"Bipolar ADHD" - Bipolar people similar to ADHD people.

[mrsmith]

Originally Posted by ginniebean

There is no continuum. There is comorbidity.

Are you saying there is no continium :-) or that comorbidity is the correct phrase?

[mctavish23]

There's a well established "One Way Comorbidity" between Bipolar and ADHD.

Specifically, over 90% of children / adolescents with (authentic) Early Onset

(Pediatric) Bipolar Disorder also have ADHD, while the opposite is not true.

The empirically (research) supported characteristics found to accurately

differentiate between the two groups (Bipolar + ADHD vs ADHD alone), are

as follows :

1) Elevated and expansive moods (either with or without subsequent depression)
(The length of time helps determine which "type" is more likely);

2) Grandiose or "Know it all" behavior, even for things they know nothing about
(For little kids, that translates to "bossy");

3) Racing thoughts / Flight of ideas (so many thoughts they can't express them all
or visibly struggle trying to);

4) Decreased need for sleep (able to get by on just a few hours sleep (or none),
and still adequately function the next day);

5) Hypersexualized behavior (self-stimulation, excessive pleasure seeking, blurting
out sexualized language in public,etc.).

Two excellent references on the above data are :

Barbara Geller, MD and James Chandler, MD.

Hope that helps.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

[mrsmith]

What about Bipolar Type ADHD instead of Bipolar ADHD?

Note that part of my question if this is a useful concept the way I define it.

Typical ADHD would be the the most common genetic hyperactive ADHD responding well to Ritalin. I think it is different from Bipolar ADHD, and that it is not common with BD, partly because of the response to Ritalin.
(But I don't know so much about this).

So there would be no continuum towards ADHD or typical ADHD, but I am not sure about Bipolar ADHD.

[mrsmith]

Originally Posted by mctavish23

There's a well established "One Way Comorbidity" between Bipolar and ADHD.

If this is a ADHD type which is a small subset of ADHD, then the cormorbidity the other way would be much higher, the same if we include more invisible BD.

[mctavish23]

I apologize if that wasn't clear enough.

Here's the deal....

Comorbid obviously means "co-occurring."

In this sense, Bipolar is the principal diagnosis, with ADHD being ancillary (secondary).

The "type" I was referring to dealt with Bipolar Disorder.

As you know, there are several distinct types, just like ADHD.

One thing to keep in mind is that these are both highly genetic.

However, ADHD individuals without a family history of Bipolar Disorder, are not going

to suddenly "become" Bipolar, without some outside catalyst, like methaphetamine

induced mania.

Also, no one with ADHD -PI Type (aka "ADD") is going to viewed as "manic."

That would be a classic oxymoron.

I hope that clearer.

Once again, those are excellent references to check out.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

[Abi]

Mr Smith,

For the love of GOD and all that is good, could you PLEASE STOP SAYING "BIPOLAR ADHD"

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BIPOLAR ADHD

Saying "bipolar ADHD" is the equivalent of saying "high blood pressure diabetes"

It is nonsensical and EXTREMELY ANNOYING

[mctavish23]

Agreed. There is no such thing as "Bipolar ADHD".

There is NO subset with ADHD.

They are two separate and distinct disorders.

tc

mctavish23

(Robert)

[mrsmith]

Originally Posted by Abi

Mr Smith,

For the love of GOD and all that is good, could you PLEASE STOP SAYING "BIPOLAR ADHD"

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BIPOLAR ADHD

Saying "bipolar ADHD" is the equivalent of saying "high blood pressure diabetes"

It is nonsensical and EXTREMELY ANNOYING

I think it should be quite clear from the question what I mean, so I think you should propose a better expression, or come with more well-funded answer to the questions.

About "high blood pressure diabetes". With high blood pressure it is probably more likely to be diabetes II, so "high blood pressure" does say something about the nature of the diabetes, but as the conditions are well understood it doesn't make sense to see them together this way.
(I don't think you will find a forum called "High Blood Pressure and Diabetes" :-)

Also, beeing disposed for high blood pressure is not quite the same as being disposed for "visible" Bipolar Disorder.

[sarahsweets]

Originally Posted by mrsmith

I think it should be quite clear from the question what I mean, so I think you should propose a better expression, or come with more well-funded answer to the questions.

About "high blood pressure diabetes". With high blood pressure it is probably more likely to be diabetes II, so "high blood pressure" does say something about the nature of the diabetes, but as the conditions are well understood it doesn't make sense to see them together this way.
(I don't think you will find a forum called "High Blood Pressure and Diabetes" :-)

Also, beeing disposed for high blood pressure is not quite the same as being disposed for "visible" Bipolar Disorder.

I am not quite clear of what you are getting at. Are you asking or proposing that a new subset be developed called bipolar adhd? As far as proposing a better expression, unless you re-vamp the entire DSM you will only have BP with adhd or adhd with BP, the two may be connected but not their own subset. Plenty of people with adhd do not have BP and plenty of people with BP do not have adhd. Keeping the two linked as you seem to be proposing would be a disservice to those who have one or both of the disorders because by lumping them in together you are not giving..."fair" treatment to the disorders on their own. My daughter has some mood issues along with adhd but I wouldnt want this magical new subset to be slapped on her if indeed she did actually have bipolar. I would want each disorder throuroughly evaluated and treated.

[mrsmith]

Originally Posted by sarahsweets

I am not quite clear of what you are getting at

I am not "getting at" anything. I am just asking some questions.

Originally Posted by sarahsweets

unless you re-vamp the entire DSM you will only have BP with adhd or adhd with BP, the two may be connected but not their own subset.

I do think ADHD is a collection of different conditions, but actually in the DSM you have different subtypes. If for example the distribution between these, and the response to medication is the same as in other ADHD populations, it would indicate that it is the "same" ADHD.
(I though since stimulants are "bad" for people with BP, it would be a "different kind" of ADHD. I understand now that this is not the case, as the problem is in the interaction with the BP issues)

Originally Posted by sarahsweets

Keeping the two linked as you seem to be proposing

I am not linking them more than others I think.

(I will reformulate my question in a new post in about 1/2 hour)

[mrsmith]

When I wrote my question, I though Bipolar diagnosis would exclude an ADHD diagnosis, I apologize for the confusion.

Is the ADHD in comorbid Bipolar/ADHD, the same ADHD as in other ADHD populations? (I am thinking a bit about dr Amens different ADHD types).
Is it as stable through life as in other ADHD populations?

Is it like have completely independent conditions, with no particular characteristics except those associated with the conditions?

If the BPness is not "visible" (Not Developed or sub-threshold for example) is it just like any other ADHD?

[Lunacie]

Originally Posted by mrsmith

I think it should be quite clear from the question what I mean, so I think you should propose a better expression, or come with more well-funded answer to the questions.

About "high blood pressure diabetes". With high blood pressure it is probably more likely to be diabetes II, so "high blood pressure" does say something about the nature of the diabetes, but as the conditions are well understood it doesn't make sense to see them together this way.
(I don't think you will find a forum called "High Blood Pressure and Diabetes" :-)

Also, beeing disposed for high blood pressure is not quite the same as being disposed for "visible" Bipolar Disorder.

I do see what Abi was saying. I have ADHD and cormorbid Anxiety.

I don't write this as ADHD/Anxiety. I say I have ADHD and Anxiety.

I haven't seen a forum called "ADHD and Bipolar" either, so I don't get your point there?

[ginniebean]

I think the problem here is the development of a crude diagnostic theory. In the OP's experience she thinks she's been seeing something she's determined as bipolar/adhd.

This is a part of the learning process, to come up with ideas but when the information is partial it's easy to get thrown off track.

This is most certainly not unique to the OP, you can see this when people start diagnosing others on the forum, or suggesting potential diagnosis.

[mrsmith]

Originally Posted by ginniebean

I think the problem here is the development of a crude diagnostic theory. In the OP's experience she thinks she's been seeing something she's determined as bipolar/adhd.

This is a part of the learning process, to come up with ideas but when the information is partial it's easy to get thrown off track.

This is most certainly not unique to the OP, you can see this when people start diagnosing others on the forum, or suggesting potential diagnosis.

For me this is complete nonsense. At least its not related to me.

(I used the expression "Bipolar ADHD". I used "bipolar/adhd" only as in "comorbid bipolar/adhd")

[ginniebean]

Otherwise I see there is BD-NOS - "sub-threshold" bipolar. I guess these persons can have "Bipolar ADHD", and this should be diagnosed as ADHD, if it is knows that they are bipolar.

Ok. I was not trying to hurt your feelings or insult you, I do see you grasping to understand and quotes like the above kinda make that clear.

I have no problem when people are searching for answers and I don't care to make people feel stupid. We can all learn more.