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  #376  
Old 04-26-12, 09:24 PM
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Re: A powerful logical refutation of the genetic causation of ADHD.

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Originally Posted by oneup View Post
a little bit a sun, some exercise, a good diet, and living right--things that will help treat many of the diseases of the mind, body and soul.
I never would have thought that extolling such simple positive measures would be met with such a critical response. Again, I'm not trying to tell anyone to flush their meds. The mis-characterizations of my viewpoints and others who have posted about nutrition is getting to the point that I wonder if some of it is being done on purpose.

If you just want to take medication, do that. If that's working for you with nothing else, great! I'm jealous actually. Some of us have to combine different strategies. I know for me, if I don't exercise, my brain doesn't work right, meds or no meds. Whether this is somehow related to Adhd, I don't know, to me it doesn't really matter why.
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  #377  
Old 04-26-12, 09:25 PM
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Re: A powerful logical refutation of the genetic causation of ADHD.

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Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
Maintenance = keeps us at our base level so we don't get worse.

Treatment = improves our functioning above base level.

And no, medication is not the only treatment that seems helpful.
Research indicates that Omega 3 fish oil is helpful for some ADHDers.
Research indicates that neuro-feedback is helpful for some ADHDers.
Therapy boosts the benefits of any treatment, but doesn't do much on it's own.

I hope that makes sense now.

Where do I find information on the base level thing?
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  #378  
Old 04-26-12, 11:43 PM
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Re: A powerful logical refutation of the genetic causation of ADHD.

In regard to the opening post,

in my opinion,

I think 50% genetic : 50% phenetic is a fair representation of ADHD causation factors.

Not 100% genetic.

Not 100% phenetic


And I think plus or minus 30%,

is a accurate representation of average ADHDers capabilities.

+/- 30 % Rule,

70%-------100%-------130%

Homeostasis for self regulation?

100 % being average,

Treatment and Accommodation,

can help some ADHDers excel,

above the average population.
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  #379  
Old 04-27-12, 06:09 AM
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Re: A powerful logical refutation of the genetic causation of ADHD.

According to the research 80% of adhd cases are genetic and 20% of adhd cases are not. I can't post links but the info is out there and the majority of experts from all countries agree. I am surprised that one of the most irrefutable medical findings of our time is actually being challenged here. Next thing you know we'll be arguing as to whether the world is flat.

Healthy lifestyle can assist in the management of adhd but does not cure it. One day I hope to manage my adhd without medication.
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  #380  
Old 04-27-12, 06:17 AM
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Re: A powerful logical refutation of the genetic causation of ADHD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oneup View Post
I never would have thought that extolling such simple positive measures would be met with such a critical response. Again, I'm not trying to tell anyone to flush their meds. The mis-characterizations of my viewpoints and others who have posted about nutrition is getting to the point that I wonder if some of it is being done on purpose.

If you just want to take medication, do that. If that's working for you with nothing else, great! I'm jealous actually. Some of us have to combine different strategies. I know for me, if I don't exercise, my brain doesn't work right, meds or no meds. Whether this is somehow related to Adhd, I don't know, to me it doesn't really matter why.
I have stayed out of this thread because I just didn't feel intelligent enough to participate. If I understand the overall points my take is diet and excersise are wonderful as a way to enhance ones treatment with medication and for those with less impairment its hot impossible for it to be the only treatment you need. BUT saying that its as good as or better than a well studied first line of treatment is where I think the wires get crossed. No one has said "you're such a fool! Don't excersise and eat right it doesn't work " what people have seemed to be saying is "if it works for you great but medication works better for me ". An I understanding those points right? I think thats what I'm hearing. I guess I just see a difference of opinion not an alp out war ....ok ..I'm going back ti my play pen now ...
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  #381  
Old 04-27-12, 08:57 AM
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Re: A powerful logical refutation of the genetic causation of ADHD.

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Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
I have stayed out of this thread because I just didn't feel intelligent enough to participate.
Clearly not true, Sarah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
If I understand the overall points my take is diet and excersise are wonderful as a way to enhance ones treatment with medication and for those with less impairment its hot impossible for it to be the only treatment you need. BUT saying that its as good as or better than a well studied first line of treatment is where I think the wires get crossed.
I think that's the gist of it.
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  #382  
Old 04-27-12, 09:11 AM
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Re: A powerful logical refutation of the genetic causation of ADHD.

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Originally Posted by tudorose View Post
According to the research 80% of adhd cases are genetic and 20% of adhd cases are not. I can't post links but the info is out there and the majority of experts from all countries agree. I am surprised that one of the most irrefutable medical findings of our time is actually being challenged here. Next thing you know we'll be arguing as to whether the world is flat.

Healthy lifestyle can assist in the management of adhd but does not cure it. One day I hope to manage my adhd without medication.
I'm in the process of reading "The Bipolar Child" by Dr. Dimitri Papalos.
One chapter is about genetics and epigenitics. Research has been done among the Amish
concerning Bipolar, ADHD and Alcoholism.

If their lifestyle does nothing to prevent these mental disorders, but does seem to mitigate
them somewhat, that seems to show that both genetics and epigenetics play a part in how
impairing the disorder becomes, but environment does not prevent the disorders from occuring.

He goes further to say that the research, especially in twin studies, shows that while most
genetic mutations are part of the evolutionary process, some mutations cause diseases
and disorders. ADHD and it's mental health cousins are not necessarily part of some master
plan to improve the human race.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
I have stayed out of this thread because I just didn't feel intelligent enough to participate. If I understand the overall points my take is diet and excersise are wonderful as a way to enhance ones treatment with medication and for those with less impairment its hot impossible for it to be the only treatment you need. BUT saying that its as good as or better than a well studied first line of treatment is where I think the wires get crossed. No one has said "you're such a fool! Don't excersise and eat right it doesn't work " what people have seemed to be saying is "if it works for you great but medication works better for me ". An I understanding those points right? I think thats what I'm hearing. I guess I just see a difference of opinion not an alp out war ....ok ..I'm going back ti my play pen now ...
For me, it comes down to the research showing that medication (plus therapy)
has a proven track record that hasn't been shown by diet + sleep + exercise.
While deficits in those areas can definately make impairments much worse,
they do not have any part in the causation.
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  #383  
Old 04-27-12, 09:13 AM
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Re: A powerful logical refutation of the genetic causation of ADHD.

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Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
If their lifestyle does nothing to prevent these mental disorders, but does seem to mitigate
them somewhat, that seems to show that both genetics and epigenetics play a part in how
impairing the disorder becomes, but environment does not prevent the disorders from occuring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
For me, it comes down to the research showing that medication (plus therapy)
has a proven track record that hasn't been shown by diet + sleep + exercise.
While deficits in those areas can definately make impairments much worse,
they do not have any part in the causation.
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  #384  
Old 04-27-12, 09:36 AM
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Re: A powerful logical refutation of the genetic causation of ADHD.

For me (my son, really) I want to explore all avenues that may help him to better manage his ADHD. First line treatment for him is stimulant medication and utilization by me of behavior modification techniques.

As adjuncts, then comes fish oil and perhaps other supplements (zinc, etc), a diet that focuses on eating real food (and we do struggle with this at times), reduction/elimination of AFC's and preservatives, exercise and just being outside in a natural setting.

Can I term these adjuncts 'treatments'? It's symantics, in my view. Individually, non of what I mentioned above (including the use of stimulant medication by itself) is sufficient to control his ADHD symptoms. The best results, for him, come from a combination of all of those things I mentioned. The entire holistic package is 'treating' his ADHD. JMO, of course...
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  #385  
Old 04-27-12, 10:55 AM
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Re: A powerful logical refutation of the genetic causation of ADHD.

I would like see to research to actually show that ADHD is totally genetic?

And how a person can get ADHD "genetically"?

I think 50 : 50 phenetic/genetic causation is a fair argument and representation of all ADHDers.

I use medication and other treatments for ADHD.

Barkley says that aquired ADHD could be approx 33.3 %.(not of the genetic variety)

I find some of these one sided arguments on this topic,

ignorant and selfish.

Think about it?

if 33.3% of people with ADHD do not have any predisposed genetic influence.

Where do these people belong in some of ideas that are being presented in is thread?

Anybody who tells me that the word treatment is only medication,

and that it is a totally genetic disorder,

is not representing all ADHDers,

if any?
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Last edited by Peripheral; 04-27-12 at 11:06 AM..
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  #386  
Old 04-27-12, 12:33 PM
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Re: A powerful logical refutation of the genetic causation of ADHD.

I have an article downloaded on my phone but it's too big to attach. It actually lists the genes and refers to the study. It's called 'global consensus on adhd/hkd' by the global adhd working group.

Last edited by tudorose; 04-27-12 at 12:37 PM.. Reason: missed some letters
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  #387  
Old 04-27-12, 12:50 PM
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Re: A powerful logical refutation of the genetic causation of ADHD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
For me, it comes down to the research showing that medication (plus therapy)
has a proven track record that hasn't been shown by diet + sleep + exercise.
I agree, but there are some small studies potentially showing the benefits of exercise. Here is a link to a recent one A Physical Activity Program
Improves Behavior and Cognitive Functions in Children With ADHD:
An Exploratory Study

http://www.doctornewmark.com/article...ogram-ADHD.pdf

Here is a link to a paper on the treatment of teen adhd by Barkley where referring to exercise he says "Further and more rigorous study of this relatively harmless, socially acceptable form of treatment for teens with ADHD that has a benign profile of side effects seems in order."

http://www.russellbarkley.org/images...ens%202004.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunacie View Post
While deficits in those areas can definately make impairments much worse, they do not have any part in the causation.
I also agree with that statement - but for me, my level of impairment is what I care about. I can't change the fact that I and my children have adhd but I can do everything possible to mitigate our level of impairment.

Even if there are not rigorous studies showing the benefits of exercise on adhd directly, there are studies showing its benefit of stress reduction. When I have high levels of stress my adhd symptoms and impairments are worse.
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  #388  
Old 04-27-12, 01:03 PM
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Re: A powerful logical refutation of the genetic causation of ADHD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tudorose View Post
I have an article downloaded on my phone but it's too big to attach. It actually lists the genes and refers to the study. It's called 'global consensus on adhd/hkd' by the global adhd working group.
I don't argue against genetic factors.

There are many factors in a process as complex as the development of ADHD.

The different gene's roles are very important in explaining part of the development of ADHD.


ADHD is called a Neurological Development Disorder.

Genes have a role in Neurology.

A bunch of genes that might play a role in the development ADHD,

a neurological disorder.

33.3 % of people with ADHD don't seem to have those genes.

I am not sure if anybody with ADHD has them all?

Or some theme?

I am not speaking against a genetic role in ADHD,

I am speaking about some of all the other parts that contribute to developing a neurological disorder.

There are so many parts to ADHD.

I wonder if anybody is interested in discussing how the neurological development part works?

( there will be genetics involved.)
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Old 04-27-12, 01:22 PM
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Re: A powerful logical refutation of the genetic causation of ADHD.

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I agree, but there are some small studies potentially showing the benefits of exercise. .
I remember Barkley saying in one of his workshops that aerobic exercise raises dopamine levels and thus is specifically helpful for ADHD individuals and could be seen as a valid short term treatment. By my memory, he reported the increase lasting for about a half hour. I have not looked at the research on this but it seems very likely to be helpful.

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  #390  
Old 04-27-12, 01:35 PM
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Re: A powerful logical refutation of the genetic causation of ADHD.

The problem, Geronimoo, is that the heritability of ADD has been shown to be upwards of 80% statistically, by comparing cases in which family members also have ADD (especially parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles) and those in which no other family members have been diagnosed. There's a margin for error that actually favors a higher percentage, because the non-genetic cases include both family members who do not have ADD and family members who did not receive diagnoses (but might actually have had it!)

That is the reason that it's considered genetic, not because a gene or set of genes has been found that relates directly to ADD. If we find an epigenetic trait that appears after development that is either causative or confers a sensitivity to something that methylates histones to cause ADD, that's still inherited genetics. If we find that an endogenous retrovirus is common in the DNA or RNA of even specific structures of the brain in people with ADD, that's still inherited genetics. It hasn't been pinned down yet what in our brains makes us have the ADD symptoms, and that makes it harder to track down what caused us to have the disorder in the first place, but we do know that it almost never shows up without some other relative/ancestor having had it already.

Oneup, unfortunately, you're coming in fresh to a group of people who've been told quite often already that ADD is fake, that all we need is more spanking, self discipline, exercise, you name it, and it'll go away. When you know that none of that is true, you sometimes get this knee-jerk reaction that sounds more oppositional than it really is.

No intelligent person is going to say that positive behavioral changes or healthier eating and exercising habits have no impact whatsoever. I know from my experience and that of many others that ADD kids who are raised with the right attitude of acceptance and support from the adults around them have a much easier time coping with their ADD than those of us who were beaten and berated! In fact, a parent who simply gets a prescription for her child and does nothing else does not have an attitude that gets a lot of respect around here. A pet phrase on the forums is "pills plus skills," which means that we know that meds are not a magic bullet.

So don't take it personally - nobody's criticizing the idea that we should get out and exercise and eat healthy food. And nobody's criticizing the idea that we should help children modify their behaviors whether or not they're medicated, either. What is subject to criticism is that ADD could be caused or cured by the presence or absence of these.
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