Origin of ADHD has everything to do with proper treatment.

[Fortune]

I mean, I did not come into this thread to attack you, but I do not foresee a future in which I am going to agree with the premise you want to discuss, so it is probably for the best if I try to avoid these threads and not even try to provide information or answer questions.

[Peripheral]

Okay, there is a difference between informally stating an opinion and formally presenting a rebuttal. I informally stated my opinion above when I explained why Barkley said that the DSM was useless, and elaborated on why I do not accept Mate's theories at face value.

I am not going to provide a long list of academic links in order to justify my informal opinion. If I have the energy and the interest, I may gather links for a more formal explanation as to where I think Mate is going wrong. However, I can't just produce a long list of links on demand, and I find it extremely frustrating to have my character and motivations called into question because I am not able to produce such things on demand.

I believed you about Barkley and subtypes and "useless".

It made sense.



A paragraph and a link.

That's all


Anyway it still seems all about destroying others credibility.

Without just cause.

Like yesterday when I lost my marbles.

I don't play the game very good,

when I play.

I am no better,

I am sure.

.

[Fortune]

I have been irritable and frustrated and suspect that my depression is becoming more intense (but I am not sure) and this messes with me cognitively. I am not trying to say I am not responsible for anything I posted, but more that it definitely impacts both my willingness and ability to do much research.

GBYR, I do like you and value your friendship. I am sorry I upset you. I am not sure what else to add here. I am having a bad weekend and I think yours isn't all that great either.

[Peripheral]

Originally Posted by Fortune

I have been irritable and frustrated and suspect that my depression is becoming more intense (but I am not sure) and this messes with me cognitively. I am not trying to say I am not responsible for anything I posted, but more that it definitely impacts both my willingness and ability to do much research.

GBYR, I do like you and value your friendship. I am sorry I upset you. I am not sure what else to add here. I am having a bad weekend and I think yours isn't all that great either.

I really value your friendship to Fortune.

I started this with you the other day.

When I missed the links you provided.

I was a buttox.

Things snowballed from there.

It's my fault.

The topics are heavy enough to shut down both of our brains.

I wish I could let them go sometimes.

But that doesn't seem to be an option.

Wish this all never happened.

I was pouting around here like a little boy.

I really should not even be aloud here,

I was totally out of line.

Love Consider.

[Peripheral]

I am going to try hard not to talk about this stuff around here anymore.

I understand not everyone is interested.

Someone recommend I try a blog or something.

I really don't want to upset people.

Good Night Fortune

[Drewbacca]

Originally Posted by Geronimoo Back-Y-Rita

I was a buttox.
Things snowballed from there.
It's my fault.
The topics are heavy enough to shut down both of our brains.
I wish I could let them go sometimes.
But that doesn't seem to be an option.
Wish this all never happened.
I was pouting around here like a little boy.
I really should not even be aloud here,
I was totally out of line.

We all do this from time to time; don't be so hard on yourself.


I hope that you realize that I was never writing off your ideas. Discouraging you from your passion is the last thing that I want to do. I appreciate your contributions GBYR, or I wouldn't bother to respond to them.

I'm sorry if anything that I've said has been viewed as a slight or disrespectful, as that was never my intent.

Be well.

[meadd823]

Geez I got more response to Gary's ideas using a sling shot and ice to hit cars with loud boom boxes than I did to a reference research. in this post .

Perhaps I needs to speak a little louder?

Prenatal Maternal Stress Associated with ADHD and Autistic Traits in early Childhood


In conclusion, this study suggests that PNMS, in the form of typical stressful life events such as divorce or a residential move, show a small but significant association with both autistic traits and ADHD behaviors independently, in offspring at age 2 years, after controlling for multiple antenatal, obstetric, postnatal, and sociodemographic covariates. This finding supports future research using epigenetic, cross-fostering, and gene–environment interaction designs to identify the causal processes underlying this association.


Maternal Prenatal Cortisol and Infant Cognitive Development: Moderation by Infant-Mother Attachment

These results provide a major translation and extension of the prenatal work in particular, and of the research into the biological impact of early rearing more generally. Equally important, they raise a fundamental conceptual-methodological point that research into biological mechanisms of risk and disorder for neuropsychiatric outcomes needs to attend to how early caregiving experiences may alter the unfolding of these processes. The effects of caregiving in moderating prenatal influence may vary with the nature of the prenatal risk. We previously demonstrated, in the case of fearfulness, that prenatal stress was exacerbated by an insecure/resistant attachment(52).

What have I learned?

That there may be some thing to the attachment theory and stress may have a negative impact on cognitive development.



Barkley adherents are no less dogmatic when his work is questioned than GBYR has been about Gobor Mate's work so there is little room for criticism when it comes to "pet biases"


If GBYR find Mates work useful or relevant then so be it however not every one is going to feel the same way. This in no way invalidates GBYR's point of view any more than my dislike for Barkley invalidates the perspective of those who find his work useful.

While the empirical method is the gold standard in research there is a grand canyon of difference between information presented in research findings and same findings becoming relevant to medical practice, and a world of difference between said research findings and meaningful application of any thing appreciable in the life of the average ADDer mainly me!

- For my money if I can not apply information in a way that improves my ability to deal with this crap shoot called life then all I have is brain candy. While candy taste good it is not a necessary part of my diet so if some one shoots a hole in my brain candy I can still live a happy well adjusted mental life.

Basically all we ever have is educated guesses which at any moment in time can be dismissed as ignorance by the ever increasing heap of "empirical evidence".


I have done nothing more than spend about an hour looking through the information presented in this thread and follow the leads and links provided to conclude that valid points are being made on all side of this issue.




I sit here and wonder wtf? Why would any one get upset about diversity in perspectives?

*** Remember our views reflect us and have little or nothing to do with other members in turn their views are a reflection of them having little or nothing to do with us ***

Emotional attachments to specific theories is an individual responsibility that we all must claim in and of ourselves. Other members have a right to express their views and in this section members have a right to challenge, question and down right disagree with any perspective made here {an exception may be informational purposes stated at the initial post but is voided if that same member then launches his / her own debate}


We each come from a different place and have different experiences and expectations so we are going to have difference of opinion, this should be no surprise.


If I post the time of day members from different time zones are going to disagree because they are having a different time experiences depending upon their location. Why would a disagreement as to the causes of ADHD be seen as a such a big deal? The causes of ADHD can not possibly be any closer to universally absolute absolute than time itself!

[Fortune]

I have not at any point said that ADHD is all genetics and not environmental.

Regarding that article about children showing ADHD and autistic traits, I pointed out that it's possible for neglected children to display stereotypies similar to autism, but they did not have autism.

[Drewbacca]

Originally Posted by Amtram

Well, I for one am not ready for them to open my skull and take slices out of my brain to check for this. It's all well and good to know this, but science has not reached the point yet where it can be tested on a living creature - or for the test subject to live subsequent to testing.

Well, you certainly flip-flopped on this one!

Again, wishing you a quick recovery!

[Drewbacca]

Originally Posted by meadd823

Geez I got more response to Gary's ideas using a sling shot and ice to hit cars with loud boom boxes than I did to a reference research.


What have I learned?

That there may be some thing to the attachment theory and stress may have a negative impact on cognitive development.

I don't think that the post was ignored, per se. If I disagreed with something in the studies, I would have commented. I think that most, if not all, of us are open to attachment theory and the role of stress in developmental disorders. In fact, I think it is a very important concept to research as it provides one possible explanation of the high number of ADHD cases. Perhaps the end of the nuclear family, a life in which both parents are working plays a role. The developmental stress, which can begin even before birth, doesn't even have to be some obvious stress such as alcohol or smoking; it can be a simple as a mother's infrequent touch or a father's depressive state.

Anyways, no one is denying the role of environmental stress. I think the real criticism is directed at the difficulty in proving such a link empirically. I personally believe that if the environment does play a role, then there is already a genetic predisposition to the disorder. An exception would be brain damage caused by substance abuse or some form of trauma (which wouldn't technically be ADHD?). If there is a genetic predisposition, it is almost impossible to determine if genetics or epigenetics is behind the causation. Mate's example is that adopted children are more likely to have ADHD b/c they lack the parental support during a key time during development. The problem with the scenario as he presents it, is that it doesn't control for the possibility that the disorder was in fact inherited; this was part of a different discussion in an older thread.

Speaking of other threads, I posted this elsewhere regarding the prenatal stress... although not ADHD specific it does mention "The neural part of these processes involves the myelination of the vagus nerve (the tenth cranial nerve) and the development of the frontal lobes that control not only how emotion is processed but also the executive functions of cognition (e.g. planning, organization, problem solving)." http://www.addforums.com/forums/show...77&postcount=5

[Peripheral]

Ice Cubes Eh.

Canada is a dangerous place to be.

Wait a minute.

Things could back fire.

The evidence might not melt?


Thanks

I agree that attachment might not be the factor in the cause of all cases,

Although I do think attachment and attunment are factors in all treatment.



Here is a really good explanation by Dr.Bruce Perry about anxiety disorders.

(Perry doesn't mention ADHD that I can remember?)


I do think Mate has a very similar view about ADHD, sensitivity,heredity...etc.



I am trying to stay away from these types of topics for a while.

I learned how easy some topics can get mixed up,

especially trying communicating on the internet.

(sorry again Fortune)

Its hard enough for me to communicate in person sometimes, (won't speak for anyone else)

.

Thanks everyone.



I think this information below ,

is good for a last post on the issues,

for awhile.

Might hang out in the addiction section?

There are thousandsof gene products which, if abnormal, could result in altered development or functioning of the many neurotransmitter and neuroanatomical regions involved in regulating anxiety. It should not be surprising that there are a number of studies suggesting a strong familial tendency for anxiety disorders(Turner, Beidel, & Costello. 1987; Harris, Noyes, Crowe, & Chaudery. 1983; Crowe, Noyes, Pauls, & et al. 1983; Cloninger, Martin, Clayton, & Guze. 1981; Berg. 1976). Within family heritability, however, need not translate into a common genetic vulnerability across families (Torgesen. 1983). Indeed, heritability need not even mean genetic. While promising, no clear genetic data exist to support specific genetic etiology of any of the childhood anxiety disorders.

(See full document below)
http://www.se-rj.com.br/.../0046Neur...yDisorders.doc

[Lunacie]

Originally Posted by meadd823

If GBYR find Mates work useful or relevant then so be it however not every one is going to feel the same way. This in no way invalidates GBYR's point of view any more than my dislike for Barkley invalidates the perspective of those who find his work useful.

That is the thing all of us need to remember.

When others disagree with us, it really doesn't impact our own beliefs ...

unless we let it.

I know before I post online that not everyone is going to agree with what I write.

That doesn't invalidate my personal beliefs and how they affect me.

I try to be open to questioning what I think I know.

I don't take it personally unless the other poster includes a clear personal attack.

[Drewbacca]

Originally Posted by Geronimoo Back-Y-Rita

I agree that attachment might not be the factor in the cause of all cases,

Although I do think attachment and attunment are factors in all treatment.

See! Now you are giving me something to work with.

Whereas before, my criticism was that Mate's point of view couldn't be verified (scientifically), per se... we can absolutely take some of those ideas for treatment and test the effectiveness of those treatment methods!

I think that every possible treatment method should be investigated to our full ability.

I'm working through your long thread on Gabor Mate, GBYR. It will probably take me a while. I'll come find you in the addiction section when I'm done.

Thanks.

[MindFlex]

Does anybody take protein shakes or use certain supplements instead of meds? I find that taking a protein shake in the morning compensates for most of my ADHD issues during the day

[Dizfriz]

Originally Posted by Geronimoo Back-Y-Rita

Although I do think attachment and attunment are factors in all treatment.

More than just factors, these along with ADHD specific parent training are some of the most powerful factors in the treatment of ADHD.

Without attachment and attunment, all the parent training in the world will do little good.

Take care,

Dizfriz