Origin of ADHD has everything to do with proper treatment.

[Peripheral]

Can you direct anyone to a study about how adhd was prevented. I don't see how that can be done. If one never had adhd, how would you know if it was prevented or not. Without clearly being able to show that something was prevented or even preventable in very concrete terms how could it ever seriously be discussed as treatment for a condition that never happened?

Ginnie Bean

Can you show me some research,

about a different way that specific ADHD genes are expressed in general.

Different than Jimmy Fallons explanation about the expression of the CD gene.

In my opinion the science agrees with his explanation in general way,

to the best of my knowledge?


In regards to genetics role in the ADHD impairment,

Genetics , epigenetics and environmental influences are all part of ADHD Causation.



If there is epigenetic and environmental influences,

there might be treatment factors in the environment,

that can help prevent, lessen or emotionally heal (neuroplasticity)

There is a least thousand environmental factors.



.


.
.

[Peripheral]

Fortune,

I sort of agree about your advice to hesitate.

The topics are multifactor.

I forget that sometime when we discuss compare a couple of topics.

Thanks for the reminder.

[angora]

Originally Posted by Drewbacca

Perhaps it is also based on a scale with impatience/easily-frustrated on the mild end and acting out (slamming doors, throwing things, strong emotional response) on the more extreme end.

I can accept that emotional dysregulation is common among ADHD if we focus on the impatient/frustrated side of things but I don't think that the extreme end is all that notable in ADHD.

I really need to reread some of his articles, paying specific attention to the emotional dysregulation issue though, as I've completely ignored it in the past since it didn't seem to apply to me in any meaningful way.

Originally Posted by Amtram

I have a similar problem with Barkley, because sometimes the things he says are so significantly different from my experience and the experiences of others, and I just wonder whether he's wrong, or just saying it in a way that gets my back up so I don't really get what he's saying.

I think that is the problem sometimes with these discussions - if it doesn't match our own personal experience we discount the experience of others.

ADHD doesn't have a homogenous expression and we all react differently to different medicines and treatments.

My family is at the extreme end of emotional dysregulation. Part of it might be due to environment but the fact that my son only kicks holes in the wall when his medication has worn off and I start losing my temper easily and yelling when my medication has worn off makes it pretty clear to me that it is part of our adhd.

[Peripheral]

Thanks Angora,

I am learning a tonne about how research is done from your research link.

I Read it once will need to read the information again.

[Peripheral]

Thanks Namazu,

Same,

I am learning another tonne about the research link you provided.

I am comparing Dr.Barkley's theory with other professional theory.

That format from Barkley is easy to read.

[Peripheral]

Originally Posted by angora

I think that is the problem sometimes with these discussions - if it doesn't match our own personal experience we discount the experience of others.

ADHD doesn't have a homogenous expression and we all react differently to different medicines and treatments.

My family is at the extreme end of emotional dysregulation. Part of it might be due to environment but the fact that my son only kicks holes in the wall when his medication has worn off and I start losing my temper easily and yelling when my medication has worn off makes it pretty clear to me that it is part of our adhd.

From a treatment perspective.

I keep thinking there is one ADHD,

and a thousand ways to treat ADHD.

(Hyperactivity may or may not be present)


I agree

the lack of emotional self-regulation is part of ADHD impairment.

for me anyway.


Side Note: I am working on what that impairment is.

and what parts of the nervous system are involved.

.

[Drewbacca]

Originally Posted by angora

I think that is the problem sometimes with these discussions - if it doesn't match our own personal experience we discount the experience of others.

I think that, while it sometimes may seem that way, this is rarely the case.
But, in so far as what draws our attention, certainly we are better versed on research that does match our experience.

The problem when Barkley suggests a symtom that I can't relate to is that it creates a cognitive dissonance that must be resolved. It means one of four things... either I'm not ADHD, Barkley is wrong, I'm misunderstanding Barkley, or Barkley is correct and I'm just failing to notice a trait that he recognizes in the population.

The only way to resolve the cognitive dissonance is to double down and figure out which puzzle piece isn't fitting. I think that such an action is the complete opposite of discounting the experience of others.

While I say that Dr. Barkley himself may be subjective on this issue, it's highly unlikely given that he has been studying since before I was born. Still, I can't completely write off the possibility that he is wrong either.

[meadd823]

Originally Posted by angora

I think that is the problem sometimes with these discussions - if it doesn't match our own personal experience we discount the experience of others.

ADHD doesn't have a homogenous expression and we all react differently to different medicines and treatments.

My family is at the extreme end of emotional dysregulation. Part of it might be due to environment but the fact that my son only kicks holes in the wall when his medication has worn off and I start losing my temper easily and yelling when my medication has worn off makes it pretty clear to me that it is part of our adhd.

If I do not experience a specific symptom with my ADHD I may have problems relating to it but that is not the same as saying I don't consider their experience as valid.

I can respect some ones experience of ADHD as valid even though I myself am unable to relate to it.


What that has to do with Barkley I have not a clue seeing as Barkley does not himself experience ADHD.


In my opinion he makes some might bold claims for some one who is basically clueless as to what it is like to actually experience ADHD from the inside.

Is it because I dislike his presentations - I can;t relate to his presentations so they are of little use to me but that in no way means other members can not benefit from his publications.

In order to know whether or not a theory matches my experience I have to at the very least consider it. If it does not match my symptoms then I will dismiss a theory as being pertain to me but that is not the same as dismissing some one else's experience who may relate and thus benefit - If any thing because I hold the minority view regarding Russ Barkley it is I who is often dismissed by Barkley adherents.

I see my ADHD as a problem, filtering out stimuli Barkley would say I have inhabtation problems because I can not stop myself from being distracted by un-important stimuli - I find no value in dismissing my interpretation in favor of his because to me - inhibiting means I have a choice to stop the distraction - being bombarded by stimuli because my filtering valve is stuck in the open position indicates I don;t have a choice.

[ginniebean]

Originally Posted by Drewbacca

I need to go back through some of his papers and see, specifically, where he gives examples of emotional dysregulation.

Perhaps it is also based on a scale with impatience/easily-frustrated on the mild end and acting out (slamming doors, throwing things, strong emotional response) on the more extreme end.


I can accept that emotional dysregulation is common among ADHD if we focus on the impatient/frustrated side of things but I don't think that the extreme end is all that notable in ADHD.

This is disturbing to me, because what you call uncommon here is actually VERY common. It is not common among those with later diagnosis but we already know that late diagnosis does not represent the full spectrum of adhd. These behaviours of throwing things, slamming doors, punching walls, kicking holes in walls are not the least bit uncommon.


When people who don't have a symptom on the extreme end of things they have a tendency to think it's just not that common and that is played out on the forums quite a lot. Usually along the lines of "I think there is more than just adhd going on here" There is also a tendency to start moralizing more extreme symptoms and saying.. they should control themselves using themselves as a stellar example of self control. That's particularly disturbing but unfortunately ALL too common.

It's particularly unfortunate because many medical professionals are not aware of the emotional dysregulation as a symptom so instead of getting treated for adhd people with more extreme forms of emotional dysregulation legitimately part of their adhd are being given medication for other disorders. Most specifically bipolar.

My emotional dysregulation is fairly extreme, I've thrown lots of stuff, slammed a whole lot of doors, took a frying pan to a piano... (it was handy) When my emotions gets zapped up, I am running .. RUNNING around.. no place to go, but I'll just not be able to sit still. I look completely bananas to others but I do not have control of it.

I sincerely believe that many people who are barely threshold are getting diagnosis for adhd while people who are more severe are getting more severe psychiatric disorders diagnosed. In good part because those least impacted are doing most of the talking and the medical profession does trivialize adhd to the point that the barely impaired are getting diagnosis.

I know this is going to **** people off but people ARE being harmed by this. BTW, if anyone brings up ye olde ******* contest I'll completely ignore it, it's a derail tactic.



[Somewhere, I got the impression that he was speaking of a more extreme form of emotional dysregulation and that it was somehow tied into his brother's untimely demise. I really need to reread some of his articles, paying specific attention to the emotional dysregulation issue though, as I've completely ignored it in the past since it didn't seem to apply to me in any meaningful way.[/quote]


Barkley has stated that clinic referred adults do not represent the majority of those with adhd. They are much higher functioning (read less impaired)

[Amtram]

I think that's actually a good example of the different ways emotional dysregulation can manifest, without necessarily being a part of symptomology. It reflects the combination of stress levels and the tolerance for stress of the individual, and can be entirely situational rather than characteristic of a disorder itself.

If you read Barkley's story about his brother, he makes the connection between his ADHD and behaviors very aptly. He makes no suggestion that his brother was any kind of a "bad person," but someone who had problems related to his ADHD symptoms throughout his life. When he talks about emotional disregulation, he poses it not as a failure to exhibit control, but an inability caused by working memory and executive function deficits. In his writing, he's very clear in his sympathy towards the difficulties caused by these two specific problems.

[Amtram]

Originally Posted by Geronimoo Back-Y-Rita

Amtram,

Emotions are chemical.

There is no such thing as a non-chemical emotion.

Well, I for one am not ready for them to open my skull and take slices out of my brain to check for this. It's all well and good to know this, but science has not reached the point yet where it can be tested on a living creature - or for the test subject to live subsequent to testing.

[Drewbacca]

Originally Posted by ginniebean

This is disturbing to me, because what you call uncommon here is actually VERY common. It is not common among those with later diagnosis but we already know that late diagnosis does not represent the full spectrum of adhd. These behaviours of throwing things, slamming doors, punching walls, kicking holes in walls are not the least bit uncommon.

How common is very common, quantitatively?


My issue is that it does not apply to me. I know many others with ADHD that it doesn't apply to. I also know many with ADHD that it does apply to.
So, given that there appears to be a large number of ADHD that do not share this quality, is it fair to say that it is an ADHD trait? Granted, it is more common in children who are diagnosed, since the squeaky wheel gets the oil, as they say.

It could be some sort of compounding of disorders, but I doubt that.
It could be environmental influence, characteristics that we learn from our parents... I haven't researched the issue enough though.
It could simply be that ADHD is a tent with a bunch of different disorders included, which is what I'm actually leaning towards.
It could also be situational as Amtram suggests...

My father is a door-slamming, hole punching type and he doesn't have ADHD.
I have ADHD but I don't tend to have emotional outbursts (although I do get annoyed really easily). Take that as you will, I'm not trying to define or pick apart the experience of anyone else. I'm simply putting my experience out there for others to consider.

Originally Posted by ginniebean

Barkley has stated that clinic referred adults do not represent the majority of those with adhd. They are much higher functioning (read less impaired)

Are you certain that higher-functioning is the only issue here? Barkley seems to credit the current diagnosis criterion at least as much as who does and who doesn't self-present.

Regarding the threshold in one of Barkley's papers:

No age of onset criterion was specified for placement in this
ADHD group as the current age of onset criterion of 7 years inDSM–IV is invalid, having no scientific basis and resulting in more
than 35% of children and 50% of adults with ADHD going
undiagnosed though they meet all other criteria for the disorder
(Applegate et al., 1997; Barkley & Biederman, 1997; Barkley et
al., 2008).

You are also supposing that the undiagnosed are more likely to display emotional dysregulation. Has Barkley (or anyone else) actually stated that this is a common characteristic in the undiagnosed or are you just guessing?

[Peripheral]

Originally Posted by Drewbacca

How common is very common, quantitatively?


My issue is that it does not apply to me. I know many others with ADHD that it doesn't apply to. I also know many with ADHD that it does apply to.
So, given that there appears to be a large number of ADHD that do not share this quality, is it fair to say that it is an ADHD trait? Granted, it is more common in children who are diagnosed, since the squeaky wheel gets the oil, as they say.

It could be some sort of compounding of disorders, but I doubt that.
It could be environmental influence, characteristics that we learn from our parents... I haven't researched the issue enough though.
It could simply be that ADHD is a tent with a bunch of different disorders included, which is what I'm actually leaning towards.
It could also be situational as Amtram suggests...

My father is a door-slamming, hole punching type and he doesn't have ADHD.
I have ADHD but I don't tend to have emotional outbursts (although I do get annoyed really easily). Take that as you will, I'm not trying to define or pick apart the experience of anyone else. I'm simply putting my experience out there for others to consider.




Are you certain that higher-functioning is the only issue here? Barkley seems to credit the current diagnosis criterion at least as much as who does and who doesn't self-present.

Regarding the threshold in one of Barkley's papers:

No age of onset criterion was specified for placement in this
ADHD group as the current age of onset criterion of 7 years inDSM–IV is invalid, having no scientific basis and resulting in more
than 35% of children and 50% of adults with ADHD going
undiagnosed though they meet all other criteria for the disorder
(Applegate et al., 1997; Barkley & Biederman, 1997; Barkley et
al., 2008).

You are also supposing that the undiagnosed are more likely to display emotional dysregulation. Has Barkley (or anyone else) actually stated that this is a common characteristic in the undiagnosed or are you just guessing?

What exactly are we talking about in the post above?


The lack of neurological development,

of the emotional self regulation system?


Or the result of having a lack of emotional self regulation?



Any adult who punches holes,

has a lack of emotional self regulation.


But disassociation is also a result of emotional disregulation.


Over arousal and under arousal.

Hyperactivity and Inattention.

There is only one ADHD.

[Drewbacca]

Originally Posted by Geronimoo Back-Y-Rita

What exactly are we talking about in the post above?

From my perspective, it's just a discussion on categorization. What do we have in common and what don't we have in common. Sorta like the golf ball thing that I mentioned before, I'm just trying to play detective and get a better grasp of what the numbers mean.

I was considering your idea as one possible basis, but I wasn't stating a definitive opinion one way or the other.

[Amtram]

See, I think this is why he's aiming for a little more specificity in diagnosis, because if you're talking about ADHD and three different subtypes, then you are going to have a lot of differences in symptomology among individuals. I am another who doesn't have a real problem with certain types of self-regulation - I have a really long fuse, but when I finally blow, it's dangerous to everyone around me - and a lot of times I'll see questionnaires for ADHD and not check off entire blocks of answers. My presentation is definitely combined, but I simply have different aspects of each category than someone else might.

So I have plenty of types of dysregulation, but emotional is the least of my worries.