Where do you draw the line?
 

Hi. I'm fairly new here and have read many of the posts and articles. Everything has been very informative and made me to feel better that I am not alone in this. My question is this, how long do you keep putting up with your child when it puts a strain on everyone else in the household and your marriage? Yes we love our kids, yes we want to support them no matter what, yes we want to see them grow and progress but at what cost to everyone else?

I don't want to come off as uncaring or unsupportive but I really feel like I am at my wits end and have no more patience. My almost 19 year old son was diagnosed with adhd and odd 5 years ago. We've tried meds but as he got older refuses to take them and accuses us of drugging him. He has days/weeks where he is great and then bouts of downward spirals. We love him, he is intelligent, he's fun to be around when not out of control but it seems as he gets older those days are fewer. We've been to 5 different therapists and tried what seems like everything under the sun but everything only works for so long. We are tired of being disrespected, blamed, ignored, repeating ourselves and made to feel guilty all the while while he does what he pleases when he feels like it and never an apology.

At this point I am having a really hard time believing he has no control or isn't capable of knowing what he is doing or why. Where is the personal responsibility for the individual and what they are inflicting on other people in the house? How long do we keep ourselves on edge, frustrated and unhappy trying to help him be a happy and productive member of our family and society? Maybe I am just frustrated at the moment but I really feel like I want him out of my house, at least for a while so I can get a sense of normalcy in my own home. Does anyone else every feel this way and what have you done? I can accept him for who he is and his shortcomings but don't know if I can continue to put up with it in my own home. Please help with some suggestions. Thank you.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Welcome, losmuertos21...

I don't have any advice for you (my son is only 10) but I wanted to welcome you and assure you that you are in the right place. :)

Others will chime in who have been in your shoes...

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

I think that's where you draw the line. You need to let him know that his actions are unacceptable and have consequences. Does he have any responsibilities? Does he go to school, have a job? What do you do when he treats you this way?

There are great tips at www.empoweringparents.com

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Remember the 30% rule. He is more like 14 - 15 emotionally and socially. But in a 19 year old body, with 19 year old expectations and pressures.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Do you think that a 14 or 15 year old should be excused for treating his parents disrespectfully?

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

I understand the 30% rule but how long is that an acceptable excuse. Even a 14-15 year old can understand not to take things that don't belong to you, let your parents know where you are at and when to expect you home, get home at the expected time with some regularity and don't call every single time 5 minutes before you are expected home or after you are already late that you forgot, lost track of time, just woke up, etc., can get a few simple chores done daily that are posted on a huge white board in the kitchen, if you need a ride to work please let me know your schedule ahead of time and ask me the night before not an hour before you have to be at work and then i have to rearrange my schedule, etc. Simple basic things like this that we are still having a problem with on a weekly basis and not seeing much progress.

At 19, what consequences can you impose? For example, during the week I ask that he be home by 10:30pm (weekends by 2am) as we work early the next day and I like to lock up house before I go to bed. I don't trust him to give him a key and anyways the dogs bark like crazy when someone comes home and would wake everyone up. After 2 weeks of excuses of not getting home on time, i promptly locked my doors at 10:30 and when he strolled up after eleven I told him my doors were locked for the night and he would have to make other arrangments. My doors would not open up again until the following day and as long as he could follow the house rules. Then he makes me feel guilty because he had to ask one of his friends parents to give him a ride when it should have been me. He was on time for a couple of weeks and now it's starting again.

He just got a job and works about 30 hours a week. He doesn't have a license but has a permit and I encourage him to practice as much as possible and we have an extra car waiting for him to drive it. He just graduated high school by the skin of his teeth and plans to attend community college. I have reminded him politely several times that we will cover gas, books, lab fees, etc. but cannot afford the tuition so he needs to apply for financial aid which we will sign for if we need to. But he continues to put off going to admissions and getting all his paperwork in order. I feel like it will never get done unless I drag him down there and do it for him. But then that doesn't teach him to be self sufficient.

I'm just at a loss as to how long I let him keep hanging around not making any plans, preparing for his future and start making some more responsible decisions. Also what are some ideas for appropriate consequences for a 19 year old for simple things like no food or drinks in the bedrooms (his room and carpet are attrocious) yet week after week I remind him and there is still old food and beverage containers strewn about. How many times do I have to ask? What have others tried with older adult teens that worked. Thanks.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't accommodate him so easily. Why rearrange your schedule to take him to work; let him find another way to get there if he didn't give you enough notice.

If he continues to leave food and drink cartons in his bedroom, lock his bedroom door and don't give him access to his room until he agrees to cleans it up, under your supervision.

Let him experience the natural consequences of his actions. That is the best learning tool.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

ADHD isn’t an excuse for disrespectful behavior, and “attitude” is not tolerated by my family.

But, the symptoms of ADHD can be variable and some things can be worse in some people then others. I have some other things along with my ADHD, like dyslexia and APD so I can’t for sure say what’s going on with your son, but I want to throw out some thoughts.

I am in my early 20’s and still live at home, do not drive yet and need my family’s help a lot. I wish I didn’t but I do. I don’t have too much trouble with my temper or emotional regulation, but I have a terrible time with “time blindness”. I do not feel time going by. This causes me all sorts of problems with being on time for appointments, getting ready on time, getting things done on time.

I am working on using calendars, timers and reminder list, but I am still struggling with this. I also forget my chores – not out of disrespect, but because I just forget or I think I have more time than I do. We are trying to get a routine going and I think I will be better once I can do that.

My mom keeps track of all my appointments. She has them on her computer calendar, and she helps me put them on my computer calendar. She understands that I do not mess these things up on purpose. I am really trying to figure this out but it is very hard. I don’t get time the way other people do and medication isn’t really helping with this. (There are some other threads about time blindness.)

Tomorrow I am doing a job shadow that my mom set up. She did talk to me about it and it is an area I am interested in. I would not have set it up on my own – I just can’t plan and organize yet the way I need to. I can organize and plan things I can do – I know what I will do once I am at the job shadow because I am good at the skill I need to do the job. I feel like there is a hole in part of my brain.

This along with some other things makes me feel really stupid. If my mom did not understand, I would probably be so angry inside and feel so stupid and lost that I would feel hopeless. I’d probably not care if junk stacked up in my room either.

Fortunately my mom does not compare me with her friend’s kids that are finishing college and making it on their own. Actually, a few of her friends have kids like me. One is bi-polar and another ADHD too and they are struggling like me.

It seems that for some of us, things start to come together in our late 20s. I think your son needs to learn some strategies to help him, like setting an alarm on his cell phone to remind him it is time to get home. Like I said, your son should not be disrespectful, but I think you might have to help him more than you think you should for someone his age.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Los Muertos, your comments about your son betray a significant lack of understanding just what adhd is.

Your child is delayed in maturity
Time blind (no he won't see if you're hard on him anymore than a sightless child could see if you snap your fingers)
He has emotional dysregulation
He has a clinical level of forgetfulness
and much much more

Your resentment. frustration and your anger are something you need to deal with, making him responsible for your emotional state will not help you or him. Knowledge is power, he needs more information about what adhd is. He can't manage what he is ignorant of. Nor can you.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

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Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

First, let me say that posts like this are heartbreaking and heartwrenching for me. I have avoided them and I think this is the first time I have ever responded to one.

Second, let me also say that I raised two boys with ADHD who are now happy and successfully living thier lives complete with happy relationships they've been in for 3 and 4 yrs respectively.

Raising teens is difficult for parents who don't have a special needs child, add in ADHD and it's 10x more difficult. All parents expect bad judgement, immature behaviour, back talk etc.. but with ADHD the degree of magnitude is exponentially higher.

Much of the cost to everyone else is not the fault of the child with adhd, it is caused by unrealistic expectations and ignorance. Yes, this child is more difficult but as long as the parents and the child are unaware of what they are dealing with, are skeptical of the childs very real impairments and denial of them there is a recipe for disaster. It will hurt you, it will hurt him.

Maybe it's time to stop 'putting up with it' and start learning about it so you can have a ghost of a chance of managing it and being a real support to your son.

I have no doubt you love your son, and that you've done all you know how to do and with the skills you now have they've reached a limit to breaking point. There are better ways of dealing with him, and there are better ways of helping him to do ok. You need to know this, because there is only heartbreak and guilt for you down the line as you watch your son struggle year after year because he doesn't learn from his mistakes. THAT is the nature of untreated and denied adhd.




He was diagnosed very late so he wasn't able to learn management skills while still quite young and that's unfortunate, it just means it's a bit more difficult for him.

If there is one thing that is so important it is medication treatment for ADHD. Without medication treatment management skills are generally (almost always) unsuccessful. He needs to get to know what he's dealing with and for that to happen successfully he needs parents who take his disorder seriously and learn all they can about it.




People with adhd have ups and downs and it is the inconsistency of the symptoms that cause a lot of skepticism. During the good times we pass for normal, during the bad..we simply don't. People ask themselves, why can he/she do it sometimes and not others. The answers common sense tell them is because he doesn't try, doesn't care, doesn't want to. Nothing could be further from the truth. Your child feels guilty for having a disorder he was born with.

If you can't see the reasons for the inconsistency why would he? He's going to blame himself, he's going to tell himself a hundred times more than you ever think it that he's lazy, no good, uncaring etc... he already has and the only way out of that pit of self loathing is good information. Knowledge is truly power.




I want to be very careful inhow I say this. But how much of what's being 'inflicted' is caused by a negligent attitude to dealing with adhd? People think of ADHD as a trivial disorder, we look at our lovely healthy looking children and we can't see anything wrong with them. Your son is disabled, that's a word that makes parents scoff, makes parents angry, or defeated but it is not opinion, it is a fact. Treating him as if he is not disabled will cause problems. I have no doubt you have done everything you know how to help your son be a happy and productive member of your family and society.

It's not working and throwing him out to get relief for yourself is not the answer. I can't stress this enough. I don't get the sense that you want to do it, just more of a 'wouldn't it be nice' but you are heading in that direction and I can tell you this is a mistake.

It's time to take responsibility, yes it is. He needs to take responsibility and so do you. You can't afford to be ignorant about adhd anymore. You cannot afford to be in denial and there is evidence of a lot of denial in your post.

There isn't a pain greater than watching your child as a young adult flounder, watching as he loses jobs, can't pay his rent, gets evicted and hates himself for it. That self hate can destroy him. It doesn't have to.



The alternative to him being at home, when you know he's not ready is short term pain relief.


Why do you see it as an excuse? This is where I see clear denial. He is 30-40% behind his peers developmentally. That's a fact and adhd is a developmental disorder.

It's hard to understand, and I know this from my own experience. We understand input disorders, when someone can't learn new input easily we recognise them as slow.. or as mentally handicapped. That too is a developmental disorder. Your son also has a developmental disorder and with a range of severity along the same lines. His is an output disorder, meaning that he can learn just fine, that's not the problem, the problem lies in being able to 'do' what you know. Output = performance.

He will always be behind, we don't expect people who are slow or mentally handicapped to one day be normal, we don't see a developmental delay as an excuse. Except when it's an output disorder.






Sure they understand... the problem is.. can they do it? Well, with most teens, they manage to do it enough to keep the parents happy. Parents of all teens complain about these things, you will complain much much more, because with a non-disabled teen each of the items you've listed parents expect and are prepared for a reasonable level of failure to comply. You are too, what you're not prepared for is the failure rate being extreme as it is with your son. Each of the above is an expectation and requires your child to 'do' something. You're not asking too much for a child without Adhd, you're not even asking too much of a child with adhd IF the child is medicated and proper management techniques were put in place. Without these you are wasting your time complaining because he WILL fail to comply with your demands a great deal more than other kids his own age.



How miserable do you want to make YOUR life? Give him a key. You don't trust him with a key but you 'trust/expect' him to be able to be home at a specific time? People with adhd are seriously impaired when it comes to time. The dog is not a good enough reason to lock him out. He will not be able to manage time in the way you expect. People with adhd are blind to time, some more than others, and if he's able to manage it most of the time? He's trying so hard, you should be damned proud of him, because it's beyond my ability to describe hard.





kids are annoying like this.....




ADHD causes problems with initiating action, planning, organizing etc.. .. if you're holding your breath waiting for him to organize himself enough to get the admissions paperwork done without help.. You do need to drag him down there because he needs that asssistance. OR you can break it down in steps but in my own experience.. they'll avoid it because it's new.. it's frightening.. and it's just easier not to think about. Go with him, get the papers or you'll turn blue.

It won't teach him to be self sufficient is a misunderstanding of what your child is dealing with day in and day out. He isn't self sufficient now, he needs help and expecting him to do things normally is off the table.




You need to help him plan for a future because it doesn't even exist to him, that's part of the time blindness.

I'm sorry if I seem unsympathetic, I am sympathetic to you, I know you're agonizing, \I know your angry and frustrated and tired of it all.

It's not going to go away, he needs help.

You do need to learn a LOT more about adhd than you know now.

knowledge and understanding WORK! You need to be on the same team and you're not.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Well, I feel you pain. I really do, with an almost 19 year old son that sounds extremely similar. Remember everyone...this parent has tried to get her child on meds...and they refuse to take it. No wonder she's at her wit's ends. The parent and I both seem to have read alot about ADD, I've read books, gotten books for my child, paid thousands to ADD psychologists...gone just by myself to talk to them, etc.

It is VERY hard to live with these types of teens, the ones that are defiant. It's HARD to feel bad for them, we are only human.

My 2nd son has ADD-inattentive, also. But he's a totally different type. I don't find it difficult to work with him at all. But the ones that defy you, don't take responsibility, blame everone but themselves, won't seek help, don't even act like they are trying (don't even get me started on sneaking out, smoking pot, drinking, lying)...well....we parents only have so much empathy to give.

MIne is getting ready to go to college in a month and personally..I can't wait to get him out of the house. What I'm planning on doing...and he will FIGHT me about this, is making him go to the free tutoring facilities, give me the name of his tutors and I will contact them and make sure he's going. If left to his own devices, he won't do a thing..sleep, party, eat.

If he is put on academic probation, and he probably will be..then what? I also don't like the "coming in whenever they want". We work, it's disruptive and I also want my house locked up before I can rest. I know what everyone is saying...but I'm living in the posters shoes and believe me, it ain't easy with this type of personality (with or without ADD).

Tisha

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

With all due respect Tisha, I too have lived thru it. You say you can see his future, you know he will fail, you say you know about adhd yet you continue to moralize it. As long as your moralizing something hasn`t sunk in yet because this is denial.

I am that personality, so is one of my sons, yes my inattentive son was much much easier but it is not a personality type and it is not defective character. It is adhd, in a severe form.

It is NOT easy that`s for sure. It`s not easy for the child either because he`ll never be able to `move out`and not have to deal with it anymore.

when I say educate yourself, I mean read the research not the merchants who sell books, the hard core hard to read books!

There`s lots of fluff out there about adhd that doesn`t tell parents a smidge of what they need to know but offer plausable advice that often does not work.

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

Ginniebean,

You'll have to forgive me as we just had a terrible day yesterday. Found out he snuck out of the house (again), and found lighters in his pockets. So, I'm not in a very good mood today.

I agree with you that he can't "escape" his ADHD, the way we can in a certain sense. We know that and it brings a profound sadness to our lives.

He was actually diagnosed with ADHD-NOS, as he only has 5 symptoms. He is on meds, doesn't seem to help motivate him to do work, but makes his personality more pleasant to be around. I think he has something else going on that isn't being diagnosed. He's not SCT, as his working memory is very good, and his "speed" can't think of the professional word for it was 115 on his IQ test. But he does have that sluggish personality when not on meds. It's very frustrating not to know exactly what is wrong with him, or know how to help him. He fights us and doesn't seem to want to help himself, only take med (and only when in school). We've tried Career coaching, he hates to see psychologists because "he's not ADD" according to him. He doesn't own this...I guess part of the maturity problems. His is an executive dysfunction problem. I don't know. Listen, I'm getting ready to l eave an won't be logged back on until Monday.

Please..if you have any other words of wisdom (from being this type of personality), what can I do to help him help himself? What gets throught to them?
Tisha

Re: Where do you draw the line?
 

What is his objection to meds? Was it a bad experience? Fear? Peers? Recreational drug use? Have you ever tried sitting down with him and speaking to him as an adult instead of a child, and asking for his opinion on things? Have you asked him what he needs to get his life in order?

Kids are a challenge. I try to talk to them as if they are adults when they are as young as seven, they are more cooperative when you talk to them like an equal as opposed to talking to them like an inferior. I'm not saying that you do this, I don't know, just throwing it out there. Also, have you considered that there could be other disorders at work such as Oppositional Defiant Disorder?