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-   -   Reducing amphetamine tolerance with Vitamin C at night (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16851)

Chadwick 04-16-05 01:00 PM

Reducing amphetamine tolerance with Vitamin C at night
 
Hello folks,

I've been doing a great deal of research on amphetamine tolerance and as yet have not been able to reach any definitive conclusions. I am thinking however, just theorizing, that having it in your system for a shorter period of time is better than having it in your system for a longer period of time. Those who dose to provide coverage 12 hours per day are better off than those who dose to provide 16 hours of coverage per day. And those who find efficacy or are willing to tolerate only 4-6 hours of coverage per day are probably least likely to experience significant tolerance. By coverage, I mean perceived therapeutic benefit unrelated to the actual concentration of amphetamine in the blood. It is well known that the average half-life of amphetamine is around 7 hours in the average individual. Studies show, and indeed even Shire's Adderrall research shows that an amphetamine dose is still present in the system in a significant amount 24 hours later, and that repeated, chronic use of amphetamine builds up to a certain steady state especially if one doses twice a day or uses XR versions of amphetamine.

Vitamin C is known to acidify the urine, and there is lots of supportive research that this speeds the excretion of amphetamine from the blood. The half-life of Vitamin C being relatively short (according to one common figure, only 30 minutes!) should mean that ingested nightly, you eliminate a greater percentage of amphetamine from your system, and give yourself a cleaner beginning when you wake up, by which time one would hope the Vitamin C has lost its potency! Your body has, as you slept, rid itself of more amphetamine, and thus more amphetamine tolerance, at least this is what the research would lead me to believe.

I have made far too many changes to my personal regimen recently and cannot personally attest to any of the above. I would however ask you folks for your theories and opinions on the previous paragraph (let's call it a thesis. ;) Because of the possible benefits of Vitamin C with regard to the above issue, and for good health in general, I have lately been ingesting 1 gram of Costco's Kirkland Signature Vitamin C, nightly, which is primarily ascorbic acid (if I recall correctly, I could be wrong here, I am not presently at my home). I have also, please scold me now for increasing my risk for insulin resistance and diabetes, been consuming 1 serving of orange juice nightly for urine acidifying reasons, and for the good nutrients in orange juice, primarily what I'm after is the potassium, which I find very hard to get the RDA of without consuming too many calories above maintenance. Does anyone know how to get lots of potassium in a healthy, non-toxic manner aside from OJ? Does OJ acidify the urine more or better than Vitamin C alone? If I could get the amphetamine clearing effect very well just from Vitamin C alone, I would gladly do just that and wean myself from orange juice.

I really have to wrap up this post now, I do have a few chores to take care of at my friend's house. Thank you folks for any theorizing and anecdotes you can provide.

Regards,

-Chad

aneededchange 04-16-05 01:10 PM

This was a very interesting read. Thanks for sharing the info!

- Ane


jazzper 04-16-05 07:58 PM

Actually Chadwick,

If acidifying your urine is what you are trying to do, OJ won't do it. When my husband and I were having trouble getting pregnant, our OB/GYN told us to drink OJ to make his system more alkaline, so as to not kill off the sperm. I questioned her on this, and she said contrary to popular belief, while OJ is acidic going in, it's alkaline going out. I don't know if the same would hold true for Vit. C, I'd guess not. She also told me to drink OJ to avoid relapses of interstitial cystitis. Most doctors will have women drink cranberry juice, which is very acidic, but killer to those of us with IC, which is basically like having ulcer in the bladder. So, if you want to acidify, might want to consider cranberry juice instead, and it doesn't take much at all, maybe 4 oz.
Good luck with that. I'd try it for you, but like I said, I can't do the acidic stuff.

Jazz

Chadwick 04-16-05 11:39 PM

Good information. It appears you are correct. I will attempt to locate more information on the precise effect of Vitamin C intake on urine pH. I spent a few minutes in vain on pubmed earlier today and will try, try again. :)

healthwiz 04-17-05 12:20 AM

share results with us, check if there is any research on acid ph eliminating amphetimines from system quicker

FightingBoredom 04-17-05 12:22 AM

OJ is acidic going in an alkaline going out because your body works to balance or neutralize levels in your body.
So, if you want to increase the acidity level you must increase your intake of alkaline's.

you'll also find this interesting: The chinese have always believed that drinking or eating something cold actually makes you physically hotter and drinking something hot makes you physically colder. So, drinking hot chocolate in the winter to warm you up and iced tea in the summer to cool you down would have the reverse affect.

Maybe that's why hot chicken soup helps reduce a fever, eh?

Now, here is my question....if I want to get my body to store LESS fat does that mean I would actually have to eat MORE fat? Like more fat and less protein, vegetables, and fruit, eh?

Would this work? :eyebrow: :rolleyes:

healthwiz 04-17-05 12:34 AM

Well, The Answer Might Be That People Hear What They Want To Hear

:)

Jon

stanzen 04-17-05 01:26 PM

OJ his OK, Chadwick, but I eat bananas for the potassium instead of other snacks--a tip from a once-bulemic friend. There's more here ...



One medium banana packs 450 mg. But potatoes actually top bananas in
potassium content: a medium baked potato or 20 French fries have 750 mg. Other good

Other sources include cantaloupe (500 mg per cup), beet greens (650 mg per one-half cup cooked), spinach, winter squash and Swiss chard (all around 450 mg per one-half cup cooked). And don't overlook the common bean. One-half cup of cooked lima beans tips the potassium scale at 475 mg; pinto and black beans dish out 400 mg potassium per half-cup serving. Potassium is water soluble, so leaches into water during cooking. A boiled potato, for example, loses at least half its potassium to the water it's boiled in. To reduce this loss, try steaming, microwaving, sauteing or even frying vegetables instead of boiling them. Keep the cooking water and add it to soups, stews and casseroles to increase their potassium content.

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/co.../nn981104.html

VickiS 04-18-05 12:06 AM

I have been having trouble getting a good nights sleep since starting Adderall, so following the same logic as Chadwick I started guzzling cranberry juice with my multivitamin, eating oranges and other such no-no foods an of hour before my bedtime, hoping it would flush more of the stuff out of my system. If there is any difference, I can't tell, but I do enjoy the foods, so I have kept up the habit.
Add dried apricots and prunes, oops! I mean dried plums to your high potassium snack list.

HughEvans 04-18-05 01:38 AM

Sounds like you're undertaking a bit of a literature review. I have a few suggestions:

-Studies have been done involving tolerance and hypersensitivity (off the top of my head the frequency of doses is the main variable... maximizing excretion may increase negative side effects over time)
-Ascorbic acid has complex elimination characteristics. Other substances are probably more reliable at decreasing urine pH.
-Steady state levels are something that your physician expects when prescribing a drug such as adderall. Consider the effects of disrupting this.
-Amp is a very old drug and has an extensive history in studies, which equates to tons of good data over the past 40 to 50+ years. There should be ample statistics available to confirm/dismiss your idea with some validity.

In response to one of the posts above, it's actually the metabolic products of OJ that make your urine alkaline rather than your body responding to acidity. The body doesn't tend to overcompensate in its' responses because doing so would waste a lot of energy.

Chadwick 04-20-05 02:44 PM

I bought pH testing strips specifically suited for urine sampling. I pass it in my stream, about 3 seconds after it has started, and let it stay there about 3 or 4 seconds. This can tell me my urine pH within about 0.5-1 accuracy. During the day, it seems my urine is neutral-basic, around 7.3-7.5. In the morning, it's around 6.3-6.5 (neutral-acidic). I will have to try a megadose of Vitamin C to see what the effect is, and then abstain for one evening and compare. As yet I do not know if my Vitamin C consumption has any effect on my urine pH.

ZipZap 04-25-05 08:10 PM

tissue salts
 
look into tissue salts (cell salts)

Capan 05-05-05 07:31 PM

I have read the ingestion of some types of vitamin C results in acidification of the intestinal contents and thus a decreased absorption of amphetamines. Supplements containing vitamin C should be taken an hour befor or two hours after taking amphetamines. I have also heard that use of magnesium along with amphetamines may enhance the effectiveness of these drugs.

MindResearcher 05-06-05 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chadwick
Hello folks,

I've been doing a great deal of research on amphetamine tolerance and as yet have not been able to reach any definitive conclusions. I am thinking however, just theorizing, that having it in your system for a shorter period of time is better than having it in your system for a longer period of time. Those who dose to provide coverage 12 hours per day are better off than those who dose to provide 16 hours of coverage per day. And those who find efficacy or are willing to tolerate only 4-6 hours of coverage per day are probably least likely to experience significant tolerance. By coverage, I mean perceived therapeutic benefit unrelated to the actual concentration of amphetamine in the blood. It is well known that the average half-life of amphetamine is around 7 hours in the average individual. Studies show, and indeed even Shire's Adderrall research shows that an amphetamine dose is still present in the system in a significant amount 24 hours later, and that repeated, chronic use of amphetamine builds up to a certain steady state especially if one doses twice a day or uses XR versions of amphetamine.

Vitamin C is known to acidify the urine, and there is lots of supportive research that this speeds the excretion of amphetamine from the blood. The half-life of Vitamin C being relatively short (according to one common figure, only 30 minutes!) should mean that ingested nightly, you eliminate a greater percentage of amphetamine from your system, and give yourself a cleaner beginning when you wake up, by which time one would hope the Vitamin C has lost its potency! Your body has, as you slept, rid itself of more amphetamine, and thus more amphetamine tolerance, at least this is what the research would lead me to believe.

I have made far too many changes to my personal regimen recently and cannot personally attest to any of the above. I would however ask you folks for your theories and opinions on the previous paragraph (let's call it a thesis. ;) Because of the possible benefits of Vitamin C with regard to the above issue, and for good health in general, I have lately been ingesting 1 gram of Costco's Kirkland Signature Vitamin C, nightly, which is primarily ascorbic acid (if I recall correctly, I could be wrong here, I am not presently at my home). I have also, please scold me now for increasing my risk for insulin resistance and diabetes, been consuming 1 serving of orange juice nightly for urine acidifying reasons, and for the good nutrients in orange juice, primarily what I'm after is the potassium, which I find very hard to get the RDA of without consuming too many calories above maintenance. Does anyone know how to get lots of potassium in a healthy, non-toxic manner aside from OJ? Does OJ acidify the urine more or better than Vitamin C alone? If I could get the amphetamine clearing effect very well just from Vitamin C alone, I would gladly do just that and wean myself from orange juice.

I really have to wrap up this post now, I do have a few chores to take care of at my friend's house. Thank you folks for any theorizing and anecdotes you can provide.

Regards,

-Chad

Hello chad, VERY good and interesting. Well I have a tolerance issue, and for the last 2 months, Iv been taking 3 days off right before my next appointment and my tolerance shoots back down, but then after 2 -3 days its back up. Well, I dont like stopping adderall because them IM like in bed sleeping he days away.

A few tricks Iv read which are natural or seem to be are taking sodium Bicarbonate, (baking soda) but certain pharmacys sell OTC and flavored and still did not take it yet, last week I picked up some. Next DXM or dexromethorphan, which is just what iV read im not at all advocating this but is supppose to block the glutamate channel NDMA , also Magnesium, l-theanine and possibly a strong antioxidant or DHA, would help.

maybe taking 1 day out of the week, even if you had to sleep, off, or just taking 1.2 or 1.4 the dose. drinking alot of water, banananas, No coffee unless in a pill to lesson acitity, keeping your intestianal track clean, with stomach formula like ginger, aloe, acidopholis, Neurooxidants like DHA, some nootropics which can be researched.

Yes I always thought Vitamin C would excrete amphetamines, I have test strips and I always fall right in the middle like 6.5. Well on this test strips i have, dark red is very acidic and dark green is alkaline, I seemed to fall between weakly acidic and weakly alkalinic But I dlike to get it up in the green more, but who wants to keep taking uirine swabs lol. well if you really intend to do such, but i often just forget to test every day.

I take 30mg of adderall IR. For example, If I take my first dose at say 10am, By about 1100am or a bit longer I may feel a bit , and will last almost exactly to about 4pm, then dip off, so about 3pm, or every 5 hrs, ill get another in me so by hour 6, the adderall dose is starting to effect me as the first dose is lessoning. This is why My doctor has me on 3x daily because 2x wasnt covering my 16-18 hrs, but now, 6 -6-6 is perfect. I guess actually adderall IR is tooted longer than even dexedrine and Ritalin ir which last 2-4 hrs.
Iv tried dex spanuals, Adderall Xr, and my body does not like extended release versions! I thought dex would be good, but I didnt feel it at all. Ritalin was a rollicoster and a crash. Adderall XR for me, worked so much different than regular IR , negatively. I never tried Dexedrine IR or methamphetamine HCI, which I dont plan on but Maybe Dexedrine IR would be ok, but IM happy with Adderall IR. Just with It would last at least 8 hrs. But Iv even timed it a few times ,and by hr 7, I really feel it dipping, NOt crashing bad but my mood dulling, and motivation plummeting, so, I usually take my dose 5-6 hrs , empty to light stomach, then eat about 1 hr later, or sometimes, lower the dose later in my month regiment and take 200mg of caffiene pill form, to lesson the dose of adderall, and caffiene in a pill doesnt cause much acitiy like lquid coffee. Seems if I drop to like 25 or 22.5mg and take 200mg of caffiene, I slightly feel a bit but not much. Then you save 5-7.5mg at 3x day comes out to 22.5mg a day, and over a week averages, you back off around 160mg a week, but this is tolerance issues come about and i factor this in.

OH well this is my opionional basis not intended for anyone to try, but I still do well even if i dont feel it, because its working well on my add, and im not trying to constally feel speedy , but it does tend to give you a nice boost of energy sometimes, but I dont see it as much of a high, like opiates or alcohol. The positives outweight the negatives by far in my case, so Im doing fine, thank you for taking the time to read my post l
gene

HughEvans 05-08-05 10:01 PM

Taking breaks during long term use typically creates tolerance. Urine pH of 6.5 is fine and *normal* you do want to let the drug out rather than force it to stay in. Vitamin C has little to do with urine pH as your body is a much more complex buffer system than you realize. If taken in its' free-acid form you might have more luck but you will also most likely damage your intestines too (I think this was a factor in the death of Linus Pauling's wife).

On another note: acidifying your intestines won't decrease absorption of adderall. If anything you'll absorb more, but it will also come out in your urine a bit more quickly. Vitamin C is known to decrease amphetamine reabsorption, which takes place in your kidneys and is really the matter at hand here.


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