Acceptance
 

I've got one of those 'is it just me" questions.


There have been times I've looked at some of the symptoms of ADHD and I can't relate to them or they seem a bit hazy.

This morning I was in my kitchen making a cup of coffee and a bun with jam. I poured the coffee, put in the suger then turned to get a knife to cut my bun. There was a knife in the sink, I picked it up, it needed washing, I washed the dishes, turned around and remembered the coffee and bun.

Truth be told I just found the coffee hours later only half drank.

When this happened I was able to see the 'working memory' issue in action.


Now here's the thing, if you were to ask me if I'm forgetful, I'd shrug and say, oh yeah, all the time! Yet, if you were to ask me do you have a deficit in working memory, I'd be offended. How dare you! There's plenty of ram in this noggin.


It seems to be a matter of association. Asking me if I'm forgetful isn't a big deal because everyone forgets things. Asking me if I have a deficiency arouses something else entirely.

It made me wonder just what it takes to accept that these limitations are real.


And one more thing.

The statement "there is no cure". Intellectually it seems abstract, it doesn't have any concreteness to it. I work each day on various things because I believe in getting 'better'. The more often you do something the better you get. Yet, 'there is no cure' means that any gains are temporary and always will be. Has anyone been able to really wrap their head around this?

The answer, at least for me, to the question 'are you progressing'? is yes.

There is no cure.. restricts the question but in a really ambiguous way.

I'm not sure what I'm getting at with this one, but there is a sense of a rigged game going on. I can't articulate it. Perhaps some of you may have thought of this more or have somehow managed to reconcile it.


Any thoughts would be great.

Re: Acceptance
 

That's easy Ginnie!

If you forget to get yourself coffee,than thats just a little common forgetfulness.
If you forget to get *me* coffee,then you have a deficit.:)

I completely understand what you mean,though.
For me,I don't let things that I do to myself, affect me as much as when I think I've let down others.
When people question me about my capability for responsibilites concerning others,I don't take the criticism too well,because I try so hard.
I think for me,is that I *know* if I can concentrate hard enough,I can perform the task at hand.

Now whether I'm right or not,I know I did my very best,and negative reinforcement doesn't work well with me.

Besides that,I am my worse critic,and I really don't need others chiming in on something I know I did wrong.

I think its just human nature,even for NT's.

And don't tell me I'm wrong,damnit!:)

Re: Acceptance
 

Heh, you know, I never really thought about it like that.

Personally, I don't really think of the way I am (or most of us are) as deficient really. I never really have. I know we're different, and that it can be a giant pain to be like this, but I don't know that I'd really want to be just like all the other people are.

I know we need to add stuff to our minds to make it work right at this point in our evolution, but I am not convinced that that makes us actually deficient. I know, technically we are deficient in the whole refilling of the neurotransmitter emitters or whatever, but I think we have something to offer that others don't.

I know what you mean about the RAM thing. I have noticed it 'in action' too when doing some tests with abstract maths. It is hard to keep several figures straight at once, calculate them, then pull from them what's needed to do the calculation.

The thing is, I know I can do this, I just can't do it... or it takes far longer than I think it should. The capacity to do the stuff is there, but the lack proper RAM makes it quite difficult.

I know what you mean about the rigged thing too, but I don't think there is anything any more rigged than what we rig ourselves... I sense no malice myself.

Beware of this road though, for it's the sure path to some deep, dark and scary places, that many of us are particularly vulnerable to because of our meds. There are schisms down that road, and lots and lots of fear. If you find yourself considering that 'the game is rigged' too often, I would seriously talk to your doc.

I read a quote from an old Buddhist somewhere: "It is your mind that creates this world". I think it is true.

Re: Acceptance
 

Manageable, not curable describes WAY too much in my life.

I can manage my ADHD. I cannot cure it, nor can the best medical minds today. I can manage it to a point that allows me to live reasonably in society.

I am a cancer survivor. I am never allowed to forget that I can develop a new cancer. I am not "cured". I am a survivor.

My partner is going through chemo now. Today his tumors are smaller than when he started. They will never be operable and the hard reality is that we won't have to "manage" him long either.

Am I progressing? Dunno. Frankly, don't care much. I don't live for the convenience of other people, I live for me. As long as I am okay with forgetting my coffee, who else matters?

At the end of the day, the only yardstick that matters is yours. Decide what is important to you and find the solution for that thing.

The way I keep the RAM working is to take a note of things I want to recall. I don't even have to have pen and paper. All I have to do is "write" it down- my fingertip across my palm is sufficient. Somehow, that action moves the thing from working memory to storage.

I was born this way without my permission. I am doing the best I can. Anyone who has problems with that can forward them to the complaint department. The manager is Helen Wait. :)

Re: Acceptance
 

There sure is a lot of truth in this. More evidence that being an entrepeneur is the way to go.

Well sure, if I concentrate hard enough I can too, but here's the rub, can I concentrate hard enough to stop the involuntary memory dumps? They are really sneaky.





I guess what I mean here is that it's not others that I'm avoiding, I'm avoiding confronting the reality. Yes, someone else is pointing it out, not a someone I know because I don't know anyone with the information to point anything about my adhd with anything remotely accurate.

I notice this when I read stuff either on the forums or in the scientific literature. The way stuff is written in the scientific literature almost veils what I experience. I can give it a passing glance and go.. ok yeah, but the language used lets it slip right past my consciousness. Somehow words like 'working memory', 'emotional lability' and things like that are remote and have little to do with my conception of being me.

I'm not able to select the experience associated with those words as in "oh look another emotionally labile moment" It's meaningless blabber in that context. It would become real clear if it was characterized as "oh why did I have to react so dramatically? I just gave that poor person post dramatic stress" So the neurologist means 'can't control dramatic outbursts or unable to regulate dramatic flourishes'

If I don't make that leap from jargon to experience I'll never say "really? it's a regulation problem? huh.." I also won't be able to verify dysregulation for myself when it's happening because I haven't identified it as something to look for.

I should be motivated to look for these things because if you can identify something as it's happening or about to happen it does allow for a more control. Once the horse is out of the barn.. nope.. Or, is it involuntary paddock racing?



I'd only do that when I'm right. ;) But this isn't about being 'wrong' it's about "just don't tell me!" Avoidance.




I actually mostly agree with you, and me because that's how I think too. However, why is it we exert so much energy masking the symptoms? Trying to look normal? It's not just 'different' because different is ok. Difference doesn't require massive quantities of energy to masquerade as something not too different.



I agree that we do have much much to offer, that's not something I would dispute. But this portion really illustrates exactly what I'm talking about.

Please excuse the crude way I'm going to express this if you can.

we need to add stuff to our minds to make it work right = brokenhead --but I'm not convinced that there's anything amiss here. Hey it's not ALL bad.

This is exactly how I've been reasoning this out to myself all my life, pretty much. Doesn't this explain the self doubt tho? "Ok, I'm just a little different, when I do apply myself things work out, if I conveniently forget the bazillion times that things didn't work out? And if I don't pay attention to why things aren't working out (i.e. translating neurospeak to something I can relate to) I can continue to avoid ever confronting whether I'm making a mountain out of a molehill or a molehill out of a mountain"


Kinda like being on the price is right and picking door number one over and over and over again in some ground-hog-day-esque fiasco. Dang no car, oh dang no car again, oops, no car!

Or just being given 4-5 small numbers verbally and be asked to add them up. I can do it, easily, just really slow in my head. I don't like doing this in front of people tho because it's like being picked last for the team.


HAHA, whoa.. holster the anti-psychotics I didn't mean it THAT way.

I don't sense any malice either, in fact quite the opposite a sincere desire to help. But there is some kind of doublethink happening.

no cure? nope.

can be managed? yep

to what extent? dunno it's up to you

if it's up to me I manage until I'm off this merry go round. Nope, no cure.

argghhhhh

It is true but it's a completely different domain. It might be true that "I am" but when I get pulled over by a cop I better give him my ID. ;)

Re: Acceptance
 

And this is why I adore you. Yes, we are surviving. I certainly am and I know you are too.

What's important to me? I can count four generations of ADHD in my family at present. Future generations are pretty much a certainty. I see the self doubt in three of those generations and have memory of the fourth. I do see the inability to yardstick 'good enough' the goal posts are always moving.

I want to see healthy adhd. Ok, we got this, I can deal with this, you can deal with this. I want to see 'comfortable with my own traits'. And beyond this, no more stigma, is all this pain and doubt necessary? I hope not for everyone's sake.

(((hugs)))

Re: Acceptance
 

Re: Acceptance
 

Yes it does. If I do not accept the abnormal then I spend my life rationalizing, justifying and excusing the 'different'. I can't ever arrive at abnormal and proud.

If I avoid abnormal out of fear and anger that I might be exposed then I may never approach abnormal with critical thinking.

Re: Acceptance
 

Yeah – but it took a few years and a lot of reflection.



Not really – we can get better with certain aspects {some for me will always suck] but we still have to write our selves a note to remind us to take notes. We learn to work around our defects few if any literally eliminate them

Walking around the elephant in the living room so you can function is not the same thing as being able to push him out the front door so he is not present in your life at all.







Ah the auto delete where your brain decides arbitrarily that it no longer needs a piece of information so it auto-delete without one of those pop up authorizations. This is when it feels like my brain has a mind of it's own.

I find not being able to pick and chose what I remember worse yet what I forget frustrating seeing that the more important some thing is the more likely I will forget completely

Re: Acceptance
 

At least you get a car I always get a rock

This sounds like " lets make a deal" where they dressed up in funny costumes to try and get picked = okay one way we are different is you can use three different shows to make a point and I understand you perfectly and add a fourth.


Picking door number one ect remind me of this show any way Some times I want to trade my brain for what is behind door number one even if it is a donkey wearing a model in a clown suite especially if the model or the donkey has a better short term memory !!!!

Iturned the dryer on earlier to dry some sheets and stuff and I I heard this horrible thud. I tried to remember what I put in the dryer that would shound like that ???

I opened the door to find out because I could not remember Luckily it was one of the heavier cats which is why he made a loud enough thud to prompt me to open the door after only ten to fifteen seconds Had it been a kitten the thud may not have been loud enough to draw my attention and that is scary The cat could have been seriously hurt


My poor fuzzy dizzy kitty was not hurt thankfully but it was one of the many moments I want to trade my brain for what is behind door number one – after my husband called half his family to tell them what I had done I wanted to keep the brain and trade the husband –

Now I guess I will see who has the worse memory – a contest between me and the cat – will he climb in the dryer before I forget to check the dryer for kitties again.



Although every measurement is done in contrast I am not sure I totally agree with all of this - I agree that no one likes to be seen in an unfavorable light unless he/she has learned to use it to their advantage I think one of the reasons we can not see our selves a having a deficit is we have nothing to compare it to. I mean I have always been ADD so I do not know what it is like to be any different.

Because I was born this way I never had a "working memory" so I don't miss it because I never had it to begin with. Sort of like a person born blind doesn't miss seeing like one who became blind later in life. Although a person born blind may wish he/she knew what it was like to see being blind is all that person has ever known blindness is in effect “normal” for that person just like spelling badly for a dyslexic is “normal”




.......

Re: Acceptance
 

Glad to hear kitty is ok! yikes.





I agree it's perfectly understandable why we don't see our deficits but most of us have diagnosed with ADHD and yet we generally don't identify as disabled.

I notice that the medical model of disability (man I got to write that post) seems to be the only one that really gets talked about here and only in a default way.

There seems to be little identification with the broader disability community. Education about what it means to have ADHD, what all these fancy words mean 'on the ground' we can and will continue to see only where the problems are with us if we even see them, and if we ever grasp the full extent of them, and not see those problems that are imposed. Those imposed problems will go unquestioned.

As an example the phrase "ADHD is a reason not an excuse" often comes across as a paternalistic admonition and not a liberating statement. When we avoid looking at impairment how will we know what is reason and what is excuse? How will we know when telling someone they are out of line is reasonable.

The reason so many of us suffer from low self esteem is because we didn't have information, we were basically left defenseless against moral judgements. Knowing you have ADHD helps, the sheer relief of being able to identify and name the problem relieves to some extent the burden of shame that until the last ten or so years we've had no choice except to agree with this verdict.


Without knowing exactly what it means to have ADHD, self doubt creeps in, the shame continues. It seems to me this would be a direct result of having not quite enough information to really see the failing mechanisms in action, as they happen.


So often on this forum and elsewhere the self esteem building mostly seems to orbit around how clumsily cute we are. Well, that's true enough, we are pretty darn adorable but it's a bandaid for a gaping wound.

I'm actually just sort of working this out as I type this evening, and I'm not writing anything in stone here. It's an exploration of sorts.

Another question is, if I don't know what the deficit is, and I mean KNOW not be mildly aquainted with I won't know whether the problem is me, or the problem is the circumstance. We know some circumstances make things much more difficult for us. Without the ability to pinpoint those circumstance and why they make things so much harder we'll never be able to justify to ourselves that we have the right to say, I can't do it your way. You can trip me and I'll fall but we both lose.



About that elephant in the room.

You can pretend it's not there.

You can pretend it's a benign cute lil pet.

You can resent it, hate it and call it names.

You can confine yourself to believing that people with elephants in the room are just different.

You could get to know the elephant, taking its presence seriously and maybe get him to shift his *** so we can discover places we've never seen.

Regardless of all these possibilities there will still be a lot of poop in your room.

Re: Acceptance
 

You sound like me,when I get in a vicious brainstorm,trying to figure out why things happen the way they do,and then become very frustrated when it makes no sense.

I try to be very methodical...do the same task the same way every time.Even my morning rituals all happen in the same order.

I did my last job the same way.I was very good at it,because I never had to 'think'. A constant routine has always kept my memory dumps to a minimum.

Who's reality? I'm just trying to acquire the tools I need so that I can participate in someone elses world,doing something that I enjoy.(Type of work). I have no desire to hang out there.

I have no desire or intention to 'fix' myself enough to where I will enjoy a room full of screaming fans cheering for 'their' sports team,which is made up of players whose 'dedication to 'their' team is based solely on salary.

I have no desire to try to fit in with a group of acquaintances at a party whose main goal seems to be bragging rights and social engineering.

Just as I need to wear glasses to see as well as I used to,for a condition that will never get better,I will gladly get rx glasses,and change the prescription when needed,because they help me do things that I enjoy at a greater level.

I don't feel I *have* to be a part of society,I just have to be able to live my life as contently as I can.

Huh? I had to look up 'dysregulation' on Wiki.:)

Wiki is a great source for simplifying jargon,btw...but perusing these forums and getting firsthand insight is my way of cutting past the jargon,and thankfully we have a few members that understand the jargon *and* us.:)


Sorry...trivia time:

Thanks to Rev Bayes(deceased 1761),you have a 66% better chance of winning the best prize,if you *switch* your choice of doors when Monty asks if you want to.:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem

Re: Acceptance
 

I can't even speculate how many people (without a DSM label) wander through life pondering these same types of questions.I don't think its limited to ADHDers by any means.
These are way too deep of questions for me...I TiVo'd "Family Guy",and I need to watch it before I fall asleep.

I like your analogy with the elephant:)

You left out one of the ways of dealing with it was to try to pick the beast up by yourself,and toss it out of the house. It seems your leaning in that direction.:o
Cover the room in linoleum,and feed it lots of fiber.:)

Re: Acceptance
 

Neither does the blind man as to himself he is as he has always been and to be honest being blind is only a deficit in the light but in darkness a “naturally blind person” can actually be advantaged over the seeing – a perspective shift does wonders for those hard to understand places




Okay I am missing some thing and it could be that I am tired and should be in bed instead of posting .

Clarification request You seem to feel we as ADFers should identify with people who have other disorders. Some of us do if we have coexisting conditions but without the coexistence I do not understand why ADDers need to identify with people who have other disabilities Those people who are autistic or bipolar are going to have different problems than some one who can’t pay attention. With the exception of maybe struggle with being misunderstood by the NTer community in general I do not see what we would have to talk about I have never seen any indication that people who have other disabilities identify with each other or identify with us.





Are you saying that if we understood the struggles of people who have other conditions we would understand ours more?? Again trying to understand what you are saying




To me one is making as excuse when ADD is used so that behavior that negatively effects others can continue unchallenged by personal responsibility - Even if said behavior is some thing one can not change there is the matter of responsibility

I am going to use Gary as an example – the man is so ADHD he can not work for any one else – He doesn’t know what a morning is , he wants to micro manage but can’t manage subordinates worth a crap so he is basically unfit to work in most jobs. He is a recovering addict so he won’t take medications but in the end he is stiff responsible for all his defects and supporting himself

He could use ADD as a reason because Gary has found a way to live within these deficits with as little negative impact on others as possible while still being able to be self supporting. I have heard Gary talk to customers setting up delivery times – He rarely sets up delivery times before 1pm, because he knows he probably won’t get out of bed before noon

While he is unable to change the behavior he takes responsibility for it and sets up delivery times in accordance to that trait while still considering his customers needs

An excuse is work for someone else who wants you there in the morning and when you stay up to late thus over sleeping you blame ADD, Instead of shifting your life around your sleeping schedule you blame ADD for being unable to get up in the morning like every one else – what you are doing is using ADD a barrier to making productive and considering the impact it has on other people


I hope I got this out in a manner where it makes sense


Excuse is when some one uses a trait to absconding personal responsibility , a reason is why life modification are necessary When ADD is a reason the person is accepting responsibility by taking actions to resolve the problem the ADD traits cause.




This may be where I differ I never saw my tardiness as a moral problem I always seen it a crappy time management. I think this is because my mother tended to be more logical and pragmatic and less judgmental She doesn’t really see things in a right verse wrong manner she sees things as weak areas and strengths I am guessing this is why fail to understand the why morals are assigned to thing like crappy time management

I had low self esteem and some times still do because of my dyslexia I feel stupid asking fourth grades how to spell things – but I do not see myself as less valuable I guess I do not assign value based upon intelligence or morals so I am probably ill equip to help in this area Notice I rarely get into thread dealing strictly with low self esteem and if I do it is brief . . outside of abuse I don’t really get the low self esteem thing



Hmm I am unsure of what you are asking – so here is a guess

I suck at time management because I frequently loose track of time. When I am unprepared or failed to plan ahead the results are easily seen however – I nor any one else for that matter is capable of observing that which does not happen – no one can perceive me loosing track of time at best they can observe the results ADD is a disorder of negative – In other wards it is a condition based upon that which we can not do as opposed to schizophrenia which is diagnosed based upon positive traits Meaning the symptoms are things that the person does or has – an example is hallucinations the person has them they are present where as a trait of ADD an example is lacking organizational skills The person with the ADD symptom is lacking a trait that should be present but is not.

I hope I explained that right

Re: Acceptance
 

actually we are back at perspective again – what matters is finding an approach that works for you – The following are generalizations given for ease of explanation

Some feel comfortable and actually relieved at being given a defect diagnosis because they feel less like a louse. The deficit in say working memory for some means they are not a failure and can actually motivate some to finding modifications that work They are able to make improvements because the diagnosis eases the burden of condemnation These people also are more likely to see the ADD as a separate entity from their personhood as they tend to compartmentalize things and are most like going to be found in the I have ADD camp


For other people the deficit perspective disempowers them , to them being impaired means they as people are broken and they are helpless to fix it The deficit approach if heeded will decrease this kind of person’s motivation because it is saying change can not happen. These are the folks who prefer to see the positives of being ADD. It isn’t a bandied approach it is an attempt to find a strength one can work with in order to make improvements. Most of these people see ADD as part of them they tend to be global big picture thinkers so they are normally found in the I am ADD camp.

As you well know some member relate to both approaches but I used concrete extremes to illustrate the difference in perspectives as to why some see us are irresistibly adorable
.


Easy it is the interaction between you and your circumstances – if you can not change to fit your circumstances then the next logical step is to change the circumstance like gary did in my example in the excuse verses reason response Gary could not change him so he changed his working environment


The reason for pin pointing is never the need to justify in my opinion living with ADD isn’t about justification it is about improved functioning - One of the major long term successful ADD treatments requires one to learn what sort of environments and activities brings out the worst and what brings out the best.

For a hyperactive person having a desk job brinks out the worst in them because it requires remaining seated which is not an hyperactive ADDers strength. Most hyperactive ADDer do better in jobs where walking and talking is desired such as in nursing and dancing.

Pinpointing environment that work for us is all about manipulating the environment to work in our favor as opposed to trying to cram ourselves into an environment that works against our natural tendencies There is no right or wrong answers only one that is right for me which may or may not be the same one that is right for you




another alternative is to live every but the living room , if one constructs their house accordingly one can conceivably design their house so that contact with the elephant is minimized

It may not all be in your perspective but a great deal of life is as are the solutions

One of the Albeit Einstein sayings I almost put in my signature this times


a few more applicable ones


A man before his time – to bad the scientist of today have forgotten these ideas :(