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-   -   Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD (http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125254)

Dizfriz 06-01-12 09:19 AM

Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD
 
Sigh, if this is accurate, then another treatment that I wished would work goes down the drain.

For children, we have medication and behavior management. We could sure use something else that really works.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0531101706.htm

Dizfriz

LynneC 06-01-12 10:42 AM

Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD
 
I'd like to see the actual studies that they pooled the results from...

I'll post them if I can dig them up...

ETA, no luck... just the abstract; the study is behind a paywall
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2012-12954-001/

Drewbacca 06-01-12 02:31 PM

Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD
 
I think that the study is only meaningful when looked at as a quick fix. I think ten year trials in which the focus is teaching memory aids and methods would pay off. If there is a "quick fix" it would have to be made as intensive as possible to shock the brain into reorganizing itself. By intensive, I'm talking about dropping someone who knows nothing about survival in the wilderness and letting them fend for themselves (ok, that might be an exaggeration, but you get the idea).

Drewbacca 06-01-12 02:40 PM

Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LynneC (Post 1311364)
I'd like to see the actual studies that they pooled the results from...

I'll post them if I can dig them up...

ETA, no luck... just the abstract; the study is behind a paywall
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2012-12954-001/

http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/rel...lby-lervag.pdf

ginniebean 06-01-12 02:48 PM

Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD
 
You know, I can't say I'm surprised by this finding. It does line up with my experience and you know, when that happens I don't have to question if I'm trying hard enough, have Ibeen doing something wrong, it actually helps me see the limits and sometimes there is a relief in being able to say, "No, I can't do that, that's just not how it works."

I do want people to find stuff that will work, but seriously, it would be nice if it wasn't something I've tried and failed to see improvement from. I'll probably still challenge myself with memory games, still cheat at Simon when I know full well I'm pathetic at it, logic puzzles, but it's nice to just do them for fun instead of to try and force my brain to work better.

I'd like to know what the boundaries of my limitations are, it's more than blurry, it's such a questiin mark. Not having a clue does hurt us because pushing too hard is just as bad as not pushing hard enough.

Drewbacca 06-01-12 03:16 PM

Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ginniebean (Post 1311527)
I'd like to know what the boundaries of my limitations are, it's more than blurry, it's such a questiin mark. Not having a clue does hurt us because pushing too hard is just as bad as not pushing hard enough.

I live this statement. I have identified several of my problems with trying to complete a degree, but, first and foremost it is pushing too hard.
I tend to look at my deficiencies as obstacles to overcome. Why wouldn't I? Experience has shown me that it's roughly a 50/50 split on what I can overcome and what is pointless to take on. If there was an easy answer (a manual, if you will) from day one that explained how to get the most efficient learning out of me... I would have had significantly less work, anxiety, and frustration in my life.

There are two types of "not pushing hard enough" imho. The first is one of, or some mix of, the following: laziness, anxiety, example (lack of), frustration, lack of effective resources, attentive issues, low energy levels (due to medical reasons including dietary), attitude, etc.

The other type that I've identified is cost/benefit. Every minute that we spend focused on a less efficient learning method is a potential minute that could be spent using a more effective method for a given individual. Which brings us round full circule; If I knew, right out of the gate, what worked and what didn't, life would be much easier. I think this is what research needs to focused on. I don't think that you can "exercise" the brain into overcoming a deficiency that shouldn't be there to begin with. I think you need to instead rebuild the underlying structure and thought process in a way that is helpful to a person struggling with learning/memory issues. As stated above, I generally see this as a long term fix.

spunkysmum 06-01-12 03:28 PM

Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ginniebean (Post 1311527)
You know, I can't say I'm surprised by this finding. It does line up with my experience and you know, when that happens I don't have to question if I'm trying hard enough, have Ibeen doing something wrong, it actually helps me see the limits and sometimes there is a relief in being able to say, "No, I can't do that, that's just not how it works."

I do want people to find stuff that will work, but seriously, it would be nice if it wasn't something I've tried and failed to see improvement from. I'll probably still challenge myself with memory games, still cheat at Simon when I know full well I'm pathetic at it, logic puzzles, but it's nice to just do them for fun instead of to try and force my brain to work better.

I'd like to know what the boundaries of my limitations are, it's more than blurry, it's such a questiin mark. Not having a clue does hurt us because pushing too hard is just as bad as not pushing hard enough.

It WOULD be nice if we could know ahead of time what we are just never going to be able to get really good at, before we sink a lot of time and effort into it.

mildadhd 06-01-12 06:33 PM

Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dizfriz (Post 1311327)
Sigh, if this is accurate, then another treatment that I wished would work goes down the drain.

For children, we have medication and behavior management. We could sure use something else that really works.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0531101706.htm

Dizfriz


Have you considered training memory?

Lunacie 06-01-12 06:43 PM

Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Geronimoo Back-Y-Rita (Post 1311609)
Have you considered training memory?

:confused:

How is "training memory" different than "memory training" which Dizfriz was
posting about?

Electra2 06-01-12 07:20 PM

Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD
 
I tried memory training on the internet some months ago and it made me remember how much I suck at it and how much I hate such stuff and how different I am and yeah generally made me feel stupid.
My memory curve first went up then it quickly stabalized and I think it went up only because that was the time in the game when I learned how it should be done...so I really didnt improve at all I just learnt new game-rules and it looked like improvement.

mildadhd 06-01-12 08:08 PM

Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunacie (Post 1311612)
:confused:

How is "training memory" different than "memory training" which Dizfriz was
posting about?

I have lots of research information on this subject.

I will start here and try to expalin in parts.



"Memory Training" occurs after the brain is mostly developed.

(stressor response systems developed),

Approx. 8 - 90 year of age.



"Training Memory" occurs while the brain is still developing.

(stressor response systems developing)

Approx. Third Trimester and the first 3 to 7 years of Life.



Quote:

Maternal care during infancy regulates the development of neural systems mediating the expression of fearfulness in the rat
Christian Caldji *, Beth Tannenbaum *, Shakti Sharma *, Darlene Francis *, Paul M. Plotsky †, and Michael J. Meaney * , ‡
+ Author Affiliations

*Developmental Neuroendocrinology Laboratory, Douglas Hospital Research Centre, Departments of Psychiatry, and Neurology and Neurosurgery, McGill University, Montreal, Canada, H4H 1R3; and †Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Emory University, Atlanta, GA 30322
Communicated by Bruce S. McEwen, The Rockefeller University, New York, NY (received for review August 31, 1997)
The development of responses to stress in the rat is influenced by the early postnatal environment (for reviews see refs. 1–3). Thus, postnatal handling during the first week of life decreases behavioral fearfulness and hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal (HPA) responses under conditions of stress. These effects persist throughout the life of the animal (4, 5) and form a basis for vulnerability to stress-related disease (6).

http://www.pnas.org/content/95/9/5335.full

LynneC 06-01-12 08:51 PM

Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD
 
Drewbacca, thanks for posting the pdf...
Since I have only a very rudimentary understanding of statistics, I mainly focused on the discussion section. :p

The gist seems to be that there may be short term improvements with working memory, but these are mostly related to the specific tasks that the programs used in their training. The effects did not transfer to other non-task related areas. The author dismisses the claims made by some memory training programs that the effects of memory training will lead to improvements in reading and mathematics (these programs are not likely to help children w/ learning disabilities)

One weak point in the meta analysis is that the average training time in the studies they looked at was 12 hours. This doesn't seem like enough time to make any significant changes in working memory...

mildadhd 06-01-12 09:01 PM

Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD
 
During the Time of Critical Development there is an extremely better response,

Than after the Time of Critical Development.


Quote:

Effects of an attachment-based intervention on the cortisol production of infants and toddlers in foster care

MARY DOZIER,a ELIZABETH PELOSO,a ERIN LEWIS,a JEAN-PHILIPPE LAURENCEAU,a and SEYMOUR LEVINEb
Author information ► Copyright and License information ►
The publisher's final edited version of this article is available at Dev Psychopathol
See other articles in PMC that cite the published article.
Go to:
Abstract
Studies with nonhuman primates and rodents, as well as with human children, have suggested that early separations from caregivers are often associated with changes in the functioning of the hypothalamus–pituitary–adrenal (HPA) axis. On the basis of these findings, we designed a relational intervention that was intended to normalize HPA functioning among children in foster care. This paper presents findings from a randomized clinical trial that assessed the effectiveness of a relational intervention (Attachment and Biobehavioral Catch-up [ABC]) with regard to HPA functioning. The ABC intervention was intended to enhance children’s ability to regulate physiology and behavior. The control intervention (Developmental Education for Families) was intended to enhance children’s cognitive skills. A comparison group of children who had never been in foster care was also included. Children’s cortisol production was assessed upon arrival at the lab, and 15 and 30 min following the Strange Situation. Random effects analyses of variance were performed to assess differences in initial values and change between children in the two intervention groups. Children in the ABC intervention and comparison group children showed lower initial values of cortisol than children in the treatment control group, considering arrival at lab as initial values (p < .05). Groups did not differ significantly in change over time. These results suggest that the ABC intervention is effective in helping children regulate biology in ways more characteristic of children who have not experienced early adversity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3258505/

mildadhd 06-01-12 10:03 PM

Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ginniebean (Post 1311527)
You know, I can't say I'm surprised by this finding. It does line up with my experience and you know, when that happens I don't have to question if I'm trying hard enough, have Ibeen doing something wrong, it actually helps me see the limits and sometimes there is a relief in being able to say, "No, I can't do that, that's just not how it works."

I do want people to find stuff that will work, but seriously, it would be nice if it wasn't something I've tried and failed to see improvement from. I'll probably still challenge myself with memory games, still cheat at Simon when I know full well I'm pathetic at it, logic puzzles,
Quote:

but it's nice to just do them for fun instead of to try and force my brain to work better.
I'd like to know what the boundaries of my limitations are, it's more than blurry, it's such a questiin mark. Not having a clue does hurt us because pushing too hard is just as bad as not pushing hard enough.

Ginnie Bean,

Forcing stops the thought process.

Normally when a person gets stressed the blood flow,

flows out of the prefrontal cortex.

And is used by the middle/back of the brain.



Fight Freeze or Flight.

When this happens to an ADHDer.

The front becomes more impaired and the body becomes more tense.

Fun is stimulating and inviting.




Quote:

but it's nice to just do them for fun instead of to try and force my brain to work better.
What I need your advice on is.

Everyone with ADHD is different.

ADHD is multifactoral.

That means Multi Facts.

Multi Causes

A Spectrum.

ADHD Multifactoral Syndrome Spectrum

Depending on experiences,

and time of life,

some ADHDers will be able to make some progress.

Some might be more established.

Early life 3 to 7 years of age.

is so different than even 10 years old.

By 18 things will heal,

but at a snail pace.

Compared to early childhood.

There is still other areas that we can make gains in.

I am talking the opposite of force.



Environment,

the Teacher,

the students,

everything really effects me and my ADHD.

I think there are conditions which it is more possible,

and other conditions that are not.


How do I react?

In regards to the authors comments?

EDIT: FUN AND COMFORT ARE LIKELY TO MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE IN MY MEMORIES

Any one disagree?

sarahsweets 06-01-12 11:03 PM

Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD
 
Ahhh memorial training.



Quote:

Originally Posted by ginniebean (Post 1311527)
You know, I can't say I'm surprised by this finding. It does line up with my experience and you know, when that happens I don't have to question if I'm trying hard enough, have Ibeen doing something wrong, it actually helps me see the limits and sometimes there is a relief in being able to say, "No, I can't do that, that's just not how it works."

I do want people to find stuff that will work, but seriously, it would be nice if it wasn't something I've tried and failed to see improvement from. I'll probably still challenge myself with memory games, still cheat at Simon when I know full well I'm pathetic at it, logic puzzles, but it's nice to just do them for fun instead of to try and force my brain to work better.


I need some memory training so I can put my wallet in purse and not the cubbord, my keys on the key rack, instead of refridgeratior next to the oarneges.
I'd like to know what the boundaries of my limitations are, it's more than blurry, it's such a questiin mark. Not having a clue does hurt us because pushing too hard is just as bad as not pushing hard enough.



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