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  #61  
Old 06-05-12, 04:51 PM
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Re: Lack of "appreciation" from ADD partner?

It's kinda odd that ADDers are constantly seen as not being empathetic. I've had this thrown at me many times.

I think I am often too empathetic, particularly in work situations. NT people seem to have an ability to put feelings to one side and get on with the job, even if it involves ripping vulnerable people off.

I would say that NONE of the diagnosed or undiagnosed ADDers I have come across would be able to do what I have seen many many NT people do.

OK so we do have foot in mouth syndrome... but I suspect that's Aspergery impulsivity control saying what is in our mind and not filtering it adequately.... I'm pretty sure the NT'ers think the same thoughts, they just don't say them.

Yes sometimes we don't "pay attention" to our nearest and dearest.... but that's not through lack of empathy .... more overload and distractibility/hyperfocus on something else/desire for stimulation.

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Old 06-05-12, 09:45 PM
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Re: Lack of "appreciation" from ADD partner?

When I was depressed, I struggled much much more with showing understanding of how others felt and how I was impacting on them. I could see it when it was spelled out to me but I was too deeply lost in pain/despair to see it on my own. From the description of staying in bed and surfing the net all day? That screams depression to me. Especially the 'what difference does it make that I live in the same house'. That screams to me of the depressed state where one really thinks one is so unimportant, what difference could it possibly make whether I'm here or not.

With my ADHD, I'm saying thank you fairly constantly and expressing my appreciation a lot because frankly, I can *see* how dysfunctional my behaviour is and how much help others are giving me.
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Old 06-05-12, 10:27 PM
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Re: Lack of "appreciation" from ADD partner?

For me its not a lack of appreciation...I feel a deep sense of guilt and unworthiness at the massive input I need from people to help me/bail me out particularly when its got to do with clearing up after an impulsive decision/ problem I've gotten myself into...I have to make a conscious effort to say thankyou but I never feel good and when people help me it just makes me feel like a crappy sh**ty person...
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Old 06-08-12, 04:01 PM
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Re: Lack of "appreciation" from ADD partner?

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Originally Posted by Florence1989 View Post
For me its not a lack of appreciation...I feel a deep sense of guilt and unworthiness at the massive input I need from people to help me/bail me out particularly when its got to do with clearing up after an impulsive decision/ problem I've gotten myself into...I have to make a conscious effort to say thankyou but I never feel good and when people help me it just makes me feel like a crappy sh**ty person...
That's SO true. I feel the same way. I will go to almost ridiculous lengths to avoid having to ask somebody to help bail me out. Case in point the time I got stuck in the snow on the side of a gravel road and spend way too much time trying to dig myself out with nothing but a tire iron - trying to do the work of a shovel with a narrow iron bar - when I was only a couple miles from my boyfriend's place and he has a pickup truck that could have - and eventually did - pull me effortlessly loose in a matter of seconds. I put off calling him as long as I could because I did not want him to know I had gotten stuck. What probably finally made me do it was that some other people had stopped to try to help me and it made me realize that to inconvenience strangers when there was somebody just down the road who could and would come help me if asked, wasn't entirely fair and indeed probably made them think I was an idiot when I told them my boyfriend lived nearby.

My "thank-yous" are so loaded with shame and embarrassment that perhaps they don't come out with the enthusiasm and effusiveness that people want to hear in them. It has nothing to do with not being grateful.
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  #65  
Old 06-08-12, 04:33 PM
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Re: Lack of "appreciation" from ADD partner?

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Originally Posted by kilted_scotsman View Post
It's kinda odd that ADDers are constantly seen as not being empathetic. I've had this thrown at me many times.

I think I am often too empathetic, particularly in work situations. NT people seem to have an ability to put feelings to one side and get on with the job, even if it involves ripping vulnerable people off.

I would say that NONE of the diagnosed or undiagnosed ADDers I have come across would be able to do what I have seen many many NT people do.
I was thinking about this discussion the other day when I had some insights on perceived "lack of empathy" in ADHDers and others. I believe that some people actively and instinctively fight against the empathy they are naturally cursed with, and actually put on an act of not caring because their empathetic nature makes life difficult. (I don't know if I do this but I know that my heart is so tender sometimes that I feel afraid for my sanity if I don't do something to protect it and prevent it from absorbing the things that hurt it.)

I believe that my boyfriend is one of these people. There have been times when I thought he was hard-hearted but I know now it's the complete opposite. He is so tender-hearted that I believe he has to fight against letting other people's tragedies get to him in order to survive.

For example, years ago there was another guy he used to pal around with, in his more wild and crazy days (not that he could ever get THAT wild and crazy, LOL) and they had a falling out a few years ago and have not spent time together since. He still talks about him though and asked me a couple weeks ago if the guy ever came into the store when I was working. I said I didn't know if I'd know what he looked like anymore, and we both came up with the idea at the same time that I should look the guy up on Facebook to see if he had a page. Well, when I did, I didn't find a facebook page for him but googling his name and town brought up something very surprising - his daughter's obituary. Apparently the guy's 14-year-old daughter had died suddenly in April, and I knew right away that my boyfriend had no idea that this had happened because he hadn't said anything to me. After I told him, his reaction was to have kind of gruff things to say about his ex-friend, but I KNOW that his heart is very touched by this news. The little girl had handicaps and some deformities, and I know his heart has always gone out to her, having repeatedly stated that in the custody battles where the child as so often happens became the object of a tug-of-war, she was the one he felt sorry for.

Some people have to actually try to blunt their tendency to empathy any way they can to protect themselves from the pain that deep and easily activated empathy can cause the person who possesses it.

It's a little bit like the way I have had to sort of develop a hardened heart towards raccoons. I love cats and like dogs and every time I see one killed on the road it causes me pain. And if I felt that same pain every time I saw a dead raccoon on the road, I would be an emotional wreck a lot of the time. Every day where I had to drive somewhere would be a bad day for me. Because raccoons get hit a LOT and not only that but they are easy to hit. I have hit one two or three times in my driving career even though I've never hit a deer or a cat or even really rabbits or squirrels that I can remember. So emotionally I can't afford to have my heart break every time I see a dead coon. It's a matter of practical survival to grow a shell over my heart in the matter of raccoons. LOL.

I also can't watch those Humane Society ads that show suffering animals. The fact that I have to turn away from them and refuse to watch them, does in no way mean that I lack empathy. It means the opposite. I have so much empathy for suffering animals that I have to protect myself from those shattering images. Those images are meant to elicit emotional reactions from those who don't already feel motivated to help the cause. It's those of us who need no such emotional triggers because we already wholeheartedly support the cause who want to turn away.

On the other hand, I have had to go from one of those people whose tenderness toward animals is such that they cannot or will not face an animal who is sick or wounded in an ugly way that's hard to look at, to being able to face the worst with a granite willpower, because I cannot help them if I cannot face their condition.

I can face it if there may be something I can do about. I can allow myself to feel empathy without trying to repress it if it is possible that I can take positive action to help the situation. It's when you can't really do anything to help that you try to put other people's miseries out of your mind.
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Old 06-09-12, 04:18 AM
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Re: Lack of "appreciation" from ADD partner?

listen, i am not trying to step on toes, imply that people who have ad/hd are sociopaths or anything like that. i think many confuse empathy with emotion. and i think the confusion is further mitigated by the fact that people who have ad/hd ARE capable of empathy, but may sometimes experience delayed empathy due to the slow integration processes in the brain caused by the overwhelmingly fragmented input.


let me ask this: why do you think awkward social situations are common for those who have ad/hd? why is social interaction so hindered?


could it possibly be because


1) filtering comments is difficult due to impulsivity, later causing remorse when the empathetic centers of the brain integrate the all the input from the given situation? thus, creating a guilt cycle?


and

2) there could be impairment of reading others' responses, thereby creating an awkward situation such as an odd look on the other person's face, or odd interactions?


could it be possible that other people don't understand how emotional people with ad/hd truly are because the interactions are dulled for the very reasons mentioned on this thread? perhaps, out of self-preservation, coping mechanisms have led to the outward impression of lack of empathy and emotion. if that is the case, then how can someone be blamed for not being able to read a non-responsive or non-emotional face? it would be natural for another person to walk away with the very impression that the OP expressed.


so, where is the organic beginning of those awkward interactions? I'm just tossing those possibilities out there for consideration. if we can find understanding of that, then we can address it through CBT.


please understand that my statements come strictly from a research point of view. studies produce data that is not pc. data is empirical. but to truly gain knowledge that can ultimately help us to better understand brain disorders, we simply cannot afford to be so entrenched in being pc that we refuse to consider the empirical data to a point of denial.

individually, if the desire is to address the issues at a personal level in order to improve life, then it would be a misguided approach to to deny the ramifications of the disorder on those affected directly as well as those affected indirectly: family, friends, loved-ones. the goal is to bridge the abyss of communication between those affected by and those close to them. to do that, there has to be honest, often difficult discourse, with sincere desire to understand.

it serves no purpose to "place blame" or take offense at studying the knowledge base at our disposal other than to perpetuate the problems. it is a disservice to ignore potentially helpful information if it can lead us to better understanding and treatments.


the other thing that i have found interesting is the consistent denial of similarities between ad/hd and the asd's. yes, they are defined as different disabilities, but the overlaps and similarities are so overwhelming that they are essentially and practically treated with very similar techniques.

why? why would the same treatments and techniques benefit both those with ad/hd and those with asd?

because there are overwhelming physioligical, psychological and sociological similarities very closely relating them. why would there be those incredibly close correlations if they were not of the same or similar issues?


we have to ask those questions from a research point of view so that we can better understand what we are working with and how we can better serve both populations in an honest manner.


I am including several links and quotes to better explain the correlation of ad/hd with the asd's and explanations of how the ad/hd and asd brains are affected in terms of empathy.


please understand, i do not take anything away from anyone who has ad/hd or asd, and their need to be understood and appreciated. to the contrary. it has been one of my life's driving forces to breach the gap and to serve those who so desparately need and seek help.

every human being is valuable and worthy of love, dignity and compassion. if we are searching for empirical answers to better understand the disabilities we are working with, it is in no way an indictment or attempt to place blame or in any way demean anyone who has ad/hd or asd.

rather, it is a forthright effort to progress our knowledge forward so that we can better treat those affected. it is sincere desire to help improve the lives of those affected as well as those who love someone affected by one of these disabilities that pushes us forward in research and to kick over every rock that we can find as we seek to find the answers. some of those rocks prove to be dead ends. some may be off a little bit, but may lead to better paths.


so, please understand the spirit in which i post. i do not begrudge anyone their feelings and need for understanding. i completely understand why such discussions can feel heartless or unsympathetic.

i get why this board is such a blessing to many lives because there is solace in community and reciprocity of experience.


so, i thought long and hard about whether i wanted to post anything else to this thread, but i know that those here are seeking answers to improve their lives as much as those of us who are researching and studying are seeking answers to help improve lives.

the following links and quotes are explanations of the points i was trying to make.

regarding "mirror neurons"...

http://www.drhallowell.com/add-adhd/top-10-newest-findings-about-addadhd/

"6. Q: You mentioned the recent discovery of “mirror neurons.” Are people who have ADD deficient in these?

A: Not at all! However, in order to activate the mirror neurons, and the ensuing process of empathy, it is required that you pay attention. This is why people of all ages who have ADD can seem at one minute exquisitely tuned in to the feelings of another person, then at the next minute seem totally tuned out."


this is what i was trying to explain about the fragmented input not falling into place fast enough to experience empathy "in the moment." perhaps delayed. nonetheless, if it is not experienced nor expressed in the moment, then the impression to the other person in the given situation is that it is not there. delayed processing due to overwhelming input caused by a slow or overloaded neuro-transmission process.



http://www.qeeg.com/adhd.html



"Many young children with "ADHD" show this excessive theta activity, particularly over the front end of the brain. The frontal and prefrontal (behind your forehead) regions do "executive" things: planning, motivation, impulse control. The systems behind those in frontal cortex regulate attention, ignoring distractions, persistence and precise motor (muscle) control as well as "mirroring." There are specialized neurons in part of the frontal cortex (mirror neurons) that allow us to copy what we see others do, even down to letting us feel what others feel. That's empathy. So if the whole region is really too underexcited ("sleepy") to do the jobs, you're going to have some problems."

this also talks about possible explanation of delayed empathetic response.





another interesting article can be found at http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120302132317.htm



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3123401/?tool=pubmed

"Results of this study support the growing literature examining the overlap of ASD and ADHD beyond clinical measures. Recent studies have found that the relation between autistic traits and ADHD symptoms is familial (Mulligan et al., 2009; Nijmeijer et al., 2009) and is mostly accounted for by genetic influences as shown by the greater similarity among monozygotic than dizygotic twins (Ronald et al., 2008). Similarly, a substantial proportion of the genetic influences on self-reported ADHD and autistic symptoms were found to be shared in a young adult twin sample (Reiersen, Constantino, Grimmer, Martin, & Todd, 2008). A clue to one possible source of such a common etiologic relationships was reported by Smalley et al. (2002) who found that ADHD and autism share a common and overlapping susceptible locus in chromosome 16p13. More recently, excessive frequency of large, rare copy number variations in chromosome 16p13 were reported in a well-characterized ADHD sample, thus further supporting the potential overlap between some forms of ADHD and autism (Williams et al., 2010). Beyond the overlap of core diagnostic symptoms of ADHD and ASD, several lines of evidence indicate that these two diagnostic entities share common deficits in other areas including motor coordination (Reiersen, Constantino, & Todd, 2008), attention control and executive functions (Corbett & Constantine, 2006; Reiersen et al., 2008; Fine, Semrud-Clikeman, Butcher, & Walkowiak, 2008; Schatz, Weimer, & Trauner, 2002; Geurts, Verte, Oosterlaan, Roeyers, & Sergeant, 2004), facial affect processing (Sinzig, Morsch, & Lehmkuhl, 2008; Yuill & Lyon, 2007), and theory of mind (Buitelaar, Van der Wees, Swaab-Barneveld, & van der Gaag, 1999; Sinzig et al., 2008). To date, only one MRI study has examined the neuronal overlap between ASD and ADHD. Brieber et al. (2007) found gray matter volume reductions in the parietal lobe and gray matter density reductions in the temporal lobe in both groups. Clearly, further examinations of the overlap between ASD and ADHD are warranted at the neuropsychological, physiological, and genetic domains...
...In conclusion, the results of this study have implications for the assessment and treatment of autistic traits in children with ADHD both in regard to the recognition of their social difficulties and their increased risk of comorbid ODD. It is likely that the DSM-IV-TR exclusion of the diagnosis of ASD in individuals with ADHD may prevent appropriate identification and targeted treatment. Finally, the appreciation of a specific social impairment associated with ASD in some children with ADHD may provide a means to dissect the biological components underlying these disorders."


this explains why we need to consider further the overlap of ad/hd and asd, giving us reason to believe that the spectrum does, indeed, extend to include ad/hd. So, if there are things we can understand in the asd's can help those who have ad/hd, we need to seriously consider them without feeling embarrassed or accusatory for breathing the words ad/hd and autism spectrum in the same breath. there is no shame in the spectrum. i think we have to move past stigma of the word, and look at how we can best help those affected so that they can fully and comfortably integrate into society to the extent they desire.


i hope i haven't offended anyone. it is truly not my intent. rather, i am on a mission in my own life to improve communications and interactions between those affected with ad/hd and the asd's professionally, and now, personally.

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Old 06-09-12, 04:07 PM
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Re: Lack of "appreciation" from ADD partner?

There are whole threads discussing AS and ADHD and their comorbidity. You might enjoy checking them out.

BUT people on the spectrum have a hard time, possibly find it impossible, to put themselves in other people's shoes. To see their perspective. ADHDers CAN do this. That ability is not impaired. What is impaired is the ability to recognise when empathy might be required and, especially, expressing it according to NT standards.

The ability to feel empathy and the ability to express it (in a way that is considered socially correct) are not the same thing.

Please also understand that "you just don't care" is a cudgel often used to bludgeon us. And encouraging this false belief does only harm.
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Old 06-09-12, 04:22 PM
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Re: Lack of "appreciation" from ADD partner?

I'm not sure how I implied that "you just don't care" is any part of the issue. If that is the implication you got from my post, it was not my intent. I think people dealing with this disorder absolutely DO care. all I am saying is that we have to consider all possibilities until they are ruled out. otherwise we are not giving honest consideration to the knowledge we currently have. we must rule out all options to get to the truth. hopefully, we will become better equipped and better educated as we do so.
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Old 06-09-12, 04:54 PM
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Re: Lack of "appreciation" from ADD partner?

edited for pointlessness

There IS NO EVIDENCE.. there is postualtions.. but, spouses around the internet are touting this postulating as if it is ALREADY fact. Why?

Could it be that since it's no longer cool to say that people with ADHD just don't care that dressing it up as 'lacks empathy' is the new code for it?
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Old 06-09-12, 05:03 PM
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Re: Lack of "appreciation" from ADD partner?

no. it doesn't. it means there is a processing issue whether it is caused by a missed cue due to inattention or whatever. the journals of medicine are not "out to get you." they aren't moralizing. they are, in fact, attempting to eliminate moralizing by studying the empirical. taking the empirical or the current medical knowledge base as a personal affront rather than one step (of many more to come) in the understanding of brain disorders is self-defeating. I'm not quoting another forum where partners are railing on their spouses, S/O's or kids, those quotes are coming from medical journals and people who have no personal gain from insulting those who are affected by the disorders.

lacks empathy is code for "cannot always read social signals." it has no bearing on whether or not you "care."
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Old 06-09-12, 05:08 PM
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Re: Lack of "appreciation" from ADD partner?

It's still be written as FACT.. it's not, it's also not our experience. I will admit to knowing little about mirror neurons, however, babies with adhd do not have bonding issues. They look into mommy's eyes, and they smile and coo and they experience being loved and cared for.

Inattention as an explanation just doesn't cut it.

Here's the thing, I can tell how someone with ADHD is feeling, and I can't tell how someone without is. (often but not always) How is this possible? Could it be that I can read the signs I give out and that others with ADHD give out because I'm basing it on how I would react? Could it be that the reverse is also just as true?

That people who don't have adhd can't read our signals should it then be pathologised as "lacks empathy?"

I'm not trying to be a bag here, I am just flabbergasted that this was presented as if it's already fact, and we have shown that's not so, and yet we're still working thru potentials and our experience is being ignored.
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Old 06-09-12, 05:39 PM
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Re: Lack of "appreciation" from ADD partner?

yes, i am sure you can read signals. the question comes to the front when there are social signals missed on a regular basis, causing social dysfunction of some sort when someone may not be as tuned into them because of the distractions caused by ad/hd.

my question is, how did does someone come by a diagnosis of ad/hd? was everything functioning in their life normally, or was there an issue that needed to be addressed?

and if there was an issue that needed to be addressed, then what were the implications of the issue? were there social issues?

if there were social issues, then where is the organic cause of those issues? certainly part of it is output. but for there to be appropriate output, there must first be appropriate processing of input.

so, is that processing issue affecting behavior? how, for example, would anyone know if they were not in tune with others around them if they were unaware of the cues they missed?

my boyfriend is very attuned to my emotions. he can tell by my text how i am feeling at any given time. he knows me inside and out. that doesn't mean that he may not miss a social cue in a situation to which he is not as well attuned. it might even cause him to experience an awkward social moment because he missed said cue.

there is a reason it is called a dis-order. something is not clicking correctly and needs to be re-ordered for things to mesh.

i'm dyslexic. but just because i'm dyslexic and have a learning dis-order, does not make someone else dis-ordered because they aren't dyslexic. so, for me to adjust my life to be able to function normally, i had to address my learning disability and develop coping mechanisms that helped me succeed where i would have otherwise failed. my need for those coping mechanisms doesn't change the fact that my brain has difficulty with interpretting symbols. i cannot do my financials when i am tired. if i do, i will end up with all kinds of banking errors. that's not my bank's fault. it's up to me to adjust myself and learn to deal with my learning disability in order to better mesh with the rest of the world.

certainly everyone who has any sort of compassion should try to understand to the best of their ability, and help those who are struggling with dyslexia, ad/hd, whatever..but in order for there to be understanding of any kind, there must first be knowledge and that knowledge comes from a great deal of trial / error and interpretation of data. it isn't an attack that people are researching. it's actually comforting to me to know how many people out here care enough to dedicate their lives to seeking the knowledge that will hopefully lead to an ultimate understanding of brain disorders, like mine.

Last edited by finalcall; 06-09-12 at 05:56 PM.. Reason: clarification
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Old 06-09-12, 05:52 PM
finalcall finalcall is offline
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Re: Lack of "appreciation" from ADD partner?

i cannot answer for what other people do to use information to bludgeon their spouses with.

yes, there are postulations.
yes, we are in the infancy of understanding the brain. So, i guess we should just give up on it? should we just say..eh, what odds, let's just ignore the possibilities because someone somewhere might use the information to hurt someone else's feelings? no.

if someone is mis-treating their spouse, S/O, or kid because of a disability, then it's wrong. clearly. and it happens every day with any disability, and even in households without a recognized disability. some people are just not nice, and they use whatever they can to hurt others. that's what laws are for. abuse.

but that should not stop us from searching for answers. we are going to have alot of "swings and misses" along the way. that's how research works. to have success, you have to have failure and adaptation. so, it won't happen in a day, a week or a month. it takes years of exploring every possibility to rule them out until the field of possibilities are narrowed down to the final answer.

since we don't understand all cancers, should we quit trying to find the cure? since radiation and chemo are toxic, should we deny them to those who need treatment?

same thing. only on a psychological front. we have to search. we have to fail. we have to postulate. we have to hypothesize.

OR

we give up.
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Old 06-09-12, 05:53 PM
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Re: Lack of "appreciation" from ADD partner?

let me ask this: why do you think awkward social situations are common for those who have ad/hd? why is social interaction so hindered?

Have you considered that social interaction requires significant working memory? Much of social understanding is learned as people grow, it's intuitive learning, and it works by decoding various social understandings. Much of learned social behaviour is based on deception. Deception is heavy load on working memory.

It's about being able to decode. So say a person with adhd has only three chunks of working memory, any social protocol, or understanding that requires MORE than three reamains a mystery, a puzzle, because the brain can't decode those scripts/protocols/deceptions that require 4-5-6 chunks. This leaves the person with ADHD having to learn these things as meta-knowledge. How's the parent who learned this stuff intuitively supposed to articulate this? They are baffled why their child is doing b when a or c are required. The child is developing anxiety because he's randomly picking a strategy in hopes that he'll somehow get a pass. Even at that when he does get it right? He may not know why.






1) filtering comments is difficult due to impulsivity, later causing remorse when the empathetic centers of the brain integrate the all the input from the given situation? thus, creating a guilt cycle?

When someone who doesn't have adhd says something without thinking, then looks over to see the person looking hurt what do they feel? Do they have some sort of different remorse? If they don't happen to look at the other person and see the reaction, might they have to be told later? Would they then also not feel contrite?

Add in possibly not knowing what social boundary was broken due to the previous decoding issues and not being able to play the social lies or fudges however you want to put that adds in an extra difficulty.

Does this lead to lack of empathy via inactivated mirror neurons? Well I dunno, but occams razor seems somewhat applicable at least while we wait for evidence.




2) there could be impairment of reading others' responses, thereby creating an awkward situation such as an odd look on the other person's face, or odd interactions?

There is impairment in reading other's responses there are known social impairments caused not so much by distraction because of the sheer volume of social interaction a lot more would be learned if it were merely a distraction issue.


could it be possible that other people don't understand how emotional people with ad/hd truly are because the interactions are dulled for the very reasons mentioned on this thread? perhaps, out of self-preservation, coping mechanisms have led to the outward impression of lack of empathy and emotion. if that is the case, then how can someone be blamed for not being able to read a non-responsive or non-emotional face? it would be natural for another person to walk away with the very impression that the OP expressed.

Yeah, of course, when you lack emotional regulation you learn to dull yourself, not to be too happy, too sad, too hurt, too upset because it's painting a big fat target on you as people play the game of "let's wind up the kid with adhd!" An oft beloved school yard classic.

You learn that your emotional expression is wrong without knowing why it's wrong. I mean a person with adhd can say, yes, I got angry for being called stupid, wouldn't anyone else get angry in the same situation? Other children would know the socially defensive postures that they've decoded that end the altercation or minimise it but children with ADHD don't, nor can they blunt their emotions, they simply don't have the control.

As adults, yes, we do learn to blunt our emotions and when we do lose control well there's a whole other hell to pay for that because well then it's too much. So it's either too much or not enough. That is what emotional dysregulation is. For us, letting emotion out there is threatening because we've been penalized tremendously for it over long periods of time.

I've had people tell me on this very forum that I'm 'raging' when I was only mildly annoyed, so "blink" ??





so, where is the organic beginning of those awkward interactions? I'm just tossing those possibilities out there for consideration. if we can find understanding of that, then we can address it through CBT.

I like tossing stuff out there too, and it's ok as long as we're not using it for an explanation that can already be explained by symtoms aready present.

It's too early to make any sorts of declarations.


please understand that my statements come strictly from a research point of view. studies produce data that is not pc. data is empirical. but to truly gain knowledge that can ultimately help us to better understand brain disorders, we simply cannot afford to be so entrenched in being pc that we refuse to consider the empirical data to a point of denial.

You see this as a matter of being PC? Really, can you not have empathy? (put yourselves in our shoes for a minute?) How would it be for a group you belong to have it stated as fact, with simply not enough evidence that you lack empathy? And have words like 'fact' and 'empirical' attached to it?

No one here is anti science. Take a look thru the science threads, people throwing out 'theories' that aren't solid don't get accepted well, and people will point out the obvious.

individually, if the desire is to address the issues at a personal level in order to improve life, then it would be a misguided approach to to deny the ramifications of the disorder on those affected directly as well as those affected indirectly: family, friends, loved-ones. the goal is to bridge the abyss of communication between those affected by and those close to them. to do that, there has to be honest, often difficult discourse, with sincere desire to understand.

If the goal is to bridge the abyss of communication can I ask you to do a small amount of research for me. Find one, article for people with ADHD that helps them with their difficulties with their NT partners? I've looked for years, haven't found one.

Unless we're the only one's who have difficulty communicating? It couldn't be that we might need help understanding you guys? Where's these articles. You'll find articles for the NT partner in quite an abundance.



it serves no purpose to "place blame" or take offense at studying the knowledge base at our disposal other than to perpetuate the problems. it is a disservice to ignore potentially helpful information if it can lead us to better understanding and treatments.

No one was ignoring the information, we said it wasn't true, that it hadn't enough evidence. We were right.


the other thing that i have found interesting is the consistent denial of similarities between ad/hd and the asd's. yes, they are defined as different disabilities, but the overlaps and similarities are so overwhelming that they are essentially and practically treated with very similar techniques.

Well, that's been discussed on this forum plenty, and by researchers who continue to say nope.. two very different disorders. For what it's worth, I do think they are two different disorders and I do think there's a lot of comorbidity going one way, those with asd can have adhd comorbid, but adhd would not have asd as comorbid.



why? why would the same treatments and techniques benefit both those with ad/hd and those with asd?

Well, to be honest, the techniques actually are quite different, you don't see young children with adhd getting the gov't to pay for years of behaviour therapy. Why? Not that I think behaviour therapy has no value for those with adhd but I'm not certain about long term outcomes.

also, ASD is not treated with stimulants, yet it is when there is co-morbid adhd present. It does bring up some interesting questions, like.. what's the difference between lacks theory of mind and poor self awareness? I honestly have tried to take a whack at that question myself with little true understanding.

It does seem to me that what you're actually trying to talk about is not a lack of empathy but rather a lack of theory of mind. Tho, that's just a guess.



because there are overwhelming physioligical, psychological and sociological similarities very closely relating them. why would there be those incredibly close correlations if they were not of the same or similar issues?

Angina and a heart attack have similar symptoms because they are the same organ. Could it be that simple?



please understand, i do not take anything away from anyone who has ad/hd or asd, and their need to be understood and appreciated. to the contrary. it has been one of my life's driving forces to breach the gap and to serve those who so desparately need and seek help.

every human being is valuable and worthy of love, dignity and compassion. if we are searching for empirical answers to better understand the disabilities we are working with, it is in no way an indictment or attempt to place blame or in any way demean anyone who has ad/hd or asd.

Unfortunately it is not being used in this manner by all therefor caution is required.



rather, it is a forthright effort to progress our knowledge forward so that we can better treat those affected. it is sincere desire to help improve the lives of those affected as well as those who love someone affected by one of these disabilities that pushes us forward in research and to kick over every rock that we can find as we seek to find the answers. some of those rocks prove to be dead ends. some may be off a little bit, but may lead to better paths.

We are much more likely to be confronted with denial and suspicion. Much much more likely even by those who know us very very well.




i get why this board is such a blessing to many lives because there is solace in community and reciprocity of experience.

Yeah, not because it's simply solace but because we aren't arbitrarily dismissed when we discuss our actual experience. Other's here will argue, they'll add some insight but they will actually listen. This is unfortunately not the case elsewhere.


so, i thought long and hard about whether i wanted to post anything else to this thread, but i know that those here are seeking answers to improve their lives as much as those of us who are researching and studying are seeking answers to help improve lives.

A new thread might have been a good idea, one in the science section most likely.

the following links and quotes are explanations of the points i was trying to make.


http://www.drhallowell.com/add-adhd/top-10-newest-findings-about-addadhd/

"6. Q: You mentioned the recent discovery of “mirror neurons.” Are people who have ADD deficient in these?

A: Not at all! However, in order to activate the mirror neurons, and the ensuing process of empathy, it is required that you pay attention. This is why people of all ages who have ADD can seem at one minute exquisitely tuned in to the feelings of another person, then at the next minute seem totally tuned out."

Not to put too fine a point on this but Ned Hallowell is not a researcher. He's giving an opinion and not a scientific one.


this is what i was trying to explain about the fragmented input not falling into place fast enough to experience empathy "in the moment." perhaps delayed. nonetheless, if it is not experienced nor expressed in the moment, then the impression to the other person in the given situation is that it is not there. delayed processing due to overwhelming input caused by a slow or overloaded neuro-transmission process.

Delayed processing could be a comorbid learning disability.




this explains why we need to consider further the overlap of ad/hd and asd, giving us reason to believe that the spectrum does, indeed, extend to include ad/hd. So, if there are things we can understand in the asd's can help those who have ad/hd, we need to seriously consider them without feeling embarrassed or accusatory for breathing the words ad/hd and autism spectrum in the same breath. there is no shame in the spectrum. i think we have to move past stigma of the word, and look at how we can best help those affected so that they can fully and comfortably integrate into society to the extent they desire.

I don't think you're getting it quite, we don't stigmatize autism, or even have much fear of it. There are other comorbids that say "lacks empathy' and those are the sociopathic disorders of personality. Have you checked into just what this might mean from a stigmatizing point of view?


i hope i haven't offended anyone. it is truly not my intent. rather, i am on a mission in my own life to improve communications and interactions between those affected with ad/hd and the asd's professionally, and now, personally.

[/quote]


No one is mad at you, however, when you enter the ring.. with adhd'ers and we're the majority it's going to be a little louder, a little less genteel and hopefully that gets a bit accepted. We enjoy a good stimulating bout.
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Old 06-09-12, 06:13 PM
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Re: Lack of "appreciation" from ADD partner?

actually, ginnie, you have given me a project. I am heading to a professional conference in a couple of weeks. At that conference we are laying some groundwork from the U.S. side of the border for another consortium later this fall. I am fortunate to have been invited to be a part of that consortium between the U.S. and Canada, when we meet to coordinate some practical applications in treatment. Canada has some great things going, and we want some of their ideas. the U.S. has some great things going and they want some of our ideas. all on the application of physical and cognitive therapies. I think it might be a really great thing to bring up at the consortium that there are no articles or guides to help the ad/hd person to deal with the NT world. maybe that's one of the applications we need to look at in treatment techniques.

by the way, children with asd's do not always get lifetime therapies either. at least not occupational and physical therapies. they are not considered to be "cures," so there is very limited access to them for anyone with a disorder. i have been working with a TBI patient for the past 4 years. she could no longer receive governmental nor insurance assistance because they had "done everything they could do for her." limited access is not unique to ad/hd.
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