Is this adhd behavior or something else?

[qanda]

An acquaintance has a son (3rd grade) who has some unusual, and even alarming behaviors. She says he was just diagnosed Adhd (and I THINK she is giving meds), but I question if this is typical behavior of adhd.

This child pulled his "you know what" out of the top of his pants while we were watching a parade. My daughter had to tell his mom.
At a picnic, he put his cookie down his pants, then pulled it out and was throwing it at the kids. Then he tried to put his boogers on the kids.

The boys older sister is a really nice girl, but she has no tolerance for her younger brother. Her other brother, who is even younger, she is very nice to and very willing to play with.

Her one brother is constantly misbehaving. When this girls mom reprimanded her by saying "do not handle his behavior, but instead you come and tell me", you could see the frustration and disgust on the daughters face. She answered "Yeah, sure you will".
I have no doubt parenting this child is a huge challenge.

The parent seems unaware that her sons behavior should be a huge concern for her. She complains the school always blames her son for things and mentioned one time when a video proved he did nothing wrong. I think he must misbehave often at school based on what I see. I'm thinking, what favors are you doing your son. She thinks he will be the most successful out of all her kids. What?????? I would guess he has no friends and annoys every kids he is around.

Are these adhd behaviors? I think a proper diagnose is important to help him be successful.

[ginniebean]

Yes, they are ADHD behaviour. Inappropriate social behaviour, there's nothing psychotic about this, just a whole lot of poor judgement and impulsivity

[LynneC]

Originally Posted by ginniebean

Yes, they are ADHD behaviour. Inappropriate social behaviour, there's nothing psychotic about this, just a whole lot of poor judgement and impulsivity

This behavior can be very rewarding also, if it gets a reaction from people. Doesn't matter that the reaction is annoyance or disgust; it's still a reaction.

qanda, if her son has been diagnosed with ADHD, maybe you could refer her to ADD Forums, and especially to Dizfriz's Corner, which has lots of good information about dealing with behavior issues...

[sarahsweets]

My son was facisinated with his penis..it was just as fun as his action figures. All we did was remind him over and over and over that touching his private parts was ok, they were his but that it had to be done in private..not that I wanted to think about him doing this but I think that if I had this funny little thing swinging around and i was 8, I probably woulf play around with it too. Its an adhd thing.

[qanda]

I found out from a friend of the mom she does not medicate on weekends. If I see her again I will mention this site.

[beltoller]

Originally Posted by qanda

... but I question if this is typical behavior of adhd.

This child pulled his "you know what" out of the top of his pants while we were watching a parade. My daughter had to tell his mom.
At a picnic, he put his cookie down his pants, then pulled it out and was throwing it at the kids. Then he tried to put his boogers on the kids.

...
Her one brother is constantly misbehaving. ...
I have no doubt parenting this child is a huge challenge.

The parent seems unaware that her sons behavior should be a huge concern for her. She complains the school always blames her son for things and mentioned one time when a video proved he did nothing wrong. I think he must misbehave often at school based on what I see. I'm thinking, what favors are you doing your son. She thinks he will be the most successful out of all her kids. What?????? I would guess he has no friends and annoys every kids he is around.

...

Originally Posted by sarahsweets

My son was facisinated with his penis..it was just as fun as his action figures. All we did was remind him over and over and over that touching his private parts was ok, they were his but that it had to be done in private..not that I wanted to think about him doing this but I think that if I had this funny little thing swinging around and i was 8, I probably woulf play around with it too. Its an adhd thing.

quanda - you can be certain that he has no friends and I'd wager that the statement "annoys every [kid] he is around." would be putting it very mildly. You can also be certain that the little fellow suffers a pain that is not observable because of the isolation and loneliness that he undoubtably feels.

He does not...cannot connect his actions to the sense of loneliness that he must feel. These children often seem like uncaring, mindless buffoons to the outside world, but they do become very aware, at some point, that they are not wanted.

What a horrid plight it is. To be aware of the pain of consequences, yet not to even understand why, let alone, to be able to fix that which is broken; to right themselves.

Sahrasweets: Assuming what you mentioned is just one example of your son's inability to understand personal boundaries and the consequences of repeated violations - do you ever feel yourselves - your family as a whole - to be increasingly at odds with your neighbors, other mums who have children who interact with your child...a sense of disenfranchisement from the social groups and networks that make up life in the clostrophobic suburbs ( assuming thats where you live ) on account of his behavoiours not being understood or have the odd, vague feeling that people go out of their way to avoid contact with your family - not on account of what they actually see in your son or experience directly, but more from what they hear?

If so, how do you deal with it? Seems like the only ones I've come across to successfully handle it have a skin the thickness of a glacier for one thing; and/or are very, very adept at verbal damage control and putting out fires, so to speak and/or have a rather large, entranced network of friends and supporters willing to go to bat for them at a moments notice.

How do those who do not possess the above get through it without being eaten alive?

Or do some of us live in areas that are prone to overreaction and hysteria to this kind of thing?

Thoughts very much appreciated.

[beltoller]

Originally Posted by ginniebean

Yes, they are ADHD behaviour. Inappropriate social behaviour, there's nothing psychotic about this, just a whole lot of poor judgement and impulsivity

Does the inappropriate social behaviour, the seemingly absolute lack of interspersonal boundaries ever really right themselves in any meaningful way?

Yes, you can try to train your 10 year old kid that discussing the details of his bathroom habits to his classmates at school, while class is in session is inappropriate ( he does not do so in order to be 'dirty' but because it happens to be on his mind at that moment ) by methodical repetion, but at some point down the road, the lesson will be forgotten as there is no internal sense that it is inappropriate to begin with.

The personal social consequences begin to escalate exponentially when a child begins reaching 10 or so...parents who hear from their kids that a kid in class talks about such and such don't understand many of the symptoms and ramifications of severe ADHD ( most simply think it not being able to sit still ) and will begin to get together and cause problems. After a while, it won't matter that the majority of things being tossed around are taken out of context and the whole thing takes on a surrealistic pallor.

The image of a Frankenstein monster being hounded by a group of shrill, torch-bearing villagers comes to mind.

Anyone feel that they can relate to this and are able to look back and say they had a sucessful outcome - an intact family - an untraumatised child with a normal sense of right and wrong?

[sarahsweets]

Well, these behaviors were short lived and happened between the ages of 3-4 and he is 16 now. Thankfully it was limited to happening around family not in public or at school. My concern was somehow instilling shame in him, as if his own body wasn't his or that he was a bad person. He was just curious and impulsive to the point of needing or wanting to touch himself but it was definaely a curiousity thing.

Originally Posted by beltoller

...





Sahrasweets: Assuming what you mentioned is just one example of your son's inability to understand personal boundaries and the consequences of repeated violations - do you ever feel yourselves - your family as a whole - to be increasingly at odds with your neighbors, other mums who have children who interact with your child...a sense of disenfranchisement from the social groups and networks that make up life in the clostrophobic suburbs ( assuming thats where you live ) on account of his behavoiours not being understood or have the odd, vague feeling that people go out of their way to avoid contact with your family - not on account of what they actually see in your son or experience directly, but more from what they hear?

[beltoller]

3 or 4 ? I'd say that'd be completely normal at that age.... Things like blurting out to the 4th grade teacher in the middle of class " Mrs. [Teacher], when you have diarrhea, do you have little orange things floating on top ? " with a need-to-know-right-now intensity are more of what I was refering to.

[qanda]

A friends son is a bit behind & pulled his pants down in daycare because he had to go pee. He was almost 4 years old. Completely understandable at that age, and even understandable if he touched himself in public.

At 9 or 10 years old, not so much.

[qanda]

I have so much respect for parents who can acknowledge that their child is inappropriate. I understand that some kids behaviors are extremely challenging and even the professionals do not know how to makes things completely better. I understand that it's not a lack of discipline and all that.
The girl my daughter goes to school with have very nice parents, but until this year never had her tested and did not acknowledge the girls behaviors were inappropriate. I would make my daughter reciprocate an apology even though I was near certain my daughter was being truthful and did nothing. The mom never admitted that her daughter was most likely at fault. This was a common theme among the girl with adhd and all the other girls. So of course the girls began not to want to hang out with her. Not only were they dealing with a difficult girl, but were also getting in trouble. This certainly made me not allow play dates at the girls house.
Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I am much more tolerant if parents are truthful with me and themselves about their child.

[beltoller]

Ya, it does seem, on the face of things, as if the mum in question has taken leave of her parental responsibilities...and I'd agree with the original poster that there is more at play here than simple ADHD.

quanda, I understand, doesn't have an ADHD child so its natural thinking to assume that Outrageous behaviour + disgusted sister + adhd kid with no mates = BAD PARENT on her part, so I don't have a problem here with her. And it could very well be that the parent is a bad one - they are certainly out there - with or without ADHD children.

All parents of severe ADHD/ADHD with comorbids struggle with not only our own guilt, but deal with the implied and oft spoken phrases that leave no doubt that we're bloody rot parents in the eyes of others. No, my kid has never pulled himself out of his trousers, but the disdain, the isolation and watching others 'connect the dots' for talking out of turn, being impulsive, the temper flares in resturaunts late in the day when rebound effect is rearing its head...have left permanent scars inside our child's mum and me.

That, we've found, is almost universally true with respects to the parents of ADHD kids that we've met in person. We can be at a pool on holiday and see a family or a mum and recognize each other almost immediately. Its compassion - compassion not because we are particularly nice people or were born with a halo - but it came as a result of suffering.

The commonality that we've seen with nearly all the ADHD parents weve met in person is often nothing more than a reluctance to jump on the 'when in doubt... accuse' bandwagon cause we all know what its like - to be parents up day and night worrying about your kid and then have people - people we know that spend literally 15 minutes a day with their kids ( as long as it doesn't interfere with tea or tennis matches ) pointing their fingers. But that little thing is a dead-give away.

I dont see that in a place where one would think it would be and reading statements that have a kind of "well, yeah, my kid has ADHD but it isn't as bad as that...eww" sense to it, bothers me just a little bit.

quanda - none of the above applies to you - hope you understand that

"You're defending an obviously bad parent?" No - I feel bad for the boy ...

"But he's disgusting" yeah...so is mine when his meds wear off, and certainly seemed to be before he was diagnosed - thats what brought us to that point...

WTF??? Really.

[ginniebean]

Originally Posted by beltoller

Does the inappropriate social behaviour, the seemingly absolute lack of interspersonal boundaries ever really right themselves in any meaningful way?

Well my sons are now 25 and 28 and I'm pretty sure they're not publicly masturbating anymore. I know that's not what you're asking.

ADHD is a delay in maturation, will the child ever fully catch up? No. Depending upon severity the lag will cost them much and some will lag indefinitely.

Yes, you can try to train your 10 year old kid that discussing the details of his bathroom habits to his classmates at school, while class is in session is inappropriate ( he does not do so in order to be 'dirty' but because it happens to be on his mind at that moment ) by methodical repetion, but at some point down the road, the lesson will be forgotten as there is no internal sense that it is inappropriate to begin with.

I think it's really not understood how children with adhd are truly future blind. They literally cannot see the future consequences of their actions.

Say, in the moment, the child is acting out, there may be a certain social reward for doing so initially, kids are laughing etc.. that initial social reward is all there is to the child with adhd, they will not see that the gossip, the negative assessments, the "I'm not going to be his friend anymore" will come.

This has to be explained, the child cannot come to this on his own. It is just as much a blindness as being physically blind.

Social punishments, social dynamics have to be learned differently for children with adhd, they have to learn it as meta-knowledge rather than intuitively as most children will learn it.

How do we go about that? Well there's no handbook, so as best you can, try to explain it I guess?

The personal social consequences begin to escalate exponentially when a child begins reaching 10 or so...parents who hear from their kids that a kid in class talks about such and such don't understand many of the symptoms and ramifications of severe ADHD ( most simply think it not being able to sit still ) and will begin to get together and cause problems. After a while, it won't matter that the majority of things being tossed around are taken out of context and the whole thing takes on a surrealistic pallor.

The image of a Frankenstein monster being hounded by a group of shrill, torch-bearing villagers comes to mind.

Sad but true.. when my youngest was 8, he was snuggled up beside me and turned and said to me "I wish they could see into my heart". I'll never forget how horrible that felt, and how helpless I felt.

Anyone feel that they can relate to this and are able to look back and say they had a sucessful outcome - an intact family - an untraumatised child with a normal sense of right and wrong?

My youngest was traumatized, and he still bears the scars, he lost himself for a few years, his pain so great. I guess for me, my best advice is.. when they hit those years when they're losing it, when they're doing all the wrong things, instead of blaming, step back.. be there between them and the wall.. the wall will not teach them anything.

My son is now a happy young man, yes, I know he's got a lot of hard things in front of him, but he knows, even at 25 he's got a safety net. That safety net allows him to go forward in a much more confident manner, he's healthier and needs less support than he would otherwise.

He called me six months ago, he finally got his own apartment, no roommates. He told me, he'd bought himself a 3D TV and his apartment looked nice, he was decorating it. He said, "I never thought I could do this mom. I never thought I could have a nice place that I made by myself."

While I don't think he manages his money that great, he's in his twenties now, and I know he tries his hardest. He's proud of him and so am I.

The years you're going thru are HELL, if you can take your kid out of it as much as possible, home school do what you can to provide your child sanctuary. Do what you can... love will get you thru a lot.

I know a lot of parents will bristle and disagree, these kids need to hit bottom, these kids need to fail so they will learn.. well that's crap, and it's a set up for them to fail.

[beltoller]

Genniebean - Great post. Thanks for your very well thought out responses.

"I know a lot of parents will bristle and disagree, these kids need to hit bottom, these kids need to fail so they will learn.. well that's crap, and it's a set up for them to fail."

I know that. Problem is I'm a dad ... its so difficult 'cause part of being a dad - the dad of a severly impacted boy with ADHD is having to find that mythical line between the compassion and understanding that he needs and the knowledge that without discipline, without a firm hand that makes him go back to the play-yard and confront the bullies that taunt him...he'll be a sitting duck, unable to take care of himself, unable to avoid making a target of himself. Thats my fear, anyroads.

"Sad but true.. when my youngest was 8, he was snuggled up beside me and turned and said to me "I wish they could see into my heart". I'll never forget how horrible that felt, and how helpless I felt."


I know...I know exactly what you mean - I really wish I didn't, 'cause it makes my job as a father all the more difficult, but I do.


"My son is now a happy young man, yes, I know he's got a lot of hard things in front of him, but he knows, even at 25 he's got a safety net. That safety net allows him to go forward in a much more confident manner, he's healthier and needs less support than he would otherwise.

He called me six months ago, he finally got his own apartment, no roommates. He told me, he'd bought himself a 3D TV and his apartment looked nice, he was decorating it. He said, "I never thought I could do this mom. I never thought I could have a nice place that I made by myself."

While I don't think he manages his money that great, he's in his twenties now, and I know he tries his hardest. He's proud of him and so am I. "


I'm going to fold this part of your post and put it in a drawer somewhere to read when we need encouragement - this is really great. That is something I pray that I will see with our son someday.


Thanks, again for the openess and the encouraging post. It really raised the bar several notches here.

[KatrinaCaitlin]

Originally Posted by qanda

I found out from a friend of the mom she does not medicate on weekends. If I see her again I will mention this site.

Also I would mention to her possibly that taking the child off of his meds even if just for the weekend can be harmful to the child. Me and my brother have ADHD, I also recognize the behavior you posted in your first post, as my brother will do similar things to receive an reaction, from whatever. Anyhow though I'm getting off track, me and my brother would go visit my father when we were younger, and my Dad wouldn't give him his meds so when we came back home my brother would receive his meds and gets massive headaches for 2-3 days afterwards, because his body would have to readjust to the medication.