View Full Version : Let's Discuss This.


EshkaronsEngine
01-09-11, 02:39 PM
I admit I hardly know anything about personality disorders. Only this that I watched GIRL INTERRUPTED and so have rudimentary knowledge of borderline personality disorders. Also that when confronted with a person with a personality disorder there becomes an impasse in communication which is extremely frustrating.:(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09CwWhAz0dM

Abi
01-09-11, 03:03 PM
I don't know anyone formally diagnosed personally, but I have known a coupla people I suspect (yeh, yeh I know... laypeople should not be reading the DSM)

I find that I don't have the kind of empathy for people with personality disorders (well, the cluster B ones, don't have a problem with the cluster A and C)... as I have for people wth other forms of mental illness.

Winona's character in the movie was I think, a misdiagnosis. She was going through *something*, but it wasnt a pervasive Personality Disorder.

Now Angie's character was a whole different kettle of fish :)

Abi
01-09-11, 03:04 PM
Oh, and I identify very much with being "interrupted" ... those who have my email addie know this ;)

EshkaronsEngine
01-09-11, 03:45 PM
I don't know anyone formally diagnosed personally, but I have known a coupla people I suspect (yeh, yeh I know... laypeople should not be reading the DSM)

I find that I don't have the kind of empathy for people with personality disorders (well, the cluster B ones, don't have a problem with the cluster A and C)... as I have for people wth other forms of mental illness.


Can someone either provide a link or list the different characteristics of cluster A,B,C for personality disorders please. I haven't the foggiest:confused:

peripatetic
01-09-11, 10:37 PM
http://www.mhasp.org/help/personality_disorders.html

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/personality-disorders/DS00562/DSECTION=symptoms

hope that helps eshy:)

EshkaronsEngine
01-10-11, 01:11 AM
I have to admit that there were certain times in my life where I could have been considered to have bpd. I have made suicide attempts in the past and had trouble making relationships as I was very extreme in my good/evil view of the world. Thank god for medication is all I have to say.

Abi
01-10-11, 09:33 AM
For what it's worth, I've ideated suicide, have had extreme good/evil (mostly evil) views of the world - mostly still do... and continue to have trouble sustaining relationships.

IMO Depression and general emotional lability is the biggest part of it.

flashy100
01-15-11, 08:49 PM
Perhaps anyone knowledgeable about personality disorders can answer, but is there a difference between having a personality disorder and having many symptoms of a personality disorder that have resulted from years of accumulation of various factors? I don't know if that makes sense but let me explain...my mother has rather intense Narcissistic Personality Disorder. From my (basic) studies in psychology, it was my understanding that personality disorders are different from other mental diseases in that the person with the personality disorder does not realize or feel that anything is wrong with them. My mother demonstrates this perfectly, she thinks she is quite perfect and everyone else in the world is messed up. She clearly has a personality disorder. Me, however, I show almost every single symptom of Borderline personality disorder. However, I acknowledge and am very aware of all of them as being an error/shortcoming in my own judgement that I am working to fix, the results of years of growing up with my mother treating me the way she did. Is that the same thing as having a personality disorder?

ADDMagnet
01-15-11, 10:54 PM
Perhaps anyone knowledgeable about personality disorders can answer, but is there a difference between having a personality disorder and having many symptoms of a personality disorder that have resulted from years of accumulation of various factors? I don't know if that makes sense but let me explain...my mother has rather intense Narcissistic Personality Disorder. From my (basic) studies in psychology, it was my understanding that personality disorders are different from other mental diseases in that the person with the personality disorder does not realize or feel that anything is wrong with them. My mother demonstrates this perfectly, she thinks she is quite perfect and everyone else in the world is messed up. She clearly has a personality disorder. Me, however, I show almost every single symptom of Borderline personality disorder. However, I acknowledge and am very aware of all of them as being an error/shortcoming in my own judgement that I am working to fix, the results of years of growing up with my mother treating me the way she did. Is that the same thing as having a personality disorder?

Although I do not know enough about the other types of personality disorders to comment, I have learned a lot about borderline personality disorder, hereafter referred to as BPD. My husband was diagnosed with it in 2004 and my daughter and my sister were also diagnosed with it. There are many variations and levels of severity. It results from a combination of genetic predispositions or biological factors and environmental stressors or factors such as abuse, early parental loss or abandonment, etc. Those with untreated ADHD are at greater risk for developing the disorder.

Our doctor, who has heavily influenced and expanded my understanding of BPD, does not believe it is a personality disorder but rather a type of epileptic seizure of the limbic system of the brain (an area involving the emotions). Some of these physiological symptoms such as the mood instability, dysphoria, etc. can also contribute to serious psychological problems as well.

My daughter and sister are able to manage the disorder quite well with the proper medication, therapy and an awareness and understanding of their moods, that enable them to take the necessary precautions to eliminate or greatly reduce the anger, mood swings and dysphoria. My husband did well at first but was not willing to follow all of the doctor's treatment recommendations.

You may have a somewhat milder type of BPD or you could have learned poor coping strategies or behavior patterns from a dysfunctional parent or caretaker. If your mood changes dramatically for the worse with no apparent reason, it seems to me that would be an indication of some chemical problems in the brain.

BPD can be managed, much like diabetes, with the proper tools, knowledge and treatment.

nova2012
01-15-11, 11:20 PM
Perhaps anyone knowledgeable about personality disorders can answer, but is there a difference between having a personality disorder and having many symptoms of a personality disorder that have resulted from years of accumulation of various factors? I don't know if that makes sense but let me explain...my mother has rather intense Narcissistic Personality Disorder. From my (basic) studies in psychology, it was my understanding that personality disorders are different from other mental diseases in that the person with the personality disorder does not realize or feel that anything is wrong with them. My mother demonstrates this perfectly, she thinks she is quite perfect and everyone else in the world is messed up. She clearly has a personality disorder. Me, however, I show almost every single symptom of Borderline personality disorder. However, I acknowledge and am very aware of all of them as being an error/shortcoming in my own judgement that I am working to fix, the results of years of growing up with my mother treating me the way she did. Is that the same thing as having a personality disorder?

People with personality disorders can be as aware as they choose to be that they have a problem. Personality disorders are not at all like psychosis, in which the person does not know what is real and what isn't.

That being said, many people with personality disorders can know they have a "problem" but have absolutely zero interest in seeking treatment for it. This is particularly true for PDs like NPD, AsPD, schizoid PD, schizotypal PD, etc. Borderline PD sufferers often are desperate for a solution to their constant despair and emptiness, but they're very distrustful of authority figures and people who appear to be getting "too close" to them, and because of this, they often break off the therapeutic relationship or become defiant and refuse to follow the treatment protocol. For this reason, BPD sufferers have traditionally been psychiatry's least favorite patient, but that stigma is slowly dissipating with therapies like DBT, and anti-epileptics and anti-psychotics that can greatly improve the condition.

If you really do have every DSM symptom of BPD and it impairs your life significantly, you probably do have it, but only a professional can diagnose you. It's very easy for most of us to identify with personality disorders (because we all act certain ways sometimes, and many of us have poor behavioral patterns, which is distinguished from actual personality disorders), which is why it's so important that you do not self-diagnose with these. That can do far more harm than good.

JOHNCG
01-22-11, 10:46 AM
Perhaps anyone knowledgeable about personality disorders can answer, but is there a difference between having a personality disorder and having many symptoms of a personality disorder that have resulted from years of accumulation of various factors? I don't know if that makes sense but let me explain...my mother has rather intense Narcissistic Personality Disorder. From my (basic) studies in psychology, it was my understanding that personality disorders are different from other mental diseases in that the person with the personality disorder does not realize or feel that anything is wrong with them. My mother demonstrates this perfectly, she thinks she is quite perfect and everyone else in the world is messed up. She clearly has a personality disorder. Me, however, I show almost every single symptom of Borderline personality disorder. However, I acknowledge and am very aware of all of them as being an error/shortcoming in my own judgement that I am working to fix, the results of years of growing up with my mother treating me the way she did. Is that the same thing as having a personality disorder?

What defines personality disorders more than anything else is that the dysfunctional patterns of behaviour associated with them are RIGIDLY ENTRENCHED and INFLEXIBLE. Take Borderline Personality, for instance, which you believe you have. "Borderline" is associated with behaviours like "splitting" (cycles of idealisation and devaluation), "black and white" type (dichotomous) styles of thinking, dysregulated and labile "rollercoastering" emotions, self-harm and (cutting, for instance) suicidal ideation/behaviours, a history of chaotic and unstable interpersonal relationships, unstable and often rapidly changing mood, a disorganised, shifting and fractured sense of (personal) "identity" and self-image and so on.

If you find ,that DESPITE having , as you say, a clear and intelligent insight into what you believe are true "borderline" behaviours, that these behaviour simply DO NOT CHANGE despite your efforts over time to stop or curb them, and despite the fact that they are making your life miserabble, etc; THAT would be a good indicator that you do actually have Borderline Personality Disorder proper. It is the inability to change - the INFEXIBILTY and RIGIDITY of the problematic behaviours that is critical making for a true Personality Disorder.

Take self-harm, for example, a lot of women with Borderline Personality Disorder , as you probably know, cut themselves with knives/razors, etc.as a way of "treating" their Borderline symptoms. They often know exactly WHY they do this, that is, they can often have a clear psychological understanding and insight into their own "cutting" behaviours ,and also know that it, "cutting", is a bad thing , something they should very earnestly endeavour to to stop. Not all people, that is, with Personality Disorders (you mentioned your mother as an example) LACK INSIGHT into their condition, and the fact that it is their own behaviour that is abberant and dysfunctional ,and not that of everyone else in the world around them. It is when, DESPITE having this clear insight into their disorder and/or working hard - appling their best efforts- to change their problematic behaviours for the better; when DESPITE experiencing tremendous hardship and extreme personal distress as a result of these behaviours, that they( the pathological) behaviours DO NOT STOP -DO NOT CHANGE but continue on following the exact same FIXED, INFLEXIBLE patterns they always have , that you now KNOW what you are dealing with is a GENUINE (Borderline, in this example) Personality Disorder, as opposed what is merely the experience of some "symptoms" of "Borderline-type" or "Borderline-ish" behaviours and personality traits. Symptoms that vary in duration and intensity but do not cross the line into frank , INFLEXIBLE, ENTRENCHED behaviours of a Personality DISORDER proper.

There are different theories about what CAUSES Personality Disorders, but I tend to agree with those researchers who argue that they are essentially (and necessarily) BIOLOGICALLY based entities. That is, (again using Borderline Personality Disorder as an example), I think it is correct that the set of abnormal, dysfunctional behaviours that are associated with/define "Borderline" (like emotional instability, the phenomenon of "splitting", self-harm, micro-psychotic dissociative episodes and so on, mentioned above) are due to DEFECTS in certain structures and functions within the brain's LIMBIC system; a part of the brain that is known to be associated with the regulation (amongst other things) of our emotions It is because (and I am putting it very roughly and briefly here) the Limbic system is DEFECTIVE, and therefore not working properly - i.e; the way it should (and does) in 'normal" people -, that Borderline Personality Disorder comes into being.

To put it another way, a person may have been subjected to, say, episodes of violent sexual or physical abuse as a child, or been actively emotionaly abused and traumatised over many years by one or both of their parents. Childhood abuse is, as you know, well known to be associated with Borderline Personality Disorder; but my view is that if there is NOT the kind biological damage to the Limbic system I referred to above, a genuine Borderline Personality Disorder will not develop/ cannot exist. In short: "No (borderline-type ) damage to the Limbic system - No Borderline Personality Disorder. Full Stop." Well ,that, as I say, is the theory I agree with.

Just like -to give one more example- it seems to be (according to the evidence we have to date from many neuroimaging studies) certain DEFECTS in areas of the brain's Frontal lobes , like the Orbito-Frontal Cortex, for instance, that are the UNDERLYING CAUSE driving the various kinds of abnormal behaviours, attitudes and personality traits that ultimately define Antisocial/Psychopathic Personality Disorders, like, for example, AntiSocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) in the current DSM -IV or "Asocial Personality" in ICD-10. While factors like: poverty, low educational attainment, broken/dysfunctional families, parental abuse and neglect, parental psychiatric illnessincluding substance addictions (alcohol, nictine, etc), poor housing, large families, low SES, low IQ, are all known to be associated with an increased risk for Antisocial/Psychopathic Personality Disorders, my view, again, is that unless there is the kind of biological brain damage (to the frontal lobes, etc) known to be associated with antisocial and psychopathic behaviours, there can , ultimately, be no development of a genuine (Antisocial) PERSONALITY DISORDER.

So finally, getting back to your quesion... If you are wondering whether or not you actually have BPD, ask yourself, first and foremost: "are my dysfunctional (Borderline) behaviours RIGID and INFLEXIBLE. Do they PERSIST over time, DESPITE everything I might know about them and/or everything that I might do to try and stop them? Do they continue to distress me no mattter what I do to try and eliminate them. If the answer is "yes", then you may well have a true (Borderline) Personality Disorder.

Hope this makes sense, ( it's all a bit rushed) and is possibly of some help for you?? Good luck with your symptoms.

Regards,

John

JOHNCG
01-22-11, 11:31 PM
I thought I should mention that it is often correct, what you say about people with personality disorders not realising that the difficulties they experience ( in particular the tendancy they have to constantly "clash" and generate "friction" between themselves and others) is due to the fact that it is THEIR own behaviour, and not that of everyone else in the world about them that is the sourse of trouble. Often, as you say, people with personality disorders have no insight into WHY this happens; why it is that they seem to be constantly embroiled in hostilities and interpersonal disputes with other; unable to get along peacefully with the people in their world:their family members, neighbours, colleagues at work, and so on. They know perhaps that "there is something wrong" -they may notice that other people do not seem to experience the kind of constant difficulties or levels of distress that they do as they live their day-to -day lives. But they canot see how it is actually their own conduct that is dysfunctional.

What I was wanting to explain is that this is not alway the case and Borderline Personality is a good example. Because "Borderline behaviours are often dramatic and conspicuous: "cutting" , for example, suicide attempts/threats, extreme and rapid changes in mood, intense "rollercoastering" emotions, etc; they frequently draw themselves to the attention of medical and legal authorites, and to cut a long story short, they end up being told that they have "Borderline Personality Disorder" and advised to undergo treatment. Many diagnosed "Borderlines", that is, know from the therapy they are receiving that they have a personality disorder , that the behaviours the DSM iV sets out in defining Borderline Peronality Disorder are NOT normal , NOT the way that most people in the society around them behave. The cogitive therapy, say, they recieve often gives them a clear, rational understanding of WHY it is that they behave like they do and WHY , furthermore, these behaviours are dysfunctional and something they need to work to change. My point is that very often, and DISPITE the INTELLECTUAL insight a "Borderline" patient may have into their condition, the problematic behaviours DO NOT CHANGE. Despite receiving the very best psychological treatments and DESPITE the most assiduous efforts on the part of the patient themselves to correct their behaviours, NOTHING seems to make a differnce; and NOTHING CHANGES. The "Borderline" behaviours remain RIGIDLY and INFLEXIBLY entrenched. They seem "bullet-proof", with nothing having the power to "budge" them even an inch. The patient knows that "cutting", for instance, is a "Borderline" behaviour, and they know WHY they do it and WHY it should stop. But they simply CANNOT STOP doing it. Every strategy they try fails and the "cutting" continues to occur in the same stubborn pattern it always has.

Personality disorders are in short, NOTORIOUSLY DIFFICULT to treat; and regardless of whether the patient knows and accepts that they are afflicted ( formally diagnosed) with a genuine "personality disorder, or whether they have no insight of any kind into their dysfunctional behaviours ( in the way, for instance, you mention that your mother did not understand the fact that she was, obviously, a narcissist).

The point is - returning to your query-,that if you do ACTUALLY have Borderline Personality DISORDER, and not just the experience tending to behave (in what seem to you) to be "Borderline" -type ways you will know it because: 1. These behaviours (eg, the ones set out in the DSM iv for BPD, for instance) casuse you SIGNIFICANT DISTRESS and, 2. It seems that you CANNOT STOP THESE BEHAVIOUR despite knowing what they are and sincerely wishing to eliminate them. The "CANNOT STOP" is the best indicator you will have for the fact that what you have might actually be a true (Borderline) PERSONALITY DISORDER.

Hope this is of some use??

Regards,

John.