I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

Like many other people with ADHD I have a problem with temper. However, I get really confused when I watch a video like this with Russell Barkley. According to him it would seem as if EVERY single person with ADHD have social problems? I AM a very tempered person within the family but the only one who sees my temper is my husband. I am VERY tolerant towards my surroundings and I have always been told that I am TOO nice and that I shouldn´t accept everything. I have learned to be more straight forward towards my surroundings but to me it seems as if that would be impossible if you ask Russell Barkley? I do think that the man generelly have a lot of points but when he describes ADHD I don't think he is very nuanced - and often I can't even recognize myself in what he describes.:(

Why is he so black/white? Or is it only me who think that? Does anyone have a video of Russell where he explains the diversity in which the ADHD symptoms can be expressed?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcwp9T3zNcM

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

I wonder if there is one presentation where a scientist doesn't say some stupid little joke.

I think Russell describes the worst of the worse symptoms in ADHD, and he's talking about children. Children aren't as capable of controlling emotions or working out ways to diminish some of the issues they're having. Some might not even be aware that they're causing so much trouble.

I'm nice too but I do get impatient and irritable with people. There exist only two people in the world that haven't ****** me off yet. So yeah I have a problem with handling my emotions and with tolerating people.

A lot of doctors can be black and white when describing symptoms too. Obviously not everyone is going to be that way and they experience symptoms in different degrees to the next person.

Thanks for the video. I'm interested in finding out more about ODD. Sounds like me, sigh.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

I think what frustrates me most is not that he doesn't acknowledge that it is possible to control anger. I didn't have many conflicts as a child - only with my parents. But people considered me as the nice and quiet girl. Only in my teens I started to isolate myself and first later I really started to get these outburts of anger. I know a lot of people with ADHD that are like that. I guess it is because it makes my insecure on my identity. I can't explain it so well in English :(

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

Inattentive type? Such things as emotions are hard to control in hyperactive/impulsive type. I'm combined and sometimes I get so sick of my lack of control over my outbursts that I want to do away with emotions. And well I have but that usually takes a severe mental collapse or when turning off from people.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

I guess I am the inattentive type but in Denmark you don't distunguish so much between the types - I think. I also have problems with my temper, but mostly when I am stressed. There are periods where I am much more calm and I DO think about the consequenses towards my children for instance. I DON'T want to yell at them and I am quite patient towards them.

But I can also read books and concentrate about a lot of things. It is mostly my thoughts, emotions and lack of motivation that control my life in a negative way. I just wish I could recognize myself more in the different describtions - especially when I tell people about my diagnosis. I really liked Sari Solden's book: "Women with ADHD" but Russell Barkley never tells about that kind of symptoms and I don´t know his opinion about that book. According to him there is not much difference between women and men with ADHD.

I feel so stigmaticed when I listen to Barkley :( And it annoys me that he is the one who is supposed to know most about that diagnosis?

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

When Barkley talks about ADHD symptoms, from my understanding he is talking about "untreated" symptoms.. So, no drugs, no cognitive behaviour therapy, no developing of good/positive coping mechanisms.

If the symptoms are coming out with the people closest to you (i.e your husband) then maybe you are coping with your symptoms by partially keeping distance from others? You said you isolated yourself when you were younger for example.

I am curious regarding the "Women with ADHD" book that you refer to, is there another thread on here with a discussion on that book to get an idea of it?

I think even the title of this thread where you say "it frustrates me" sort of re-enforces what Barkley says. What I would be curious is for you to show this video to your husband or to other close friends and see if they can see what Barkley says as being related to you. People with ADHD in general have an issue with "self-observation" so maybe an outside view on this would help too.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

Thank you for your respond.

I don´t know if there is a discussion about the book but I was guessing that many people have read it or heard about it :)

I know that I easily get emotional or upset, and that I also HAVE had social problems meaning that I was very shy as a child. But long before I got my diagnosis I managed to get a lot of friends and many people are seeking my company or contact me if they have problems. Therefore it is difficult to see myself as a person with severe social problems.

Furthermore I don't think I have issues with self-observation - I really do think that I know myself pretty good. My husband agrees with me about this.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

From what I have read, it sounds like the issue is more keeping friends and developing long term connections....

At younger ages maybe your peers are more forgiving but when you are getting older maybe other people would see an ADHD symptom as a "need to grow up" and unless they know the reason why you behave a certain way may be quick to dismiss you.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

Nothing against Barkley but does he have ADHD? I don't know.I still have a little resentment towards the guy after watching his video about accountability. I feel like I work my tail off to hold things together for my wife and I.I really believe for someone who grew up constantly being told they were either partially retarded or worthless I've done a damn good job. I make mistakes. I try to learn from them but I also was reminded last night of how incorrigible I am which I will agree with.I don't need to grow up people need to get a sense of humor and stop talking themselves so damn seriously

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

I find this slightly offensive.

I DO have anger and temper problems, I always have. But I would never explode at someone in a professional setting. Even if it is held in and comes out when I'm home (it does :umm1:) That is not the reason I did not have friends in elementary/middle school. People were disgusted by my disorganization, my depression (co-morbid) and my inability to sustain a conversation/task.

It had nothing to do with my anger.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

I haven't watched the video yet so forgive me please if I'm talking besides the point. In general, I think, when Barkley says these things he is talking about the majority of ADHDers and the symptoms that you are more likely to find in ADHD rather than in the general population. ADHD is a spectrum disorder and there are rather large differences.

But I guess that people with ADHD do largely seem to have problem with controlling their emotions and that can often manifest itself as temper problems.

Also, if I understand him correctly, his theories don't really include ADHD PI or SCT since he believes that they might be a completely different group. (I could be wrong though.)

Lol, good point. Emotional regulation problems and even a quick temper can present themselves in different ways. I'm usually told by others that I'm too soft and a pushover but people who know me really well like my husband think that I'm passively aggressive, very irritable and very impatient. I agree with my husband. I actually do have a bit of a temper but I just don't show it easily.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

It could be that your life as a child wasn't very frustrating and anger-causing.
I don't remember being really angry as a child, but I do remember how my mother
was always telling me to control my temper. She didn't seem to understand that
I didn't know how to do that, I didn't have the skills to do that.

If someone doesn't have issues with emotional regulation, I would wonder if ADHD
was actually the right diagnosis. Maybe Dr. Barkley is right that ADHD-PI and SCT
are very different disorders from ADHD-H or ADHD-C.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

I probably had lets frustrations as a child, but I also felt anger - but with me it became worse with age and was worst around the age of 20.

I think the problem with Barkley - in my eyes - is that he gives a way too non-nuanced (what is the right word?) picture of the diagnosis. He gives the impression that we are all headless people who don't think about any consequences at all. He always gives this strange excample about fast driving. Me myself is a very careful driver and I am always afraid to hurt anyone. I also don't like to drive with people if they are not very careful.

I do have a huge temper in certain situations, but I CAN control it when I am out. At home it is more difficult, but I am very patient with my children and I don't wan't to shout at them. I know how damaging that would be for them. Often the anger is not about that I don't think about the consequences the problem is that it is just to powerful and overwelming to control so when I am furious my big challenge is how to create less damage around me. I DO think about the consequences and I also feel very sorry about my outbursts.

Barkley may know a whole lot about psychiatry, but in my opinion he lacks some knowlegde within psychology. I think he underrestimate people with ADHD and that they can easily have a great sense of responsibility. It is not our values that we struggle with. But if you are already a person without a consciense then ADHD won't make anything better of course.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

what everyone needs to remember, before getting offended by this video, is the thing he says at the very end "this is just one slide, I have 85" he probably goes into much greater detail


this is the first I have heard about ODD :( I have almost all those symptoms, its kinda depressing.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

I am very social but I have to have had a few drinks or be in a super hyper mood, otherwise I feel really awkward and dont know what to say.. I guess this is why I drink a lot :p
People don't believe me when I tell them this, they only see the crazy happy person

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

I'm also a careful driver - who can still be impulsive at times when driving if that makes sense.

But I attribute my caution in the car to the cormorbid Anxiety disorder I have.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

Yea, I got a bit surprised by his example of how someone with ADHD might overreact the first time I saw this video. Definitely not how I would act even before meds.

Couple things to consider:

-On some level, Barkley does not believe Inattentive symptoms are a form of ADHD.

He's long been trying to figure out if his hypothesis of SCT (Sluggish Cognitive Tempo) is what we Inattentives actually have, and he considers it a totally different disorder.

So his concept of ADHD is going to lean towards the "outwardly impulsive" types like that.

[Personally I disagree, and think we Inattentives are just "inwardly impulsive" (eg I dont drive impulsively, but I would open a web browser impulsively without considering other priorities first).]

-His twin brother had ADHD and died in a car accident, presumably from driving wrecklessly and "impulsively".

I think that has gotten Barkley a bit stuck on the concept of ADHD being a mostly hyperactive & physically impulsive disorder. It might be hard for him to visualize how someone might be born with Inattentive ADHD because all our symptoms are quiet and in our head.

I don't know if the picture in his mind of how his brother used to be has actually influenced his mental image of ADHD or not, but I do know his descriptions make it seem that way, at least to me.

Thankfully, Barkley is just one voice in a sea of ADHD researchers that all contribute towards a final perspective on how our disorder works.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

I sometimes wonder if the non-ADHD siblings in an ADHD family like Barkley's are also on the ADHD "spectrum"- where they have many ADHD traits but not extreme enough to be considered a disorder. I see this in my family and some of my friend's families as well. Perhaps that's why Barkley appears so rigid in his thinking at times.

Regarding temper- I have a terrible temper with my partner and my parents, I can usually keep it in check around other people.

I think that most of the time I'm a very good driver- I'm always scanning my environment, I tend to have very fast reflexes and I never tailgate.
But sometimes I'll do really impulsive reckless things. I also have terrible road rage issues, and I don't do well in parking lots.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

Watching the Barkley video, which of course I watched after I posted in this thread twice, he actually nails my own personal experience. I probably am one step away from ODD as he describes. Sleep-overs were hell for me. When really pushed I have snapped at customers and bosses. I was diagnosed as ADHD-PI.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

That's a good distinction to point out --- that it's more of a emotion/temper thing rather than the a hyperactivity-vs-inattentiveness thing.

I'll keep that in mind. Thanks.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

Some points on Barkley:

When Barkley is talking about some of the problems encountered with ADHD he is discussing the effects on groups. This is how the studies are done. You take a group of ADHDers and compare them with a similar group of non ADHDers and compare the statistics of the two groups or take a particular result or characteristic and compare it to the ADHD population. This does not say anything about a single individual's experience. An ADHD individual may or may not experience the issues he is discussing but many will in statistically significant numbers. So look it in terms on what is seen in groups of ADHDers as that is what he is talking about.

If you would note, he frames the discussion with the probabilities and statistics that apply to ADHDers and often frames as the probability that a person will exhibit these symptoms and behaviors. Again he is not saying that all will experience these but that many will and that this is significant.

On the issue of anger. Generally ADHDers are not anymore angry than non ADHDers but tend to show the emotion more. A deficit in emotional self regulation and inhibition are two of the hallmarks of ADHD. Simply stated, ADHD is a problem with inhibition, self-regulation, and time. It is the deficit in the ability to regulate and inhibit the *expression* of that emotion that is characteristic of ADHD and important in the context of this thread. In other words, an ADHDer will usually feel a normal amount of anger but cannot inhibit the expression of this anger. That is why so many ADHDers appear to be more angry but are really not.

So, it is quite reasonable for someone to remember that they were not all that angry as a child but it would be more accurate for others to judge the level of expression of the emotion. It is really hard to judge this for oneself

Again, and this is very important in understanding Barkley, not all with show all of these issues. To be diagnosed as ADHD you have to show a number of the symptoms but not all so no one is required to show all of the symptoms of ADHD and there is as much variation in expression of the disorder as there are people diagnosed. It is however a simple fact that significant numbers of ADHDers will show these and this is what he is discussing.

Next, in the workshops Barkley is normally talking about the statistics for untreated ADHD (as mentioned in an earlier post). He often states that overall, ADHD is highly treatable and the validated treatments can often bring an person almost up to normal in these issues. Untreated ADHD can be devastating when severe. An important part of these lectures is that they are not necessarily for those who are ADHD but more for those who are not. Teachers, parents, clinicians, school counselors, community resource people and many others are that primary target of Barkley. He is trying to show them that ADHD is real and can be clearly documented as potentially very serious with very serious consequences.


Two of the biggest complaints that I see directed at Barkley's lectures is that he is negative and should be more positive and that he does not describe the experiences of any particular individual.

First to the individual, I have tried to explain the concept that he is discussing ADHD with a statistical framework; how many will show particular symptoms and consequences. If he does not describe your personal experience in no way invalidates that experience nor does it invalidate statements about ADHD as a whole.

As to the negative aspects, Barkley does not see much positive about untreated ADHD. The statistics tend to bear out this viewpoint. So far, no one has presented much in the way of studies showing any positive aspects at least to date. You may not agree with this and I don't agree with everything he says but with Barkley, you can be sure of one thing, he has the research to back his opinions up.

By the same token, There is not much positive about severe depression, anxiety or bipolar as examples.

If you look at the lectures as focusing on showing the general public that ADHD is a serious disorder then what he says makes better sense. In his books he can be more positive in that he sees it as a very treatable disorder.

On a similar note some in the past have criticized Barkley for not showing more ways of helping ADHD. He does not do this much in his lectures as they are short and he is focused on showing what ADHD is and how it can affect people.

In his books, he gives a lot of ideas on how to deal with ADHD and especially for children his methods have been found to be very effective.

Lastly, you cannot really understand the totality of what he is saying just from the general public lectures. These are usually 3-4 hours in length and so an awful lot is left out by necessity. With just seeing one or two clips you get only a surface idea about what he is saying.

To understand what is discussed in any real depth you would have to read his more technical books and papers. It is there where he gets into the meat of the matter so to speak. In the lectures, he just barely scratches the surface of what he has to offer on the subject, it is the books where he really gets into it. It is a good thing to keep in mind.

I hope this may help a little in putting the lectures into some sort of context. Look at them but be aware that there is much more to the subject than just what is said there. The depth and range of his knowledge of ADHD is encyclopedic especially the scientific aspects of it.

There are good reasons that he is considered as one of the top people in the field.

Take care,

Dizfriz

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

The general consensus currently is that there is only one ADHD as such with different expressions including mostly inattentive with only a few impulsive/hyperactive ones. The issue of SCT is that it is a qualitatively different disorder with probably different causation and dynamics. This is being addressed, at least to some degree, in the DSM5. http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevision...n.aspx?rid=383

The categories proposed are:

Combined Presentation

Predominantly Inattentive Presentation

Inattentive Presentation (Restrictive) As best I can tell this is involved with SCT but until I can read with more detail I am not sure, and last

Predominantly Hyperactive/Impulsive Presentation (This is rather rare)

There will still be an inattentive category with ADHD but SCT is considered as possibly a different disorder. Under the DSM-IV SCT could only be classified as inattentive type.

I have not seen this in his writings to any degree but we shall have to see how it all shakes down.

Again, I do not seen this in his writings or in the more lengthy workshops. He pretty much seemed to be on the same track before his brother died.

But he is one of the more respected voices.

Interesting points,


Dizfriz

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

Personally I think Barkley is awesome- I have learned so much from reading his work, and I think he has increased awareness and understanding of our disorder tremendously.

Still I think there is something about his "tone" that can sometimes come across as abrasive, whether you're reading a book or watching a 5 minute video.

The author of this article atributes Barkley's style to the field of evolutionary psychology.

http://www.davidberreby.com/human_ki...icit_41222.htm

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

:goodpost:

I have depression, anxiety and have had therapists mention the possibility of bipolar.

I don't see anything at all positive about having any of those disorders.
Nor do I see anything at all positive about having ADHD.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

Thanks for sharing all that. It's great to see that the new subtypes are taking a step forward and that purely Hyperactive ADHD is recognized as being an outlier and not the 'main subtype' as they thought 10 years ago.

In terms of your experiences with Barkley, I'm glad to hear you say he isn't biased as I have been seeing some criticisms on these forums lately that made me question his perspective.

I think you're right about people's criticisms of him partially stem from his no-bs way of explaining things.

I do feel that his example of impulsive outburst is not the best representation of what happens with most of us, and like someone said above, perhaps he was just joking. He's usually so dry I couldn't tell if he was serious or not in that vid.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

But some of us do see some positives in our ADHD, and that's the point. While I appreciate that a lot of people don't see a single positive attribute in their ADHD, that doesn't mean that I can't or shouldn't find some positive aspects in mine.

My ADHD is certainly not a positive all the time. And there are large parts of it that I know I would be much better off without. But there are still aspects of it that I like, at least some of the time.

There are a lot of things I wouldn't have done without ADHD, like up and move across the country for no reason other than being bored, which ultimately led to me meeting my partner. Without ADHD, I know I would never have left where I came from. Of course, I probably wouldn't also get constant yearnings to go back. but it is what it is.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

His research, especially his symptom survey breakdown in 'Taking Charge of Adult ADHD' is what has given me any sort of clarity in what problems we encounter. I really have a lot of respect for his work.

There is an ambiguous zone though with all human behaviour, between knowing what is happening in the brain, and then determining how that manifests into our actions and thought processes.

It's guess work, and I happen to think he's guessing wrong. But I recognize that his quantifiable research has helped us fight for awareness and improved accommodations in so many ways. He is a blessing.

I think for the people on here (myself included) who talk about being positive, are really more focused on finding the positives despite our disorders, rather than finding positives within it.

I will never say that I have a net positive effect in my life from having ADHD versus not having it.

But I don't dwell on the negatives either.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

While I can appreciate looking for positive things in our lives despite having ADHD,
the impression I've gotten from some here is that they believe there are positive
things about actually having ADHD. The first makes sense to me, the second doesn't.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

I think that whether one chooses to see an aspect of their ADHD as positive or negative is dependent on external factors that permit one to divorce that aspect of their ADHD from the rest.

For instance:

Novelty seeking behavior can lead to spur of the moment european tours if you're financially supported by your family.

Not respecting authority and breaking the law can be fun and empowering if you never actually get caught.

Talking out of turn in class is fine and dandy if the teacher likes you or thinks you're smart.

Avoiding adult responsibilities can mean endless nights out if you don't have children to care for.

As I get older I do notice that there are less and less "if's", and I also think my ADHD is getting in my way more and more.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

And one can do all these things without being ADHD. It can make life rather interesting at times. Note that I didn't say pleasant just interesting.

Dizfriz

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

I'm 61 - and I have a granddaughter with ADHD and another with Autism+Anxiety
(possibly Bipolar).

I also have Anxiety and Depression so the "if's" have never looked like much
fun for me.

Novelty seeking behavior is where kids with ADHD get hurt.

Breaking the law is no fun at all if you get caught. Research is being done
into how many people in prison have undiagnosed and untreated ADHD.

Talking out of turn drives my daughter CRAZY and there are three of us
who do it to her. Then everyone is upset. No fun there.

My ex loved taking spur-of-the-moment road trips. No place special or expensive.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

The thing is, it's very hard for me to see what would and wouldn't be me without ADHD, especially now that I see what I'm like medicated. Medication seems to almost eliminate novelty seeking behavior for me. And I'm less nutty; I actually like being nutty.

I am sure that I would be a different person without it, whether that's a good or bad thing is impossible to say. I do know that the end of the day my ADHD does get in my way far more often than not.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

The only "benefit" that I get from ADHD is as stated in the quote in my signature. Here's the full clip from the article, and I tend to agree (for my specific life circumstances).

I've also referenced before an article on genius & creativity from the HowStuffWorks.com website. They talk about creative geniuses lacking 'latent inhibition' --- the mind's capacity to tell itself "that thought is irrelevant" and block it out.

Personally, I find my ADHD to be a large contributor to my lack of latent inhibition. And the tangent thoughts that comes from these random ideas and unrelated sources have become the backbone of a book I'm writing.

Is there a net benefit from ADHD?

As I said earlier, no. My productivity is hampered by always having to clean up after my own writing and pull it back on track.

But I also recognize that the base material has only been possible due to the random "distracting" thoughts that in these cases have actually given me some good ideas.

My brain should have been focused on my day job, or whatever chores I'm doing at home. But instead, because of ADHD, it interjected a thought that a normal brain would've been blocked out, and brought to my attention a pattern that a normal person would not have seen.

I recognize that its only beneficial because of what I'm working on, and otherwise is only detrimental to some of us who are just trying to concentrate. But in my case, directing my thought tangents have helped me. Even if only slightly, I can't say the benefit doesn't exist.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

People without ADHD do these things as well so they can't really be seen as positive traits that this 'gift' of ADHD has given us.

How blessed we are:rolleyes:

I'm with Barkley 100% when he says ADHD is NOT a gift.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

I agree.

To cap off my previous post, I'd say I have 1 benefit, but 5-6 strong drawbacks.

And I doubt my ability to capitalize on that 'benefit' if I weren't on medication. In that case it'd be 10+ drawbacks, all destroying my life. :\

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

I don't think it's a gift either, but I also don't think non-ADHD me would do those things. Other people might, but I don't think I would.

It's like I am compelled. A lot of the time I can be a boring uptight goody goody, and I often think that without ADHD that might be all the time. I have done so many crazy stupid things, and they have all contributed greatly to who I am. Again, it's not good or bad, it just is.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

I can accept that low impulse control may sometimes lead to good things but in my case its been mostly bad. I feel like I can't trust myself not to do or say something stupid that I'll regret later.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

I'm confused as to why some are offended by the video. What he said is nothing new. My interpretation is that he said when adhd is left untreated it can develop into ODD. I first read something to that effect in 2000 in Christopher Green's book called understanding adhd. Barkley's correct in that you don't have ODD without having ADHD first. Much the same as in you don't just get pnumonia - you usually have to have some sort of flu like infection first. As to whether adhd is a gift - the way I see it is that it is what it is. Thanks for the info about the twin KC. Now it makes sense where his drive comes from and why he sees adhd in such a negative way.

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

Did someone way nuts?

Re: I don't get it - and it frustrates me
 

I kind of see things like this: I did not devote years of my life to adhd research. I did not receive the education or the grants to fund such research. I never lost a loved one to adhd. Barkley does have the education and grants. He did lose someone because of adhd. Until I can fund my own research that earns props for its accuracy world wide, I'll just stick to trying to live up to that elusive potential I'm supposed to have. Even though his words are not warm and fuzzy doesn't make them less valid. When my uncle was told he had cancer the doctor was not warm and fuzzy and it didn't make what the doctor said any less important just because he wasn't ready to cuddle with me. I just figure that he probably knows more than me about adhd because the odds are definatly stacked in his favor.