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  #16  
Old 06-02-12, 12:44 AM
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Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynneC View Post
Drewbacca, thanks for posting the pdf...
Since I have only a very rudimentary understanding of statistics, I mainly focused on the discussion section.

One weak point in the meta analysis is that the average training time in the studies they looked at was 12 hours. This doesn't seem like enough time to make any significant changes in working memory...
I try to get the gist of it between the abstract and results. I may or may not bother with the discussion. It varies. Honestly, this is one of the worst papers that I've read as of late. It is difficult to understand the methods and the results without reading it a few times. I don't think it is a failure of your understanding of statistics as much as how it was presented. Most of the meat in this report came in the appendix.

12 hours was sufficient for what they were testing. The study doesn't really discredit memory training in a more general sense. Rather, it deflates claims made by companies who suggest that if you use their method for just 20 minutes a day for 8 weeks... or whatever.
The time frames that they tested were based on the materials that were being challenged, 12 hours being spread out over so many weeks of routine practice.
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  #17  
Old 06-02-12, 02:13 AM
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Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD

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Originally Posted by Dizfriz View Post
Sigh, if this is accurate, then another treatment that I wished would work goes down the drain.
If you haven't already stumbled upon this 90ish minute lecture, I think you'll enjoy it. It's basically a presentation of a study that shows positive results in training the mind. Many citations to academic literature are presented along the way. I'm about half way through it now and really enjoying this lecture.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/UyPrL0cmJRs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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  #18  
Old 06-02-12, 02:59 AM
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Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizfriz View Post
Sigh, if this is accurate, then another treatment that I wished would work goes down the drain.

For children, we have medication and behavior management. We could sure use something else that really works.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0531101706.htm

Dizfriz
Dizfriz,

These studies are done on children and adults.

The brain is 90% of the adult size before the age of 3.




Do you have any research about prenatal and the first 3 to 7 years of life?

This is the time that I think is most important to focus on.

In regards to memory and ADHD and Commorbids.



I have no idea what type of memory training is mentioned in this article.

And do not promote it.

I am interested in something different,

if you are interested ?


Have you ever heard of neural pruning,

during the critical time of development?
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Old 06-02-12, 07:35 AM
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Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD

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Originally Posted by Geronimoo Back-Y-Rita View Post
Dizfriz,

These studies are done on children and adults. The brain is 90% of the adult size before the age of 3.

Do you have any research about prenatal and the first 3 to 7 years of life? This is the time that I think is most important to focus on. In regards to memory and ADHD and Commorbids.

I have no idea what type of memory training is mentioned in this article. And do not promote it. I am interested in something different, if you are interested ?

Have you ever heard of neural pruning, during the critical time of development?
G,

You are working very hard to understand the material and I applaud you for this. This is the journey we all have to take to understand any subject.

One of the problems you seem to be running into is a lack of basic knowledge of neurology. This is not a criticism but simply an observation. We have all started out there.

I don't know where you live, but if in the US, the library is your friend.

If you might have difficulty getting to your local library, many, if not most public libraries will allow you to check out and download many books. It is really a neat resource if it is available to you. Not enough of the basic stuff (freshman level) is available on the internet.

We need to get you up to speed, so to speak, on the basics of neurology in general and developmental neurology in particular since this is your area of interest. You are doing some good work with some of the references others have given you so keep that going. I will keep my eye open for other good sources as time permits and encourage others to do the same. If you live in another country, drop me a PM or post it and I will do what I can.

Take care,

Dizfriz
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  #20  
Old 06-02-12, 09:00 AM
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Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD

G,

This is an interesting site. You can search for books and subjects and it will give library locations near you if there are any. There are also e books listed.

I did a lookup on developmental neurology:

http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=bas...t=results_page

Might be worth checking out.

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  #21  
Old 06-02-12, 10:12 AM
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Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD

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Originally Posted by Geronimoo Back-Y-Rita View Post
I have lots of research information on this subject.

I will start here and try to expalin in parts.



"Memory Training" occurs after the brain is mostly developed.

(stressor response systems developed),

Approx. 8 - 90 year of age.



"Training Memory" occurs while the brain is still developing.

(stressor response systems developing)

Approx. Third Trimester and the first 3 to 7 years of Life.
Thanks, but ... That is much too confusing as the names are so similar.

There should be a different distinction between memory training in the very young
versus those older than 8 or 9.
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  #22  
Old 06-02-12, 01:31 PM
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Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD

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Developmental experience: Use-dependent organization of neural systems

In the developing brain, undifferentiated neural systems are critically dependent upon sets of environmental and micro-environmental cues (e.g., neurotransmitters, cellular adhesion molecules, neurohormones, amino acids, ions) to appropriately organize from their undifferentiated, immature forms Appendix 1, Key Points: Brain Development). Lack (or disruption) of these critical cues can result in abnormal neuronal division, migration, differentiation, synaptogenesis -- all of which contribute to malorganization and compromised function in the affected systems (Cragg, 1975; Lauder, 1988; Perry, Wainwright, Won, Hoffman and Heller, 1990b). Two major principles of neurodevelopment related to the timing and nature of these organizing cues are 1) use-dependent development and organization of the brain and 2) critical and sensitive periods.

The brain develops in a sequential and hierarchical fashion -- i.e., from less complex (brainstem) to most complex (limbic, cortical areas). These different areas develop, organize and become fully functional at different times during childhood. At birth, for example, the brainstem areas responsible for regulating cardiovascular and respiratory function must be intact for the infant to survive, and any malfunction is immediately observable. In contrast, the cortical areas responsible for abstract cognition have years before they will be 'needed' or fullyfunctional. This means that there are different times during which different areas of the CNS are organizing and, therefore, either require (critical periods) or are most sensitive to (sensitive periods) organizing experiences (and the neurotrophic cues related to these experiences). Disruptions of experience-dependent neurochemical signals during these periods may lead to major abnormalities or deficits in neurodevelopment -- some of which may not be reversible (see below). Disruption of critical cues can result from 1) lack of sensory experience during critical periods or, more commonly, 2) atypical or abnormal patterns of neuronal activation due to extremes of experience (e.g., child maltreatment).

The simple and unavoidable result of this sequential neurodevelopment is that the organizing, sensitive brain of an infant or young children is more malleable to experience than a mature brain. While experience may alter the behavior of an adult, experience literally provides the organizing framework for an infant and child. Because the brain is most plastic (receptive to environmental input) in early childhood, the child is most vulnerable to variance of experience during this time.
See the rest of the article: http://www.trauma-pages.com/a/perry96.php
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  #23  
Old 06-02-12, 01:43 PM
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Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD

Well, the study results prompted me to think, "well, duh. . ." Similarly to ginniebean, my experience has been that nothing at all helps with memory as a whole, since my memories need to be connected very consciously to something, one memory at a time, with a great deal of effort. If I train a single memory, and don't give up too early, it can often stay remembered. I wouldn't live long enough to train my memories to recall everything that was even moderately important!
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  #24  
Old 06-02-12, 08:23 PM
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Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD

Does that mean I am wasting my time by doing Lumosity daily?
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  #25  
Old 06-02-12, 08:26 PM
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Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD

http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125322


Quote:
D. Long-Term Goals of Development Take Precedence Over Short-Term Behavioral Objectives

a. The plasticity of the human brain: allows new circuits of impulse control, motivation, and attention
to develop if the right conditions for such development are provided;
b. The essential conditions that only adults can offer to children, and only mindful and conscious
caregivers can offer to adults
unconditional positive regard: the importance of relationship;
compassionate curiosity;
self-awareness.
c. Behavioral goals and behavioral techniques often result in emotional shut-down, the loss of
vulnerability, enhanced counterwill, stored up frustration and anger, and diminished self-esteem;

d. The negative impact of punishments and rewards.
e. Understanding what is being acted out
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  #26  
Old 06-03-12, 10:09 AM
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Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD

G,


A route I have taken several times on new subjects is the dummies series. They have been a lot of help in getting started in a subject. The primary reason is that so many articles and such assume a basic knowledge of terms and concepts. Starting with these kinds of books can give you a big leg up on learning the subject and it has proven so for me.

They have one called Neuroscience for Dummies.

It might prove helpful. You can get it from several sources including Amazon. It seems to be reasonably priced and you might be able to get it from the library on an interlibary loan.

Also, I had the best success looking at the term neuroscience on the web. I found a number of interesting hits using different forms of this term.


Here are a number of free courses on the subject. Once you get the terminology down and become familiar with the basics of the subject, you should be able to handle a good number of these but you have to have the basic background first or at least this is what I have found for myself.
http://diplomaguide.com/articles/Fre...versities.html

Keep plugging, you will get there.

Dizfriz
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  #27  
Old 06-03-12, 10:53 AM
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Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD

I'm trying to get my head around this I really am, only time will tell.
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  #28  
Old 06-03-12, 12:47 PM
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Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD

You kind of need to take it one step at a time, sarahsweets. From simple to complex. I recommended books by Oliver Sacks to GBYR before, and you might enjoy them too. Each book is divided into chapters that are based around the story of a patient with a particular neurological problem, and then talks about how the problem was caused by malfunction in one brain area. The technical terms are introduced only a few at a time, and only related to the subject in question, so they're easier to remember. (Have I brought this back around to the topic yet?)
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  #29  
Old 06-03-12, 02:24 PM
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Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahsweets View Post
I'm trying to get my head around this I really am, only time will tell.



I will try and explain in ADHDian. (Language used by ADHDers)

There are many "ADHDian paradoxes/contradictions".


Instead of doing anything,

just try to figure out something out.

"Just try to do it."

Instead of "Just Do It"


No other expectations.


When I read and I am having a hard time focusing,

I try to start by staring at the page only.

I might pick out words that stand out.

Think about them in any manner I want,

and move on,

do what ever I want,

skip over,

mispronounce,

daydream.

Only one requirement.

That I do things I am interested in.

with less amount of stress as possible,

at least once.

That might mean staring at the page only,

it might mean looking up one word found in the material.

After trying.

When ever I want to stop.

I stop.







A fascinating thing happens the next day.

Because I picked information,

I really am interested in.



I try to scan the material again.

And I know some things,

scanning today,

that I didn't know yesterday,

when I "scan" the information the second time.


If I am unable to start a book.

I sometimes start in middle or even at the end.

The only rule.

Is that I try every day.

Not all reading information is interesting.

But I try to pick things I am really interested in,

when developing my brain is in mind. (no pun intended)

After taking this approach, (and take my medication)

I have developed a few interesting things.

And I have a semi organized desk.

I work on things a little every day.

And things very very very slowly do get better. (faster in early life)


There is more of a structure to this form of self development.


"The point of Performance "-Dr.Barkley talks about is one good example.

There is about ten of them.

But I haven't felt like looking at them yet.

Maybe I will try tomorrow.

I want to.


(I have a physiology coloring book and I must have read about half the book already,

over the last year slowly when ever I was interested,

I read what ever I want,

and I am actually starting to put things together,

another year and I might be able to explain what my life experience has already taught me,

but I can't explain yet.)


.

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  #30  
Old 06-03-12, 09:42 PM
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Re: Memory Training Unlikely to Help in Treating ADHD

The open course serious provided by MIT might be of benefit to someone.
http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/#brain-an...itive-sciences

I haven't taken a look at any of the neuroscience courses yet, but many seem promising (if you have access to the journals for the reading and/or are willing to order a text book).

I'm probably going to work through the following over the summer:

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/brain-and...2002/index.htm

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/brain-and...2007/index.htm

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/brain-and...ior-fall-2003/
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