Does "nothing" really exist?

[Conman]

this sounds like a question to ask Stephen Hawking (AKA Stephen Hawkwing, or Stephen Hawkman).

i think you might be overthinking the concept of "nothing". nothing means what we automatically assume to be material object or possession to own. like an empty room has 'nothing' in it. very few people think everything literally and would say "actually the room is still full of air, possibly dust, and various particles of...". seriously, maybe 1 person out of 100,000 would think that far automatically and actually say it out loud

[Spacemaster]

The beauty of nothingness is that when you have nothing, there is room for SOMEthing. In order for something to be, there first has to be nothing. A cup is useless if it is just a cylindrical block, it's usefulness is in its emptiness.

I don't quite know what I'm trying to get at. I guess I'm not taking the scientific route on this one, and I'm rather mentally shot right now...

[βĩο₱Ħعℓĩᶏ]

Originally Posted by Fraser_0762

You're right.

Like, theres "nothing" in my bank account.

Ugh. Money. Even when there is money in my bank account, I'm not convinced that it's actually nothing real.

Originally Posted by TheChemicals

Its exists because i have felt it.

Do you believe everything you feel?

Originally Posted by Spacemaster

The beauty of nothingness is that when you have nothing, there is room for SOMEthing. In order for something to be, there first has to be nothing. A cup is useless if it is just a cylindrical block, it's usefulness is in its emptiness.

I don't quite know what I'm trying to get at. I guess I'm not taking the scientific route on this one, and I'm rather mentally shot right now...

Nothingness and emptiness are not the same... You're on a good track though.

[Massari]

Originally Posted by Spacemaster

In order for something to be, there first has to be nothing.

Take your body for example. You are, and before you were, there was something right, you didn't come from nothing. The atoms in your body are a billion years old, you didn't exactly spark into existence from nothing. With the universe it's the same except unlike your body for whom we know exactly where it comes from, for the Universe we don't.

[purpleToes]

If Nothing is functioning correctly, it should not exist.

[sighduck]

scientifically in order for nothing to be in a place it has to be free off all radiation, thus have a temperature of 0 kelvin, such a place has not yet been found or created

[Fuzzy12]

Originally Posted by Massari

Take your body for example. You are, and before you were, there was something right, you didn't come from nothing. The atoms in your body are a billion years old, you didn't exactly spark into existence from nothing. With the universe it's the same except unlike your body for whom we know exactly where it comes from, for the Universe we don't.

I've always loved the law of conservation of energy:

"Energy can neither be destroyed nor created but can only be transformed from one form to another".

I know, there is a similar law of conservation of charge and maybe this applies to everything: Nothing can be created nor destroyed.

With the universe it's the same except unlike your body for whom we know exactly where it comes from, for the Universe we don't

I don't know enough about physics but I find it difficult to grasp the whole concept of "Beginning". It always throws up the question of "What was there before the Beginning??" There had to be something because something can't be created out of nothing. Which would mean infinity. Infinite in both space and time but again I struggle with that concept too.

[sighduck]

human mind is too limited to comprehend such things, i rate

[TheChemicals]

I brought this topic up when i was 15 among friends. If we are talking about it then its definatly existing. It affects things.

You couldnt drive a ship into nothingness even in theory methinks, i would assume many layers of "things unfathomable" would "exist" on your rocketship voyage to "nothingness". I would assume those obstacles would crush any ship or human invented idea, Making it impossible to ever discover or arrive to such a place.

[sarek]

Originally Posted by sighduck

scientifically in order for nothing to be in a place it has to be free off all radiation, thus have a temperature of 0 kelvin, such a place has not yet been found or created

That is because its not a place as such. It is the sum of all times and places and exists only in that way.

There is no such thing as an isolated 'nothing'.

Nothing, like everything which is its siamese twin brother, has to be all encompassing for it to exist.

I do not believe the human mind is incapable of comprehending this. We may be incapable of comprehending it on a strictly logical level, just as the Tao which can be talked about can not be the real Tao. But our brains are quite capable of encompassing the concept of nothingness.

[Massari]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy12

I don't know enough about physics but I find it difficult to grasp the whole concept of "Beginning". It always throws up the question of "What was there before the Beginning??"

The word "beginning" cannot describe existence because beginning is related to time and time is not something constant. For example, if you board a spaceship and reach 99.9% of the speed of light and travel around the Earth for a day, when you go back to Earth, you would be in something like the year 2113, and if you go at 99.99% of the speed of light, a few hours on board of the ship would equal a few 1000 years on Earth. So the speed of light is limiting because you don't need to go any faster since you can exist the whole universe within hours if you don't hit something ^_^

So the speed of light is a limit only for the observer, but for the person traveling close to the speed of light there is no limit since the time keeps slowing down as you get closer to the limiting speed, so it gives you the impression that the ship undergoes faster than light jumps.

Originally Posted by Fuzzy12

There had to be something because something can't be created out of nothing. Which would mean infinity. Infinite in both space and time but again I struggle with that concept too.

Ok, Imagine that "nothing" existed and that you travel to the "edge of the Universe" where past that point there's "nothing". Since beyond that point there is no space and time, your ship would stop going forwards without giving you any clue it stopped so you wouldn't notice it. For your ship to exist outside the Universe, you need both space and time. If only one is missing you can't proceed.

In reality you will never reach that point because the expansion of the Universe is accelerating so you cannot "catch" a galaxy, you can only faster than light jump within your own galaxy but every time you jump, the entire galaxy ages by the amounts of light years you travel so unless you want all the stars to die and be left alone in the dark you're better off to stay put ^_^

[TheChemicals]

Originally Posted by βĩο₱Ħعℓĩᶏ

Do you believe everything you feel?

Yes. All feelings we experience are real. Feelings can runamuck and trick us but they are truthful reactions in our bodies/minds imo.

I have had times in my life when i think of the universe (sober, not on anything) and i catch these glimpses in the form of thoughts and emotions that i cant explain in words but the "understanding" (for lack of a better word) has expressed itself to me.

The same has happened for nothingness. We can only compare it to our human experience because we know nothing beyond that. I can only compare it to words like dry/death/unbearable/blank/dull/impassable/inert. Im sure any living being that eats and drinks and has life would inherently understand nothingness through its own emotions like a dog would be fearful if faced with nothingness. I suppose it all sounds silly when using words and unscientific formulae.

[sarek]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy12

I don't know enough about physics but I find it difficult to grasp the whole concept of "Beginning". It always throws up the question of "What was there before the Beginning??" There had to be something because something can't be created out of nothing. Which would mean infinity. Infinite in both space and time but again I struggle with that concept too.

Actually, something can most assuredly be created out of nothing provided the net energy gain or loss is zero.
There is a parallel in the energy of a cannon ball which is shot from a cannon straight up into the sky. At all points of its trajectory the sum total of kinetic energy and potential energy remains the same. There is no net change in energy from the moment its fired until the moment it hits the ground again(abstracting from air friction of course)

There is a more complicated parallel to be found in the origins of our own 'personal' universe(which may not be the only one).
The uncertainty laws of Heisenberg state that if something is created out of the quantum vacuum there is a direct relation between its expected lifespan and the sum total of its energy. The lower the total energy, the longer it can exist within the constraints of the Heisenberg equations.
As far as we can tell, and not counting the as yet unexplained additional acceleration that has been observed, the total gravitational energy contained within the mass of our universe is very close to the total energy contained in its momentum.

[βĩο₱Ħعℓĩᶏ]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/peggy/25-existentialist-animals

Originally Posted by sarek

That is because its not a place as such. It is the sum of all times and places and exists only in that way.

There is no such thing as an isolated 'nothing'.

Nothing, like everything which is its siamese twin brother, has to be all encompassing for it to exist.

"When we are dealing with human beings, no truth has reality by itself; it is always dependent upon the reality of the immediate relationship." (Rollo May)

Originally Posted by TheChemicals

Yes. All feelings we experience are real. Feelings can runamuck and trick us but they are truthful reactions in our bodies/minds imo.

I have had times in my life when i think of the universe (sober, not on anything) and i catch these glimpses in the form of thoughts and emotions that i cant explain in words but the "understanding" (for lack of a better word) has expressed itself to me.

The same has happened for nothingness. We can only compare it to our human experience because we know nothing beyond that. I can only compare it to words like dry/death/unbearable/blank/dull/impassable/inert. Im sure any living being that eats and drinks and has life would inherently understand nothingness through its own emotions like a dog would be fearful if faced with nothingness. I suppose it all sounds silly when using words and unscientific formulae.

I agree insofar that feelings are concrete, given there is a physical basis from which they come. I don't think using the term "truthful" is helpful, unless it is meant to describe etiology and perceptual reality of having the feeling, rather than applying "truth" to the beliefs one draws from life because of such perceptual reality.

[ginniebean]

Originally Posted by βĩο₱Ħعℓĩᶏ

I agree insofar that feelings are concrete, given there is a physical basis from which they come. I don't think using the term "truthful" is helpful, unless it is meant to describe etiology and perceptual reality of having the feeling, rather than applying "truth" to the beliefs one draws from life because of such perceptual reality.

It's possible to speak the truth of our experience. It seems an absurdity to mire ourselves in some post modern philosophical cul de sac. I forget who said it but there is a quote that goes something like 'truth is that which remains when belief ends'.


Sense impressions happen even when we don't perceive them and they can and do have an effect. Perception narrows the frame and it's been my experience that it's possible to see without thought which changes invariably leads to having a perception.

As an example, a parent may see their child is in danger and simple act, thought is slower than the ability to see an event and slower than our ability to act.(which is why we have impulse issues).

When we throw the truth out with the bathwater we leave ourselves to the mercy of a confusing array of conceptualizations. I've had the experience of my own emptiness or nothingness and I've seen that same experience written of by others from time to time on this forum.

I don't need to set up a belief system around it, truthfully I can say, "I don't know nothing" And possibly just as truthfully say, "I don't know that I don't know nothing".

That's my no cents worth.