Where do you draw the line?

[Drewbacca]

Originally Posted by Tisha

Please..if you have any other words of wisdom (from being this type of personality), what can I do to help him help himself? What gets throught to them?

Every situation varies so much that I'm not sure there is any generalized advise that will help you or the OP. It's not just ADHD but the age in general. Remember what you were like at 19. I, for one, thought I knew it all. It's hard to reason with know it alls. Add to that the lack of career options these days. There aren't many options out side of continuing with school unless you want to work in the service industry... that in of itself is a lot of pressure on a kid that struggled through high school.

[ginniebean]

Originally Posted by Tisha

Ginniebean,

You'll have to forgive me as we just had a terrible day yesterday. Found out he snuck out of the house (again), and found lighters in his pockets. So, I'm not in a very good mood today.

I agree with you that he can't "escape" his ADHD, the way we can in a certain sense. We know that and it brings a profound sadness to our lives.

He was actually diagnosed with ADHD-NOS, as he only has 5 symptoms. He is on meds, doesn't seem to help motivate him to do work, but makes his personality more pleasant to be around. I think he has something else going on that isn't being diagnosed. He's not SCT, as his working memory is very good, and his "speed" can't think of the professional word for it was 115 on his IQ test. But he does have that sluggish personality when not on meds. It's very frustrating not to know exactly what is wrong with him, or know how to help him. He fights us and doesn't seem to want to help himself, only take med (and only when in school). We've tried Career coaching, he hates to see psychologists because "he's not ADD" according to him. He doesn't own this...I guess part of the maturity problems. His is an executive dysfunction problem. I don't know. Listen, I'm getting ready to l eave an won't be logged back on until Monday.

Please..if you have any other words of wisdom (from being this type of personality), what can I do to help him help himself? What gets throught to them?
Tisha

Tisha,

This is confusing to me. He doesn't have enough symtoms for a full diagnosis and your experience of him is this severe? Something is not adding up, you are right. Potentially I'd be looking at aspergers.

He can't own it because he truly cannot see it, self awareness is pretty dim at that age. It's so frustrating.

Any wisdom I have is don't give up. It's so hard and I am so aware of how hard it is on the parent.

I did everything wrong according to the experts, I'm the most soft hearted person with my children, I can't help it.

In part because I have adhd I knew .. I just knew that certain things were just impossible and we'd have to just ride it out.

When my youngest was two he'd already racked up thousands of damage.

I had my own experience of no one knowing what adhd was, how hard I tried, how oblivious I was. How oblivious everyone was about what my experience was.

I just felt so strongly that until my birdies could fly on their own I had to be there for them.

My son moved out when he was 18, it was a mistake, I knew it was a mistake and I tried to talk him out of it. He was determined. I thought things were going ok, until he called me saying he lost his job, hadn't paid his rent in three months and his utilities were getting cut off oh .. and he had no food.

I forked over, paid it all, got him back on his feet, but it didn't work, finally I said, I'm tapped out kiddo, you need to move back home I can't afford you living on your own. He was so stressed out, he got involved with all the wrong people, did drugs that scared the crap out of me. There were nights when I was all alone, sitting up, not able to sleep and feeling absolute terror for him.

He came back home, it was awful at first, he was so stressed out that his behaviour was all over the map, one minute he'd be happy, the next biting my head off. I took all the pressure off of him, told him, just go do your job and have fun with your life, be a kid for a bit. In about six months he stabilized emotionally, and I asked him to start paying rent, I put some of it in a fund for him to move out again when he was ready. He stayed another year with me and when he left, he was ready, he was a happy boy again, he was confident and I did have to drag him to get all the ID he had lost, open a bank account which he couldn't without his ID.

These kids seem to turn a corner around 23-24 yrs old as long as they get some support and understanding. This age seems to be when they catch up to other children who are becoming adults.

I'm so sorry if what I wrote seemed harsh. I know as parents we don't need any more guilt. We do need encouragement because this condition is so damned discouraging.

My son almost never needs help anymore, on rare occaision something out of the ordinary comes up and no, he's not prepared for it. I get that, so I prepare for it.

I know, I'm supposed to be doing things the way the experts say we should but I think some of those experts are idiots to be honest. You can love your child thru this, and you know, he will appreciate it, they may not express it that often in the midst of it, but I know my son appreciates all I've done for him and he doesn't feel like a bag of crap for it because I refused to allow that too.

I am so guilty of being too soft, but it worked. I know everyone is not like me, not temperamentally, not in patience etc... I do know that these kids respond to someone understanding them, they work harder when they know you do know how hard it is for them, they want to get your approval, they need it like a person dying of thirst. It will work wonders.

As parents, it's too easy for us to get caught up in all the things our kids don't do, we don't see what they are doing and when they do get things right, praise praise praise but make it about something real. There's nothing more motivating than praise and approval, there's nothing more demotivating than it's absense.

I can't say I have all the answers or even many of them. Sometimes I just wish I could take all the kids that are struggling and help them thru it myself but.. .. all I can do is hope that something I say makes a difference.


These years are the hardest, and your support thru them is critical to success. That I know for sure. What that support looks like may differ from mine and that's ok. Parents, it will end.. they will move out, and you will be happy for them.. but they cannot do this without you.

I wish I had more..

[Fuzzy12]

los and tisha I'm sorry for everything You are going through. You sound exhausted.

I agree with ginnie though the more you understand adhd the more you can help your son and yourself.

I was a relatively well behaved teenager but i too was always late. I knew my parents were at home waiting for me and worrying but i still never managed to be on time. I still forgot to call them. The thing that is supposed to help with adhd is intervention at the point performance. If you lecture him before he leaves the house or long after he has returned it is unlikely to make a difference. most adhders don't want to cause trouble and worries but often we can't help it. We need help but very specific help. What might work on normal teenagers won't help someone with adhd. We struggle with time and usually have a lousy memory. We get too easily distracted. If there is anything even slightly interesting going on we might forget about going home or calling or we might just forget in that moment how important it is that we do go home. This is the moment when you can interfere. The point of performance.

Have you tried calling your son 10-20 min before he is expected to be home. Maybe you Will ha e call repeatedly when he is about to leave and if he is unwilling then you can explain to him your reasons. Right at that moment when he is supposed to be doing something. Similarly don't tell him to keep his room clean because even if he wants to clean he is likely to procrastinate it forever. Maybe once a week you can take him aside and ask him to clean right then. Maybe you could inhal help him to get him started or promise him some kind of reward that he'll get once he has done. I'm not sure what punishment you can use on a 19 year old but the consequence has to be pretty immediate to make an impression.

whatever you decide to do though he Will still screw up from time to time, more than other kids and painful and difficult that might be you Will just have to learn to live with it somehow. Make things easier for both of you. Give him a key, maybe with a huge and heavy key chain so that he notices it when they have gone missing. Or maybe you could attach the key somehow to his wallet. Could you use ear plugs so that you don't wake up when he comes home?

I realise that all these tips are quite simplistic and I'm sure that they only cover the tip of the iceberg but these are the kind of things that might help. I hope. Another thing would be to just ask him what he thinks might help. You could ask him what he thinks he needs to help him be on time.

more than anything try to make him read up on adhd. Or maybe a psychiatrist could sit down and explain it to him. You could learn about adhd together. That you show him that you want to understand him and are making a huge effort to help him and be supportive.

Another thing, try to get a break from time to time. Just sometime to yourself to recharge your batteries and where you can relay and don't have to deal with all your problems and worries.

[Fuzzy12]

tisha, regarding the lighters you found, a lot of adhders self medicate especially in the absence of treatment. Nicotine has an effect on doPamine uptake. I smoke because it help me to focus and concentrate and it also calms me down. Not the smartest thing to do but i haven't found anything else that helps me.

[sarahsweets]

The more you know the more you will understand that this is a neurological condition that is often difficult to control even with meds. Once you learn to love your son for who he is and accept the difficulties he has the easier it will be to work on a solid treatment plan.

[happytexas]

I don't really have any been there-done that advice for you (my ds is only 8yo (diagnosed at 6yo) and underneath my ADHD I was a pretty responsible teen) but I have a couple of suggestions.

If he never learned the skills necessary to be self-sufficient, just expecting it isn't going to get you far. If his therapist could act as an ADHD coach (or recommend someone for this purpose) he could have someone other than mom to be his primary to work on this with him.

I read "Genius! Nurturing the Spirit of the Wild, Odd, and Oppositional Child" by George T. Lynn, after seeing it recommended here. I think it may help give you some direction as it talks a lot about teens/young adults, their "genius," and the parental relationship with that child. It may also help you find the right therapist to work with your ds as an individual and your family; negotiating what kind of help he needs/wants and how to give it.

One of the books I read last summer (it may have been Genius) recommended taking more of a team approach to a problem; ex. he needs to get his license so that he can be responsible for his own transportation, to get his license he needs to practice--how often do you/he think he needs to practice? when should the practices be scheduled? how would he prefer to be reminded? what do you/he think the consequence should be when he doesn't keep this appointment? Then write down the results and post it where it could be referenced easily (perhaps with a good size family calendar). Sometimes even my dh and I have to do something similar with each other--"I want to help, how would you prefer to be helped?"; your ds might not be sure now, but the right therapist (with experience working with ADHD teens/adults) could help him learn to think it through.

Can he be responsible for a smart phone? There are some relatively cheap options for smart phones nowadays (unless you live at the bottom of my hill ). You should be able to link all family phones to a single calendar; perhaps he would agree to a family meeting once a week to coordinate schedules and to make sure all his commitments are entered in the phone calendar. I carry a paperback size calendar in my purse where everything gets written first, then I imput that information in my phone agenda, and often I set an additional alarm on my phone for recurring or important appointments. I also wear a WatchMinder3 to help me keep track of time (I set it to buzz every 30 minutes) and to remind me to exercise, clean, get ready to pick-up the children from school, etc.

A book that I recently bought to work with my ds (his speech therapist used it) is "Social Behavior Mapping"; part of the intro addresses adult children:

...this tool was created to help students develop a more solid understanding of how their behaviors directly impact the natural or artificial consequences imposed on them as a result of their behavioral acts. Many parents reported to me that their young adult children did not understand the relationship between their child's own behavioral actions and their received consequences. Thus, these adult children would frequently get mad at their parent for providing a consequence rather than understand why they received the consequence to begin with.

Also, dealing with college financial aid can be quite overwhelming; he could probably do most or all of this online. You could offer to sit with him (perhaps on a weekend morning when he is fresh and already there) and help him get through it all--it's going to require a fair amount of personal financial information from you anyway since he's under 23.

One more book that may be helpful for him is "More Attention, Less Deficit" which addresses ADHD in adults. Perhaps he views ADHD as a child's affliction and doesn't see how it could possibly matter to him as an adult.

[Ms. Mango]

My son is also too young for me to give any constructive help (9 yo). What the OP describes, though, is something I've worried about possibly happening down the road.

I've read this thread a little differently than some of you and have some questions to throw out to those of you who have btdt.

The OP describes a teen/young adult who has been diagnosed not only with ADHD, but ODD as well. That's important to note. While many here think the OP is in denial (and she may be a bit and/or could use some additional information about ADHD/ODD) the person I really think is in denial is her son. How is she supposed to help him if he is refusing to help himself? 30% rule or no, chronologically he's 19--there's not much she can do if he thinks everyone else is the problem. A lot of the behaviors she describes as having difficulty with are not just ADHD behaviors, they're ODD behaviors. Personally, I don't think things have a hope of getting turned around unless the son chooses to go back on medication. How do you get a grown child to even consider that?

The OP did say that they tried various therapists but didn't say if they were for DS or her or the family. I would encourage her to look into family therapy. I think there is a dynamic--at least between the OP and her son--of being locked into certain actions and reactions. Medication for DS would be more beneficial than therapy, but therapy can shine a light on the dysfuction that has thrown everyone (and I mean everyone, not just the son) in a repeating loop of troubled behaviors.

My son was not diagnosed with ODD, but I think he was headed in that direction. With the right medication we saw an almost immediate suspension of the opposition. His doctor picked up on this in the next appointment and remarked that things will continue to improve because, as his unmedicated behavior began to deteriorate, we matched it with unproductive behaviors of our own. Which then just upped our son's defiance even more. Once he stopped being so defiant we relaxed, once we relaxed he became less defiant. Then we could work with him, parent him, and he could be receptive to that instead of reacting as if under attack.

But, I was dealing (still am) with a minor child. What if your child is no longer a child? Can you force him to get help? Probably not. And then what? How is this any different than having an adult child with a drug or alcohol problem or some other mental/medical condition? At what point is her help not help at all but enabling this dysfunctional cycle to continue?

[Tisha]

A big thank you all for your responses. It was an exhausting weekend, a bad one. We ended up having a big talk with him last night about college, owning his disability, taking his meds (not just to help his studying but for his personality). I really believe he has ADHD, I've gone back and read the symptoms. It's not aspergers, he's extremely social. I have a niece with that, and I know the difference.

It's going to be quite a challenge in college for him, he's immature..a hallmark symptom. The uni he is going to has an awesome free tutoring program, they encourage to set up weekly sessions. They even have a Supplemental instruction program, for about 2 dozen classes that have high failure rates. These are group meetings, the instructors help more, give out practice tests, study guides...really help the kids who seek it out. I'm pulling up articles that talk about how meds don't do all the work, that studies show ADHD kids need supplemental help along with the meds to get thru school...especially that freshman year. I've been so mad this year, I've had the "sink or swim" mentally towards him, but now realize I have to help him swim for awhile, because i know he can't do it on his own. I just wish he would accept this and let us help him, like my other son does. This one is so angry and obstinate.

He's currently signed up for a full load...15 hours, and none of it are pud classes. I'm wondering if he should drop one, take his first semester down to 12 hours so he's not so overwhelmed.

Thanks again for the support. Tisha

[gpfan5]

Tisha, I noticed you are also in Indy. we do have a local CHADD group here that starts back up in Sept. I've only been once, but that may help give you some emotional support.

Also has your son gone online to this forum? We are dealing with a lot of backtalk from my daughter right now so I got online to see if I could find some solutions. It reminded me that eventually I want to let her get online into the "kids with ADD" group or whatever it's called (I have ADD, too - can you tell?

Hope things are improving for you, bit by bit!

Jennifer

[tudorose]

He's 19. Old enough to move out. Our HFA son has moved out into a share house. He is so much happier now that he can do what he wants, when he wants. At that age they need to take responsibility for their own lives and find themselves as young men. We all get along much better now that we're not living in the same house. When my Dad was that age he not only left home, he left the country. For me personally I got married at 18. It's a hard stage of life to be living under your parents rules. Maybe some time looking after himself might help.