The OTHER kind of 'attention deficit disorder'

[dopestep]

Originally Posted by Florence1989

i screwed my entire life up every step of the way, had childhood diagnosis and still didnt receive treatment...when i was diagnosed as an adult ...not an easy diagnosis to come by over here in the UK my consultant was thoroughly disgusted that i had been left so long without correct care...not a lot of people floating around my way with adhd diagnosis...dyslexia is another thing though......

i often wonder how i wasnt diagnosed as a child.... i had 11 referrals in first grade. my principal told my dad that i set a record for the school. one that i still currently uphold . my teacher actually kicked me out of her class permanently and i had to be switched to a different teacher. by middle school i picked up my first criminal offense. i was arrested for possesion of marijuana on campus. got my second arrest in high school for petty theft. not only did i obviously fit the criteria for impulsive but i also struggled with grades as well. i was only able to pass high school because i score high on tests. my grade breakdown always looked exactly the same. high test scores + non existent HW scores = C average. now that im in college the tides have turned and ive failed 3 consecutive semesters in a row. i was only taking like 3 classes a semester too. for someone who was always told they were a "smart person" i sure do look like a dumb *** on paper.

before i knew i was adhd all these things used to tear me up inside. none more-so than the social aspect. i remember one year in highschool i lost my entire group of friends and it really ****** with my head. one of my friends was slightly older and got his car before the rest of us. he started taking my group of friends off campus every day for lunch and it was all good until he started telling me that his car was full every single day. this meant that he was taking all of our friends to lunch and leaving me at school. i didnt have anyone else to hangout with who stayed at school. so alot of the times id just walk around campus pretending i was on my way somewhere until lunch ended. this hurt me so much i cant even begin to describe it. on paper i was just like everyone else in my group of friends.. i liked to skate, i listened to the same music, everyone always told me i was hilarious. i didnt know i had adhd. i had to find the reason why all my friends would just throw me aside like that.... i just kept wondering day n night what was wrong with me? after a while i decided in my head that it must be the way i look. prior to this experience i always had high self esteem (basically i thought i was the **** and i knew i was good looking) because of the circumstances however, i couldnt deduce any other possible reasons my friends would abandon me. in my mind it was because i figured they wanted to pick up girls at lunch and they thought if i was there i would scare them away. (which is ridiculous because at the time i was the only one in my group who had a couple different girlfriends before) so i developed this negative self esteem and this weird obsessive habit of wearing a hat so i didnt have to worry about my hair being messed up. two years went by like that until i had my own car and had found a new group of friends. at that point i started partying with one friend in particular which lead me to eventually dating a cheerleader which helped with my self esteem and made me feel alot more confident about my personal appearance.


long story short? not everyone with adhd is super obvious. sometimes we look at the achievements of others and say look how accomplished that person is, theres no way they could have a major disorder like adhd. what we dont see is the internal struggle that person is suffering through. if you saw me at a party with my gf you mighta thought "wow i wish i was that guy, he has a cheerleader gf and he looks confident about his life." but in reality a few months prior to that i was crying myself to sleep wondering why cant i be someone else.

[Flory]

the gist of my post i guess was that i was super obvious and still didnt get treated...without being confontational/nasty...the op just annoyed me slightly because in actuality getting a correct diagnosis over here at least is not as easy as 'oh wow i have add'..i dont have time to be ****** off about people that got one that might not have it etc etc...the fact is i have it and im being treated..let others be yanno ? and in reality a decent psych can tell real adhd a mile off...another member posted a while a go about a malingering test potentiall being added into diagnostics because of the steep increase in drug seeking particularly for adhd meds...too damn right

[dopestep]

Originally Posted by Florence1989

the gist of my post i guess was that i was super obvious and still didnt get treated...without being confontational/nasty...the op just annoyed me slightly because in actuality getting a correct diagnosis over here at least is not as easy as 'oh wow i have add'..i dont have time to be ****** off about people that got one that might not have it etc etc...the fact is i have it and im being treated..let others be yanno ? and in reality a decent psych can tell real adhd a mile off...another member posted a while a go about a malingering test potentiall being added into diagnostics because of the steep increase in drug seeking particularly for adhd meds...too damn right

i live in america and i was diagnosed over a year ago. (almost 2 now) i received my clinical diagnosis from a psychologist and was referred to a psychiatrist to get treated. the psychiatrist spent about 30 secs asking me questions and then out of nowhere concluded that i was subthreshold adhd with an anxiety disorder. she prescribed me an antidepressant. i left her office, threw the prescription away and never went back.

i tried to just push through and deal with it on my own. figured i could get through college the same way i got through high school. now ive spent 2 years attending classes with nothing to show for it and im realizing more and more every day that i really do needa go back and get proper treatment. i cant sustain like this forever

[daveddd]

Originally Posted by Avalanche

OK, some people may not appreciate this contribution, others probably will appreciate it very much. So, warning in advance.

I get extremely annoyed with people who have butttload of other problems which can produce the same types of symptoms as ADHD... who get tested and diagnosed with ADHD because some dumbwit doesn't know how to look further than her scoring instrument.... and then the newly diagnosed aDHDer uses the diagnosis to get attention; or to get excused... or the like. I've seen it in people with autism as well, and one lucky gal went about proudly showing off her TWO brand-new diagnoses. These are all adults, by the way. I probably run into these types more often than others, because I work in psychiatry.

Don't get me wrong; I know these people are really suffering from some pretty real issues.
Their 'attention deficit' means they want more attention from other people. Usually the main problem is a personality disorder. There are SO many other things that can mimic ADHD symptoms, without it actually being ADHD (in terms of a neurobiological developmental issue). Yes, I know the symptoms are similar... and a child who later develops borderline personality disorder probably has had enough stress to cause ADHD-like symptoms... but the inner wiring is different. And I'd love the person who does the diagnostic intake to actaully realise this.

I think my main issue may be that these kinds of people are getting stimulants -which they don't need- and are contributing to the whole discussion of ADHD being nonsense...and that stimulants are prescribed too often. (They are prescribed too often to the wrong people) THEIR ADHD is nonsense. Mine is very real, and so is the ADHD of many other people... Please don't compare me with someone with borderline personality disorder and tell me that it will go away if I find a husband who loves me, if I pray for it and so forth.

Just sharing a bit of frustration here, and maybe someone else feels the same?

Maybe in the future we'll have super scanners that can select the right people.

And, if I'm honest, I'm rather shocked to discover how much of who I am turns out to be linked to ADHD. Fascinated too, in an academic way.
And there's a big difference: I have and had a steady sense of who I am... opposed to most of those with the 'other' type of ADD. I'm not trying to talk down the severity of their mental illness; and I respect them as people and understand that they're suffering and can't manage really well... but just... PLEASE....

I get what you are saying

I have been questioned on why I need meds unless I'm studying a subject I hate all night


But honestly. "ADHD" is just a group of symptoms.


Like Barkley says if u fit the diagnostic criteria of ADHD. U are ADHD

Not to mention PDs have been heavily linked to ADHD ,especially BPD


http://www.addforums.com/forums/show...06#post1333906

[fracturedstory]

I hide my ADHD diagnosis along with my autism diagnosis under my bed.
However, I do advocacy through my blog so people know I have them.

I'm like the poster child for stereotypical autism. I get annoyed when people try to challenge the stereotypes because it makes me feel less autistic. But I've been this way since I was a toddler and I've had severe communication, learning and adjustment problems (you know, that fear of change thing, right?). I've also been unable to learn in a classroom setting except when I started ADHD medication. I was well out of school by that time though.

It's allright to get annoyed. I know someone who got told by their doctor people can develop ADHD later in life, and not through serious brain trauma. I didn't say anything but I think stimulant medication makes this person worse. It brings out the mania.

Doctors do get it wrong, they are not always thorough. I don't think my doctor was, even after an MRI. I would gladly sit any ADHD test to show my poor memory, distracted mind, easily getting over things and freaking the hell out when told to do mental math which requires more concentration than my natural level of neurotransmitters can handle. I could even do without the autism diagnosis except my strange repetitive behaviour, obsession with interests and lack of desire for people often caused by a chaotic environment and not enough dogs, will make me feel uncomfortable without it. I don't like change neither.

I'm critical of milder diagnoses for ADHD and AS, like people are critical of the existence of AS too.

The only disorders I complain about are migraines, hypoglycaemia and seizures. They are kind of life threatening.

I get what you're saying and I think a lot of people get defensive about it, for a lack of scientific evidence to prove this theory, and feel slightly insulted that it could be about them. I think. I'm not reading properly. Meds wore off. But doctors do get it wrong and they don't always do a thorough job. And with 100's of other disorders that mimic ADHD it can be hard to know what a person has for sure. But if you've been like me and haven't changed since your childhood except when you got on medication, then that's a clear indicator that it might just be ADHD. I've even compared people with just autism to me and there's a differences in our executive dysfunction.

OK, hypoglycaemia is about take my life so I better get started on dinner.

[Avalanche]

Davedd: ADHD is a neurobiological development disorder; not just a set of behaviours and symptoms. The criteria are meant to describe the symptoms, and a good clinician will know to pay attention to criterion E http://www.ldawe.ca/DSM_IV.html
And that's my point.

The only conclusion of the article you linked to is that ADHD may be a risk factor for the development of cluster B personality disorders; but the research doesn't have enough scientific power to prove anything; let alone as strongly as you're quoting it. In a broader perspective this is obvious: ADHD puts you at risk for many of the things that enhances your risk of developing a personality disorder.

Perhaps, theoretically, 'mild' ADHD in someone with a pretty severe BPD, is not even clinically relevant. 'Mild' ADHD can be managed without drugs; and treatment for BPD involves interventions which would also benefit the mild ADHD... and it's not like these people are really going to be functioning normally, as their other psychiatric conditions prevent this. I'm not sure, but theoretically, giving stimulants to these people may be harmful in terms of their BPD; especially since it's easy to overshoot your dosage and they're more likely to abuse it. (Like the bloke who ODed on Ritalin and had to be sedated and taken to the ICU after his girlfriend broke up with him; or someone I know who really has a history of childhood ADHD but 'outgrew' it like many -she only exhibits ADHD when she's seriously overtriggered.. the only time I've witnessed that was when I was this serious overtrigger- and she has classic BPD. She doens't use Ritalin anymore, it does the same to her now as it does to non-ADHD people... but she overdosed on it because of some random reason).

Fractured: Autism and ADHD are linked, just like DCD and ADHD are linked... now I can't remember the exact details (because, much like autistic people, I tend to think without words) but I was extremely fascinated by the range of neurobiological brain development problems.... it's like a nice little palet ranging from schizophrenia through to ADD.


Anyhow. My ADHD is very real, and I managed to have a couch day for the first time in I haven't got a clue how long (Primary school? I was extremely passive then because of DCD: being active required more attention than I had) after taking Ritalin. My own diagnosis allows me to get treatment so that I can get more out of my own life... I've survived enough. I wasn't even after drugs: prescribing them to myself would have simply been easier AND cheaper... I wanted coaching. The peace and quiet Ritalin gives me is just... I didn't even know this was possible. Thinking clearly is such a blessing!

[daveddd]

Originally Posted by Avalanche

Davedd: ADHD is a neurobiological development disorder; not just a set of behaviours and symptoms. The criteria are meant to describe the symptoms, and a good clinician will know to pay attention to criterion E http://www.ldawe.ca/DSM_IV.html
And that's my point.

The only conclusion of the article you linked to is that ADHD may be a risk factor for the development of cluster B personality disorders; but the research doesn't have enough scientific power to prove anything; let alone as strongly as you're quoting it. In a broader perspective this is obvious: ADHD puts you at risk for many of the things that enhances your risk of developing a personality disorder.

Perhaps, theoretically, 'mild' ADHD in someone with a pretty severe BPD, is not even clinically relevant. 'Mild' ADHD can be managed without drugs; and treatment for BPD involves interventions which would also benefit the mild ADHD... and it's not like these people are really going to be functioning normally, as their other psychiatric conditions prevent this. I'm not sure, but theoretically, giving stimulants to these people may be harmful in terms of their BPD; especially since it's easy to overshoot your dosage and they're more likely to abuse it. (Like the bloke who ODed on Ritalin and had to be sedated and taken to the ICU after his girlfriend broke up with him; or someone I know who really has a history of childhood ADHD but 'outgrew' it like many -she only exhibits ADHD when she's seriously overtriggered.. the only time I've witnessed that was when I was this serious overtrigger- and she has classic BPD. She doens't use Ritalin anymore, it does the same to her now as it does to non-ADHD people... but she overdosed on it because of some random reason).

Fractured: Autism and ADHD are linked, just like DCD and ADHD are linked... now I can't remember the exact details (because, much like autistic people, I tend to think without words) but I was extremely fascinated by the range of neurobiological brain development problems.... it's like a nice little palet ranging from schizophrenia through to ADD.


Anyhow. My ADHD is very real, and I managed to have a couch day for the first time in I haven't got a clue how long (Primary school? I was extremely passive then because of DCD: being active required more attention than I had) after taking Ritalin. My own diagnosis allows me to get treatment so that I can get more out of my own life... I've survived enough. I wasn't even after drugs: prescribing them to myself would have simply been easier AND cheaper... I wanted coaching. The peace and quiet Ritalin gives me is just... I didn't even know this was possible. Thinking clearly is such a blessing!

i dont see where it says adhd is a specific disorder, its yet to be proven

and most doubt it

ive read much more on the BPD thing, i just cant post it all

im just saying if they need help with attention, whats the difference

i also havent seen any connection between classic idiopathic autism and adhd

other disorders on the PDD spectrum, yes

so if you can find the link, id love to read it

[sarahsweets]

Originally Posted by Avalanche

Sarah: I am not judging them in the way you seem to be accusing me of. I am actually questioning their diagnosis, and being annoyed with a certain part of their personality disorder behaviour which may affects how people see ME. I am not calling them fakers. Their suffering is very real.
What I am also saying is that some of these ADHD-experts know too little of general psychiatry, or fail to see the bigger picture... and in my humble opinion these people need to be seen by a psychiatrist as well during the diagnostic phase. This does not happen. I wasn't seen by a psychiatrist. The reasoning behind this is that psychiatrists (MD) have had broader training than the psychologists or psych nurses who are often doing the ADHD intakes. (in Holland)

Or, wait, am I completely getting you wrong? If so, sorry. Not at my brightest moment of the day right now.


MadBodger: You're right. Misinformation leads to prejudice. Suppose the important thing is that I am learning to manage my chaos.
And I'm still learning how to do it right; but I'm pretty open about it. There's a massive difference between how I mention I have ADHD, and how these 'probably another problem' people mention it. I might say: 'Look, I have ADHD, if I bother you feel free to remind me to shut up'. It's not the first thing I start with, usually the response is 'I thought so!'. (unfortunately meds do nothing for my hyperactivity). I don't present it as an excuse for my entire life; and I really try very hard to make things work.

I really didnt think you were judging I was just pointing out the alternative theory but I DO AGREE stimulants seemj easier to get when you walk in as a collge student and say doctor I can focus.

[fracturedstory]

Autism, ADHD, schizophrenia share genes, and that whole deletion/duplication of copied number variant genes is pretty much the same too. I've not read about it in some time.

The same areas of the brain are affected. I think it's mainly frontal and temporal. I have temporal lobe epilepsy and a little bit of schizophrenic hallucinations/paranoia bleeds through. I like seeing patterns in neurological conditions.

I see ADHD as a specific disorder. The symptoms might be similar in other disorders but the combination of them in this one condition and how it affects way the person deals with the environment is very different than someone with those symptoms but without ADHD. It's the same for autism. Those naysayers who say AS is either social anxiety disorder or a learning disorder does not account for the fact that there is very close attention to detail (in special interests), repetitive behaviour, dislike of change and those extremely explosive meltdowns. Oh and sensory issues that can be as intense as in severe autism. It's a cluster of symptoms that make up a specific disorder with a very specific cause, or maybe just a random grouping of genes that likes to repeat itself in certain people that makes them behave in similar ways and our primitive science can only associate this with a disorder. I'm not doubting the disorder I'm just saying...well I'm thinking of a game how certain patterns keep recurring. Now I'm thinking of Go Fish. Now I'm thinking I need sleep.

It all makes sense in my mind.

There are ways for people without ADHD to control attention and all those other symptoms without the use of medication. Yeah I know I'm being vague as h*ll but I don't really want to push my brain that extra mile to elaborate my point. I've just seen people that are gifted, BPD, OCD, autistic and how their executive dysfunction is different from ADHD. We all talk about getting overloaded when attempting tasks that involve a lot of mental effort. I never see that in people who are 1)interested in a subject or 2) have BPD/OCD and demand you clean your room and help out. While I am either face flat on the ground or eventually break down because I'm so damn exhausted and need just a little rest before I can continue.

So yeah...what was I saying? ADHD meds were designed to help ADHD brains and should only be prescribed for them. This includes co-morbids too which I am one of.
And narcolepsy too.
Anyone can benefit from stimulant meds - but do they need them as much as we do?

[daveddd]

Originally Posted by fracturedstory

Autism, ADHD, schizophrenia share genes, and that whole deletion/duplication of copied number variant genes is pretty much the same too. I've not read about it in some time.

The same areas of the brain are affected. I think it's mainly frontal and temporal. I have temporal lobe epilepsy and a little bit of schizophrenic hallucinations/paranoia bleeds through. I like seeing patterns in neurological conditions.

I see ADHD as a specific disorder. The symptoms might be similar in other disorders but the combination of them in this one condition and how it affects way the person deals with the environment is very different than someone with those symptoms but without ADHD. It's the same for autism. Those naysayers who say AS is either social anxiety disorder or a learning disorder does not account for the fact that there is very close attention to detail (in special interests), repetitive behaviour, dislike of change and those extremely explosive meltdowns. Oh and sensory issues that can be as intense as in severe autism. It's a cluster of symptoms that make up a specific disorder with a very specific cause, or maybe just a random grouping of genes that likes to repeat itself in certain people that makes them behave in similar ways and our primitive science can only associate this with a disorder. I'm not doubting the disorder I'm just saying...well I'm thinking of a game how certain patterns keep recurring. Now I'm thinking of Go Fish. Now I'm thinking I need sleep.

It all makes sense in my mind.

There are ways for people without ADHD to control attention and all those other symptoms without the use of medication. Yeah I know I'm being vague as h*ll but I don't really want to push my brain that extra mile to elaborate my point. I've just seen people that are gifted, BPD, OCD, autistic and how their executive dysfunction is different from ADHD. We all talk about getting overloaded when attempting tasks that involve a lot of mental effort. I never see that in people who are 1)interested in a subject or 2) have BPD/OCD and demand you clean your room and help out. While I am either face flat on the ground or eventually break down because I'm so damn exhausted and need just a little rest before I can continue.

So yeah...what was I saying? ADHD meds were designed to help ADHD brains and should only be prescribed for them. This includes co-morbids too which I am one of.
And narcolepsy too.
Anyone can benefit from stimulant meds - but do they need them as much as we do?

I get your point

But stimulants are a first line treatment in a few disorders for treatment of I attention and hyperactivity


Fragile x. Smith magnese and several others



The symptoms are the same but not necessarily the cause




And I'm not sure who deserves stimulants and who doesn't





And I'm not arguing I would just like to see something relating classic autism to adhd
I

[Fortune]

That's kind of strange, as there is a lot of material online linking the entire autism spectrum to a high rate of ADHD comorbidity. ADHD-type symptoms were described in Leo Kanner's first paper on autism in the 1940s.

Here's one link that discusses it.

[daveddd]

Originally Posted by Fortune

That's kind of strange, as there is a lot of material online linking the entire autism spectrum to a high rate of ADHD comorbidity. ADHD-type symptoms were described in Leo Kanner's first paper on autism in the 1940s.

Here's one link that discusses it.

Yes I have seen ADHD without a doubt linked to pdds and some people's definition of aspergers

But it seems to be more often linked to the genetic pdd

Where social impairment is caused by hyper arousal , and anxiety/sensory issues

As opposed to idiopathic autism where there is just a lack of interest in other people


Study's have shown over activity in the amygdala during eye contact in the aspergers /pdd nos. but not in "classic autism"(which is also linked to the to much empathy theory)



Sorry if my writing is worse than normal. On my I phone

[Molite]

I was just recently diagnosed on Thursday last week. I made a separate thread posting my LONG journey about finding more about myself. It started this January when I was absolutely desperate. However even before January my life was slowly falling apart. I'm walking across a very thin rope and am about to fall off. I just finished my first year at University and failed my first class. If I keep doing this bad next semester, that's it for me. This wasn't sudden. I was progressively doing worse from beginning of highschool. I knew where I was headed. I barley made it into a decent university. I tried many remedies to get better at school including religion and excercise and nothing ever seemed to help. I was constantly fidgety and slightly impulsive in highschool. I was very antisocial with no friends. I had no motivation and I skipped a ton of classes in junior and senior year. I knew there was something up, it took 5 years but I finally went to someone. I also had symptoms in childhood but my parents are very closed minded and religious so hey didn't think I needed help. This is why I was never diagnosed when I was young. Even at this age they say it's wrong for me to go to a doctor, psychologist, or psychiatrist for mental health. They say that it's because I'm not religious enough. Keep in mind that I didn't know about ADHD or took it seriously before my journey began. I went to my family doctor or quickly wrote me a prescription for Abilify for anxiety/depression. It just made me worse as apparently it's also for bipolar which can make ADHD symptoms worse. I also had blood tests to check for any thyroid disorder or something else. I then went to my Psychiatrist who said I have to then rule out any sleep disorder as I did mention sleep deprivation and falling asleep in classes. After that was clear he ruled out a generalized anxiety disorder as I never had a panic attack. Since I put emphasis on my impulsive behavior as a child and trouble concentrating he finally discussed ADHD. He then came to this conclusion for me. I strongly believe that in my experience you have to actually tell the Psychiatrist that you think it's ADHD or a doctor who is willing to diagnose it (mine wasn't). I think generally they are getting pretty strict and careful to diagnose ADHD. I hear many stories now where some Psychs or GPs won't diagnose it without testing. I had to go through 7 months before I came to ADHD. It fits me clearly. The more I read about it the more I reassure myself. There's not one aspect off ADHD that doesn't fit (maybe there is I just felt I had a lot of similarities). I understand that there is also Psycholgical thing where the more you read about a disease you budge you have it. When I looked for something that was wrong with me I read into so many possibilities. None of which I felt the same way about other than ADHD. I'm not faking and Adderall was a life changer for me so far. I CAN ACTUALLY FOCUS ON ANYTHING. I'm also not "proud" of it where I tell everyone about especially my parents. I needed help and I found it.

[Lunacie]

Originally Posted by daveddd

Yes I have seen ADHD without a doubt linked to pdds and some people's definition of aspergers

But it seems to be more often linked to the genetic pdd

Where social impairment is caused by hyper arousal , and anxiety/sensory issues

As opposed to idiopathic autism where there is just a lack of interest in other people


Study's have shown over activity in the amygdala during eye contact in the aspergers /pdd nos. but not in "classic autism"(which is also linked to the to much empathy theory)



Sorry if my writing is worse than normal. On my I phone

It is not true that social difficulty in Autism is caused by a lack of interest in others.

While that may be true for some, there is a large spectrum of interests in those with Autism, just as those without.

Some of those without Autism have no interest in other people.

This might help to explain: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1011102006.htm

[Avalanche]

I was talking about shared aetiology between these early-onset problems, that's all. Psychiatry is biopsychosocial. There's enough evidence for the neurobiological aetiology for it to be mentioned in psych textbooks.

And Dave, I can't really send you a link to the child and adolescent psychiatry training I received in my intern year. Neither can I send you a link to the relevant courses I did in medical school. Um, I can maybe refer you to Maastricht University's FHML Library? I read/listen to BMJ podcasts, I read the NtVG sometimes (Dutch medical journal)... they had an article on the subject recently... but then I'd have to dig into the stack of journals in my study... and I doubt you read Dutch.