand?
Yes, I would class those as nonfunctional. I don't know exactly how doctors define it, but that's how I've always interpreted it, and it seems to be what people talk about when they report their manifestations of this symptom.

A very common example is wanting to sit in the same place in a room every time, and not because it's more convenient or comfortable than the other places, just because the other places aren't where you're used to sitting.

Fortune
01-14-11, 07:26 PM
Yes, I would class those as nonfunctional. I don't know exactly how doctors define it, but that's how I've always interpreted it, and it seems to be what people talk about when they report their manifestations of this symptom.

I also need to have my browser windows opened exactly the same way with tabs in the same position every time. When Firefox changed the way tabs worked, it totally messed me up for weeks.

A very common example is wanting to sit in the same place in a room every time, and not because it's more convenient or comfortable than the other places, just because the other places aren't where you're used to sitting.

I am like this in some places, but not all. A few houses back I lived in a household with several other people, and not only did I prefer to sit in a particular chair in the living room, I got annoyed with other people who sat in it whether or not I wanted to use it. So yeah. I've done lots of things like this, really.

Thanks.

bumpey
01-14-11, 08:00 PM
I'm the only 1 with adhd in my aspie group, i resent it, think they accept it, some find it amusing, hopfuly meds will lessen the effect now, but its bizzare and a pain with my ways, especialy around NTs, lots of things i do don't make sense, to myself especialy (more importantly), still trying to figure myself out. a total reasesment of my hobbies, interests and career, now i know what im dealing with. not unlike adhd by its self i think maybe, but then comorbids are common anyway.

doesnt matter what youv got, its knowing what youv got, just wish i could beleive that

Marspider
01-16-11, 01:51 PM
I'm articulate and can be a bit pedantic but I can shut up. I'm philosophically inclined but I'm not cold, I'm not Aspie and would like to get rid of my ADHD. I like chit chat :-)

What I've noticed about many who find ADHD an asset is that either the ADHD is not really terrible for the person or they consider ADHD being the cause of their creativity and taking away ADHD will take away the creativity. I feel I'm creative because I'm a creative person not because I have ADHD and have known ADHDers who are not creative, so taking away my ADHD I can see very little negative in.

fracturedstory
01-17-11, 03:19 AM
I'm creative because I hate people and rarely want to spend any time with them.

How's that for cold?

I don't really hate them, I just find social interaction confusing and overwhelming. So I have more time to spend on my drawing, reading and writing.
I get annoyed at people a lot and get into arguments with them a lot.