Having Troubles in School

[RuthieT]

My daughter will soon be 8 and in the 2nd grade and has been on Concerta for about 9 months now. She has her bad and good days at school, mostly bad. From back talking, to talking to much, to drawing on her desk, being mean to her peers. I am not sure where to go from here with her. Upping dose? Changing meds?
Also, it seems like she does better in a smaller setting with less kids, such as dance class in the evenings once the meds are starting to wear off she does great and pays attention,etc...
What should I do?

[adhdvsaspi]

I too have A 2nd grader with ADHD and have ADHD myself.

She might be helped by an IEP or behavior support plan. however, her behavior has to impact her education this includes citizenship grades. My little one finaly got one at the end of last year. You have to ask in writing! they will say she needs diff meds or other things. School is a BRIGHT STIMULATING PLACE WHERE YOU MUST DO SOMETHING TO GET NOTICED kinda like seeing the world in all caps.

Things that help are; Organization almost to the point of OCD it is calming to know whats next. Exercise (like dancing) help increase blood flow to brain. Helping ease adhd symptoms i even asked my sons teacher not to take recess (a time for exercise) away. He is corrected in other ways like loss of ice-cream money. We ride bikes allot and when we rode bikes to school he had the best week he ever had. I got 1,2 emails a day "He wont follow directions he is not listening. Funny thing he repeats everything she thought he had not herd.

Concerta increases blood flow. It is speed or meth as some may call it. (slow release) Ritalin is the fast acting version and after years I have noticed it becomes less effective. Their are 2 types of meds stimulants and non-stimulants the later calms the hyperactivity. http://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/featur...dication-child this is the link that may help with some information on adhd meds. Each person is different so never change or modify meds without your doctors aproval!

ADHD never goes away most just learn coping skills so meds are not needed. Research is your number one tool. not just internet, but books supported by evidence too. Im 35 and I gave up on meds they work good for a while then when you stop they make you feel like you have Alzheimer I forget everything!! If you can get an IEP be sure to bring a tape recorder. It helps with questions, and the rare chance the school doesn't do what they said they would. With a little help now you can form great study skills and She Will be in college with a 3.89 before you know it!! A psychologist might help with behavior modification.

Best wishes!!

[anticipate]

What other treatment is she receiving. Meds are great, but they are not magic, she needs counseling as well to learn how to control herself.

[LynneC]

Concerta increases blood flow. It is speed or meth as some may call it.

Stimulant medications are not 'Speed' or 'Meth'. They are legal controlled substances used to treat ADHD, as opposed to illegal drugs used to get high. Referring to ADHD meds in this way is not helpful, IMO, although I'm sure you didn't mean to frighten anyone.

[LynneC]

Originally Posted by RuthieT

My daughter will soon be 8 and in the 2nd grade and has been on Concerta for about 9 months now. She has her bad and good days at school, mostly bad. From back talking, to talking to much, to drawing on her desk, being mean to her peers. I am not sure where to go from here with her. Upping dose? Changing meds?
Also, it seems like she does better in a smaller setting with less kids, such as dance class in the evenings once the meds are starting to wear off she does great and pays attention,etc...
What should I do?

Have you reported her recent behavior while taking the Concerta to her dr? Was it initially more effective?

I'd like to direct you to Dizfriz's Corner, which has a wealth of information about ADHD kids and what makes them 'tick', including strategies to manage behavior. Meds work best in conjunction with behavior modification techniques, and you will find this information helpful in that regard.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60130

[Dizfriz]

Not in criticism but just to clarify some points.

Originally Posted by adhdvsaspi

Concerta increases blood flow

It is possible but I have not heard this. The main effective mechanism is that is slows reuptake of dopamine in the synaptic clef.

It is speed or meth as some may call it. (slow release)

It is not meth. Meth is short for Amphetamine which is in the class of drugs such as Adderol. Concerta is Ritalin which is Methylphenidate which acts differently from the Amphetamines. I can understand some of the confusion. The WebMD site made a mistake on that, calling Ritalin an Amphetamine on one place an as Methylphenidate in another. Ritalin (Concerta) is Methylphenidate.

Ritalin is the fast acting version and after years I have noticed it becomes less effective.

This is not all that unusual. Most times this indicates a need for a medication adjustment.

Their are 2 types of meds stimulants

There are two types of stimulants Methylphenidate and Amphetamines, each with all their variations. There are several non stimulant medications with differing degrees of effectiveness.

and non-stimulants the later calms the hyperactivity.

It is not that clear cut. Each person has a different reaction to the medications. There are several genes and parts of the brain involved thus the many different reactions to ADHD medication.

http://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/featur...dication-child this is the link that may help with some information on adhd meds.

Good site with at least one not all that important an error.

Each person is different so never change or modify meds without your doctors approval!

Good advice.

ADHD never goes away most just learn coping skills so meds are not needed.

This is not the way it usually works. ADHD is a life span disorder and the presentation changes over time with hyperactivity becoming less and impulsiveness coming more to the fore. Teaching coping skills is good but for most the problem is not in the skills known but in applying these skills. For the most part ADHD is an output disorder with the individual knowing quite well what they need to do but not being able to do it. There is where the medication helps. It allows someone to use the skills they know.

Research is your number one tool. not just internet, but books supported by evidence too.

Good science based information is the best tool for dealing with ADHD in my opinion.

Im 35 and I gave up on meds they work good for a while then when you stop they make you feel like you have Alzheimer I forget everything!!

This can happen but in this case a change of medication might be explored.

If you can get an IEP be sure to bring a tape recorder. It helps with questions, and the rare chance the school doesn't do what they said they would. With a little help now you can form great study skills and She Will be in college with a 3.89 before you know it!! A psychologist might help with behavior modification.

I wish this were always true but for most this is not the case. You can have great study skills but all to often the ADHDer cannot use them effectively and again, this is where the medications come in. Some are able to function without medication assistance, some are not. Each case is different and very individual.

I like the tone of your post. It just needed to have a few details clarified.

Keep on posting, you have a good attitude.

Dizfriz

[Dizfriz]

Originally Posted by RuthieT

My daughter will soon be 8 and in the 2nd grade and has been on Concerta for about 9 months now. She has her bad and good days at school, mostly bad. From back talking, to talking to much, to drawing on her desk, being mean to her peers. I am not sure where to go from here with her. Upping dose? Changing meds? Also, it seems like she does better in a smaller setting with less kids, such as dance class in the evenings once the meds are starting to wear off she does great and pays attention,etc... What should I do?

There are some things you can do. First, I would talk with the doctor about adjusting medications. If you feel you need more expertise with this come back, this is an oft discussed subject and we can give you a lot of ideas.

As adhdvsaspi mentioned you can set up an IEP for her. The best place to start figuring out how to do this is Wrightslaw http://www.wrightslaw.com/

Also you can do a search on IEP on the forum and see lots of discussion and information on the subject.

This should get you started. Keep reading the forum and come back with any questions or thoughts. We are here to help.

Dizfriz

[Neil Yates]

Psychiatrists Peter Breggin and Sami Timimi oppose pathologizing the symptoms of ADHD. Sami Timimi, who is an NHS child and adolescent psychiatrist, explains ADHD as a social construct rather than an objective 'disorder'. Timimi argues that western society creates stress on families which in turn suggests environmental causes for children expressing the symptoms of ADHD. They also believe that parents who feel they have failed in their parenting responsibilities can use the ADHD label to absolve guilt and self-blame. A common argument against the medical model of ADHD asserts that while the traits that define ADHD exist and may be measurable, they lie within the spectrum of normal healthy human behaviour and are not dysfunctional. However, by definition, in order to diagnose with a mental disorder, symptoms must be interpreted as maladaptive. In America, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-IV) requires that "some impairment from the symptoms is present in two or more settings" and that "there must be clear evidence of significant impairment in social, school, or work functioning" for a diagnosis of ADHD to be made.

[ccom5100]

Studies have shown that sensitivity to food additives (artificial colors, flavors, and petroleum-based preservatives) can cause or increase adhd-like behaviors. We have been able to control our 12 year old's adhd symptoms with a small dosage of a non-stimulant med in conjunction with an additive-free diet. When we tried Concerta, it made him mean, so we took him off it immediately. We also found that high fructose corn syrup made him angry and mean.

Here's an article from ADDitude magazine that you might find interesting.
http://www.additudemag.com/adhd/article/2991.html

[LynneC]

Originally Posted by Neil Yates

Psychiatrists Peter Breggin and Sami Timimi oppose pathologizing the symptoms of ADHD. Sami Timimi, who is an NHS child and adolescent psychiatrist, explains ADHD as a social construct rather than an objective 'disorder'. Timimi argues that western society creates stress on families which in turn suggests environmental causes for children expressing the symptoms of ADHD. They also believe that parents who feel they have failed in their parenting responsibilities can use the ADHD label to absolve guilt and self-blame. A common argument against the medical model of ADHD asserts that while the traits that define ADHD exist and may be measurable, they lie within the spectrum of normal healthy human behaviour and are not dysfunctional. However, by definition, in order to diagnose with a mental disorder, symptoms must be interpreted as maladaptive. In America, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-IV) requires that "some impairment from the symptoms is present in two or more settings" and that "there must be clear evidence of significant impairment in social, school, or work functioning" for a diagnosis of ADHD to be made.

And your point is?? I'm missing the relevence here to the OP's questions...

[Dizfriz]

Originally Posted by Neil Yates

Psychiatrists Peter Breggin and Sami Timimi oppose pathologizing the symptoms of ADHD. Sami Timimi, who is an NHS child and adolescent psychiatrist, explains ADHD as a social construct rather than an objective 'disorder'. Timimi argues that western society creates stress on families which in turn suggests environmental causes for children expressing the symptoms of ADHD. They also believe that parents who feel they have failed in their parenting responsibilities can use the ADHD label to absolve guilt and self-blame. A common argument against the medical model of ADHD asserts that while the traits that define ADHD exist and may be measurable, they lie within the spectrum of normal healthy human behaviour and are not dysfunctional. However, by definition, in order to diagnose with a mental disorder, symptoms must be interpreted as maladaptive. In America, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-IV) requires that "some impairment from the symptoms is present in two or more settings" and that "there must be clear evidence of significant impairment in social, school, or work functioning" for a diagnosis of ADHD to be made.

Sigh, I could take this apart item by item but I will not. It isn't worth the effort. It should suffice to say that both Breggin and Timini are connected with Scientology which is probably the worst possible source of accurate information on ADHD.

Dizfriz

[Codykins]

Originally Posted by RuthieT

My daughter will soon be 8 and in the 2nd grade and has been on Concerta for about 9 months now. She has her bad and good days at school, mostly bad. From back talking, to talking to much, to drawing on her desk, being mean to her peers. I am not sure where to go from here with her. Upping dose? Changing meds?
Also, it seems like she does better in a smaller setting with less kids, such as dance class in the evenings once the meds are starting to wear off she does great and pays attention,etc...
What should I do?

This is when I count on my son's developmental pediatrician to dertemine a good course of action. I give her the facts and she makes the call. We have never needed a change of meds but dose adjustment 3X's in 3 years.

But each time she does this we always talk about the fact that there is other meds that might work differently for him.

Do you have a specialist who is managing her care? You need to engage them so they know whats going on. My Dr. Would not find what you discribe as satisfactory and would be recommending other trials whether it be dose or med changes.

If I were you I would let her Dr. know she is still struggling.

[Harrier]

Its hard to give advice without knowing your child: meds are only one tool in the box. Behavior plans can be a great motivator if her teacher is game.

RtI is a work in progress, more in some places than others. If your school has an RtI or PST team, you could talk to your teacher about a referral. I meet with ours for certain grade levels and we brainstorm ideas that are best-practice and measurable.

[CrazyLazyGal]

It's clear that the Concerta isn't working well enough and that she needs a change in medications and/or dosages. Quite frankly, if the doctor has kept her on it for 9 months without it working well, I question the doctor.

Originally Posted by Dizfriz

Meth is short for Amphetamine which is in the class of drugs such as Adderol.

Actually, in everyday language in the US, "meth" refers to methamphetamine, an illegal drug.

Adderall is an amphetamine chemical. That scares people because they think of methamphetamine when in fact they're very different. Vicks Vapor Inhaler, the little stick you buy over the counter, is also an amphetamine

[Codykins]

I found this.

Difference Between Methamphetamine vs. Amphetamine

While amphetamine and methamphetamine are quite similar in many ways, having basically the same effects. It is worth noting that methamphetamine breaks down into amphetamine when it is metabolized. This means that meth turns into amphetamine in the body, and is excreted as amphetamine. The presence of amphetamine in the urine is often used as an indication of methamphetamine use as well. The main difference between methamphetamine and amphetamine comes in the way that these drugs are processed, and this changes the way that they interact with the body.

Amphetamine is known as methylated phenylethylamine. Methamphetamine is the same thing, but it is double methylated, instead of only methylated once. It's this process of double methylation that makes the difference between methamphetamin and amphetamine. Amphetamine can be prescribed in various drugs to treat specific problems, but methamphetamine is considered too dangerous to be prescribed for use. Because of the double methylation, meth has a stronger effect on the body, and acts quite quickly. Additionally, meth is fairly inexpensive, and can be made by amateurs who mix cough medicine with hydriodic acid.

Neither of these drugs is particularly safe, even though amphetamine is used in prescriptions -- and even sometimes to help keep soldiers alert. However, when used as directed amphetamines can be helpful for some medical conditions; methamphetamine should never be used in such a manner, since it is so dangerous.