Conversing with others

[fischkudder]

I am not diagnosed yet, but I suppose I have the inattentive type of ADD. I am a dreamer and walking sleeping pill.

Now for my "second" main problem besides the sleepiness all day long: I had trouble socialising with and talking to others. I was quite anxious when I was young, but luckily this improved to the point where I can say I'm comfortable with being with others (groups, too). I still have some trouble reading social cues, but this continually improves as well. So far, so good - when there weren't my "thought blockade".

I can say "hello!" / "how are you?", maybe exchange one, two further sentences and then - bam!. That's it. I never get beyond that point - with family, friends and strangers. Except, of course, when lamenting about little and big problems that make everyday life a pain. I cannot have a casual chat, be it small talk or whatever. It's not like I feel insecure or inhibited. It's just that no words come out.

The best explanation I came up with was that maybe my former (ok, not so former) quietness developed a life of one's own. I guess I just lack sufficient practice. Though practicing is difficult when you cannot properly practice...

Does anyone have a similar problem? How do you deal with it?

Thanks for your thoughts.

[γ-quantum]

same here... its not only that i dont know what to say, its also that i dont know where to look or how to move my hands or whatever. a lot of people seem to do a right muscle exercise in their face when they talk, AND they do gestures with their hands that seem like slapping somebody, praying to god, and drowning, all at the same time, or something.

what i usually do is - plan something. like when i go to a pharmacy to order an odd chemical... i prefer to order it over the internet where no questions are asked, but if i need something immediately, i usually come up with a flowchart: "if person says this, then i say that, else i do blah, etc." - really extensive sometimes, like i spent 15 minutes thinking up a flowchart for a 1 minute conversation.

that doesnt work when something unexpected happens though, or when 'social' questions are asked. like, "how are you?" is just a random saying, and you're always supposed to say "good, and you?" and never explain your health problems. i know that one, but there are lots of other examples, and if i dont have a flowchart, i usually end up looking like a complete dumbarse.

[ndnbutterfly]

Hi and welcome!

[fischkudder]

hi y-quantum!

i know that very well, too. do i look into the right direction? do i make the proper face? do i walk properly? what am i supposed to with my hands? it's like a small devil is sitting on my shoulder and whispering self doubts into my ear.

i cannot say what actually helped me to overcome this. since i have begun my studies at university i slowly improved and these days i am comfortable with being with others. there is a sophistication at university that did not exist at my last school (i.e. less idiots than in school ).

are you on medication? does that improve your speech flow?

sometimes i plan ahead, too. though i am mostly too lazy and afterwards look like an idiot. when i go to bed in the evening i frequently brood about "what if" situations. unfortunately i forget most of my thoughts.


ps: hi ndnbutterfly .

[Goofycook]

I have lots of trouble conversing. Ive given up on trying to be sociable. I am fine when I talk about something I am passionate about but anything else I make a total fool of myself so I usually dont say anything and as a result I feel like the odd man/women out. I just can not make small talk and I could less about famous poeple. I guess I have been in my own world to long.
Having had to supervise poeple for over 20 years I have learned how to communicat what needs to be done and to correct poeple without rubbing them the wrong way. But it has taken alot of seminars and inservices on poeple skills. I still have provlems with the small talk. I guess for an adder we just have to make a conscious effort to fit in because it just doesnt come naturally. Goofycook

[fischkudder]

I am fine when I talk about something I am passionate about but anything else I make a total fool of myself so I usually dont say anything and as a result I feel like the odd man/women out.

that is how i feel, too.

yesterday my mother gave me a simple advice: "read up on typical conversations topics until you are thoroughly familiar with them." this might even help and is not too much effort (i. e. it is easier than changing chatting habits).

[APSJ]

Originally Posted by fischkudder

I can say "hello!" / "how are you?", maybe exchange one, two further sentences and then - bam!. That's it. I never get beyond that point - with family, friends and strangers. Except, of course, when lamenting about little and big problems that make everyday life a pain. I cannot have a casual chat, be it small talk or whatever. It's not like I feel insecure or inhibited. It's just that no words come out.

I have an enormous problem with small talk. I know to say "hello" "fine, you" etc. but I can't go much beyond that. I don't really know how to strike up a conversation with someone. I'm always thinking about something, but its never something appropriate for small talk. Its often some esoteric subject of little interest to most people. I've learned not to have conversations that go like this:

"Hi, how are you?"
"fine, and you?"
"ok"
[long pause]
"So I read that in Germany they're installing insulation on a glacier in one of their parks to slow down its melting. Isn't that interesting? I wonder what its made of? If that works, is it a possible means of fighting global warming? They think that glaciers melting accelerates global warming because glaciers reflect sunlight back into space, I wonder if this material is also reflective? It would have to be easy to produce and cheap to make enough of it to cover a large enough area to affect the global climate. I wonder what kind of impact doing that would have on wildlife? There are not plants on glaciers, so maybe it would be ok. I wonder how much global warming would be slowed if they covered all the glaciers" etc.

The most common subject for small talk, among males anyway, seems to be sports, but no matter how hard I try, I can't muster any enthusiasm or interest in the topic. Perhaps because I moved at a young age from a big city with a bunch of sports teams, to an area in which that city's teams, and their fans, are hated with a vengeance.

Originally Posted by fischkudder

The best explanation I came up with was that maybe my former (ok, not so former) quietness developed a life of one's own. I guess I just lack sufficient practice. Though practicing is difficult when you cannot properly practice...

This was a major factor for me. I moved around a lot when I was a kid.
Being neurologically atypical in a way that is apparent, and being the new kid, together guaranteed that I'd be picked on. I solved this problem by conditioning myself not to react. To anything. It took a long time to undo this conditioning, and when I did, I found that I didn't really know how to interact with people. I have other issues which complicate learning these things, so its a struggle.

Originally Posted by γ-quantum

same here... its not only that i dont know what to say, its also that i dont know where to look or how to move my hands or whatever. a lot of people seem to do a right muscle exercise in their face when they talk, AND they do gestures with their hands that seem like slapping somebody, praying to god, and drowning, all at the same time, or something.

Originally Posted by fischkudder

i know that very well, too. do i look into the right direction? do i make the proper face? do i walk properly? what am i supposed to with my hands? it's like a small devil is sitting on my shoulder and whispering self doubts into my ear.

These are big problems for me, and really complicate casual small talk.
I never know what to do with my hands. Put them on the desk? in my lap? behind my back? flat on the table? Generally, I end up fiddling with them.

I also always seem to unintentionally give off the wrong social cues. For example, I don't naturally smile as my default state. If I'm reasonably happy, apparently I look quite unhappy, unless I constantly remind myself to smile. People often ask what's wrong, apologize to me, or act like I told them to go away, when I was fine and trying to engage in a pleasant conversation.

Originally Posted by γ-quantum

what i usually do is - plan something. like when i go to a pharmacy to order an odd chemical... i prefer to order it over the internet where no questions are asked, but if i need something immediately, i usually come up with a flowchart: "if person says this, then i say that, else i do blah, etc." - really extensive sometimes, like i spent 15 minutes thinking up a flowchart for a 1 minute conversation.

I do this too, particularly for phone calls, but it rarely works. One situation in which I always do this is in returning calls from employers who want to interview me. I write out what to say verbatim, otherwise I completely stumble over my words.

Originally Posted by fischkudder

are you on medication? does that improve your speech flow?

It does for me somewhat, but I still have trouble with everything else(body language, thinking of topics, etc.).

Medication makes it easier for me to interact with people.

It does not help me interact in a socially appropriate manner.

[Fierwing]

Originally Posted by APSJ

I also always seem to unintentionally give off the wrong social cues. For example, I don't naturally smile as my default state. If I'm reasonably happy, apparently I look quite unhappy, unless I constantly remind myself to smile. People often ask what's wrong, apologize to me, or act like I told them to go away, when I was fine and trying to engage in a pleasant conversation.

Me too, me too! (Is it weird that I was so excited to see someone address this?) Lots of people talk about their trouble reading social cues, I always wonder if I am the only one who also has the opposite problem. As if I didn't feel awkward enough on my own, now random people are going to interrupt me in the middle of perfectly happily minding my own business to ask what's wrong with me or why I'm so angry? The worst, I've got to say, is strange men who think "Smile, girl!" is a charming thing to say to someone they've never met. When I was younger (and stupider) I used to actually do it (smile) but now it sort of makes me want to stab somebody in the eye (figuratively, I swear). It's just, hey, maybe I have a reason not to smile. Maybe I just got fired, maybe my dog died, or, maybe, this just happens to be what I look like and you criticizing it is sort of intrusive and pretty offensive. I actually used to practice smiling in the mirror, but of course, that only helps when I am actually thinking about smiling. To make matters worse, at some point I chose to solve this problem:

Originally Posted by APSJ

I never know what to do with my hands. Put them on the desk? in my lap? behind my back? flat on the table? Generally, I end up fiddling with them.

Originally Posted by γ-quantum

... its also that i dont know where to look or how to move my hands or whatever.

...by making an unconscious habit of standing with my arms crossed over my chest. It makes me look really unfriendly, I know. I've spent years trying to stop doing it, but it's really uncomfortable and difficult (the bane of my existence - things you have to remember to think about, but you don't remember you've forgotten if you aren't already thinking about it - How do other people do this stuff?!)

Originally Posted by fischkudder

I can say "hello!" / "how are you?", maybe exchange one, two further sentences and then - bam!. That's it. I never get beyond that point - with family, friends and strangers. ... It's just that no words come out.

I am totally with you Fischkudder. I have exactly the same problem, and you're right: it doesn't matter who it's with or what the subject, when I go to make conversation there's just an enormous gaping void where anything halfway intelligent should be (or hell, most days I would even settle for entirely idiotic, if there's one thing I'm good at by now, it's humorous self-deprecation.) What on earth do you do for that? My doc keeps telling me to just say anything; what I can't seem to get across is that it isn't that I don't have anything good to say, I just don't have anything at all. Not until later, when I spend hours reconstructing how conversations should have gone. (Medication seems to be helping with this part, thank god.) So what else is there? Practice? I think I've had enough practice standing in the middle of a group feeling awkward, thank you. Can't say that it seems to be improving the situation. Unfortunately, even when the subject is something I'm very knowledgeable in or passionate about, it's like my brain breaks down under the pressure of normal conversation and my point just melts into a big puddle of broken logic and faulty reasoning. (Although, wouldn't you know it? 15 minutes later it reverts to making sense and being perfectly relevant.) I do have some luck keeping conversation alive by asking lots of follow up questions - the old "people love to talk about themselves" advice. Unfortunately this only really works on a certain type of person, and tends to get you stuck listening to a long story full of intensely boring crap that you really don't care about all in the name of social acceptability. (But I'm sure everyone here has a really good tolerance for things that aren't fascinating. Right? Anyone?)

Originally Posted by γ-quantum

what i usually do is - plan something.

I try to do this to some extent but I have to use extreme caution, because if I have a sentence all prepared and ready to go, I'll frequently blurt it out even if the real situation has rendered it inappropriate. This happened a lot when I was cashiering in college: whenever my mind would wander, the wrong part of the "script" would come out - as in saying "Thank you" to someone just walking up to the register, or "Hi. How are you?" to someone who has already been greeted and rung up. -- Yeah, try excusing that gracefully.

Originally Posted by APSJ

I solved this problem by conditioning myself not to react. To anything.

Yep, me too on this also. For as long as I can remember, I've had an almost pathological need not to let anyone see if I'm hurt, or embarrassed, or disappointed. This does not lead to healthy, happy relationships. It's also causing me no end of trouble in therapy... I keep skimming over things I should be considering.

Originally Posted by APSJ

The most common subject for small talk, among males anyway, seems to be sports, but no matter how hard I try, I can't muster any enthusiasm or interest in the topic. Perhaps because I moved at a young age from a big city with a bunch of sports teams, to an area in which that city's teams, and their fans, are hated with a vengeance.

I understand (no really, I understand) your disinterest in sports (You mean they just ran around for 1.9 seconds and now they're going to stop, talk about it, line up, and start all over again? And you want to watch this?) but my one piece of actual advice in this post is: If you ever feel even a glimmer of interest, run with it. I got really into college basketball during my first few years of higher education, read every article, watched every game. (What? Like I should have spent my time on homework?) It really is amazing (and really kind of sad) how many social opportunities open to you with a few knowledgeable comments about whatever sport's in season. Sadly, once I moved off campus I could no longer muster enough attention to sit through a whole game, but it was a good few years while it lasted.

Originally Posted by fischkudder

are you on medication? does that improve your speech flow?

Medication helps me with the anxiety component of conversation (can actually interact with people without having to psych myself up, don't endlessly dissect and regret every encounter afterward) and to some extent it also helps me keep my thoughts in order long enough to make a reasonable argument. As far as actually coming up with a steady stream of things to talk about though, unfortunately, not so much.



Ok, I know this has turned into a monstrous rant (See what happens when you poke at people who are conversationally repressed in real life?) but if anyone's still reading, I just have one further thing to ask. When you are involved in a conversation, and you are interested, and you actually think of something to contribute... when the @#*! are you supposed to say it? No one ever actually pauses in conversation (I would know, I majored in linguistics and went to at least half of the classes). By the time there's a discernible break it's well past the point when my prospective comment has any relevance, or if we are still on the same topic, I was paying attention to keep up and have forgotten what I wanted to say. I think this actually might be my number one frustration, I just can't figure out how to go about participating.





PS - Sorry for the blatant abuse of parentheses in this post (and that was only about a third of the ones I wanted to include (... and, I'm doing it again)). I don't know if it's a sign that I don't know how to order my thoughts, or evidence that I read the Princess Bride too many times as a child (plus 1000 points for anyone who actually understands that reference), anyway, apologies to everyone who found my writing convoluted and incomprehensible.

[γ-quantum]

Originally Posted by Fierwing

I try to do this to some extent but I have to use extreme caution, because if I have a sentence all prepared and ready to go, I'll frequently blurt it out even if the real situation has rendered it inappropriate. This happened a lot when I was cashiering in college: whenever my mind would wander, the wrong part of the "script" would come out - as in saying "Thank you" to someone just walking up to the register, or "Hi. How are you?" to someone who has already been greeted and rung up. -- Yeah, try excusing that gracefully.

bwahahaha!
sorry, not laughing about you, but about the silly similar situations i experienced... yeah, like at a cashier! usually it's "hello" -> "hi" then "21.34 please" -> "there you go" then "bye" -> "cya!" or something. if "hi" isnt called e.g. due to the cashier talking to the last customer while already scanning my stuff, i really, REALLY have to be careful not to say HELLO! when asked for the cash, lol... or when i accidently meet somebody in real life, unplanned, and they go "HI", i may just say "WELL" (like, start of a sentece: "well, i thought that...")... or just speak out something i was thinking. "hi" -> "potassium!" -> "eh? what?!". pretty annoying.

Originally Posted by fischkudder

are you on medication? does that improve your speech flow?

yes, i am on ritalin and trying concerta, so basically i'm on methylphenidate.
it doesnt help my speech at all. i even found my linguistic skills were IMPAIRED by it at first.
seems like that got better, though... but i still have no idea what to say in social situations but on the other hand am doing reasonable well talking about one of my favorite subjects... so, i guess, not much of a change overall. i think i could stay on topic a little better though... i'm not sure though, havent had a 'real' (long / in-dept) real life conversation in a while. i know i am still disrupting other people when they speak and i have an idea, though...

[Fierwing]

Quantum (apologies, I can't quote you or check how to spell your screen name while typing from my phone), I just want you to know that you've inspired me... I'd never heard of any ADHD accomadations which I thought would be very helpful for me personally, but now I know what to ask for. From here on out, anyone wishing to interact with me will need to submit a predetermined schedule of conversation, including exact anticipated phrasing and tone of voice (annotations to explaining how to interperet said tone would be helpful but not required). Any deviation from preapproved conversation would legaly require the transgressor to "not hear" any subsequent remarks on my part, or, preferably, to act as though we'd never even met. -- I think this is going to improve my life considerably. Wish me luck!

[fischkudder]

Haha, it is so difficult to talk to others, but at the same time it is so easy to write endless rants about one's daily problems.

By the way, I used to use lot of nested parentheses, too.

Sports:
I also cannot follow games longer than ten to fifteen minutes, before I start to observe the other people, for instance. It is more interesting how the others behave while watching a game - they cheer, they swear, they weep, they suffer. I personally never felt that enthusiasm. Actually I only feel noninvolved. *Snore*. .zZzZ.

Unfortunately I also emanate this lack of passion. So I am just that boring geezer.

Did taking medication let you feel more passion? Not just in sports, but generally?

Fierwing, I often likewise have no idea when to say something in conversations. I am just doing x-ray scattering stuff at university (I am supposed to investigate polymers). I regularly have small questions (the yes-or-no type of question) I would like to ask my tutor, but most of the time he is already talking to someone. When is the best time to interrupt such a conversation without being rude? If I don't "bomb" his conversation, he just keeps on talking and talking. Sometimes I actually feel like being ignored.

[Fierwing]

Originally Posted by fischkudder

Haha, it is so difficult to talk to others, but at the same time it is so easy to write endless rants about one's daily problems.

Yes, a note to self: No playing on the computer after midnight and two glasses of wine - you're probably scaring the others.

Originally Posted by fischkudder

Did taking medication let you feel more passion? Not just in sports, but generally?

Sort of, well, not really... hmm.... I have to think about how to explain that... I take stimulant medication and an antidepressant. Not surprisingly, my interests expanded and I had a lot more desire to participate in life in general as depression lifted, but aside from that, I've found with treatment that I have the mental energy and focus to follow through on things that interest me, which was lacking before. For example, say I loved music and really wanted to play the piano - before, I probably would have messed around with it a little bit, but I never would have put in the time and commitment neccessary to go any further, no matter how much I cared about it. It felt like I never got past a superficial knowledge of anything, which made it hard to define anything as a passion. So I guess the answer to your question is: I don't think that I feel more passion, disregarding the years I was really struggling with depression, but I do feel like treatment helps me act on my passions and interests, which seems like the most important apsect to me.

Originally Posted by fischkudder

Fierwing, I often likewise have no idea when to say something in conversations. ... When is the best time to interrupt such a conversation without being rude? If I don't "bomb" his conversation, he just keeps on talking and talking. Sometimes I actually feel like being ignored.

If you ever figure this part out, then I will make you my new best friend and coerce you into teaching me, because I sure don't know how it works! As far as I know, you just wait and wait for an opening until you've either missed your chance or you can't stand it anymore and just blurt it out.

Originally Posted by fischkudder

By the way, I used to use lot of nested parentheses, too.

Hey! Whole post, no parentheses. I must be on the road to recovery... Now I just have to try not to fall off the wagon.

[fischkudder]

Originally Posted by APSJ

Sort of, well, not really... hmm.... I have to think about how to explain that... I take stimulant medication and an antidepressant. Not surprisingly, my interests expanded and I had a lot more desire to participate in life in general as depression lifted, but aside from that, I've found with treatment that I have the mental energy and focus to follow through on things that interest me, which was lacking before. For example, say I loved music and really wanted to play the piano - before, I probably would have messed around with it a little bit, but I never would have put in the time and commitment neccessary to go any further, no matter how much I cared about it. It felt like I never got past a superficial knowledge of anything, which made it hard to define anything as a passion. So I guess the answer to your question is: I don't think that I feel more passion, disregarding the years I was really struggling with depression, but I do feel like treatment helps me act on my passions and interests, which seems like the most important apsect to me.

Now, that's great. I regularly play guitar (in fact, i love my guitar), but I cannot play for more than half an hour. Especially Saturday and Sunday I often have a lot of time and I would like spend more time playing the guitar, but it just doesn't work..

Sometimes I cook small meals. However cooking is a typically strenuous task. I have to FORCE myself to not just leave the ingredients lieing around and do something else, even if it is only brooding about something.

Yes, this superficial knowledge of topics is pesky. Even if I DO read up topics, I forget most of them after one to two days. Heck, if I'd forget embarassing moments just as quickly..

Originally Posted by APSJ

If you ever figure this part out, then I will make you my new best friend and coerce you into teaching me, because I sure don't know how it works! As far as I know, you just wait and wait for an opening until you've either missed your chance or you can't stand it anymore and just blurt it out.

Some time ago my tutor asked me why I am standing around so "oddly". Thus I decided to be impatient . My current manner is to wait a few seconds and THEN blurt my request out. This still seems to be slightly more tactful at least than blurting it out immediately.

[fischkudder]

I cross my arms a lot too, and I know it makes me look upset, [..]

I hear this often, but I do _not_ think that this is true. I have seen a lot of people that regularly cross their arms and they _do_ look friendly without excessive smiling.

[APSJ]

Originally Posted by Fierwing

I'm curious what you mean by visual memory issues. I don't think I've ever heard that phrase.

According to an evaluation that was done when I was in high-school, I have a significant deficit in "visual working memory" and "visual symbolic decoding". Specifically, my "visual immediate" memory is in the 21st percentile, and my "visual delayed" memory in the 16th. This was with my medication. I was diagnosed with "Learning Disability NOS-Visual Memory Impairment".

I don't entirely understand what all this means, but I have inferred that certain unusual problems I have are connected to these memory issues. One example is that I take an embarrassingly long time to read the time on a standard clock, probably around three seconds. It doesn't sound like much, but if you count to three and imagine someone staring at a clock or watch for that length of time, you can get a sense of how unusual it is.

With regard to reading and sending non-verbal social cues, I think, perhaps incorrectly, that part of my problem is that I usually fail to register others' subtle or quick movements, gestures, or shifts in posture, because of these issues with visual memory.(of course, another big part, as I think I mentioned, is that for a big chunk of my life I never looked at people at all).

This is just speculation, but I've been thinking that in the same way that people often start to talk in a manner resembling those around them without actually deciding to, or even noticing it, people probably start to mirror others body language unconsciously and somewhat automatically. This, of course, cannot happen if their brain never registers or fails to store its observations of others' body language.

Along a similar line, I've wondered if people acquire the ability to communicate nonverbally in at all the same way that they acquire the ability to do so verbally(ie, the way children automatically acquire language.). If there's any similarity, it would fit well with both of my theories as to why I have such trouble with this: isolation during my earlier, possibly more impressionable, years, and the memory issues.

Originally Posted by Fierwing

I do know one other... thumbs hooked in pockets. I think that it's an improvement, but unfortunately, aside from very casual clothes, women's fashion choices for a 26 year old who doesn't want to look older than her mother don't frequently include them. Like you say, if I try to do anything else I spend the entire time feeling uneasily conspicuous. It just occurred to me that I'm really only comfortable when my hands are contained in some way (folded under, pockets, sometimes I sit on them), if they're not I think I tend to do things like fidget with my hair, chew on whatever's in my hand, or pick at my nails. Also not a great impression to be sending out to the universe in general.

For some reason I always forget this one. Yes, it is something of an improvement. It works well with jeans or shorts, but not so well when wearing a suit, which is usually the case when I need to make the best impression. I also tend to fidget with my hands a lot, and it takes a conscious effort to keep them still. I love it when I can wear a coat or jacket so I can keep my hands in the pockets.

Originally Posted by Fierwing

Are you also not ever completely sure what kind of impression you are making? I really have no idea if people generally think well of me, if I'm participating pleasantly in a group or being annoying, or whether I'm being laughed at vs laughed with. I really think that for me, this might be the root of a lot of my social anxiety, feeling, in a sense, blind to any indicators of how things are going.

Yes! And, as I mentioned, those occassions when I feel like I've been doing really well fitting in and being normal, are the ones where I'm most likely to have someone come up to me and point out how odd I am. "Why are you so quiet?" "What happened to you?" "Are you alright?" "Why don't you say anything?" "Did you hurt yourself?"

Originally Posted by Fierwing

Yes, I love the way you put this! I'm going to have to try to remember it. This is the reason I'm thinking of finding a new doctor, as much as I dread the idea. The psych who diagnosed me is great in terms of ADHD, really knowledgeable and well informed, but frankly, what I need in that regard is something more along the lines of suggestions for coping skills and support, which I can find in places besides therapy (here, for example). Where I really probably need the most help is with the social stuff, and him insisting that it will start to get easier if I just force myself to do it is really frustrating. I do force myself to do things that I find uncomfortable, I would be completely unable to function if I didn't, but it doesn't make the next time easier, it's just leaves me rattled and seriously knocks me back if things go badly. I really feel like I spend an hour every time listening to him quote every relevant how to and self help article I've ever read, which doesn't help me figure out how to actually do this stuff. He's the only mental health professional I've ever seen, so I'm not sure if therapy is just not the thing for me, or if he's not that great a counselor. (To be fair, I think we've established that I'm not the world's greatest communicator, perhaps I just haven't been able to make myself clear as far as what would help.)

In isolation, the "practice" advice is incredibly annoying, and in my opinion somewhat insulting. "Gee, avoiding all human contact won't improve my social skills? Thanks! That would never have occurred to me." You don't need a therapist for this, I get this advice anytime I mention these issues to a NT person.

On the other hand, its true in the sense that you can't improve unless you put yourself in these situations, its just that thats not enough, and is counterproductive on its own. I worked on this with my psychiatrist for quite a while, and he gave me the 'practice' advice, but also specific techniques to use, and things to remember when putting myself in these situations. It helped a lot, in that I can carry on a one on one conversation with someone fairly normally(at least as far as what I say, the non-verbal stuff hasn't chagned) provided they initiate it, and can even initiate one myself, although still fairly awkwardly.

When it comes to things like cocktail receptions, or parties, when everyone is standing around in little groups making small talk, I still really don't know how to engage with people. Here is where the 'practice' advice has been least useful. Every time I make myself go to one thinking it will be easier, its not, and each time, I have a harder time getting myself to go. The only solution I've found for this is to bring someone with me. Even if I talk only to them, at least I'm not standing against the wall silently the whole time.

Originally Posted by Fierwing

If your goal is to have interesting and meaningful conversations, then no, it probably doesn't count. If your goal is merely to not stand out as a complete social outcast for ten minutes or so, well, then I say it's serviceable enough. I was probably unfairly harsh in my original comment about this, there are plenty of great people out there who are talkative. It's just that clinging on to people who will let me get away with not holding up my end of the conversation has led me to some really bad choices in the "good" friend and relationship departments. (Although I imagine it's really more a problem of attracting those who are seeking someone reserved enough and desperate enough to appear to hang on their every word and not ever compete for the spotlight, rather than those who just like to talk.)

This can lead to odd relationships. There are a number of people who I know pretty well who know essentially nothing about me except my first name. Oddly, sometimes these people have decided to confide in me about very personal matters.(maybe its not so odd if they've seen that I hardly talk to anyone else)

Originally Posted by Fierwing

This is why I was able to get (marginally) into college sports, but not at all into pros. Most kids play for the same team their whole college career, sometimes after growing up dreaming of playing for the teams their heros played for, and you do see some measure of passion and team loyalty from the players. With pro sports, how can you possibly claim to play for, or care about, a team/city when you may be traded (maybe several times) right in the middle of a season. I really don't get it, but I'm mostly ok with this. (It's sexist, but it's probably a little easier to get away with, being a female.)

Being knowledgeable about, and interested in, sports is definitely more important for males than females, at least where I am. I often hear women express the same view I have about sports, but rarely hear a man admit to it. I don't, I either say nothing or just say I don't follow whatever sport is being discussed "very closely". They only realize what I mean by this when it becomes apparent that I don't know what sport a team plays, or where its from.

Originally Posted by Fierwing

I love things that are very orderly as long as I'm not the one responsible for figuring out how to make them that way. Please, carry on.

Me too! Well said.

Originally Posted by fischkudder

I hear this often, but I do _not_ think that this is true. I have seen a lot of people that regularly cross their arms and they _do_ look friendly without excessive smiling.

Now that I think about it, I've seen this too. I think for me, though, its better to follow a general "don't cross your arms" rule, because it certainly can make one look more angry, and I have enough problems with that already.